Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: SmokinLoon on August 29, 2008, 12:30:48 AM
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For starters, I think having perked aircaft is a good idea. However, I do believe that there are multiple planes that are perked that should not be and there are a few planes that are not that should be. Below is a few examples:
The Spit16 vs the Spit14. Very similar planes under 25k, with a slight edge going to the Spit16 under that alt (roll, turn, accel). Only at 25k+ does the Spit14 really seperate itself from the Spit16. Below 25k, not only is the Spit14 slightly lessor than the Spit16, it is very much on par with the Spit8 and Spit9. Unperk the Spit14 and/or perk the Spit16. Like many, I do not understand the logic behind perking the 14 and not the 16.
The La7. What other plane can go as fast, turn as sharp, accelerate as well, and be armed with three 20mm cannons? If HTC is into perking the top end rides, then this planes fits the bill.
The Nik2. The only thing it cant do is dive beyond 400mph. Otherwise this is another monster that can do it all very well. The four 20mm cannon have enough ammo to take down a CV (figuratively).
I for one do not think the P51D is a dominating plane. It have several weak points and unless the player knows how to take full advantage of its srengths the P51D isnt much more than just a fast plane with average firepower. Leave it as is. No perk needed.
Why HTC would perk any of the F4U-x is a mystery to me. When someone can pick up an La7/Nik2/Spit16 and so easily swing into action and do well, but yet everyone knows any of the "hogs" are not easy planes to fly in the least bit. They are fast and can carry some massive firepower and some good ords, but it turns like a hog in a livestock pen, rolls like a hog in the mud, and climbs like a fat lady on a ladder. So unperk both the F4U models.
One last thing: the ENY could use and adjustment. Maybe lower some of the planes that are dominating even further? Ditto for the OBJ modifier. There are planes that we meant to dive bomb and take out ground targets and they receive no more benefit vs something that wasnt meant to point anything at the ground. If a Mossi takes out a building, it should receive more of a OBJ modifier than an aircraft that had a sole purpose to shoot down bombers (109K-4, 190D-9, etc). There are a lot of aircraft that could benefit from a more accurate and true to their role scoring system. There are far too many "10 OBJ" modifiers.
A big question I have is why not adjust the ENY and OBJ scores based on monthly stats??? Rotate and/or adjust based on the usage and success. If the La7/Spit16/Nik2 continously dominate the arenas... that should say something.
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For starters, I think having perked aircaft is a good idea. However, I do believe that there are multiple planes that are perked that should not be and there are a few planes that are not that should be. Below is a few examples:
The Spit16 vs the Spit14. Very similar planes under 25k, with a slight edge going to the Spit16 under that alt (roll, turn, accel). Only at 25k+ does the Spit14 really seperate itself from the Spit16. Below 25k, not only is the Spit14 slightly lessor than the Spit16, it is very much on par with the Spit8 and Spit9. Unperk the Spit14 and/or perk the Spit16. Like many, I do not understand the logic behind perking the 14 and not the 16.
The La7. What other plane can go as fast, turn as sharp, accelerate as well, and be armed with three 20mm cannons? If HTC is into perking the top end rides, then this planes fits the bill.
The Nik2. The only thing it cant do is dive beyond 400mph. Otherwise this is another monster that can do it all very well. The four 20mm cannon have enough ammo to take down a CV (figuratively).
I for one do not think the P51D is a dominating plane. It have several weak points and unless the player knows how to take full advantage of its srengths the P51D isnt much more than just a fast plane with average firepower. Leave it as is. No perk needed.
Why HTC would perk any of the F4U-x is a mystery to me. When someone can pick up an La7/Nik2/Spit16 and so easily swing into action and do well, but yet everyone knows any of the "hogs" are not easy planes to fly in the least bit. They are fast and can carry some massive firepower and some good ords, but it turns like a hog in a livestock pen, rolls like a hog in the mud, and climbs like a fat lady on a ladder. So unperk both the F4U models.
