Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Tom5572 on August 23, 2008, 06:47:24 PM
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I read the other article about Knoke and was intrigued and then went searching. I found an interesting site on Erich Hartmann, it has probably been posted already but I thought I would put it out there. I did not want to hijack the other post.
http://www.acesofww2.com/germany/aces/Hartmann.htm (http://www.acesofww2.com/germany/aces/Hartmann.htm)
Kind of interesting reading about the eastern front.
WMTom
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:aok
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Do you know he was an ardent nazi?
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Do you know he was an ardent nazi?
Do you know he wasn't? Maybe simply confusing Hartmann with Rudel? :rolleyes:
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Do you know he wasn't? Maybe simply confusing Hartmann with Rudel? :rolleyes:
Yeah, hartmann was such an ardent Nazi the west german republic rehired him for their airforce. :rolleyes:
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See Rule #5
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See Rule #5
German pilots were pilots just like Soviet, American, British and Japanese pilots.
One of the things you find when you read about combat pilots is that, at least as far as the Germany vs. Western Allies go, these men often had great respect for each other, especially in the air. This often isn't as true on the Russian front, but there were extensions of good will across the lines here as well.
"Separated for the moment by the barrier of war, we shall one day be reunited by death in the air."
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See Rule #6
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See Rule #5
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See Rule #5
Tell squealer.
Was Hartmann more of a 'good guy' on May 10, 1945?
Was he more of a 'good guy' during his 10 years of Soviet imprisonment, where he was a symbol of hope and defiance for poorly treated German prisoners?
Was he more of a 'good guy' after his release, when he rejoined the post-war Luftwaffe, and began training a NATO airforce not only in the Luftwaffe, but in the USAF?
Or was he condemned to life to being an evil Nazi for defending the German people against the hordes of the murdering, plundering, raping Red Army?
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I do not care that he is German, I abhor what the nazi's stood for. As this is a community that has a general interest in aviation history, thought it might be good to post a non political interview from the highest scoring ace of all time. We can, and do, learn from our enemies. The United States' modern infantry Tactics, Techniques and Procedures (TTPs) were derived from the Germans.
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See Rule #5
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See Rule #5
Nice dodge.
Answer my question.
And here's another one; were all of the American pilots who took instruction from Hartmann post war evil Nazi lovers? How about the two American WWII combat pilots who wrote his biography?
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See Rule #4
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See Rule #5
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You should be disgusted of yourself, posting a picture of the horrors of the holocaust to excuse bigotry.
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.
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See Rule #5
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That is a Nazi world..
That was brought to power by your brand of bigotry.
That you seem to wish for.
Explain to me how you came to that conclusion.
Are you going to answer my questions or just keep avoiding them?
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squealer did you read the article or you just being a total pain in the behind?
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I read the other article about Knoke and was intrigued and then went searching. I found an interesting site on Erich Hartmann, it has probably been posted already but I thought I would put it out there. I did not want to hijack the other post.
http://www.acesofww2.com/germany/aces/Hartmann.htm (http://www.acesofww2.com/germany/aces/Hartmann.htm)
Kind of interesting reading about the eastern front.
WMTom
worlds top scoring ace......352 kills
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See Rule #5
the german pilots were just pilots doing their jobs, just like any fighter pilot would
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See Rule #5
because they weren't "nazi" pilots?
they were kids doing the same as our kids were. fate just put them on the wrong side of the war.
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That was brought to power by your brand of bigotry.
No, by the death of a grandpa.
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interesting stories. the article is definitely worth reading. thanks again.
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Your welcome
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No, by the death of a grandpa.
i lost an uncle that was a medic in the infantry in wwII....but i don't hate all germans
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See Rule #5
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See Rule #6
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See Rules #4, #5
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See Rule #5
Oxymoron.
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Oxymoron.
You are probably right........
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See Rules #4, #6
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See Rule #6
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See Rule #5
I dont know if this occurred to you but I seriously doubt they had no choice. They'd be trialed for treason if they refused to fight.
