Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Yenny on August 24, 2008, 03:26:02 PM
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Maybe it's just the furballers that hate it? I enjoy land grabbing and furballing all together. Furballing, my objective is just to have fun, I usually just up in a capped base, or fight at TT. I would just look for the biggest red blob on the map and fly to it. That's my furballing mentality. About 80% of my sorties are furballing.
My mentality change when I fly land grabbing mission. My objective is to remain air borne over target area as long as I can to provide air cover. The best way for me to do that would be BnZ, which is why I usually BnZ on these fighter cover mission. It's effective, I can kill stuff left and right, keeping the area clear so that bombers and goonies can come in. Here is where I have no problem vulching if it's needed. I usually don't vulch because I just don't wanna face the AAAs and it waste a lot more rounds then air to air kills.
Most people picture bnzmers as alt monkey. I think those are wrong term, we're more of opportunist or picker w/e it's called nowaday. I rarely fly over 7k in D9 at a combat zone. Only time I would fly my D9 over 7k is if I am roping someone. If the ACK are down, I would most likely fly around 4k and directly over the air field. Reason for not flying high is because most fight will be under 5k. The higher you are the longer it takes for you to dive on your target. Even with chop throttle, those high alt dive still creat too much speed for an effective shot. If the ACK are up, I usually would fly at 6k above the airfield or away from the air field. I rely on my aiming and fuel management to maximize my time over target area to provide cover. I only BnZ when I'm on land grabbing mission because it's usually really boring and no challange. However, it's really effective in CAP over the enemy air space, so that's why I usually BnZ when I do CAP.
Lately, since people been frowning on me flying bnz mission=/ I kinda step back and not fly it as much as I used to. Maybe 2-3 BnZ sorties a day then I'd go to TT and furball. Kinda step away from land grabbing stuff and mainly focusing on furball. I do miss it sometimes though, I really enjoy the team work that land grabbing mission offers. It's the other aspect of the game that I really like other then just dogfighting. Strafing building, putting VH out through gazillions of acks and flaks fire.
Overall though, I believe BnZ is probably the best way to fly for CAP sorties over enemy air field. Since the objective is to take the base, rather then furballing. People always talk smash about D-9 pilots, but take a look at 38s, Niki, tiff they just do the same thing but in a different plane. Most good pilot in any plane will do the same thing, they will not just straight up chop throttle to settle onto a target, because in a furball environment you're not just facing one. You will need speed to dodge them other plane that takes passes at ya. So for base capping mission, thumbs up for you bnzmers out there.
I'll post a few film for people to see how effective BnZ is compare to the tnb stuff for land grabbing mission. BnZ sorties in D-9 usually last 40 mins. 25 out of those 40 min are over target area, the other 15 are ingress and egress. D9 surfers from the small fuel tanks and vulnerable radiator (some how that watermelon always go out, almost to any kind of angle). So I always fight with drop tank on and use it til it's empty before I drop them. 25 min over enemy air space is enough air time to be effective in keeping stuff down until the bombers/goons arrive.
My though on vulching, if you're willing to go through gazillion of flaks and ACKs then you probably deserve it.
http://files.filefront.com/Airfield+Capping+2ahf/;11594440;/fileinfo.html
http://files.filefront.com/BnZ+Filmahf/;10815618;/fileinfo.html
http://files.filefront.com/CAP+Airfield+12ahf/;10367677;/fileinfo.html
Disclaimer :lol : All these films are just BnZ, Pick, and Vulch. It's not intend to show ACM. It's intend is to show the effectiveness of BnZ as CAP for a base capture.
To be an effective BnZmer you gotta know ACM, but that's another story.
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Hello Yenny,
I don't hate it. I use it as well as other tactics and ways of flying as the situation dictates. So in a nutshell Sir, who cares as long as you are having fun? :rock
<Salute>
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I BnZ in a BnZ plane, I turn in a turning plane, I furball in a furballing plane.
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Yenny the only time Ive ever seen a D9 at 7k is when they are climbing after takeoff or when they are running, which is pretty much always. Im not saying I dont believe you Im just saying that most dont fly them like that. Pickers dont bother me to much no-how cause Ive learned how to avoid them. Its really the real good sticks at co-Alt that mostly give me trouble.
But right now Im keying on ID'ing strengths of both the aircraft Im flying, against the one Im fighting, and exploiting them in real time. You cant do that against pick and run run90s. Nor can you really do it much in big furballs. I prefer the nimble, all around, Yank and Brits sets cause I can do a little of everything in them. Including blow things up with ords.
I frankly feel that for someone who really wants to learn this game the P-38 has a lot to offer.
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(http://img433.imageshack.us/img433/5180/tomcat9kv.gif) thats why(http://www.abgraphix.com/gifs/images/transports/avions/avions010.gif)(http://premium1.uploadit.org/chewpilla/emocions/image11.gif)
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Where in the world did you get that awesome Spitfire scot!!! :O ;)
I don't hate BnZers's. It's part of a dogfight. However, I do find it a bit annoying when there ar 20 pilots flying around at 15K, and all are BnZing when they could easily deack and CAP the airfield.
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It has now become a necesity to learn how to BnZ now. Personally, I never go past 5 or 6K, just because its not worth it, as you say. But latley its been worse and worse; alt monkeys in Hurri2Cs at 15 or 16K. spit14s at 20K, thats whats called picking and or score *horing. I take up an F4U at 5K and land 5 or more kills before I resupply or land them. I know that most fights are on the deck, and the some of the best score *hores on the game are at 7 or 8K in their spixteens or LAs.