One last thing: the ENY could use and adjustment. Maybe lower some of the planes that are dominating even further? Ditto for the OBJ modifier. There are planes that we meant to dive bomb and take out ground targets and they receive no more benefit vs something that wasnt meant to point anything at the ground. If a Mossi takes out a building, it should receive more of a OBJ modifier than an aircraft that had a sole purpose to shoot down bombers (109K-4, 190D-9, etc). There are a lot of aircraft that could benefit from a more accurate and true to their role scoring system. There are far too many "10 OBJ" modifiers.
A big question I have is why not adjust the ENY and OBJ scores based on monthly stats??? Rotate and/or adjust based on the usage and success. If the La7/Spit16/Nik2 continously dominate the arenas... that should say something.
I completly agree, I think that our Perk/OBJ is out of date, and should be one of the next things updated...
:salute
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Perk planes I cannt fight against, but leave alone planes I like to fly.
Fixed.
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the Chog is to be perked. I was there when it wasn't perked, and 90%Ļof the planes rolling from cvs were chogs.
The F4U-4 is to be perked also, else the F4U-1D and F4U-1A will see NO use.
I agree on the spit16/14 part, I asked a lot of times for the 14 to be unperked.
The 2 cannons la7 should be free, the 3 cannon one should be lightly perked as it barely saw combat in WWII (still waiting the ord perk system). You have to remember the la7 is very short legged and can only be used for base defense and is performing poorly over 7K, the 109K4 and Yak9u are superior in lots of aspects.
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SmokinLoon,
I am in complete agreement with your request. Nicely done.
Furthermore, newbies can still fly earlier Spits to learn how to fly and the score junkies may experience a hit (points) to maintain their illusion of skill.
WT
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If you unperk the C-Hog that's all you're going to see.
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Except for the part about the unperking the C-hog, I agree.
ENY values need to be redone so that they can change from month to month. The same goes for whether or not an aircraft is perked.
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Fixed.
Typical easy way out. Thanks for adding your idiotic sense of logic. It has nothing to do with "me". Stop and take a look around sometime. Perhaps you are one of those people who cant and wont fly anything else other than the uber planes? I rarely fly the P51D, btw. Strive for some balance and some continuity among the scoring system. Dont settle for the same-same the way sheep do.
Next.
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If you don't understand why the F4U-1C is perked I cannot fathom why you think the N1K2-J should be perked.
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For starters, I think having perked aircaft is a good idea. However, I do believe that there are multiple planes that are perked that should not be and there are a few planes that are not that should be. Below is a few examples:
The Spit16 vs the Spit14. Very similar planes under 25k, with a slight edge going to the Spit16 under that alt (roll, turn, accel). Only at 25k+ does the Spit14 really seperate itself from the Spit16. Below 25k, not only is the Spit14 slightly lessor than the Spit16, it is very much on par with the Spit8 and Spit9. Unperk the Spit14 and/or perk the Spit16. Like many, I do not understand the logic behind perking the 14 and not the 16.
The 14 goes 361mph on the deck. The 16 goes 344. The 14 is not a match for the 16 at low alt. It does not have to be. It could boom and zoom the 16s. More importantly, the 14 would run down and EAT the high-speed E fighters like the P-51D, Jug, Fw-190, 109G/Ks, especially at the medium-to-high alts they tend to fly to escape the La7 problem. Most things that cannot turn with the Spit16 can out-run it.
The La7. What other plane can go as fast, turn as sharp, accelerate as well, and be armed with three 20mm cannons? If HTC is into perking the top end rides, then this planes fits the bill.
I agree here. Most LW planes get less maneuverable as they get faster. The La7 does not. This is an airplane that is faster than everything at MA weed alts, this includes all prop-driven perk rides except the Tempest. While it is certainly not the best turner out there, nothing in its speed class turns anywhere near like the La7 does. The presence of this airplane probably worsens MA play, since many of the high-speed E-fighters simply cannot afford to get low and slow with it around, so you get a situation where the P-51Ds and 190s are always at 10K feet or 500mph when they are below it. Whereas otherwise, they could get t'n'b a bit and still be able to extend from the Spit horde when the time came.
The Nik2. The only thing it cant do is dive beyond 400mph. Otherwise this is another monster that can do it all very well. The four 20mm cannon have enough ammo to take down a CV (figuratively).
