Author Topic: RE: Erich Hartmann  (Read 2898 times)

Offline JHerne

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 659
Re: RE: Erich Hartmann
« Reply #75 on: August 25, 2008, 09:52:11 AM »
You fellas would give any WW2 History professor a complete heart attack.  :rolleyes:

German pilots racked up impressive kill totals because they flew until they were physically unable to, or died, whichever came first.
Most of the German 'Experten' started flying as early as the Spanish Civil War, and those that weren't KIA were still flying in 1945. That's an awful long time in the arena, and certainly weeds out the lesser, or unlucky, pilots.

Had Bong, Maguire, Gabreski, or Boyington flown hundreds of missions like the German pilots did, perhaps their totals would have been more reflective of their talents. The key is to look at the kills vs. mission flown ratios. In some cases, if scored that way, some Allied pilots had better averages.

Yes, German pilots had an easier time on the Eastern Front in the early stages of the war. By 1943, what the Russians lacked in technical expertise, they made up for in sheer numbers. The Lagg-1, Lagg-3, and Mig-3 were no match for the 109s and 190s, but they countered with numbers. By early 1944, the La-5, Yak-1, Yak-9, had leveled the playing field technologically, however, the Germans still had a slight edge in terms of experience. By late 1944, even that was gone.

Every one of us has accidentally flown into a AH horde and said 'this isn't going to be good'. Imagine doing that in RL, when you can't respawn and start over, where death, your death, is permanent. It tends to make you far more cautious than you would be in a game.

As for the political side - there are dozens of documented instances of German pilots being very anti-Nazi, some even resulting in firing squads. On the other side, there were some that were over-the-top fanatical. Although you cannot compare Nazism to any other form of politics, look at how people today go nuts over politics in this country. Soccer moms getting into fistfights over whose presidential candidate is a better choice, etc... Idealism, good or bad, can motivate people to extremes.

Back to the original comment - Erich Hartmann. I met Herr Hartmann in the late 80s. Yes, the war had been over for 40+ years, and yes, he was older and wiser, but what struck me was who he was hanging around with... former US and RAF combat pilots who'd over the years become his closest friends. If they had the wisdom and knowledge to forgive him (and they flew against him), then why shouldn't we?

You and I, the post-WW2 generations, have no right to pass judgement on these people. We weren't there. Our fathers and grandfathers were, so we should respect their judgements. Both of my grandfathers have passed ('45 and '75), so I can't ask them directly...but I've never talked to a WW2 veteran who hasn't moved on, forgiven, or become friends with, their former enemies.

I've been fortunate in my job (I ran an air museum for seven years) to have met some great men, fighter pilots, guys whose names you won't recognize, but guys that flew in combat with the likes of Bong and Boyington. The first thing they'll say when you thank them for what they did, "I was only doing my job". We look at history through modern-day glasses, using modern-day values and morals. People were different back then, duty, honor, integrity, and country meant something back then. Sadly, that's gone away for the most part in this modern, game-playing world in which we live.

Ok....old guy rant off... back to getting my tailfeathers shot off.

J

Skunkworks AvA Researcher and
Primary Cause of Angst

Offline Cthulhu

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2463
Re: RE: Erich Hartmann
« Reply #76 on: August 25, 2008, 09:57:04 AM »
Thx JHerne. As a fellow old guy. :salute  You get it.
"Think of Tetris as a metaphor for life:  You spend all your time trying to find a place for your long thin piece, then when you finally do, everything you've built disappears"

Offline BlauK

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5091
      • http://www.virtualpilots.fi/LLv34/
Re: RE: Erich Hartmann
« Reply #77 on: August 25, 2008, 10:10:37 AM »
Very nice post, JHerne.  :salute

Many of us do not realize how young and inexperienced boys these fighter pilots in every country were. What did they know about world or anything, other than what they were told. Several veterans I have met and read about have said/written that they were aviators first and soldiers second.

