Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Yenny on August 08, 2008, 12:56:47 AM
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in stall fighting, if the opponent is just doing a flat turn and you're also trying to flap turn with him because you're right on his six. Is it better to engage wep, full flaps and ride edge of the stall? We're not talking about any other maneuver just flat turning.
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(don't make me regret this)
It really depends on other circumstances, are you in a 109k that has the E but you can't get your nose around? If so, a hi yo-yo/ lag displaced roll would be a better alternative.
Frankly, unless your turn rate/turn radius is better than other guy's, you should lose the fight.
It is alot like the way I handle zeros in my P38, I force them nose low on the merge to increase their G loading/increase the size of their turn circle, and I use the vertical to get my nose around faster. That said, if I can't get the vertical seperation I know I have 1-2 mindless revolutions before that zeke will have me.
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Sometimes it's best to chop throttle momentarily (or longer if needed) ... the (little) loss of speed will allow you to pull a little harder and bring the nose in more ... and then back on the throttle so as to not lose distance.
In the FM2 or the F6F, I am always fluctuating the throttle to try and get the most out of my turns in the situation that you have described.
If your always on WEP, in a turn, you can/will pull yourself off the best cornering speed for your plane.
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in stall fighting, if the opponent is just doing a flat turn and you're also trying to flap turn with him because you're right on his six. Is it better to engage wep, full flaps and ride edge of the stall? We're not talking about any other maneuver just flat turning.
as others said, it all depends on the circumstances.....
if you find yourself starting to "Flat Turn" with your opponent, stay with it only if you are gaining on your opponent.if you are at a stalemate, or fidn yourself starting to lose ground in the angles area, then you need to reassess and try a different approach ie....start high yo-yo ing to change up the turnrate or possibly try a low- yoy to gain some speed and cut the corner......
if you still can not gain angles, it is time to look for an exit strategy to break off and reset the fight......
depending on what speed you are flying/turning at, will dictate if you are at or near your corner speed or if you are at or close to your sustained turn speed best for the particular plane you are in
edit: btw....this is not considered stall fighting..this is called yank and bank :D
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Sometimes it's best to chop throttle momentarily (or longer if needed) ... the (little) loss of speed will allow you to pull a little harder and bring the nose in more ... and then back on the throttle so as to not lose distance.
In the FM2 or the F6F, I am always fluctuating the throttle to try and get the most out of my turns in the situation that you have described.
If your always on WEP, in a turn, you can/will pull yourself off the best cornering speed for your plane.
I mean if you're otd riding 90 knts scrimming the surface.
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I mean if you're otd riding 90 knts scrimming the surface.
as others said, it all depends on the circumstances.....
if you find yourself starting to "Flat Turn" with your opponent, stay with it only if you are gaining on your opponent.if you are at a stalemate, or fidn yourself starting to lose ground in the angles area, then you need to reassess and try a different approach ie....start high yo-yo ing to change up the turnrate or possibly try a low- yoy to gain some speed and cut the corner......
if you still can not gain angles, it is time to look for an exit strategy to break off and reset the fight......
depending on what speed you are flying/turning at, will dictate if you are at or near your corner speed or if you are at or close to your sustained turn speed best for the particular plane you are in
edit: btw....this is not considered stall fighting..this is called yank and bank :D
the same still applys.........regardless if you on the deck or at 10K alt or 20K alt........ and as Slapshot also mentioned, yes sometimes depending on the circumstances you might need to back off the throttle or turn off the wep to tighten up the turn..... or even drop the flaps ( what ever is needed to get the angles advantage )
again.if you find yourself not able to gain any angles or start to lose angles then exit the fight and extend and re-merge
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Sometimes it's best to chop throttle momentarily (or longer if needed) ... the (little) loss of speed will allow you to pull a little harder and bring the nose in more ... and then back on the throttle so as to not lose distance.
In the FM2 or the F6F, I am always fluctuating the throttle to try and get the most out of my turns in the situation that you have described.
If your always on WEP, in a turn, you can/will pull yourself off the best cornering speed for your plane.
i've found this to be true in the f6f and the 38. on occasion, if i'm nearly at a point to fire off a burst, if i drop throttle somewhat, the nose seems to come round quickly.....but only for a second or so, then i need to throttle back up.
i also find this to work well in the zekes, hurris, and spits.
but on his question, if i can't get a gun solution in a flat turn, i kick a slight amount of top rudder, and climb ever so slowly. ths seems to not affect my ability to keep him nearly in my sights, and it doesn't seem to bleed too much extra speed(especialy with WEP). i get a few hundred feet, and drop the nose. the increased speed lets me get inside.
if i miss, i go below slightly, and hopefully get another shot on the way back up.