The N1K's top speed on the deck is 325 mph!!! Hardly screaming along, the old Fw-190A5 is faster. Its climb rate becomes pedestrian with a little alt. It actually does not out-turn the Spits IF both airplanes have gotten their flaps out. The four cannons are the rather sucky Japanese HO cannons. Awful roll-rate. No sale.
I for one do not think the P51D is a dominating plane. It have several weak points and unless the player knows how to take full advantage of its srengths the P51D isnt much more than just a fast plane with average firepower. Leave it as is. No perk needed.
If they fixed the P-51D's awful turning problems so that it would turn even so well as its stablemate the P-47, it might demand perking. If, as British testing affirmed, it turned slightly better than a Tempest, then it might surely demand a very light perk. But you are right, as is the Pony is second only to the Fw-190s in bad turning and doesn't need a perk right now.
Why HTC would perk any of the F4U-x is a mystery to me. When someone can pick up an La7/Nik2/Spit16 and so easily swing into action and do well, but yet everyone knows any of the "hogs" are not easy planes to fly in the least bit. They are fast and can carry some massive firepower and some good ords, but it turns like a hog in a livestock pen, rolls like a hog in the mud, and climbs like a fat lady on a ladder. So unperk both the F4U models.
Are you out of your everluvin' mind? The F4Us, with flaps, can turn a radius nearly as tight as a ZERO can without flaps!!!!! They can stay on the six of just about anything long enough to kill. The ONLY weakness of the Hogs is their poor weight-to-thrust ratio. The F4U4 changes that, and is almost certainly he best plane in the game. It runs 375mph on the deck!!! The C-Hog has one of the best a2a gun packages in the game, with tons of ammo. No one would fly any other Hog if these two were unperked. The F4U4 would render many other fighters, like the Ponyies and 190s, tee-totally obsolete in the MA.
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If you unperk the C-Hog that's all you're going to see.
You mean of Hogs, or planes in general?
'Cause I'm here to tell you, I think it deserves to be perked, but there are planes in the general population that are easier to fly and would probably remain more popular. Of all the perk planes we have going right now, I WOULD consider it the tamest.
This old "unbalancing the arena" saw based on some never-stated percentage of use hoakum or the highly problematic k/d stats annoys me. Perk'em or un-perk'em based on what they can DO, period.
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Are you out of your everluvin' mind? The F4Us, with flaps, can turn a radius nearly as tight as a ZERO can without flaps!!!!! They can stay on the six of just about anything long enough to kill. The ONLY weakness of the Hogs is their poor weight-to-thrust ratio. The F4U4 changes that, and is almost certainly he best plane in the game. It runs 375mph on the deck!!! The C-Hog has one of the best a2a gun packages in the game, with tons of ammo. No one would fly any other Hog if these two were unperked. The F4U4 would render many other fighters, like the Ponyies and 190s, tee-totally obsolete in the MA.
Right on. I just scrolled down to post something like this, but you've already got it.
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You mean of Hogs, or planes in general?
'Cause I'm here to tell you, I think it deserves to be perked, but there are planes in the general population that are easier to fly and would probably remain more popular. Of all the perk planes we have going right now, I WOULD consider it the tamest.
This old "unbalancing the arena" saw based on some never-stated percentage of use hoakum or the highly problematic k/d stats annoys me. Perk'em or un-perk'em based on what they can DO, period.
I agree it needs to be perked. That's what I said.
It would grow in use beyond the Hog drivers. It's a highly manouverable and very good plane with 4x20mm cannons. It would displace the N1K for sure along with many others. It would become the new king of the HO.
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I agree it needs to be perked. That's what I said.
Okay. There is a certain amount of opinion in favor of perking weaker planes that just happen to be popular (P-51D) and unperking planes that deserve perking just because the MA crowd hasn't take to them (Spit14). I was addressing that.
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It would grow in use beyond the Hog drivers. It's a highly manouverable and very good plane with 4x20mm cannons. It would displace the N1K for sure along with many others. It would become the new king of the HO.
I'm not so sure. N1K climbs and accelerates better, probably turns a bit better come right down to it. I consistently do better with a Seafire than a C-Hog right off the carrier deck, simply because with the C-Hog building up enough E to be effective takes longer.
