Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: infowars on August 15, 2008, 12:16:10 PM
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So if you anyone sees me on their 6 please don't stir your stick, I have a hard enough time shooting you anyway. I appreciate your compliance... lol :(
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:noid
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So what, their supposed to take it and just die? I have had some of those guys in my sights and then they have stock stirred their way out of it. All is fair in love, war and AH2. :D
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So what, their supposed to take it and just die? I have had some of those guys in my sights and then they have stock stirred their way out of it. All is fair in love, war and AH2. :D
True stick stirring is not "fair". It's a gamey tactic that takes advantage of the fact that we must use the internet and its' inherent shortcomings to play the game.
That said, stick stirrers are usually not hard to kill. One just slows down a bit and plucks them.
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That said, stick stirrers are usually not hard to kill. One just slows down a bit and plucks them.
And then runs out of ammo or gets picked by the second D9 coming in :O
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Man I had a film of someone in a Yak stick stirring I wish i wouldnt have deleted it :( wait it was LtPappy i think his name was, more like Ltcrappy :rofl
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Yeah that really sucks, I don't get very many kills and when I finally get down d200 he starts flopping around I waste all my ammo and I get picked... Story of my life.
So what, their supposed to take it and just die? I have had some of those guys in my sights and then they have stock stirred their way out of it. All is fair in love, war and AH2. :D
I don't let people kill me but I don't stir my stick either. Seems to me kind of like cheating...
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Please clarify for me what is stick stirring?
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Please clarify for me what is stick stirring?
Instead of a normal evasive which may result in the enemy denying you a guns solution and surviving to live some more, he acts like he's having a seizure and the plane flips out at D200, staying within guns range but being completely unpredictable and difficult to hit, making you waste tons of ammo and E to get the kill. Personally if I get in a situation where someone would stick stir I usually try to snap roll to GTFO, which even occasionally works.
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Stick stirring according to websters dictionary is "when someone is on your six and you have exhaust all of your acm ideas and death in imminent you start yanking your stick (he he) all over the place and causes your plane to flop around like a fish out of water" makes it almost impossible to get a clean shot off.
People who don't do this choose not to because in a real situation your eyes would pop out of your head...
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heheh stickstirring just serves to remind us all that is a CARTOON game, those of us that like to think of it as trying to relive history (because HTC has done such a good job of providing that feeling) really frown on it because it is to say the least "gamey" and could NOT be done in a real aircraft.
That all said, it is still an internet game and those that understand it well will take advantage to win in tough situations, hence we all distain the "score" system because it only records results and NOT how those results were obtained.
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those that understand it well will take advantage to win in tough situations,
Wrong, they never win. They just make you waste your ammo and may give the opportunity to their friends to pick you. But they do not win. They just die, without a fight. That is why people don't like stick stirring. Not because we are trying to re leave WWII. It is because we just don;t understand why someone chooses to go down (or win in other cases) without a fight. You get on my six, and you have put your self in a very dangerous situation. If you win, you probably had fun because you managed to win a difficult fight. If I start stick steering, I lose the fight and you lost your time.
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Net lag and/or sub-optimal frame rates can combine to make planes look like they are flying along straight, then "snapping" instantly into a 90 degree turn, then "snapping" into a nosedive, etc.
Without the limitations of the internet and computers, you would perceive what their plane is doing the as logical, fluid motion and stick stirring would not be an issue.
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I tried the stick stir once....in a 190...operative word was..."disaster". They don't like being jerked too much. I guess the most effective stick stirrers I have seen are the p38s.
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I tried the stick stir once....in a 190...operative word was..."disaster". They don't like being jerked too much. I guess the most effective stick stirrers I have seen are the p38s.
every plane can do it. The 190 however, was made for it :lol
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Porn stirs my stick
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every plane can do it. The 190 however, was made for it :lol
Actually, I find the most difficult to hit stick stirring to uses more the pitch rather than the roll axis. A flat scissors type action from a 190 isn't all that hard to counter and "time" for hits.
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Hee hee - the "Don't move your controls so much" seems to mitigate it to a great extent in AH as compared to other combat sims I've flown. You should have seen what a warp-rolling 190 looked like in WB's 2.x...
<S>
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For me the 190 rolls so fast its as if my pc doesnt recognize it quick enuff and its all spazzy.