They seem to make the game more fun when you own them from off their perch, just becasue they have no talent what so ever. I also love when the spixteen from the deck tries to climb to you, even if he somehow makes it up to you, in a F4U, its still hard for them to beat you, just because its one of the best turners in the game.
5K is not pickin, 20K is picking.
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I don't hate BnZers but if it's a 1 on 1 fight, then yea it's pretty lame if they have a capable aircraft and do nothing but BnZ. That annoys the hell out of me and causes me to call them a tard on ch200. :rolleyes: The reason is because in most cases, those are the same tards that run like a girl from a 1 on 1, soon as they lose that alt advantage.
If I'm at a enemy base and I'm out numbered, then hell yea I'll BnZ them like a mofo, because you dam sure know you will get ganged if you try to give them a fair fight. If I'm fighting a Zeek or a Huri2 then I'll BnZ them like a mofo because if you fly those planes you deserve to get BnZed. :D Any other plane I'll almost always drop my alt to give a fair 1 on 1 fight if I'm higher and there are no other threats around.
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'Cause I killed Kenny.
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'Cause I killed Kenny.
nah your just misunderstood
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Serious answer: Because if you are fighting 1 faster plane booming and zooming you, you have a chance of being shot down and almost 0 chance of shooting them down, unless they let you. When you find yourself fighting a group of boom&zoom planes who know what they are doing, you have a very good chance of being shot down and again almost 0 chance of shooting one of them down, unless one of them lets you. People don't like them odds, (when they are the victim anyway, they are great odds when you're on the other end of it.) So they whine.
BTW, it is actually difficult to get a lot of kills bnzing one knows what they are doing. Getting a pick on a sleeper is actually rare, if you fly in a gang, your individual chance of getting a kill is divided by however many gangers you have with you. That leaves E-fighting as an individual, which is more difficult than t'n'b fighting, or working effectively as a group (against reasonably even odds), which is even more difficult. In either case, high-speed gunnery is a difficult art.
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(http://img304.imageshack.us/img304/3585/plane8zh.gif)(http://digilander.libero.it/le.faccine/faccinea/si_va/0001125.gif)(http://www.abgraphix.com/gifs/images/transports/avions/avions010.gif)
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That leaves E-fighting
Just in case you're not familiar with true E-fighting which is more than Boom & Zoom...
http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/efight/efight.htm
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I don't hate people who bnz, i do however hate people who bnz poorly, without aggression.
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without aggression.
That's majority of BnZoomers
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I don't hate people who bnz, i do however hate people who bnz poorly, without aggression.
I think that's it right there.
BnZing done properly is extremely aggressive. Look at it this way, you have the alt, the E, the position and usually the fastest plane. That's four great reasons to take it to the other guy very aggressively unless you're badly outnumbered locally, only then would you have to be somewhat more cautious. The best BnZ work is as aggressive as possible while still keeping the prey at arms length where he can't get an angle or anything more than an extremely fleeting overshoot shot while denying him the time to regain E/position/SA if he successfully evades. People BnZing like complete candyasses are why there's a stigma attached to it. Sure, the candyasses are not very effective and probably rarely shoot people down, but it's a matter of public perception.
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What most people call "bnzing" would be akin to getting pocket aces in holdem and promptly folding. They have every advantage and don't use it. I'll never understand why.
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What most people call "bnzing" would be akin to getting pocket aces in holdem and promptly folding. They have every advantage and don't use it. I'll never understand why.
Yup, there's only 3 factors involved...altitude, energy and position. If you have all three of those things you should be aggressively applying them for the kill. Failure to quickly follow-up on a failed pass almost guarantees the next one will also fail.
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Something I'll add to this topic, is a lot of people call energy fighting BnZing and many people think energy fighting is only Boom & Zooms. I think of my self as a energy fighter and that doesn't mean I need to have alt on the other con to fight my fight as a E fighter. Quite simply the basis behind E fighting is controlling your energy to be in position to control the fight and set up the kill.
BnZing & stall fighting is a form of E fighting much the same as a TnB fighting can be E fighting, in short a good E fighter uses all aspects of ACM. Most people that strictly turn fight in the TnB planes never really learn how to control their energy. Typically these are the guys that you see trying to do flat turns and typically end up depending on their aircraft's natural turn ability to out turn you rather than using ACM and energy to set up the kill.
The typical TnB pilot thinks they have to out turn you to win a fight which leaves themselves very few options. In reality you don't have to out turn the other aircraft you only have to learn to turn smarter, that is what a good E fighter does. A good E fighter uses his momentum and energy to not out turn the other aircraft, but to turn smarter and keep his air speed in the process. Doing this makes the other aircraft lose his speed and alt, therefore allowing the E fighter to take control of the fight.
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Not that I am extremely experiences with it, I find the dividing factor between BnZ and e-fighting to be the level of aggression.
What I call BnZ is guy who makes a pass and climbs back up until he is out of icon range only to come backat the exact same alt that the first pass was. This usually takes the BnZ'er1-3 minutes depending on how aggressive he is. These are the ones that I dislike.
What I call the "E-fighter" is the guy who makes his pass and within a few seconds makes another. He never leaves icon range and leaves his prey no chance to get into a position to evade. These guys are the ones I love to fight. This causes never ending action and leaves a challenging aspect to the fight.