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I've tried everything in this situation (WEP on, WEP off, flaps in, flaps out, etc.) and it seems to be plane/match-up dependent but as a general rule flaps in, WEP off, riding the front end of the buffet seems to be a good universal starting point to maximze turn rate then adjust from there.
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I've tried everything in this situation (WEP on, WEP off, flaps in, flaps out, etc.) and it seems to be plane/match-up dependent but as a general rule flaps in, WEP off, riding the front end of the buffet seems to be a good universal starting point to maximze turn rate then adjust from there.
i can do that in thew easy planes...the hurris the spits, zekes, hellkitty. i was trying to stall fight in TA in an f4u1c. i met the trees, the grass, the dirt, pretty much everything that can really ruin a good fight :rofl
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If you are talking about the 109k4 specifically then it is a fact that this plane can perform a constant E flat turn with all 4 flaps out and wep on. I have personally run down every plane in ah2 flying like this. The k4's power can simply muscle it around and maintain a constant airspeed of about 60 to 80 mph. I am not aware of any other plane that can perform a no altitude loss, constant air speed pure flat turn.
All the other planes will loose altitude during the flat turn but the k4 can keep its altitude in the turn without loosing it. You also need to tap the top rudder some to keep the nose stable but be very delicate with this or it will cause you rapid loss of air speed and you will drop out of the sky.
This particlular situation usually develops after you have successfully gained their six and are going to shoot them. Or they just cant get away because you are close but no guns. Typically the target will go into a simple flat turn in an attempt to out turn you or force you off their six by gaining angles.
I will only do this when I have basicly caught them. I have turned angles and run them out of energy. They are trapped by the deck and can only turn flat. Spit's for example just dont have enough power to get their nose up once the get very slow and if they did it would be a gun solution so the only option is a flat turn hoping to escape.
I must stress that the target must be out of energy and using flaps. IF they can strainten out and keep their distance and then start using the energy to make higher speed turns then you should not follow.
I often choose to follow into the flat turn at stalling speeds because I do not want them to gain any seperation, I am very close (200 or closer) and I sense they are about to stall out themselves. Often I can stay behind them like this until the stall and hit the ground or just loose so much E and can not sustain the turn and straiten out....then it's an easy tater shot.
There is a "magic spot" so to speak in the K4 where you can fly like this and have complete control. It is a combonation of aileron, elevator, rudder and throttle all working together while pulling maximum angle of attack.
Disclaimer: attempting to get guns chasing a better turn rate plane in a k4 like this will likly get you killed. It is not the smartest choice especially if you have other options like an exit or airspeed for a yo-yo. I am not recommending this as a regular tactic to employ. It is for very experienced k4 drivers who have perfected flying the plane at extremly slow speeds and have proficient skill in using the throttle and rudder.
Agent360
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Sometimes it's best to chop throttle momentarily (or longer if needed) ... the (little) loss of speed will allow you to pull a little harder and bring the nose in more ... and then back on the throttle so as to not lose distance.
In the FM2 or the F6F, I am always fluctuating the throttle to try and get the most out of my turns in the situation that you have described.
If your always on WEP, in a turn, you can/will pull yourself off the best cornering speed for your plane.
The best cornering speed for the F6F is in the 235-240 mph range while clean. When turning hard with flaps out, you will never be able to get near that speed, especially in sustained turning. Reducing power in those circumstances will slow your turn rate and INCREASE your turn radius due to having less thrust to keep your nose up without reducing bank angle.
You can test this with a stopwatch. Using WEP and full flaps, establish the best turn you can, riding the stall horn. Time three complete turns and note your typical speed via E6B. Shut off WEP and time three more complete turns. Note the typical speed with E6B again. The reduction of speed and increase of time will be apparent.
Inasmuch as turn rate is often more important than turn radius, you will want all the power you have available.
My regards,
Widewing
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If you are talking about the 109k4 specifically then it is a fact that this plane can perform a constant E flat turn with all 4 flaps out and wep on. I have personally run down every plane in ah2 flying like this. The k4's power can simply muscle it around and maintain a constant airspeed of about 60 to 80 mph. I am not aware of any other plane that can perform a no altitude loss, constant air speed pure flat turn.