I assume that this shared interest has made it much easier for veteran pilots to befriend the former enemies after the war.


  BlauKreuz - Lentolaivue 34      


Offline CAP1

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 22287
      • The Axis Vs Allies Arena
Re: RE: Erich Hartmann
« Reply #78 on: August 25, 2008, 11:19:29 AM »


 If they had the wisdom and knowledge to forgive him (and they flew against him), then why shouldn't we?

You and I, the post-WW2 generations, have no right to pass judgement on these people. We weren't there. Our fathers and grandfathers were, so we should respect their judgements. Both of my grandfathers have passed ('45 and '75), so I can't ask them directly...but I've never talked to a WW2 veteran who hasn't moved on, forgiven, or become friends with, their former enemies.

I've been fortunate in my job (I ran an air museum for seven years) to have met some great men, fighter pilots, guys whose names you won't recognize, but guys that flew in combat with the likes of Bong and Boyington. The first thing they'll say when you thank them for what they did, "I was only doing my job". We look at history through modern-day glasses, using modern-day values and morals. People were different back then, duty, honor, integrity, and country meant something back then. Sadly, that's gone away for the most part in this modern, game-playing world in which we live.

Ok....old guy rant off... back to getting my tailfeathers shot off.

J



hey old guy dude..... :D

there really isn't anything to forgive him or most of his comrades for. they, just like the allied forces......were just kids(in most cases) doing their assigned jobs. unfortunatly, fate put them on the wrong side. i truely believe that they did not take any particular pleasure in shooting down allied aircraft. in fact, a lot of what i read, most german pilots looked on it as a "hunt" once they had disabled an allied aircraft, they seemed to leave it alone, and go on to the next one, as the challenge was now gone.
 there were a couple of accounts that i'd read about german pilots actually letting bombers rtb, seeing the gunners not able to return fire, although i don't know how true that really is.

 my point is that they were airmen just like the allies were, and were doing their job. although they were on the wrong side of history, they just like the allied pilots, should be saluted for their service to their respective countries.

 i guess i should probably duck now, huh? :noid
ingame 1LTCAP
80th FS "Headhunters"
S.A.P.P.- Secret Association Of P-38 Pilots (Lightning in a Bottle)

Offline JHerne

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 659
Re: RE: Erich Hartmann
« Reply #79 on: August 25, 2008, 02:36:25 PM »
Nah, no ducking is necessary.

The world as we know has changed, truth be told, every generation says that about the next.

My grandfather called the Beatles 'those long-haired hippy freaks', my father called Metallica 'those head-banging, devil-worshipping wierdos', and I look at most rap music today as totally talentless.

Each to his own, whether it's music, politics, or the state of the world. Very few people share the same opinions, but I think we can ALL agree that the world our parents and grandparents knew no longer exists.

Jeff
Skunkworks AvA Researcher and
Primary Cause of Angst

Offline VonMessa

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11922
Re: RE: Erich Hartmann
« Reply #80 on: August 25, 2008, 02:55:53 PM »
Nah, no ducking is necessary.

The world as we know has changed, truth be told, every generation says that about the next.

My grandfather called the Beatles 'those long-haired hippy freaks', my father called Metallica 'those head-banging, devil-worshipping wierdos', and I look at most rap music today as totally talentless.

Each to his own, whether it's music, politics, or the state of the world. Very few people share the same opinions, but I think we can ALL agree that the world our parents and grandparents knew no longer exists.

Jeff

At least one of you were right.   :D

As far as the world being different?  My grandfather (my wife and I take care of him) served in the Navy in WW2, and just celebrated his 87th B-day and reminds me EVERY DAY, that the world he grew up in and knew, is gone.
Braümeister und Schmutziger Hund von JG11


We are all here because we are not all there.

Offline CAP1

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 22287
      • The Axis Vs Allies Arena
Re: RE: Erich Hartmann
« Reply #81 on: August 25, 2008, 03:07:13 PM »
Nah, no ducking is necessary.