This is a very basic distinguishment between them I am sure it ismore complicated than that, but for me it is not.
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Not that I am extremely experiences with it, I find the dividing factor between BnZ and e-fighting to be the level of aggression.
What I call BnZ is guy who makes a pass and climbs back up until he is out of icon range only to come backat the exact same alt that the first pass was. This usually takes the BnZ'er1-3 minutes depending on how aggressive he is. These are the ones that I dislike.
BnZing is a gun pass with E and/or altitude whereby the attacker retains the energy relative to his opponent to egress with a vertical component to a point outside the effective gun range of his intended prey. That's it right there, nothing more, nothing less.
So, an aggressive BnZer, if evaded on his initial pass, could bore right back down for a followup pass before his prey could recover his position. The attacker could continue to do this until E states have equalized to the point he can no longer egress outside the effective gun range of his opponent. At that point it ceases to be BnZing...
To say BnZing is one pass followed by a run outside icon range for an eventual return is like saying fishing is dropping a baited hook into the water and coming back a week later to check for a fish to reel in...It may be a BnZ pass, but it's not actively BnZing and would cause the attacker to be so inneffective per unit time as to render him tactically insignificant...
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What people here are calling bnz, I call "One Pass, Haul Ass" (OPHA). Not always a bad idea, but hard to kill anyone awake doing that.
I don't hate people who bnz, i do however hate people who bnz poorly, without aggression.
Why? I hate it when people do it well and shoot me down.
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Those film I posted, I usually hangin around 4-5k. 20 min over target area for 16 kills and a few assist so I am averaging a kill every 1-2 minutes. I usually average about 12 kills per BnZ mission, sometime I've stretch it up to 26 kills w/o rearming in the D9. However, I try to go home after 12 kills, even if I still got 250 cannon rounds and 50% fuel left.I don't see the point of flying at high alt, not when the fight is OTD most the time. I'm a pretty aggressive BnZmer, though I'd almost never take a pass at one guy twice. I have about 90% success on kill on the first pass, so I usually never have to engage him again. If I do miss him then I'd immediately look for a different target because I know the guy I just miss will most likely be tracking me.
When I bnz I'm an opportunist, meaning I will always search for target no matter what I am doing. At times I took out 3-4 guys in 1 pass, 2 on diving down, and 2 on zooming back up. Since when I bnz I'm usually look around because people always appear in front of me for some reason O.o. Half of my BnZ kills are just target that pops out infront of me that I didn't intend to kill them until they present them self near my gunsight or in my flight path some how. That's how SA can help out so much. Usually if I am BnZming then there are a lot of baddies within the area. So target environment will always be rich.
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unless you're badly outnumbered locally, only then would you have to be somewhat more cautious.
That's a funny caveat, because most of the time when I have an energy advantage I am in enemey territory and outnumbered. To me, that just goes with the territory of getting altitude in the first place: if I am not outnumbered I get far too much respect with an altitude advantage and find it hard to get kills.
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Those film I posted, I usually hangin around 4-5k. 20 min over target area for 16 kills and a few assist so I am averaging a kill every 1-2 minutes. I usually average about 12 kills per BnZ mission, sometime I've stretch it up to 26 kills w/o rearming in the D9. However, I try to go home after 12 kills, even if I still got 250 cannon rounds and 50% fuel left.I don't see the point of flying at high alt, not when the fight is OTD most the time. I'm a pretty aggressive BnZmer, though I'd almost never take a pass at one guy twice. I have about 90% success on kill on the first pass, so I usually never have to engage him again. If I do miss him then I'd immediately look for a different target because I know the guy I just miss will most likely be tracking me.
When I bnz I'm an opportunist, meaning I will always search for target no matter what I am doing. At times I took out 3-4 guys in 1 pass, 2 on diving down, and 2 on zooming back up. Since when I bnz I'm usually look around because people always appear in front of me for some reason O.o. Half of my BnZ kills are just target that pops out infront of me that I didn't intend to kill them until they present them self near my gunsight or in my flight path some how. That's how SA can help out so much. Usually if I am BnZming then there are a lot of baddies within the area. So target environment will always be rich.
It's good that you are best thing since sliced bagels in this game. Drex or Levi would hand you your own arse before you knew it was gone.
If only we could be as good as you. :rock
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It's good that you are best thing since sliced bagels in this game. Drex or Levi would hand you your own arse before you knew it was gone.
If only we could be as good as you. :rock
For sure, I still got lots to learn in tnb. I'm not where I want to be with it, but I'm also not terribly bad at it. <--- still get my arse kick daily by skyrock, texture and better players so i can improve my tnb skill =)
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BnZing is a gun pass with E and/or altitude whereby the attacker retains the energy relative to his opponent to egress with a vertical component to a point outside the effective gun range of his intended prey. That's it right there, nothing more, nothing less.
So, an aggressive BnZer, if evaded on his initial pass, could bore right back down for a followup pass before his prey could recover his position. The attacker could continue to do this until E states have equalized to the point he can no longer egress outside the effective gun range of his opponent. At that point it ceases to be BnZing...
To say BnZing is one pass followed by a run outside icon range for an eventual return is like saying fishing is dropping a baited hook into the water and coming back a week later to check for a fish to reel in...It may be a BnZ pass, but it's not actively BnZing and would cause the attacker to be so inneffective per unit time as to render him tactically insignificant...