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IN IN IN IN FREAKIN-A I AM IN !!!
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Your getting Hans Rudel (the Stuka tank busting ace) and Erich Hartmann mixed up. Some Luftwaffe pilots were certainly more enthusiastic supporters of the Nazi regime, like Rudel was, but Hartmann does not appear to have been "an ardent Nazi", any more than any other member of the Luftwaffe, anyways. Its unlikely he would have been given command of a NATO Fighter (JG71) Wing post WW2 if he was.
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The Luftwaffe had great respect for Allied pilots. In fact when Douglas Bader was shot down, he lost his artificial legs. The Luftwaffe allowed a British plane to air drop some new legs before he was sent to POW camp.
By labeling all that fought for Germany in WWII is a large step in imagination. To be labelled a Nazi, one had to be a member of the party and an ardent believer of the "cause."
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I have really high respect for pretty much all the Luftwaffe pilots. With the situation they were in, they just doing their job, not like they got a choice! Omfg let's go up there play w/ 1 v. 20 odds! Most ally pilots don't get that rich target environment!
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No, by the death of a grandpa.
Are you old enough that you met your grandfather?
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wow like this thread been skuzzyfied like 10 times lol
btw In before the lock :rock
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ahhh its all done now. Squealer is PNG. Looks like we missed a pretty heated one....... darn the need for sleep !
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Some German pilots were ardent Nazis, some weren't.
Some Soviet pilots were ardent Stalinists, some weren't.
Some Japanese pilots were ardent Imperialists, some weren't.
Some American pilots were ardent New Dealers, some weren't.
I personally think all of the above regimes, for that matter all "regimes" ever, were/are varying degrees of evil, yet I would still fight for my nation to the best of my ability against outsiders, and I believe any man worth his salt would do likewise.
The truth is, a combat pilot's core personality and ethos is more profession-defined than politically defined. Bud Anderson and Erich Hartmann would likely have more common ground and more to talk about over beer than Bud Anderson and Joe Pencil-Pusher. They were similiar kinds of men, they both had a genius for shooting down enemy airplanes, so of course they both hold similar fascination for fans of WWII aviation.
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(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v203/TNBrat/Emotions/Rant-On.gif)(http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a288/techdude502/lock.gif)
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I have really high respect for pretty much all the Luftwaffe pilots. With the situation they were in, they just doing their job, not like they got a choice! Omfg let's go up there play w/ 1 v. 20 odds! Most ally pilots don't get that rich target environment!
1 v 20 odds....was that over Poland? Or Yugoslavia? Denmark, perhaps, possibly Norway....
- oldman (or was it Belgium, or France, or Greece....so hard to remember....)
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Typical day on Ah BBS ;)
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1 v 20 odds....was that over Poland? Or Yugoslavia? Denmark, perhaps, possibly Norway....
- oldman (or was it Belgium, or France, or Greece....so hard to remember....)
In the article it's implied that those were typical odds against the Russians. Over Romania Hartmann claims that the odds were 30:1 because both the Russians and the Americans were operating there.
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"Once I attacked a flight of four IL-2s and shot one up. All four tried to roll out in formation at low altitude, and all four crashed into the ground, unable to recover since their bomb loads reduced their maneuverability. Those were the easiest four kills I ever had."
Would those be counted as kills if it were an American pilot? I can see how they might be awarded as kills since they crashed as a result of his attack, but it seems like the real life equivalent of an AH proxy.
*EDIT*
"I made jerking turns left and right as they fired, but they fired from too far away to be effective. I was headed for the base so the defensive guns would help me."
Hartmann was a stick stirring ack-runner :rofl
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Gotta even out the odd some how!
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Would those be counted as kills if it were an American pilot?
I don't know. Still, if using American standards, Hartmann's kill tally would likely have been greater because of the fractional kill credits that were awarded.
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"Once I attacked a flight of four IL-2s and shot one up. All four tried to roll out in formation at low altitude, and all four crashed into the ground, unable to recover since their bomb loads reduced their maneuverability. Those were the easiest four kills I ever had."