All the other planes will loose altitude during the flat turn but the k4 can keep its altitude in the turn without loosing it. You also need to tap the top rudder some to keep the nose stable but be very delicate with this or it will cause you rapid loss of air speed and you will drop out of the sky.
Agent, I'm going to suggest that you try this offline, with E6B open the whole time. You will find that your air speed is much higher than 80 mph, probably in the range of 115 mph.
MA comparisons invariably are greatly effected by the inability of the vast majority of pilots to get the best turn performance out of their aircraft. If, for example, you are chasing a Spit8 which pulls into a constant left turn, but panics when the stall horn so much as hints at noise, you will out turn him every time.
However, if the Spit pilot is a good stick, he will reef the Spit around hard and turn on WEP. If you try to stay in that circle with a 109K-4, the Spit will fly around the circle and be on your six in less than 4 full turns.
I will also state that every other 109 will turn smaller circles than a K-4 and do it at lower speeds. Indeed, the 109G-2 doesn't need more than a notch or two of flaps to out-turn the K-4, even if the K-4 has full flaps out. That's in left-hand turns. In right-hand turns, the K-4 suffers worse from torque than the G-2 and it's even easier for the G-2 to gain on it.
Of course, seeing is believing, so stop by the TA any evening mid week (after 9 PM Eastern) and we can do a demonstration.
Where the 109s do well is in turn rate. An example is the 109F vs the F4U-1. The Corsair turns smaller circles, but the 109F has a faster turn rate and can hang onto the F4U like glue.
All of the above aside, whatever you are doing is obviously a great success, and nothing succeeds like success.
My regards,
Widewing
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usualy especialy in spits when im turning against inferior planes i will pull jsut barely into buffet and then back off the turn a little and try to ride it as close as i can.
question though, when you get super slow in the spitfires does it help turn rate at all to use the single flap stage? normaly i only use them over the top or when roping.
or is it better to just conserve that E?
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Widewing, what where you saying in the TA a few weeks ago about how to get the best possible turn? It had something to do with rudder input/lack of input...
It sounded interesting, but I had my stallhorn blaring while you were talking to that guy about it, and couldn't catch it all. This seems like a pretty good time to ask for a refresher :)
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usualy especialy in spits when im turning against inferior planes i will pull jsut barely into buffet and then back off the turn a little and try to ride it as close as i can.
question though, when you get super slow in the spitfires does it help turn rate at all to use the single flap stage? normaly i only use them over the top or when roping.
or is it better to just conserve that E?
When it comes to getting to minimum turn radius, if you're plane is not shaking and the stall horn blaring, you not there....
Spitfire flaps do tighten turns, at the expense of eating up speed. You can using them to get an angle, but I would not keep them out for any longer than that. Also, flap use at high angles of attack increase the risk of the Spit entering a flat spin/stall that is very difficult to recover from if you are low. You best bet is to kill the engine (not just cut throttle), get the nose down and restart.
My regards,
Widewing
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Widewing, what where you saying in the TA a few weeks ago about how to get the best possible turn? It had something to do with rudder input/lack of input...
It sounded interesting, but I had my stallhorn blaring while you were talking to that guy about it, and couldn't catch it all. This seems like a pretty good time to ask for a refresher :)
When attempting to turn at the absolute limit down low, any rudder input can be tricky. If you add rudder into the turn to center the ball, you push the nose lower. That means using aileron to counter, which rolls you out of the turn. If you add top rudder to keep the nose higher (cross controlling), you also tend to roll out of the turn and create drag by crabbing the aircraft.
I don't touch the rudder during a minimum radius turn or lufbery, except briefly to counter partial stalling of the inside wing (wing dip). Some aircraft will develop a slight porpoising motion when right on the edge. This IS the absolute limit. F4Us do this. If you can hold it in that porpoising motion, you can achieve the true minimum turn radius. I believe that this is the point where the wing is beginning to stall, causing the aircraft to mush out, increasing speed, which allows it to tighten again. It will repeat the cycle forever if you can hold it right there..
My regards,
Widewing
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Jumping in late after not reading the 2nd page...
what they all said....
but additionally, if you're more on less *temporarily* "catching up" and depending on your respective planes' acceleration potential, and factoring in favorable terrain, i.e., downhill, you just might be able to break out and with a proper opposite turn might even surprise the other guy...
really depends on which plane matchup(s) you're referring to, and respective pilot skills. if this has been addressed... what they said...