The world as we know has changed, truth be told, every generation says that about the next.

My grandfather called the Beatles 'those long-haired hippy freaks', my father called Metallica 'those head-banging, devil-worshipping wierdos', and I look at most rap music today as totally talentless.

Each to his own, whether it's music, politics, or the state of the world. Very few people share the same opinions, but I think we can ALL agree that the world our parents and grandparents knew no longer exists.

Jeff

DIFFERENCE IN THE  music you mentioned, is that the beatles are incredible, metallica is great, and well...rap.........sucks
ingame 1LTCAP
80th FS "Headhunters"
S.A.P.P.- Secret Association Of P-38 Pilots (Lightning in a Bottle)

Offline CAP1

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 22287
      • The Axis Vs Allies Arena
Re: RE: Erich Hartmann
« Reply #82 on: August 25, 2008, 03:07:53 PM »
At least one of you were right.   :D

As far as the world being different?  My grandfather (my wife and I take care of him) served in the Navy in WW2, and just celebrated his 87th B-day and reminds me EVERY DAY, that the world he grew up in and knew, is gone.

 :salute to your grandfather, and thanks. :salute
ingame 1LTCAP
80th FS "Headhunters"
S.A.P.P.- Secret Association Of P-38 Pilots (Lightning in a Bottle)

Offline JHerne

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 659
Re: RE: Erich Hartmann
« Reply #83 on: August 26, 2008, 10:30:28 AM »
Von Messa,

If you haven't already...set a video camera and interview your grandfather. My biggest regret in talking with my grandfather who died in 1975 was not getting his experiences down for history. There are so many vets who don't tell of their experiences because they don't think anyone today cares.

I know this much about my grandfathers... Dad's dad was a Marine infantryman, volunteered in 1938. Stationed at Pearl, he went to Guadalcanal in '42, then Tarawa, Saipan, and was wounded at Iwo Jima and sent home. In late '45, he was crossing the street and killed by a bus. That...is irony that really sucks.

Mom's dad's story is even more notable...he joined the Navy in early '42, was a steamfitter onboard the USS Cushing (DD-376). Cushing was sunk at Savo Island (my two grandfathers were literally miles apart and never knew each other), and he ended up in the water. A landing craft came by, picked them up and put them on the beach at Lunga Point. They were handing out rifles when an officer came along and said they needed a crew to get steam up on the USS Atlanta, so he volunteered. A Japanese sub torpedoed Atlanta later that night, and he ended up in the water again. He was picked up and sent back to Pearl, where he applied for, and was accepted to, radio operator school. He returned to the fleet in early 1944 aboard the 2nd USS Cushing, (DD-797). He served aboard the Cushing until he was transferred to the USS Franklin in 1945. Franklin was damn-near sunk by the Japanese off the coast of the mainland, and limped home. He was getting set to go back out on another CV when the war ended. He worked for the Rutland Railroad for a few years, then the US Postal Service. He died from lung cancer in 1975.

If you have a WW2, Korean, or Vietnam-era relative, get their stories down. It doesn't matter if the story is about combat, training, or chasing women in Siagon, it's still part of our history that we need to pass on to our kids and grandkids...

Old Dude rant off!

Oh, btw, while I do think most rap sucks, the Beatles rock, Metallica (although too commercialized now) is awesome. I grew up listening to Pink Floyd, Iron Maiden, Deep Purple, etc... today, it's Green Day, Godsmack, Megadeth, stuff like that...

J
Skunkworks AvA Researcher and
Primary Cause of Angst

Offline Yenny

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1331
Re: RE: Erich Hartmann
« Reply #84 on: August 26, 2008, 11:25:08 AM »
That's a good idea, I've talk to my dad and got him to share his experience. I didn't think about recording it though.
E .· ` ' / ·. F
Your tears fuel me.
Noobing since tour 96
Ze LuftVhiners Alliance - 'Don't Focke Wulf Us!'