See that is why I call what you describe in first paragraph as e-fighting. It's main purpose is to try and maintain as much E as possible, whether it be in altitude or speedand leads. This being done in an aggressive manor is called a fight. This is the way that I interpret the training page description of both.
http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/bnz/bnz.htm (http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/bnz/bnz.htm)
http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/efight/efight.htm (http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/efight/efight.htm)
BTW some people call that fishing :lol
more seriously though the guys who leaves icon range only to come back after he regains his original alt advantage may not be tactically signficant for those base capture types, but in a 1vs1 he makes it very difficult to find a real fight. Isay this because it is very difficult to find a fight when he turns around after returning to 30,000 ft to make another pass while you are trying to leave the base for a real fight.
just my interpretation ;)
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more seriously though the guys who leaves icon range only to come back after he regains his original alt advantage may not be tactically signficant for those base capture types, but in a 1vs1 he makes it very difficult to find a real fight. Isay this because it is very difficult to find a fight when he turns around after returning to 30,000 ft to make another pass while you are trying to leave the base for a real fight.
:aok
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I don't think we hate it. However, if you have been playing this game for 5 years you tend to see the same guys always do the same thing over and over and over and over. It is boring and a waste of my $15. I don;t think any of the complains about BnZ, vuclhing, etc has anything to do with taking a base. But when in the middle of no where 2 51s show up and all they do is BnZ you for 10 minutes and then run it is a waste of time. When it gets funny is that usually, if they do get you, you find out that they are vets and very active on the BBS talking about dog fighting.
But I really don't think anyone has ever come to the boards crying about BnZ or vulching knowing that a base capture attempt was going on. Usually, that is just an excuse :lol
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In all honesty Dedalos I think you are right in your assessment that BnZing and vulching being a byproduct of base taking is an excuse. Most of the vulching during a base take is not brought to the bb's because in the end it serves a (to some) legitimate purpose.
When I referenced the Bnz'er with the base takers I was merely saying that the base takes are the only time the runners are insignificant.
But I think you are right in the fact that most of the complaints here on the bb's about the above subjects has nothing to do with base captures.
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I don't hate it.
I hate it when the BnZ'er loses that advantage to me; then just runs, and runs, and runs, and runs, and runs, and runs, until a fellow BnZ'er is there to do it again. Then the cycle repeats.
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See that is why I call what you describe in first paragraph as e-fighting. It's main purpose is to try and maintain as much E as possible, whether it be in altitude or speedand leads. This being done in an aggressive manor is called a fight. This is the way that I interpret the training page description of both.
http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/bnz/bnz.htm (http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/bnz/bnz.htm)
http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/efight/efight.htm (http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/efight/efight.htm)
BTW some people call that fishing :lol
more seriously though the guys who leaves icon range only to come back after he regains his original alt advantage may not be tactically signficant for those base capture types, but in a 1vs1 he makes it very difficult to find a real fight. Isay this because it is very difficult to find a fight when he turns around after returning to 30,000 ft to make another pass while you are trying to leave the base for a real fight.
just my interpretation ;)
In regards to your first couple of sentences... not necessarily. E fighting isn't always just trying to keep as much E advantage over your opponent as possible.
True E fighting is keeping an E differential between yourself and your opponent, and then exploiting that E differential to your advantage to gain a kill shot.
Ever hear of the term -E or negative E fighting? Goes along with +E or positive E fighting. -E is having less relative E then your opponent, and vice versa with +E. Both are equally important in an E fighting style, and once you're able able to manage yourself at -E and +E situations vs. your opponent you can (continuously switching back and forth as needed) go far enough as to perfect a very effective E fighting style that is hard to overcome.
It should also be noted though, that a true E fighter/ E fighter encompasses -E, +E, and Angles fighting aspects.
hoof
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In regards to your first couple of sentences... not necessarily. E fighting isn't always just trying to keep as much E advantage over your opponent as possible.
True E fighting is keeping an E differential between yourself and your opponent, and then exploiting that E differential to your advantage to gain a kill shot.
Ever hear of the term -E or negative E fighting? Goes along with +E or positive E fighting. -E is having less relative E then your opponent, and vice versa with +E. Both are equally important in an E fighting style, and once you're able able to manage yourself at -E and +E situations vs. your opponent you can (continuously switching back and forth as needed) go far enough as to perfect a very effective E fighting style that is hard to overcome.
It should also be noted though, that a true E fighter/ E fighter encompasses -E, +E, and Angles fighting aspects.
hoof
I agree with your assessment of my first couple of sentences.
I mis-spoke what I meant by that was maintaining as much E as possible without loosing other advantages present in the fight. The wording I had earlier lead exactly to what I call BnZ, giving up all other advantages in the pursit of "E"nergy. Thanks for catching that.
Not really sure what you mean by -E fighting or how that would work, with the exception of working to cause the overshoot, but yes you need to know how to play advantages over opponent whether you have more or less E than you opponent. This is a sign of a great fighter.
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Those film I posted, I usually hangin around 4-5k. 20 min over target area for 16 kills and a few assist so I am averaging a kill every 1-2 minutes. I usually average about 12 kills per BnZ mission, sometime I've stretch it up to 26 kills w/o rearming in the D9. However, I try to go home after 12 kills, even if I still got 250 cannon rounds and 50% fuel left.I don't see the point of flying at high alt, not when the fight is OTD most the time. I'm a pretty aggressive BnZmer, though I'd almost never take a pass at one guy twice. I have about 90% success on kill on the first pass, so I usually never have to engage him again. If I do miss him then I'd immediately look for a different target because I know the guy I just miss will most likely be tracking me.