Would those be counted as kills if it were an American pilot? I can see how they might be awarded as kills since they crashed as a result of his attack, but it seems like the real life equivalent of an AH proxy.
*EDIT*
"I made jerking turns left and right as they fired, but they fired from too far away to be effective. I was headed for the base so the defensive guns would help me."
Hartmann was a stick stirring ack-runner :rofl
No, it goes to show you the IL-2's were a bane to the Armor. But, mincemeat to fighters in WWII. Not the "game the game" dogfighters in here. They crashed trying to do what AH'ers are able to do.
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There is no doubt that Hartmann was an extraordinary fighter pilot but, I have to wonder how he would have done if he wasn't on the Eastern Front where the pickin's seemed easy.
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Talented pilot would do good no matter what front they are in!
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Talented pilot would do good no matter what front they are in!
Yes, BUT, would he have had anywhere near 350+ kills.
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I am SOOOOOOOOOOOO INNNNNNN :eek:
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I am SOOOOOOOOOOOO INNNNNNN :eek:
GUAPO!
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There is no doubt that Hartmann was an extraordinary fighter pilot but, I have to wonder how he would have done if he wasn't on the Eastern Front where the pickin's seemed easy.
Ever read about his encounters with P-51D's?
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Ever read about his encounters with P-51D's?
I did. Again, I'm not saying he wasn't an excellent pilot, just wondering if he would have had the same success is all. There were a number of German pilots that had hundreds of kills but, IIRC, they were on the eastern front too. There were undoubtedly great allied pilots too, but they didn't achieve anywhere near the number of kills that the Germans did. All I am wondering is what would have happened if Hartmann and the other uber German pilots had to fly in the same situations that the Allies did.
Just a interesting "what if."
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Of course. I agree that he probably wouldn't have reached 352. Then again, Marseille scored his 158 victories against the western allies in a very short time.
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I did. Again, I'm not saying he wasn't an excellent pilot, just wondering if he would have had the same success is all. There were a number of German pilots that had hundreds of kills but, IIRC, they were on the eastern front too. There were undoubtedly great allied pilots too, but they didn't achieve anywhere near the number of kills that the Germans did. All I am wondering is what would have happened if Hartmann and the other uber German pilots had to fly in the same situations that the Allies did.
Just a interesting "what if."
They didn't, so you CANNOT compare them.
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Yes, BUT, would he have had anywhere near 350+ kills.
yes
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Of course. I agree that he probably wouldn't have reached 352. Then again, Marseille scored his 158 victories against the western allies in a very short time.
Very short. IIRC he was only in Africa, where he scored most of his kills, for little over a year before he was killed when his 109G had engine problems and he hit his vertical stabilizer bailing out. There's probably a good chance he would have surpassed Hartmann had he lived longer.
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Very short. IIRC he was only in Africa, where he scored most of his kills, for little over a year.
7 kills during the BoB I think, the rest in Africa.
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W00t for Jochen :aok
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7 kills during the BoB I think, the rest in Africa.
regardless of where he served his country, you cannot take credit away from an amazingly talented pilot.
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He means... it's amazing... he scored 151 kills against the RAF in less than a year and a half.
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Jochen is a god of air combat. END OF STORY.
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Think a little about it.
Your country has declared war, you're twenty years old or so, and they need you.
They're going to give you a brand new shiny state-of-the-art amazing Hot Rod of the skies with a bunch of big-ass guns on it,
...and turn you loose after training you on the basics of how not to get killed taking off in one.
I don't know about everyone for sure .. but for me .. I would be so IN.
I wooda been right there with 'am all.. or died tryin.
"Gimme the whole nine yards an fill 'er up, cheif, ima go shoot the *crap* outta somethin!!"
-GE aka Frank
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IL-2s were actually tough a/c to shoot down, its easy to endlessly quote (which we all do cuz its interesting) the exploits of the top 1 percent, and then act as if thats the "norm". The things they did were extraordinary because they were the top elite in their respective air forces.