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Agent, I'm going to suggest that you try this offline, with E6B open the whole time. You will find that your air speed is much higher than 80 mph, probably in the range of 115 mph.
MA comparisons invariably are greatly effected by the inability of the vast majority of pilots to get the best turn performance out of their aircraft. If, for example, you are chasing a Spit8 which pulls into a constant left turn, but panics when the stall horn so much as hints at noise, you will out turn him every time.
However, if the Spit pilot is a good stick, he will reef the Spit around hard and turn on WEP. If you try to stay in that circle with a 109K-4, the Spit will fly around the circle and be on your six in less than 4 full turns.
I will also state that every other 109 will turn smaller circles than a K-4 and do it at lower speeds. Indeed, the 109G-2 doesn't need more than a notch or two of flaps to out-turn the K-4, even if the K-4 has full flaps out. That's in left-hand turns. In right-hand turns, the K-4 suffers worse from torque than the G-2 and it's even easier for the G-2 to gain on it.
Of course, seeing is believing, so stop by the TA any evening mid week (after 9 PM Eastern) and we can do a demonstration.
Where the 109s do well is in turn rate. An example is the 109F vs the F4U-1. The Corsair turns smaller circles, but the 109F has a faster turn rate and can hang onto the F4U like glue.
All of the above aside, whatever you are doing is obviously a great success, and nothing succeeds like success.
My regards,
Widewing
Sorry for the war and piece novel but I can't really further explain wihout a lot of words. Sorry.
Widewing,
You are right on with everything said here. As far as the airspeed goes your right to a certain point. But I have been in turns as slow as 50 mph like this. But only because the target is getting that slow. Some will cut throttle hoping for an overshoot in the flat turn and when this happens I do as well. A very controlled small yo-yo can keep me there at these speeds as the K4 can still climb when the spitty can't atleast not without giving me a kill shot.
I am only speaking about the 109k4 specifically.
I knew when I made my post that I would get some diagreement. HEHEHE.
How one enters this turn is important. Just diving in and attempting this kind of turn in a k4 won't work. One has to "get there" in other ways. Mainly after a 1v1 merge. The fight ensues. Angles are gained in the verticle. We turn close. A few gun passes happen. The spitty makes a mistake trying to make a gun solution in the vert and cant make it. I then turn this mistake into a "i got your six and you can't get away" situation. At this point we are very slow on the deck with me inside 200 perhaps even inside 100 but can not bring guns onto the turning spit. Usually it happens that I come out of the verticle roll after stalling at the top and chase the spit down into a hard breaking left hand turn. I am able to catch the spit coming down but he can not get away because I am faster at this point ( in the 200 mph range). I usually have to cut throttle some here because I am nose down. My goal is to get slow enough to drop all the flaps and keep wep on. By now I am closing fast on the spit and he is now breaking hard to left.
The situation is now primed for this kind of turn. It is important to note that I must be very very close. Inside 200 and pulling pure pursuit (gun sight on target) but can't pull enough lead for a hit. But I am very close. The spit has no options now. If he does anything besides keeping out of my guns its going to be a kill shot.
At the point where I am coming down and tracking for a shot I have alt over the spit by a few hundred feet. This allows me to keep faster but below 200 so I can get flaps out. This is allowing me to gain angles and get inside his turn by only a small amount. If I go for guns now and miss then the spit can easily reverse me so I don't do that. I stay behind him patiently waiting for the nose dip which will force him out of the hard turn and make him loosen it some.
If anything happens to cause me to loose this position like a wing stall or terrain then the spit will get angles immediatly and I will have to go vert.
The key thing is catching the spit slow and forcing a hard stalling turn to the left (keeping everything left for explanation but I can do it to the right as well). In fact its a little easier to the right because the torque doesn't keep pulling the nose down and I dont have to use rudder so much.
Although the spit does technically have a better turn radious that doesnt end the story. The K4 has the pure beastly power to still maneuver here.
Ok, now I have this little spitty all out of E stalling in the turn and struggling to keep the nose up to prevent hitting the ground. He is just pulling as hard as possible with me so close I could chop off his tail with my prop but can't get the lead for the shot.