When I bnz I'm an opportunist, meaning I will always search for target no matter what I am doing. At times I took out 3-4 guys in 1 pass, 2 on diving down, and 2 on zooming back up. Since when I bnz I'm usually look around because people always appear in front of me for some reason O.o. Half of my BnZ kills are just target that pops out infront of me that I didn't intend to kill them until they present them self near my gunsight or in my flight path some how. That's how SA can help out so much. Usually if I am BnZing then there are a lot of baddies within the area. So target environment will always be rich.
I only watched the first film, but that is what I call the typical late night Nit hoard. I know all countries are guilty of it, but it seems like it's always the Nit's that have 80% of their players milk hoarding a single enemy base for easy kills night after night. I have nothing aginst being at another base and BnZing them if the fight is close to even or you are at a disadvantage. The problem was you guys out numbered them and "could have" given them a more respectable fight.
That kind of hoard close to the base picking off low E cons isn't vulching but it's about as close to pulling wings off flies as you can get. If you are out numbered or trying to capture the base, then by all means cap the field if you can. However that kind of milk hoarding for easy kills is exactly why the fighting sucks so much these days.
I up at capped bases all the time if the cons are low but if it's late at night and it's the Nits, I don't even bother because I know they aren't there to actually fight, they just want easy kills. I can't stand that crap.
Yenny you have very good aim and gunnery, but seems like you are always just looking for the easy way to land a bunch of kills vs fighting and earning them. I guess to each their own, nothing wrong with getting some easy kills here and there hell I take them when I can get them, but try putting yourself in situations where you have to actually fight for the kills.
As a side note, it sure as hell shows how uber that damn 190 is in this game.. No way in hell could you dive in like that in a 109 "on" the throttle and pull back out with out face planting.
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See that is why I call what you describe in first paragraph as e-fighting. It's main purpose is to try and maintain as much E as possible, whether it be in altitude or speedand leads. This being done in an aggressive manor is called a fight. This is the way that I interpret the training page description of both.
BnZing is in fact one form of E fighting.
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I can't BnZ for chit...:lol
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I don't hate it.
I hate it when the BnZ'er loses that advantage to me; then just runs, and runs, and runs, and runs, and runs, and runs, until a fellow BnZ'er is there to do it again. Then the cycle repeats.
Well, if he fought you to a Co-E state and you were in a more maneuverable plane, how could you blame him? Give him credit for fighting you to a Co-E state, that shows tenacity right there. I can see the frustration of flying a relatively slow but maneuverable plane after you work a succession of BnZ'ers to a stalemate then end up with nothing to show for it, but that's the nature of the beast. I can never fault the guy who disengages me when I have the advantage. It's what he's supposed to do if he can. It's actually more of a challenge that way. A lot of people choose to fly a faster plane just for that reason, so they can force the fight upon another person. They will have to sacrifice some maneuverability to do so, which is of course the balancing act of air combat
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I agree with your assessment of my first couple of sentences.
I mis-spoke what I meant by that was maintaining as much E as possible without loosing other advantages present in the fight. The wording I had earlier lead exactly to what I call BnZ, giving up all other advantages in the pursit of "E"nergy. Thanks for catching that.
Not really sure what you mean by -E fighting or how that would work, with the exception of working to cause the overshoot, but yes you need to know how to play advantages over opponent whether you have more or less E than you opponent. This is a sign of a great fighter.
-E fighting encompasses using your opponents surplus of E (over you) against him. Your right in that -E fighting entails mostly creating overshoots, but it also plays a major part in the few moves before an overshoot, or in other words, is important for positioning yourself and setting your opponent up for said overshoot.
I could use my opponents extra E against him by 'losing' him in a turn, as his extra E would cause him to slip or lag behind me, although our relative positions at that time won't stay like that forever, and he/she will eventually be able to cut back inside my turn. Even with that, you are given a few seconds and a few more angles to work with, which could be used to transition into a scissors of some type or a barrel roll, and like you said, hopefully create an overshoot.
I'll try to think of a few more for you if you'd like, my mind is somewhat blanking right now.
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Oh, people don't hate BnZ.
People hate not getting a chance to win.
As.. if air combat was some sort of a "fair sport".
ps) Why not bring in a referee?
"Red team, BnZing, staying fast, extending when advantage lost ... minus 5,000 feet altitude!"
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(http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/7798/boomheadshotgif1ms.gif)
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Oh, people don't hate BnZ.
People hate not getting a chance to win.
As.. if air combat was some sort of a "fair sport".
ps) Why not bring in a referee?
"Red team, BnZing, staying fast, extending when advantage lost ... minus 5,000 feet altitude!"
Yup, that's a fact...Most people don't ride the edge very well though. There's a very fine line that's difficult to maintain. They are either too cautious and fail to kill effectively in a reasonable length of time or overcommit their E and get themselves into a compromising position.
Ironically, the example someone had earlier of the guy who worked a bandit to Co-E without being able to kill him then egressed had the balance correct, he just couldn't get the kill before he was forced to withdraw. Forcing a BnZer to Co-E then making him egress is a victory for the defender whether or not he is rewarded with a kill for his efforts.