As for Hartmann, just because he had a certain # of kills would have been no guarantee he would have survived the war, war is cruel, there are many 100+ LW vets who who were KIA in 1943-45. Even the best of the bests luck runs out at some point. Its nothing but idle speculation past that. Death by "other means" ie; mechanical failure, collision, weather, ect, was also a constant danger, and in his case, thats what happened. It was a cause of so many missions his number finally came up.
Look at Von Richtofen in WW1, all those missions and close calls, in the end, he just had a bad day, and thats all it took.
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"Kill"
Every "kill" is with a high probability an actual "kill" of the enemy pilot. That is why I do not cheer those achievements but only as a sad measure of their skill and result of chance or, as in late Luftwaffe case (also remember Polish pilots), desperation. 300, 100, 10, even one kill -does not really matter, they all, of every nationality, did their best even in such a grim profession.
I would not want to think (if I was here anymore to think anything) that my every kill was somebody's dearly missed son or somebody's father. I have met WW2 veterans who usually do not want to discuss about their achievements and, for some time now, I have very well understood why.
I'm glad I did not have to be in their place.
-C+
PS. Carry on people, do not pay heed to my gloomy ramblings...
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IL-2s were actually tough a/c to shoot down, its easy to endlessly quote (which we all do cuz its interesting) the exploits of the top 1 percent, and then act as if thats the "norm". The things they did were extraordinary because they were the top elite in their respective air forces.
As for Hartmann, just because he had a certain # of kills would have been no guarantee he would have survived the war, war is cruel, there are many 100+ LW vets who who were KIA in 1943-45. Even the best of the bests luck runs out at some point. Its nothing but idle speculation past that. Death by "other means" ie; mechanical failure, collision, weather, ect, was also a constant danger, and in his case, thats what happened. It was a cause of so many missions his number finally came up.
Look at Von Richtofen in WW1, all those missions and close calls, in the end, he just had a bad day, and thats all it took.
actually, if i recall correctly from reading, richtoffen's downfall(in the long run) was when he got shot in the head. the bullet grazed his head, forcing him to land. it tok him some time to heal, but from all accounts, he had lost the "drive" that he was famous for. he seemed to not want to fl anymore, and less attentave.
then when he finally was finished, what killed him, was that he broke one of his own rules in combat, and got too focused on his prey. this let him get disoriented,too close to the ground behind enemy lines, and the ground gunners got him(although books said roy brown shot him down, he was never in gun range...i think)
as far as having good and bad days.......that is true. sometimes better lucky than good
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Or was he condemned to life to being an evil Nazi for defending the German people against the hordes of the murdering, plundering, raping Red Army?
Uhhh... Uhhhh.... "defending?" correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Germany invade Russia?
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One usually defends after he is no longer able to attack ;)
What do you think, Shane, were the Americans defending their country, or were they just attacking the Germans and Japanese after they got attacked?
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It was a preemptive strike. :rofl
:noid
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See Rules #4, #5
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You fellas would give any WW2 History professor a complete heart attack. :rolleyes:
German pilots racked up impressive kill totals because they flew until they were physically unable to, or died, whichever came first.
Most of the German 'Experten' started flying as early as the Spanish Civil War, and those that weren't KIA were still flying in 1945. That's an awful long time in the arena, and certainly weeds out the lesser, or unlucky, pilots.
Had Bong, Maguire, Gabreski, or Boyington flown hundreds of missions like the German pilots did, perhaps their totals would have been more reflective of their talents. The key is to look at the kills vs. mission flown ratios. In some cases, if scored that way, some Allied pilots had better averages.
Yes, German pilots had an easier time on the Eastern Front in the early stages of the war. By 1943, what the Russians lacked in technical expertise, they made up for in sheer numbers. The Lagg-1, Lagg-3, and Mig-3 were no match for the 109s and 190s, but they countered with numbers. By early 1944, the La-5, Yak-1, Yak-9, had leveled the playing field technologically, however, the Germans still had a slight edge in terms of experience. By late 1944, even that was gone.