But yeah, it would be the only Hog you'd see, it would replace the 110 as a town killer, the 190s as buff hunters, probably replace most P-47s in the A2A role, etc.
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The 14 goes 361mph on the deck. The 16 goes 344. The 14 is not a match for the 16 at low alt. It does not have to be. It could boom and zoom the 16s. More importantly, the 14 would run down and EAT the high-speed E fighters like the P-51D, Jug, Fw-190, 109G/Ks, especially at the medium-to-high alts they tend to fly to escape the La7 problem. Most things that cannot turn with the Spit16 can out-run it.
I agree here. Most LW planes get less maneuverable as they get faster. The La7 does not. This is an airplane that is faster than everything at MA weed alts, this includes all prop-driven perk rides except the Tempest. While it is certainly not the best turner out there, nothing in its speed class turns anywhere near like the La7 does. The presence of this airplane probably worsens MA play, since many of the high-speed E-fighters simply cannot afford to get low and slow with it around, so you get a situation where the P-51Ds and 190s are always at 10K feet or 500mph when they are below it. Whereas otherwise, they could get t'n'b a bit and still be able to extend from the Spit horde when the time came.
The N1K's top speed on the deck is 325 mph!!! Hardly screaming along, the old Fw-190A5 is faster. Its climb rate becomes pedestrian with a little alt. It actually does not out-turn the Spits IF both airplanes have gotten their flaps out. The four cannons are the rather sucky Japanese HO cannons. Awful roll-rate. No sale.
If they fixed the P-51D's awful turning problems so that it would turn even so well as its stablemate the P-47, it might demand perking. If, as British testing affirmed, it turned slightly better than a Tempest, then it might surely demand a very light perk. But you are right, as is the Pony is second only to the Fw-190s in bad turning and doesn't need a perk right now.
Are you out of your everluvin' mind? The F4Us, with flaps, can turn a radius nearly as tight as a ZERO can without flaps!!!!! They can stay on the six of just about anything long enough to kill. The ONLY weakness of the Hogs is their poor weight-to-thrust ratio. The F4U4 changes that, and is almost certainly he best plane in the game. It runs 375mph on the deck!!! The C-Hog has one of the best a2a gun packages in the game, with tons of ammo. No one would fly any other Hog if these two were unperked. The F4U4 would render many other fighters, like the Ponyies and 190s, tee-totally obsolete in the MA.
Like I said in my another post, a person simply can not hop into an F4U-x and fly it like that can a La7. If they take a F4U4 and have not learned the plane, and yes it does have a far longer learning curve than most planes, they wont do much better in it than if they were in a Tyhpoon. The F4U's are not a forgiving plane like the Spit16, La7, and Nik2 are. Oh, and I would hardly discount the NIk2's quad 20mm cannons. Your the first one I have ever heard say that they are sub-par. ;)
Also, I am not making a case for perking the "popular" planes. I am making a case for perking the planes that can perform at the highest level. Obviously, most players are going to take a plane that will give them an edge so they can see their names in lights. The better planes are obviously going to get used more. Some planes are popular only because of their legendary status. The P51D and Mossi Mk6 are obvious examples. Neither are tops in the game at what they do, but both are flown because they are well known.
Line the planes up. Look at the plane's in game abilities. Compare to the k/d ratio of game stats. Perk as needed. ALSO... dont forget that I am simply asking for a balacing system. Perhaps monthly or maybe 4 times a year, adjust the ENY, OBJ, and perk status of the planes and vehicles (M4 could use a higher perk, IMO). Right now... much of the system makes little sense, IMO. If the F4U's are unperked and they dominate the game like some say they will... then re-perk them. I dont think many will be able to master them like they need to be in order to make them effective.
Oh... and I have yet to outrun a Spit16 in my Spit14 'cept at 20k or higher. The Spit16 is a demon at low and med alts. ;)
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Lets perk the P38's too becuase there so easy for me. :cry
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Like I said in my another post, a person simply can not hop into an F4U-x and fly it like that can a La7. If they take a F4U4 and have not learned the plane, and yes it does have a far longer learning curve than most planes, they wont do much better in it than if they were in a Tyhpoon.