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(http://img482.imageshack.us/img482/1293/chucknorrissmiley0bj.jpg)(http://img393.imageshack.us/img393/5424/clinte1vg1.gif)
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Well, if he fought you to a Co-E state and you were in a more maneuverable plane, how could you blame him? Give him credit for fighting you to a Co-E state, that shows tenacity right there. I can see the frustration of flying a relatively slow but maneuverable plane after you work a succession of BnZ'ers to a stalemate then end up with nothing to show for it, but that's the nature of the beast. I can never fault the guy who disengages me when I have the advantage. It's what he's supposed to do if he can. It's actually more of a challenge that way. A lot of people choose to fly a faster plane just for that reason, so they can force the fight upon another person. They will have to sacrifice some maneuverability to do so, which is of course the balancing act of air combat
Darn you Zazen! You are good sir. I don't blame them, I just hate it. LOL
Yes, in fact that is normally the case, I get that CO-e/alt state and then he/she disengages. I do not blame them for it, I just hate it. :D
I had a fight with Bruv in his spit and I was doing the BnZ'n in a pony. He did just what he was supposed to to get co alt co-e. I said, well dam I might as well just turn and fight and see what happens... Well what happend was I ended up in Davy jones locker. I gave em all I could, and we were Hangin on our props... Just the nature of the beast as you say.
<S> Zazen and Bruv of course. :aok
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-E fighting encompasses using your opponents surplus of E (over you) against him. Your right in that -E fighting entails mostly creating overshoots, but it also plays a major part in the few moves before an overshoot, or in other words, is important for positioning yourself and setting your opponent up for said overshoot.
I could use my opponents extra E against him by 'losing' him in a turn, as his extra E would cause him to slip or lag behind me, although our relative positions at that time won't stay like that forever, and he/she will eventually be able to cut back inside my turn. Even with that, you are given a few seconds and a few more angles to work with, which could be used to transition into a scissors of some type or a barrel roll, and like you said, hopefully create an overshoot.
I'll try to think of a few more for you if you'd like, my mind is somewhat blanking right now.
makes sense I just never put that title to it.
<S>
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Darn you Zazen! You are good sir. I don't blame them, I just hate it. LOL
Yes, in fact that is normally the case, I get that CO-e/alt state and then he/she disengages. I do not blame them for it, I just hate it. :D
I had a fight with Bruv in his spit and I was doing the BnZ'n in a pony. He did just what he was supposed to to get co alt co-e. I said, well dam I might as well just turn and fight and see what happens... Well what happend was I ended up in Davy jones locker. I gave em all I could, and we were Hangin on our props... Just the nature of the beast as you say.
<S> Zazen and Bruv of course. :aok
I hear ya. That's really the definition of being tactically surgical. Anyone who has the balance so perfect that they are engaged when they are at an advantage while always keeping an E reserve sufficient to disengage when they are not in a position of advantage are to commended, it's not as easy as it looks to maintain that balance. Unless you're one of those rare guys that can beat people of equal or greater skill with a less maneuverable plane and no other advantage, your only other viable option is to try to ride the razor blade of perfect surgical balance. I am personally not one of those people that can do that consistantly against equal or better players in more maneuverable planes. I can beat a weaker player than me like that, but not an equal or stronger one, generally. So, the smart money is on being as surgical as possible. I've been practicing flying surgically for 15+ years (the 1st 2-3 years I was a Spit/109 TnB dweeb) and I still screw up the balance on a regular basis and get wacked. I think most players would fall into that same category.
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I only watched the first film, but that is what I call the typical late night Nit hoard. I know all countries are guilty of it, but it seems like it's always the Nit's that have 80% of their players milk hoarding a single enemy base for easy kills night after night. I have nothing aginst being at another base and BnZing them if the fight is close to even or you are at a disadvantage. The problem was you guys out numbered them and "could have" given them a more respectable fight.
That kind of hoard close to the base picking off low E cons isn't vulching but it's about as close to pulling wings off flies as you can get. If you are out numbered or trying to capture the base, then by all means cap the field if you can. However that kind of milk hoarding for easy kills is exactly why the fighting sucks so much these days.
I up at capped bases all the time if the cons are low but if it's late at night and it's the Nits, I don't even bother because I know they aren't there to actually fight, they just want easy kills. I can't stand that crap.
Yenny you have very good aim and gunnery, but seems like you are always just looking for the easy way to land a bunch of kills vs fighting and earning them. I guess to each their own, nothing wrong with getting some easy kills here and there hell I take them when I can get them, but try putting yourself in situations where you have to actually fight for the kills.
As a side note, it sure as hell shows how uber that damn 190 is in this game.. No way in hell could you dive in like that in a 109 "on" the throttle and pull back out with out face planting.
Oh yea, I know I can do this all day and just about any plane. However, I don't. I'd do 2-3 BnZ run a day and that's about it. The rest of my time I'm in a K4 or a D9 some where OTD at TT. That was a base cap also, if you notice we took out ALL hangers, which was why the biship couldn't up and the Knight end up with having number advantage. I was just keeping planes down so that the buff mission could come in w/o much trouble.
BnZ missions for me are mainly for base capture only, so my goal is to try and remain air borne over the base as long as I can and provide CAP til either I'm bingo or dead.
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makes sense I just never put that title to it.
<S>
No prob.
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No way... that was going on well before any buffs came over. Alot of guys just got sick of upping because there really didn't look to be any hint of taking the base until an hour later when about six sets of buffs arrived. only the die hards and idiots like me stuck about to increase your K/D and destroy ours.