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The absolute worst example I have seen of stick stirring is a dedicated 190D9 pilot that cannot fight to save his life yet insists on chasing people down and then depending on the stick stir to escape. I have slowed down to await a good opening to shoot him only to have the first guy that comes along jump in to try and finish the situation. I went looking for the film of our last encounter but it doesnt look as if I filmed it (too bad). Starts with 10k advantage first pass then runs and regrabs to reengage while his bomber buddy loses three planes then jumps in again and then runs and then chases me when I am down to 47 bullets. I equalize our energy and then turn on him where he panics when I am on his six and starts to roll like crazy followed by a hard turn and then more rolls (repeating over and over) until I am 50 yards away with nearly all my flaps out and shoot his cockpit. A Spit 16 enters the fight and gets hit once in the tail so Im out of ammo and then the Spit augers and the 190D9 finally bleeds to death. This kind of gaming only makes things worse for you.
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The absolute worst example I have seen of stick stirring is a dedicated 190D9 pilot that cannot fight to save his life
No dedicated 190D9 pilot can. That is why they are dedicated to the D9. They just blame the plane for it and call yours easy mode :D
Key Word = Dedicated
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While stick stirring is used by a few, I do think that a lot are confusing this with snap rolls.
The other day while I was in the MW, I was bounced by a higher con. I waited until they were within d1.0 when I stomped full left rudder and then pushed my stick forward and to the right. This caused me to go into a snap roll and I then released my controls, recovered after a half spin and got the kill on the over shoot. The immediately afterwards, I get a PM calling me a 'stick stirring POS' and other comments about my lack of skill and gaming the game.
ack-ack
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Well thats cool, but it appears that some do about 30 snap rolls while I'm unloading all my ammo. Snap rolls in my opinion are obvious, as stirring is also obvious.
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Let them stick stir, it doesn't gain them any advantage to do so. If they are trying to force an overshoot, it's a rather crappy way of doing it. Just aim for the center and fire, you'll hit them the majority of the time.
ack-ack
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So if you anyone sees me on their 6 please don't stir your stick....
I'm such a bad shot the only chance I have to hit anything is if they do 'stir the stick'. By 'stirring the stick' they sometimes run into my bullets.
(http://smilies.vidahost.com/otn/violent/awing.gif)
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I like kittens, so it all evens out.
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Stir away noob squeeker. I'll still get ya.
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The only time i've been accused of "stick stirring" is when i fly the il-2.
The funny part is i only get accused of this when a con blows past with
a speed advantage, gets lazy on their overshoot, and i blow the high
priced speed demon to little iddy biddy pieces. :O
Have you ever tried to bleed off speed in a c47? It has excellent rudder
and elevator authority similar to the il-2 IMO. If you are familiar with high
speed approach landings in c47s, the moves you pull to slow down ASAP,
are very similar to the ones(which if pulled) will lead to accusations of
"stick stirrer!!!" on 200.
While i am happy to attempt to dogfight in my il-2, i will continue to use
a quick negative G + hard alternate rudder move when the situation warrants.
If you feel the "il-2 can't do that", i suggest you complain to HTC about the flight model.
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Would pulling past the shakes to tumble out from in front of a bandit up your tail be considered stick stirring? More than a snaproll but not an easy move if your motive is to recover fast and stay engaged (the stick stirring throttle pumping part -lol-).
But even done as a desperate move to fall out of a fight, would a real-world pilot not have done this stunt pilot move as a last resort if he thought he was about to die? Is this really a violent maneuver? You tumble skid and spin, but it happens at near stall speeds. Edit: ...or 0 speed.
.
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Net lag and/or sub-optimal frame rates can combine to make planes look like they are flying along straight, then "snapping" instantly into a 90 degree turn, then "snapping" into a nosedive, etc.
Without the limitations of the internet and computers, you would perceive what their plane is doing the as logical, fluid motion and stick stirring would not be an issue.
Some years back, in AH1, it was possible to create this effect in a 190 by rapidly moving your stick around. HTC fixed it a LONG time ago, but the legend remains, and people are still accused of "stick-stirring." As BnZ says, what you're actually seeing is a result of your target's bad connection, not a deliberate misuse of weak coding.
- oldman (see also "Cable Pulling")
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Stick stirring, I refer to that as "Having a Stroke" flying :furious
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i was accused of "stick stirring" when i was engaged with a crap load of cons 5+ cant quite remember, point is they couldn't shoot me down, so of course i was "stick stirring"
whats funny is, on my return trip the same guy that was runnin his yap, hunts me down in my Hurri, we spot each other i have about a 1k Alt advantage, he types something like "come for your schooling?" i de-throttle and nose over, he climbs up,i drop down neither of us go for the Ho but, in about 15 seconds, he exploded quite nicely. :lol
give me a schooling? i <S> him but got no response
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negative G is stick stirring.