The F4U-4 is about as fast as the La7, turns ALOT better, retains energy better, and climbs about as well. It rolls well, and has 30 seconds of laser .50s to work with. If you don't understand that it beats the crap out of both he La and the Typh, then you just don't know.
The F4U's are not a forgiving plane like the Spit16, La7, and Nik2 are. Oh, and I would hardly discount the NIk2's quad 20mm cannons. Your the first one I have ever heard say that they are sub-par. ;)
Any F4U is far better and more forgiving in an angles fight than the LaLa. With the Spit, its closer, but the Spixteen is the E fighter in this matchup you realize. The Corsair will turn a smaller radius and is less unstable on the ragged edge. The Hog can out-dive and out-run the N1K, and turn well enough to kill the average N1K HO dweeb 1v1.
The Japanese Ho cannons are well below Hispanos and slightly below German MG/151s in effectiveness.
Oh... and I have yet to outrun a Spit16 in my Spit14 'cept at 20k or higher. The Spit16 is a demon at low and med alts. ;)
You believe HTC's speed chart is incorrect?
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BnZ,
The N1K2-J does not have "Ho" cannons. It has Type 99 Model 2s which are based on the Oerlikon 20mm cannon, but modified to be belt fed and have higher muzzle velocity. The last time they were tested in AH they hit just a fraction softer than the Hispano Mk IIs, significantly harder than the MG151/20s, ShVAK 20s, B-20s or Ho-5s. The muzzle velocity is about the same as the MG151/20/ShVAK/B-20/Ho-5, but the rate of fire is significantly lower than any other 20mm cannon.
The Ho-5 20mm cannon you keep dismissing does have a lighter hit than any other late war 20mm cannon, but it also has, by a significant margin, the highest rate of fire. The Ho-5 is based on the Browning machine gun design and is used in AH by the Ki-84, Ki-67 and Ki-61.
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Go to the MA if you don't think they are "Ho" cannons. :)
But, seriously, really? I felt like them and the Kraut cans were about the same.
Well, I knew they put-putted fairly slowly anyway. Point remains, N1K doesn't really need perking.
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I agree the N1K2-J does not need perking.
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The 14 goes 361mph on the deck. The 16 goes 344. The 14 is not a match for the 16 at low alt. It does not have to be. It could boom and zoom the 16s. More importantly, the 14 would run down and EAT the high-speed E fighters like the P-51D, Jug, Fw-190, 109G/Ks, especially at the medium-to-high alts they tend to fly to escape the La7 problem. Most things that cannot turn with the Spit16 can out-run it.
The Spit 14 is slower than the 109K at all altitudes and neck-and-neck with the P51D at most, slightly faster than the N-Jug at low altitudes and slower at high altitudes, doesn't pull away from the G14 until 4k, is slower than the 190D until 20k, and is slower than the La7 up to about 6k. It and the 16 are pretty much neck and neck as far as climb rate goes depending on the altitude, it is neck and neck with the 109K in climb rate the whole way up...
The Spitfire MkXIV is basically a 109K that turns better and has easier to shoot guns with the trade off of a very high torque engine and being slower. Hardly deserving of a perk IMO (and certainly less so than the Spitfire MkXVI).
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The Spit 14 is slower than the 109K at all altitudes and neck-and-neck with the P51D at most, slightly faster than the N-Jug at low altitudes and slower at high altitudes, doesn't pull away from the G14 until 4k, is slower than the 190D until 20k, and is slower than the La7 up to about 6k. It and the 16 are pretty much neck and neck as far as climb rate goes depending on the altitude, it is neck and neck with the 109K in climb rate the whole way up...
The Spitfire MkXIV is basically a 109K that turns better and has easier to shoot guns with the trade off of a very high torque engine and being slower. Hardly deserving of a perk IMO (and certainly less so than the Spitfire MkXVI).
What you are not elaborating on right there is how slight the difference in speed is in many of those cases. Only a slight dive needed to catch a P-51, Jug, G-14, or Fw-190 in typical configuration (With the centerline rack where a drop-tank was formerly attached in-tow).
Under the 109K, you forgot a big one, dive limited, and a little one, horrible, horrible, visibility.