I now have all flaps out with wep on and we are now in a totally flat turn. The spitty is just turning hard trying to stay out of my guns.
If I maintain perfect control of my plane without any wing dips I can stay with the spitty almost indefinitly. But after about the third rotation the spitty always has to roll out a few degrees to keep from hitting the ground. When this happens it gives me the angle to pull the lead and make the shot. During the tail chase I must keep my plane at least a full wing span ABOVE the spitty. I can not get totally even. This is to say I need to be about 15 degress angle off HIS tail to the top. Any dropping below his tail will put me into an overshoot situation and allow the spitty to reverse and get out of the guns solutions.
The KEY is the airspeed in which we enter the flat turn. IF the spitty is not totally out of E and can maintain speed I can only stay here for mabey one reveloution before he starts gaining my six.
It is the pure power of the K4 that allows me to fly with all flaps out and still keep up and stay with the spit. In contrast if you try this in a G2 you won't have the airspeed or power to do this. YOu will have a better turn with the G2 but that aint gonna cut it if its a spit 16. 109's have a lot of WEP. I would say that when I do get into the flat turns their wep is gone. If they have wep left and I am not close enough then it could go either way depending on my closure rate.
One final note with regards to airspeed in this scenario. I can and do fly like this at 60 to 80 mph. But this is because I am tapping the rudder and at times side slipping some while riding the nose high to keep the angle off tail I will need later for the shot. So I am flying the plane "dirty" on purpose to reduce the airspeed further but only in relation to my target. I will correct my flight path as needed depending on how tight the turn is getting.
Also any slight hills or trees that get in the spittys way will cause him to alter the flat turn and again this is when the kill shot comes.
In regards to "Ace sticks". At one point or another my squaddies have taken me up on the flat turn challenge and I have stayed behind them. This was more of a test of turning skills then a fight. But fighting really good sticks like this wont't work to well unless you just have there six with absolutly no enery. Most good stick just won't let you get them in this situation to start with.
Agent360
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O.o Damn Agent, that's a long post! You must be bored at work like me :lol
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if it's the 109k.. then an option would be to use it's accel and ability to vert....
if you're in the chase angle, what you could consider doing if you have the confidence and ability is to pull up into a slow speed "1/2" loop/stall (or slow speed hammerhead if that explains it better), in which the other guy might not be able to follow, and drop back on top...
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But fighting really good sticks like this wont't work to well unless you just have there six with absolutly no enery. Most good stick just won't let you get them in this situation to start with.
I'm glad you added that part because I was going to say I didn't remember it working like that. ;)
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Widewing I stand corrected on the airspeed. I just did a few tests witht the k4 and the e6b open.
I am not sure if my stick is perfectly calibrated. At times it seems to do better than others.
But I found you are right. The airpspeed in a all flaps wep on stalling turn is at 100 to 115 ( 50% fuel at sea level) and if you have wep on it won't get any slower than 100 no matter what. You can reduce trottle to half or so and get it to 85 -90 ish but you start dropping at 4000+ f/m.
The K4 flying strait with all flaps out at sea level: about 85 to 90 is required to keep airborn without loosing alt. If the plane drops below this you can not maintain level flight. At 50 mph the plane lands.
The only think I can think of to explain my previous experiences is that I was really in a very slow and shallow spiral to the ground and slipping the plane around. With a few K of alt it is possible to get to 80 without crashing but you will be dropping alt at about 3000 f/m
I tried to fly the plane at 50 in a shallow spiral dive but the plane will not get any slower than 90 no matter what you do even with the throttle on but at 0 and full rudder.
I suppose I have been doing smaller yo-yo type reversals in the vert and and really flying at 80 ish. It looks like 50 in the cock pit.
I think is the scenario I described above the entry speed into the turn is probably just under 200 and this slowly degrades to 90 until one of the two must go level. If I can stay behind until that happens then it works.
I will also say that when I first started getting better in the K4 I could get people like this. But in the past year it has been increasingly difficult to do so. I think u trainers are giving up the anti K4 tricks ...heheheheh
:salute
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Widewing I stand corrected on the airspeed. I just did a few tests witht the k4 and the e6b open.
I am not sure if my stick is perfectly calibrated. At times it seems to do better than others.
But I found you are right. The airpspeed in a all flaps wep on stalling turn is at 100 to 115 ( 50% fuel at sea level) and if you have wep on it won't get any slower than 100 no matter what. You can reduce trottle to half or so and get it to 85 -90 ish but you start dropping at 4000+ f/m.