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negative G is stick stirring.
Nose down is stick stirring? pffffff
Surely you jest.
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Anything that isn't flying straight and level, and causes me to miss the shot, is stick stirring.
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cant stand the bastages :t :devil
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This guy is not stick stirring:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCZnQP6Yw-0
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Anything that isn't flying straight and level, and causes me to miss the shot, is stick stirring.
It's your lazy eye that makes it look like their stick stirring.
ack-ack
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I will stand by my statement that it is rapid oscillations in the pitch, mostly utilized with only minor roll inputs, which make for truly annoying stick stirring. Especially considering that rapidly alternating positive and negative G loads can be induced without pain. In contrast, a rapid flat scissors by a quick rolling plane, keeping the Gs positive, is not as frustrating to counter and hit, and more importantly, is not as physically dubious as the "porpoising" act. Thus both the 190 and Spit16 are getting a bad rap here for something I've seen every plane do effectively.
I latched onto a Tempest last night in a Dora9. Horrible roll rate, but the pilot stick stirred it, and as I say, the pitch axis is the important one. Took the rest of my cannon to shoot down the bugger, unfortunately. Humorous part-Tempest vs. 190, he could have turned right, he could have turned left, could have split-s'ed, could have looped,could have WEPed and dived...all would have been a better solution for defeating the gun solution of a 190 than simply twitching about in front of a plane with cannons to burn.
No dedicated 190D9 pilot can. That is why they are dedicated to the D9. They just blame the plane for it and call yours easy mode :D
Key Word = Dedicated
Sir, it IS possible at least occasionally to use intelligent ACM and a thrust-to-weight advantage to counter a maneuverability advantage on the part of the opposition...
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I will stand by my statement that it is rapid oscillations in the pitch, mostly utilized with only minor roll inputs, which make for truly annoying stick stirring. Especially considering that rapidly alternating positive and negative G loads can be induced without pain. In contrast, a rapid flat scissors by a quick rolling plane, keeping the Gs positive, is not as frustrating to counter and hit, and more importantly, is not as physically dubious as the "porpoising" act. Thus both the 190 and Spit16 are getting a bad rap here for something I've seen every plane do effectively.
You have described it perfectly ... most that use the "land trout" defense, would have gone blind as a result of their maneuvers.
The 190 gets the bad rap due to the fact that there are very few that really know how to fight in the 190 and only know the "pick and run" strategy. Once cornered, to where they can't use the "run" part of their strategy, they have exhausted their BFM/ACM knowledge and need to rely on the "land trout" defense.
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Some years back, in AH1, it was possible to create this effect in a 190 by rapidly moving your stick around. HTC fixed it a LONG time ago, but the legend remains, and people are still accused of "stick-stirring." As BnZ says, what you're actually seeing is a result of your target's bad connection, not a deliberate misuse of weak coding.
- oldman (see also "Cable Pulling")
Hey, do you want to see the legend in action? Stop in the DA and go in the cherry pick lake. Find a 190 and get on his 6 (if you can catch him). Turn film on and injoy
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Sir, it IS possible at least occasionally to use intelligent ACM and a thrust-to-weight advantage to counter a maneuverability advantage on the part of the opposition...
True. Just saying that most 190s I encounter will make a pass or two and they are out of there. The excuse is always that the plane makes them fly that way.
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Ive seen 190s flown very well. Most of all A5s but I even saw a guy fly a 152 very well down low. The few times Ive flown them they struck me as Jug-like in their roll rate, I think it was the D-9 we took up, and it felt very responsive, built speed quickly, and kept speed up quickly. It struck me as a "slasher" like a lot of the Yank plane set I normally spend almost all my time in.
And 90% of the times I see 190s lately its, "See FW-run90, see run-90 HO, see run-90 run, see run-90". Which is kinda a shame and kinda makes me think a lot of the talent has left that fighter and gone on to other airplanes. I seem to see a lot more talent in 109s now then 190s.
Maybe I'll spend a little time in it in the future. A "stick stirrer" is pretty obvious. If theres ever a question about it just go into the TA, turn film on, and then jerk the stick in every which way that would be impossable in real life. I'd rather learn legitamate tactics to shake a con off my 6, and learn lessons if I get shot down. Lately Ive had a lot of luck pointing into the sun and bringing it right to stall.