Name a LW plane that is slower than the SpitXVI, and you'll usually be naming something that has at least rough parity with it in turn-fighting capability. But hey, you want to perk the Spixteen, go right ahead, you won't have to twist my arm too much.
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What you are not elaborating on right there is how slight the difference in speed is in many of those cases. Only a slight dive needed to catch any of the above.
That goes both ways... the Spit 14 isn't the only plane in the game capable of having an altitude advantage.
Under the 109K, you forgot a big one, dive limited,
Spitfires don't have great highspeed maneuverability either... and their wings rip off rather easily... I'd rather get a 109 fast than a Spitfire.
and a little one, horrible, horrible, visibility.
We're talking about the 109K... with the Erla-Haube canopy... visibility falls short of 'great', but it's not that bad. It's actually pretty good IMO.
Name a LW plane that is slower than the SpitXVI, and you'll usually be naming something that has at least rough parity with it in turn-fighting capability. But hey, you want to perk the Spixteen, go right ahead, you won't have to twist my arm too much.
How many A/C do you want me to name here to prove you wrong? Not only are there many planes that are slower than the Spit 16 that are also out turned, but these aircraft are out climbed and out accelerated as well.
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.How many A/C do you want me to name here to prove you wrong? Not only are there many planes that are slower than the Spit 16 that are also out turned, but these aircraft are out climbed and out accelerated as well.
Late-War airplanes. Its a tough plane no doubt. I've been looking at the charts. The P-38Ls and P-47Ds seem to be about the same in deck speed, slower in the 10K sweet spot, might be a problem there. Ki-84 seems to be in a similar boat. Ponys, 109G14, Doras, and P-47ns clearly faster. F4Us seem to be a little faster on the deck and can turn with it. 109G-2s, F6Fs, technically mid-war birds, inferior on paper but can turn well enough to stand a chance...
But you ARE making a pretty darn good case for perking the Spixteen.. Just don't take one step forward and two steps back by insisting in the same breath that the SpitXIV be unperked. :)
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But you are making a pretty good case for perking the Spixteen.. Just don't take one step forward and two step backs by insisting in the same breath that the SpitXIV be unperked. :)
I don't think that would be one step forward and two steps back. That would be taking two steps forward, looking back and saying, 'how could I tolerate standing there?'. Even just unperking the Spitfire Mk14 would be a good step forward.
BTW, although some of them are midwar birds, the 109G6, C.205, Yak9T, Ki61, P47D40/25, and all of the radial-engined 190's are both out turned and out run by the Spit16. For the most part they are out climbed and out accelerated as well.
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I don't think that would be one step forward and two steps back. That would be taking two steps forward, looking back and saying, 'how could I tolerate standing there?'. Even just unperking the Spitfire Mk14 would be a good step forward.
BTW, although some of them are midwar birds, the 109G6, C.205, Yak9T, Yak9U, Ki61, P47D40/25, La5FN and all of the radial-engined 190's are both out turned and out run by the Spit16. For the most part they are out climbed and out accelerated as well.
You are incorrect about the Yak-9U and La5FN. At least on the deck, both are clearly 350+mph fighters. The Spixteen is sub 350mph on the deck.
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D'oh, I was looking at the wrong line.
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I'm all for it except N1ks.
Their 4 20mms are like the 6 .50s on a 51. I can give the same burst to the same enemy plane and have the same results.
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Perk the Spixteen and unperk the fourteen. :aok
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Perk the Spixteen and unperk the fourteen. :aok
Perk an airplane I can skedaddle away from when it equalizes the E state on me in 2.5 seconds and unperk one a heck of alot harder to skedaddle from when it does the same thing...
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BnZ,
The fact that the Spitfire Mk XVI does not dominate the kill totals or the K/D ratios is a good indicator that it doesn't need to be perked.
The fact that the Spitfire Mk XIV is the least used perk plane and it has the lowest success of all perk planes by a huge margin, being unique in that some free planes have a higher K/D ratio, is a good indicator that it should not be perked.
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Typical easy way out. Thanks for adding your idiotic sense of logic. It has nothing to do with "me". Stop and take a look around sometime. Perhaps you are one of those people who cant and wont fly anything else other than the uber planes? I rarely fly the P51D, btw. Strive for some balance and some continuity among the scoring system. Dont settle for the same-same the way sheep do.