I don't quite know why you even bought this up...did you get some grief and feel a bit guilty or something. Man..... it is what it was. a New day will come tomorrow.
That is a very effective way to cap a field................. when land grabbing.
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No way... that was going on well before any buffs came over. Alot of guys just got sick of upping because there really didn't look to be any hint of taking the base until an hour later when about six sets of buffs arrived. only the die hards and idiots like me stuck about to increase your K/D and destroy ours.
I don't quite know why you even bought this up...did you get some grief and feel a bit guilty or something. Man..... it is what it was. New day.
That is a very effective way to cap a field................. when land grabbing.
We shut down the base by capping it, then our buffs arrive. Notice when I got to the fight til the buff arrived was 20 minutes. I'm just saying bnz is a good way to cap an air field for base capture. ^_^ what you want us to let those guys up? I think our goal was mainly just to take the base, not furballing.
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What people here are calling bnz, I call "One Pass, Haul Ass" (OPHA). Not always a bad idea, but hard to kill anyone awake doing that.
Why? I hate it when people do it well and shoot me down.
This why you dont succeed. Ive seen you with a lot of altitude and you zoom in with way too much speed to move your nose more then five degrees off your approach angle and then you zoom out to 6k before regrabbing (zooming). You attacked me once when I was out of ammo. I got you down to equal energy states and reversed on you easily because you dont intend to turn when you attack like that. Had I any ammo you would not have gone any further. You can learn when to slow down and still live. Let someone show you how to handle your plane nose high. Even SHawk has learned to do that now and he used to be a one pass-er.
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They are either too cautious and fail to kill effectively in a reasonable length of time or overcommit their E and get themselves into a compromising position.
True, Zazen.
In that lies the irony: people don't complain when they manage the latter case, and actually shoot the BnZer down. As a matter of fact, they are generally even pleased with themselves when they manage to do that. But when they meet someone in the former case, or not be able to kill someone despite dragging the fight to the latter, then they start complaining.
Hence, people do not complain about BnZ. They complain about not being able to kill someone.
Simply put, just like any other whine you see on the boards, its simply nothing but a sore expression of;
"If you had fought the way I'd liked you to have fought, I would have won. But since you don't fight the way I like, and you fight the way you like, I hate you for it."
What amazes me is most of these same people, give out advices in other posts like, "fly what you want" or "I fly the way I like - it's my 15 bucks".
Funny, eh?
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True, Zazen.
In that lies the irony: people don't complain when they manage the latter case, and actually shoot the BnZer down. As a matter of fact, they are generally even pleased with themselves when they manage to do that. But when they meet someone in the former case, or not be able to kill someone despite dragging the fight to the latter, then they start complaining.
Hence, people do not complain about BnZ. They complain about not being able to kill someone.
Simply put, just like any other whine you see on the boards, its simply nothing but a sore expression of;
"If you had fought the way I'd liked you to have fought, I would have won. But since you don't fight the way I like, and you fight the way you like, I hate you for it."
What amazes me is most of these same people, give out advices in other posts like, "fly what you want" or "I fly the way I like - it's my 15 bucks".
Funny, eh?
Yea, it has always been this way. Not everyone appreciates how disciplined you must be to pull it off properly. There is always the diametrically opposed factors of getting kills and not getting killed tugging at you. The former requires you to be very aggressive and the latter requires prudent discretion...For example...
Yesterday, Hand had some altitude with an F4U-D and he was doing a great job BnZ'ing. I am not sure how many he got before I killed him. But, he showed great discipline and for a while was engaging multiple cons in rapid succession with effective passes without giving up his E advantage. At one point, for a few minutes, he had five of us scrambling and ducking unable to gain any alt/E all by himself. I find it very impressive when someone does that and Hand and I chatted about it for a few minutes on 200 afterward. To me that is more what air combat is/was really about, using your advantages to maximum effect. I find what Hand did much more impressive than a Zeke pilot using his advantages by heaving around on his stick. It requires much more thought, discipline and SA to be a truly good BnZ'er.
The problem is, and the reason for this thread is that some ere too far on the side of caution so as to not get killed. You never hear about the countless others that ere the other way to attempt to get more kills and the BnZing predator becomes the victim of his prey. It is really true that everyone loves a pelt dispenser and no one likes a pelt miser, it's always been this way.
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It has now become a necesity to learn how to BnZ now. Personally, I never go past 5 or 6K, just because its not worth it, as you say. But latley its been worse and worse; alt monkeys in Hurri2Cs at 15 or 16K. spit14s at 20K, thats whats called picking and or score *horing. I take up an F4U at 5K and land 5 or more kills before I resupply or land them. I know that most fights are on the deck, and the some of the best score *hores on the game are at 7 or 8K in their spixteens or LAs.
They seem to make the game more fun when you own them from off their perch, just becasue they have no talent what so ever. I also love when the spixteen from the deck tries to climb to you, even if he somehow makes it up to you, in a F4U, its still hard for them to beat you, just because its one of the best turners in the game.
5K is not pickin, 20K is picking.
decipher please. :confused:
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decipher please. :confused:
"I'm waiting for my greatness to be recognized."
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(http://spams-ukwildcatbasketball.com/Lurking.gif)
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Ooh... Ooh... I know that one. I hate BnZ because he always argues with me on the BBs. ;)
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Ooh... Ooh... I know that one. I hate BnZ because he always argues with me on the BBs. ;)
:rofl
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Ooh... Ooh... I know that one. I hate BnZ because he always argues with me on the BBs. ;)
Good one.