What kinda skills are you learning by shaking your stick all over the place?
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"See FW-run90, see run-90 HO, see run-90 run, see run-90".
Ironic, because the Dora9 is quite possibly the worst plane to HO in imaginable. That radiator goes out if you look at it.
190s lack of turn capacity is a huge handicap, I won't lie. But yeah, it is possible to do SOMETHING in them if the opponent is willing to fight you at ~300mph IAS or beyond, where the 190 maneuvers as well or better than most.
Running-I'll run if I HAVE to. Its not having to run that is the goal though.
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At what point does a last ditch violent "out of plane" desperation jink maneuver or intentional stall become a "stick stir" ?
BTW it was a valid and often used last ditch maneuver in WWII - with surviving pilots coming back home seriously wounded from the G-Forces.
I personally don't have a problem with it - I shoot down the middle and usually kill the bastage, however it will kill your accuracy % score, so I suppose it upsets the scoreadonnas.
Maybe if people complain loud enough, HTC can model it so that stick stirring gives a pilot wound (G Force damage to the body). I wouldn't care either way.
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Ironic, because the Dora9 is quite possibly the worst plane to HO in imaginable. That radiator goes out if you look at it.
190s lack of turn capacity is a huge handicap, I won't lie. But yeah, it is possible to do SOMETHING in them if the opponent is willing to fight you at ~300mph IAS or beyond, where the 190 maneuvers as well or better than most.
Running-I'll run if I HAVE to. Its not having to run that is the goal though.
Help me please. You are saying it cant fight, cant HO, can maybe do something at very high speeds, so, really, what is the intent of flying it? Vulch and run? Pick and run? :huh
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I tried that in a Lancaster once after a nasty mission & watched the *****""' wings come off. :noid :furious
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Maybe if people complain loud enough, HTC can model it so that stick stirring gives a pilot wound (G Force damage to the body). I wouldn't care either way.
It's the negative G's that need to addressed. Right now, you can go full redout and fully recover in a second. That ranks near the top of my list for "unrealistic." There are some people who make the neg-g turn their first choice for defensive acm, e.g. roll to the right, push forward on the stick to execute a left hand turn, don't mind the redout. Against some pilots I've learned that if they roll right to counter my attack, I roll left and nail them as they redout.
Ironic, because the Dora9 is quite possibly the worst plane to HO in imaginable. That radiator goes out if you look at it.
Same goes for the P-51 but I see P-51s try to HO all of the time when they fail to set up a proper guns pass. :rolleyes:
As for the 190D-9, it's supposed to be flown with a wingman. WWII aircraft were not designed with 1vs1 in mind. That's why they became faster, heavier, more armored, with better firepower, better roll-rate, etc. Trying to fly aircraft with these attributes in a place where only 1vs1 gets respect will win little popularity if you don't give others a chance to shoot you, i.e. play their game, for the sake of being a good sport.
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It's the negative G's that need to addressed. Right now, you can go full redout and fully recover in a second.
I would agree that the current very mild effect of Neg Gs should be toughened up. Maybe after the first second or so you see "stars" for 5 seconds after you recover. Then each time following it gets progressively-exponentially worse.
But it is not an invalid tactic per se.
J.F."Stocky" Edwards - DAF
I look and I see this big red nose and he’s not very far away and he’s just slightly high like that [Stocky again illustrates the relative aircraft positions with his hands]. He probably went up higher. And I saw his nose drop and he wasn’t more than a hundred yards out again. And I felt all this happen and I saw his nose coming down, and I thought beautiful... intercept, so I just jammed the stick forward. When I did that all the dust and sand in the airplane went flying up in my face. I put it right forward and I’m going down more or less spiraling almost out of control because when you push it that hard at that speed you lose control of your aircraft.
Lt. Douglass Golding
I was flying Red 2 down sun when the call "Duck!" came over the R/T. I immediately followed my No 1 round in a sharp left-hand turn, and looking back, I saw an aircraft coming out of the sun dead astern steeply onto my tail. I put the stick left and forward with left rudder which seemed to nonplus the attacking pilot. He banked steeply, trying to get inside me...
Robert Johnson 56th FG
He’s too close. I shove the stick forward down to the right, swerving the Thunderbolt beneath the Focke-Wulf.
Joe Rosbert - AVG
Looking back I saw two of his mates trying to train their sights on me. I pushed the stick forward so hard I almost catapulted through the canopy. As I hurtled downward, I crouched down expecting at any moment the thud of bullets on the armor plate behind.
All the best.