Next.
"idiotic sense of logic" is like asking to change things you dont ever understand, just because you dont like it, huh?
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The fact that the Spitfire Mk XVI does not dominate the kill totals or the K/D ratios is a good indicator that it doesn't need to be perked.
This assumes that pilot skill does not play a role in those stats, and that assumption is false. In terms of dogfighting performance the XVI is very perkable.
Perk an airplane I can skedaddle away from when it equalizes the E state on me in 2.5 seconds and unperk one a heck of alot harder to skedaddle from when it does the same thing...
The XIV is a whole different aircraft bnz. If mere top speed were enough to perk an airplane then I would share your concern.
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The fact that the Spitfire Mk XIV is the least used perk plane and it has the lowest success of all perk planes by a huge margin, being unique in that some free planes have a higher K/D ratio, is a good indicator that it should not be perked.
You don't think these states are misleading even a little bit???
I'm pretty sure the Fw-190 D9 will have a better k/d than the SpitXIV. Therefore, Fw-190D9>SpitXIV...wait...huh.
Or maybe because it is called a Spit and has a low perk price, it is the plane most likely to be upped by an inexperienced person and flown in a way contrary to its nature. (If it had a black cross on the wing and was dubbed the "Bf-309", I bet the k/d would be higher...seriously.)
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The XIV is a whole different aircraft bnz. If mere top speed were enough to perk an airplane then I would share your concern.
What am I missing Gav? Getting down to brass tacks, take your 190 F-8. Turns a lot worse, climbs worse, accels worse, than a Spixteen, and is just barely faster on the deck. Replace it with the SpitXIV, and now you have a plane which turns much better, climbs much bettter, etc, and is notably FASTER. What are you going to do against a pilot who knows what they are doing, throw your clipboard at'em?
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The XIV does not turn better than the XVI. You weren't saying that, right?
There are already plenty of aircraft that can rundown and outturn the 190F-8, so it doesn't concern me too much. I just think it's a much more challenging aircraft to fly than the XVI, and even a less capable furballer. The SpitXIV is really at its best when it's flown like a 51, and then it lacks the good roll rate that makes the 51 successful at diving attacks.
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You don't think these states are misleading even a little bit???
I'm pretty sure the Fw-190 D9 will have a better k/d than the SpitXIV. Therefore, Fw-190D9>SpitXIV...wait...huh.
Karnak isn't those stats to determine simply which plane is "better" than another one - this is hard to quantify anyway and depends on many variables. And PERK wasn't introduced for a different reason - HTC states it was made to "restrict the availability of otherwise unbalancing planes."
And to see if any fighter has indeed a unbalancing effect on the MA's, a look at the stats can indeed be very valuable. Overall, there are not that many Spit XVI's as people say and it isn't hasn't a more "deadly" effect than many many other fighters.
Indeed a good stick in a Spit XVI is a deadly opponent, but with that logic you will have to perk a lot more planes too. What about the 109K4? Fastest plane from 8-25k, still one of the fastest on deck, deadly cannon, best climber to alt in game. What about 109D9? Supreme picker, can easily run from a Spit XVI...
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Karnak isn't those stats to determine simply which plane is "better" than another one - this is hard to quantify anyway and depends on many variables. And PERK wasn't introduced for a different reason - HTC states it was made to "restrict the availability of otherwise unbalancing planes."
And to see if any fighter has indeed a unbalancing effect on the MA's, a look at the stats can indeed be very valuable. Overall, there are not that many Spit XVI's as people say and it isn't hasn't a more "deadly" effect than many many other fighters.
Indeed a good stick in a Spit XVI is a deadly opponent, but with that logic you will have to perk a lot more planes too. What about the 109K4? Fastest plane from 8-25k, still one of the fastest on deck, deadly cannon, best climber to alt in game. What about 109D9? Supreme picker, can easily run from a Spit XVI...
Unbalancing - the superlative undefined term.
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The SpitXIV is really at its best when it's flown like a 51, and then it lacks the good roll rate that makes the 51 successful at diving attacks.