Every one of us has accidentally flown into a AH horde and said 'this isn't going to be good'. Imagine doing that in RL, when you can't respawn and start over, where death, your death, is permanent. It tends to make you far more cautious than you would be in a game.
As for the political side - there are dozens of documented instances of German pilots being very anti-Nazi, some even resulting in firing squads. On the other side, there were some that were over-the-top fanatical. Although you cannot compare Nazism to any other form of politics, look at how people today go nuts over politics in this country. Soccer moms getting into fistfights over whose presidential candidate is a better choice, etc... Idealism, good or bad, can motivate people to extremes.
Back to the original comment - Erich Hartmann. I met Herr Hartmann in the late 80s. Yes, the war had been over for 40+ years, and yes, he was older and wiser, but what struck me was who he was hanging around with... former US and RAF combat pilots who'd over the years become his closest friends. If they had the wisdom and knowledge to forgive him (and they flew against him), then why shouldn't we?
You and I, the post-WW2 generations, have no right to pass judgement on these people. We weren't there. Our fathers and grandfathers were, so we should respect their judgements. Both of my grandfathers have passed ('45 and '75), so I can't ask them directly...but I've never talked to a WW2 veteran who hasn't moved on, forgiven, or become friends with, their former enemies.
I've been fortunate in my job (I ran an air museum for seven years) to have met some great men, fighter pilots, guys whose names you won't recognize, but guys that flew in combat with the likes of Bong and Boyington. The first thing they'll say when you thank them for what they did, "I was only doing my job". We look at history through modern-day glasses, using modern-day values and morals. People were different back then, duty, honor, integrity, and country meant something back then. Sadly, that's gone away for the most part in this modern, game-playing world in which we live.
Ok....old guy rant off... back to getting my tailfeathers shot off.
J
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Thx JHerne. As a fellow old guy. :salute You get it.
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Very nice post, JHerne. :salute
Many of us do not realize how young and inexperienced boys these fighter pilots in every country were. What did they know about world or anything, other than what they were told. Several veterans I have met and read about have said/written that they were aviators first and soldiers second.
I assume that this shared interest has made it much easier for veteran pilots to befriend the former enemies after the war.
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If they had the wisdom and knowledge to forgive him (and they flew against him), then why shouldn't we?
You and I, the post-WW2 generations, have no right to pass judgement on these people. We weren't there. Our fathers and grandfathers were, so we should respect their judgements. Both of my grandfathers have passed ('45 and '75), so I can't ask them directly...but I've never talked to a WW2 veteran who hasn't moved on, forgiven, or become friends with, their former enemies.
I've been fortunate in my job (I ran an air museum for seven years) to have met some great men, fighter pilots, guys whose names you won't recognize, but guys that flew in combat with the likes of Bong and Boyington. The first thing they'll say when you thank them for what they did, "I was only doing my job". We look at history through modern-day glasses, using modern-day values and morals. People were different back then, duty, honor, integrity, and country meant something back then. Sadly, that's gone away for the most part in this modern, game-playing world in which we live.
Ok....old guy rant off... back to getting my tailfeathers shot off.
J
hey old guy dude..... :D
there really isn't anything to forgive him or most of his comrades for. they, just like the allied forces......were just kids(in most cases) doing their assigned jobs. unfortunatly, fate put them on the wrong side. i truely believe that they did not take any particular pleasure in shooting down allied aircraft. in fact, a lot of what i read, most german pilots looked on it as a "hunt" once they had disabled an allied aircraft, they seemed to leave it alone, and go on to the next one, as the challenge was now gone.
there were a couple of accounts that i'd read about german pilots actually letting bombers rtb, seeing the gunners not able to return fire, although i don't know how true that really is.
my point is that they were airmen just like the allies were, and were doing their job. although they were on the wrong side of history, they just like the allied pilots, should be saluted for their service to their respective countries.
i guess i should probably duck now, huh? :noid
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Nah, no ducking is necessary.