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post deleted
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I don't hate BNZ. I hate the tools that run a sector and a half after I equal their E and turn back every time I turn around only to repeat this for 10-15mins. The same guy usually gets brave once I'm in a turn fight with a spit and swoop in for the pick 5 mins later only to run some more after the spit is dead.
I have no problem killing these guys once they run out of gas and floating down helpless.
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bnz works for people that don't have the skills to turn fight. if it works, have at it, but you're missing alot of the game by using that tactic. just my 2 cents
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I think the reference is "Bore and Snore"
I don't know that I hate BnZ. What I think is frustrating are the guys who hang over someone else's fight and run in at light speed hoping to pick while the other guy is busy. That's not surgical, only opportunistic, and often at the expense of a team mate who may be enjoying that fight only to have someone come down and take it from him.
Some guy in a high Tempest doing that is about as much fun to fight as a toothache.
That being said, if some guy up high finds my low 38G all by my lonesome, feel free to BnZ away. I'll do my best to avoid your passes, bleed off your E and frustrate you enough that you'll end up turning with me anyway :)
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I wouldn't say us BnZmer don't know how to turnfight, we might not be as good as the rest of the tnbner but we can usually do okay.
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I think the reference is "Bore and Snore"
I don't know that I hate BnZ. What I think is frustrating are the guys who hang over someone else's fight and run in at light speed hoping to pick while the other guy is busy. That's not surgical, only opportunistic, and often at the expense of a team mate who may be enjoying that fight only to have someone come down and take it from him.
Some guy in a high Tempest doing that is about as much fun to fight as a toothache.
That being said, if some guy up high finds my low 38G all by my lonesome, feel free to BnZ away. I'll do my best to avoid your passes, bleed off your E and frustrate you enough that you'll end up turning with me anyway :)
BnZ only fun in furball area, where there are a gazillion of people on each other's tail. It's dumb to BnZ a 1 v 1, maybe you can E fight. Rope the guy, w/ ur left wing pointin at him as you go up, so that as soon as he stall out. You would nose over and come straight at him, of course with that said you gotta be close to him at the same time to give him the shot to bait him to follow ya up!
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I think the reference is "Bore and Snore"
I don't know that I hate BnZ. What I think is frustrating are the guys who hang over someone else's fight and run in at light speed hoping to pick while the other guy is busy. That's not surgical, only opportunistic, and often at the expense of a team mate who may be enjoying that fight only to have someone come down and take it from him.
Some guy in a high Tempest doing that is about as much fun to fight as a toothache.
That being said, if some guy up high finds my low 38G all by my lonesome, feel free to BnZ away. I'll do my best to avoid your passes, bleed off your E and frustrate you enough that you'll end up turning with me anyway :)
Ditto :D
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Forgive my faulty memory BnZs I was thinking you were in a pony the last time I met you. I cant imagine who has a handle similar to yours but whoever I was thinking of was in a pony. I dont even remember when this fight happened. :D
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BnZ only fun in furball area, where there are a gazillion of people on each other's tail. It's dumb to BnZ a 1 v 1, maybe you can E fight. Rope the guy, w/ ur left wing pointin at him as you go up, so that as soon as he stall out. You would nose over and come straight at him, of course with that said you gotta be close to him at the same time to give him the shot to bait him to follow ya up!
I BnZ single cons all the time, it's called "bouncing". The best tactic is to under-commit on the first pass, presuming they see you, then use that information on how they behaved to get them on the 2nd attempt by anticipating what they will likely do.
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I BnZ single cons all the time, it's called "bouncing". The best tactic is to under-commit on the first pass, presuming they see you, then use that information on how they behaved to get them on the 2nd attempt by anticipating what they will likely do.
I mean, I use BnZ vs TnB planes when I am in D9. If it's 51,47, FWs, and tiffies, I'd just tnb them with my D9. If it's like spit and them other tnb plane, I'd sucker them into an E fight.
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I mean, I use BnZ vs TnB planes when I am in D9. If it's 51,47, FWs, and tiffies, I'd just tnb them with my D9. If it's like spit and them other tnb plane, I'd sucker them into an E fight.
Well BnZing is really just E fighting in its most lopsided form Energy wise. A lot of good E fights begin with BnZing and evolve from there as the energy disparity decreases.
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I am very sorry for the wording of my post then Chalenge, I will delete it. Just a misunderstanding. There is a "Bonz" who plays I believe. I haven't flown a pony this tour, and probably not the last one.
<S> and very Sorry for the misunderstanding.
Forgive my faulty memory BnZs I was thinking you were in a pony the last time I met you. I cant imagine who has a handle similar to yours but whoever I was thinking of was in a pony. I dont even remember when this fight happened. :D
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bnz works for people that don't have the skills to turn fight. if it works, have at it, but you're missing alot of the game by using that tactic. just my 2 cents
No, it really doesn't. It is much easier to get a kill from the saddle in a plane that turns as well or better than the bandit, than try to hit an evading bandit while coming in with greater speed. The ONLY reason to bnz/e-fight, rather than dump speed and get in the saddle, is if your plane cannot turn with the bandit plane long enough to get a kill or if commiting to that lone opponent is a bad idea, owing to other bandits possibly in the area with unknown numbers and E-states.