The K4 flying strait with all flaps out at sea level: about 85 to 90 is required to keep airborn without loosing alt. If the plane drops below this you can not maintain level flight. At 50 mph the plane lands.
The only think I can think of to explain my previous experiences is that I was really in a very slow and shallow spiral to the ground and slipping the plane around. With a few K of alt it is possible to get to 80 without crashing but you will be dropping alt at about 3000 f/m
I tried to fly the plane at 50 in a shallow spiral dive but the plane will not get any slower than 90 no matter what you do even with the throttle on but at 0 and full rudder.
I suppose I have been doing smaller yo-yo type reversals in the vert and and really flying at 80 ish. It looks like 50 in the cock pit.
I think is the scenario I described above the entry speed into the turn is probably just under 200 and this slowly degrades to 90 until one of the two must go level. If I can stay behind until that happens then it works.
I will also say that when I first started getting better in the K4 I could get people like this. But in the past year it has been increasingly difficult to do so. I think u trainers are giving up the anti K4 tricks ...heheheheh
:salute
i dunno man maybe your just slumping as i said to you earlier. but you have seemed easier to kill lately <S> or maybe im just catching you at bad times eh ?
maybe its all the help your giving the newbs? lol :D
ill fly ya anytime <S>
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When it comes to getting to minimum turn radius, if you're plane is not shaking and the stall horn blaring, you not there....
Spitfire flaps do tighten turns, at the expense of eating up speed. You can using them to get an angle, but I would not keep them out for any longer than that. Also, flap use at high angles of attack increase the risk of the Spit entering a flat spin/stall that is very difficult to recover from if you are low. You best bet is to kill the engine (not just cut throttle), get the nose down and restart.
My regards,
Widewing
yes i find cutting the engine very helpful in getting out of those spins, the ones i really hate are the inverted tumbling spins that i have to really fight to get fliped over right side and then fight to get the nose down. about 1/4 of the time with enough alt i can recover.
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i guess what i was trying to hint at, well a small question. say your in a superior turning plane and you know that the other guy is blowing energy trying to haul around his crate, would it be smart to kind of back off maybe let him catch some angle on you while you build speed to go vertical? this meaning its close but not that close that he can get you. maybe go vertical and drop on his head if he tries to follow?
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i guess what i was trying to hint at, well a small question. say your in a superior turning plane and you know that the other guy is blowing energy trying to haul around his crate, would it be smart to kind of back off maybe let him catch some angle on you while you build speed to go vertical? this meaning its close but not that close that he can get you. maybe go vertical and drop on his head if he tries to follow?
If you're the better turning plane then you can just stay in the circle and outrate him but it takes time and you're very predictable so unless you're sure it's just the two of you or you have good cover from a wingman then time to kill becomes very important.
What you're suggesting here can be a very good tactic given the right combination of planes, i.e., considering the acceleration and climb rate of both. You also point out one of the key measures of comparative E. Generally speaking, more angles equal less E as E is burned to generate the angles. Conversely less angles equals greater E and that's what you're suggesting. All fights are about these sorts of tradeoffs.
The way to do this is to ease your G slightly and raise your flaps, usually a notch at a time. He will continue to gain angles on you without realizing that you're gaining an E advantage on him. You don't want him to recognize what you're doing until the next step. When you're clean, level your wings, make sure you're in WEP and lower your nose to get your best acceleration to climb speed and climb away. If you're going to do this then it's best to do it early rather than wait until your opponent is behind your wingline approaching guns as his bullets accelerate faster than you will. Doing this early also means he has more degrees to go before he can bring his guns up and that equals greater separation and acceleration for you. Also, if the terrain is not flat than time your turn so that you're headed downhill while he's headed up.
Also, another caviat is that this won't work if your significantly outmatched by your bandit's acceleration and/or climb performance. For instance if you're in a Hurri flat turning with a Zeke you will not out accelerate or outclimb him and he will just chew you up. Of course, a continued flat flight will end up with his teeth in you anyway so something like this might be your only option. In this sort of situation and very early in the fight (say within the first two turns and before he gets behind your wingline) I'd raise the flaps and dump the nose, and get enough speed to try to turn the fight into a series of high and low yo-yos. Yo-yos are the only way you're going to outrate a Zeke.
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excelent exactly what i was lookin for