The world as we know has changed, truth be told, every generation says that about the next.
My grandfather called the Beatles 'those long-haired hippy freaks', my father called Metallica 'those head-banging, devil-worshipping wierdos', and I look at most rap music today as totally talentless.
Each to his own, whether it's music, politics, or the state of the world. Very few people share the same opinions, but I think we can ALL agree that the world our parents and grandparents knew no longer exists.
Jeff
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Nah, no ducking is necessary.
The world as we know has changed, truth be told, every generation says that about the next.
My grandfather called the Beatles 'those long-haired hippy freaks', my father called Metallica 'those head-banging, devil-worshipping wierdos', and I look at most rap music today as totally talentless.
Each to his own, whether it's music, politics, or the state of the world. Very few people share the same opinions, but I think we can ALL agree that the world our parents and grandparents knew no longer exists.
Jeff
At least one of you were right. :D
As far as the world being different? My grandfather (my wife and I take care of him) served in the Navy in WW2, and just celebrated his 87th B-day and reminds me EVERY DAY, that the world he grew up in and knew, is gone.
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Nah, no ducking is necessary.
The world as we know has changed, truth be told, every generation says that about the next.
My grandfather called the Beatles 'those long-haired hippy freaks', my father called Metallica 'those head-banging, devil-worshipping wierdos', and I look at most rap music today as totally talentless.
Each to his own, whether it's music, politics, or the state of the world. Very few people share the same opinions, but I think we can ALL agree that the world our parents and grandparents knew no longer exists.
Jeff
DIFFERENCE IN THE music you mentioned, is that the beatles are incredible, metallica is great, and well...rap.........sucks
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At least one of you were right. :D
As far as the world being different? My grandfather (my wife and I take care of him) served in the Navy in WW2, and just celebrated his 87th B-day and reminds me EVERY DAY, that the world he grew up in and knew, is gone.
:salute to your grandfather, and thanks. :salute
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Von Messa,
If you haven't already...set a video camera and interview your grandfather. My biggest regret in talking with my grandfather who died in 1975 was not getting his experiences down for history. There are so many vets who don't tell of their experiences because they don't think anyone today cares.
I know this much about my grandfathers... Dad's dad was a Marine infantryman, volunteered in 1938. Stationed at Pearl, he went to Guadalcanal in '42, then Tarawa, Saipan, and was wounded at Iwo Jima and sent home. In late '45, he was crossing the street and killed by a bus. That...is irony that really sucks.
Mom's dad's story is even more notable...he joined the Navy in early '42, was a steamfitter onboard the USS Cushing (DD-376). Cushing was sunk at Savo Island (my two grandfathers were literally miles apart and never knew each other), and he ended up in the water. A landing craft came by, picked them up and put them on the beach at Lunga Point. They were handing out rifles when an officer came along and said they needed a crew to get steam up on the USS Atlanta, so he volunteered. A Japanese sub torpedoed Atlanta later that night, and he ended up in the water again. He was picked up and sent back to Pearl, where he applied for, and was accepted to, radio operator school. He returned to the fleet in early 1944 aboard the 2nd USS Cushing, (DD-797). He served aboard the Cushing until he was transferred to the USS Franklin in 1945. Franklin was damn-near sunk by the Japanese off the coast of the mainland, and limped home. He was getting set to go back out on another CV when the war ended. He worked for the Rutland Railroad for a few years, then the US Postal Service. He died from lung cancer in 1975.
If you have a WW2, Korean, or Vietnam-era relative, get their stories down. It doesn't matter if the story is about combat, training, or chasing women in Siagon, it's still part of our history that we need to pass on to our kids and grandkids...
Old Dude rant off!
Oh, btw, while I do think most rap sucks, the Beatles rock, Metallica (although too commercialized now) is awesome. I grew up listening to Pink Floyd, Iron Maiden, Deep Purple, etc... today, it's Green Day, Godsmack, Megadeth, stuff like that...
J
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That's a good idea, I've talk to my dad and got him to share his experience. I didn't think about recording it though.