Exactly. And it really doesn't matter at what altitude as long as you keep the speed up.
I personally think the XIV is a monster. I'd fly it all the time if it wasn't perked. It's in the ballpark with the fastest planes at almost every alt and turns better than all of them except maybe the LA-7. I love to run down Dora's, Ponies and LA's in the XIV. It might take about a 1-2K alt advantage at icon range though depending on the opponent and the alt.
And yes, a n00b jumps in a XIV and tries to fly it like a XVI which contributes to it's dismal stats. I know I did the first few times I flew it. I didn't get why it was perked. Now i get it.
As to perking the XVI... no. It's a great little plane but it's pretty fragile. Thank g@d for it's handling because you have to take extrordinary care to keep it out of someone's gunsights. It's not as fast as the fastest planes and doesn't turn as well as the dedicated turners. What it does have going for it is that it holds an exploitable advantage over any other plane in the set but when the odds go against it it's no better than anything else. A 2 on 1 against a dedicated turner and a fast B'n'Zer is near suicide in a XVI if the pair have any clue at all as to what they are doing.
Just my $0.02.
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Unbalancing - the superlative undefined term.
The other suggestions why to perk this and that are not more precisely defined ;)
Of course it's very arguable at what point unbalancing begins...but surely it's not a plane that hasn't more kills or any better K/D than it's supposed to stay unperked peers - it has not more impact on MA gameplay.
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My point is that unbalancing must not include arena stats as part of its definition, because arena stats are totally determined by the quality of pilots that fly the aircraft. For example, if the 262/tempest were only flown by 2 week noobs, it would not be unbalancing in the sense of arena stats, but no one would accept that as an argument for not keeping the 262/tempest perked.
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My point is that unbalancing must not include arena stats as part of its definition, because arena stats are totally determined by the quality of pilots that fly the aircraft. For example, if the 262/tempest were only flown by 2 week noobs, it would not be unbalancing in the sense of arena stats,
Trust me, it would. The Tempest usage would roar up and it's k/D, while dropping considerably, would still be vastly above the 16
That's exactly what happened back when there was no perk system at all. The F4UC was flown by "n00bs" to a large degree, but still dominated MA by sheer numbers and K/D.
But all in all, it doesn't matter. The 16 wasn't perked during the last 3 years and I don't see what could HTC suddenly start to think it should, particulary as there are less Spit 16's around than 3 years ago when I started :)
People yelled "perk the La-7" with more furor for a longer time and it didn't happen either ;)
Lusche out.
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Trust me, it would. The Tempest usage would roar up and it's k/D, while dropping considerably, would still be vastly above the 16
No, that's incorrect, and stay within the domain that I stipulated. I said "if the 262/tempest were only flown by 2 week noobs," the K/D would be pathetic then, likely under 1:1, and therefore not unbalancing by your definition.
That's exactly what happened back when there was no perk system at all. The F4UC was flown by "n00bs" to a large degree, but still dominated MA by sheer numbers and K/D.
When I say "2 week noobs" I mean 2 week noobs, not people in their first couple months or something comparable. I can make the point even stronger by restricting the domain to first day players. If it were only first day players that flew e.g. tempests and c-hogs, you would see their K/D ratio drop wayyyy below 1:1. That's why arena stats are not a sound way to define unbalancing. Any good definition of the term must not be so easily contradicted by thought experiments like this one.
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No, that's incorrect, and stay within the domain that I stipulated. I said "if the 262/tempest were only flown by 2 week noobs," the K/D would be pathetic then, likely under 1:1, and therefore not unbalancing by your definition.
When I say "2 week noobs" I mean 2 week noobs, not people in their first couple months or something comparable.
You are aware that no plane will ever be flown ONLY by "n00bs" so your argument has nothing to do with the realities of actual gameplay in MA at all??? So there is no point in your argument. Planes and their usagearen't existing in an artifical environment - MA gameplay is a reality.
The numbers do tell. Spit 16 has OVERALL no more impact than N1k, P51D. It's really that simple. As stated before the "but a competent pilot" arguement holds true for many more planes that would have to get perked for the very same reason, especially planes that are, unlike the Spit XVI! able to engange and disengage at will, like La7, 109K, 190D.
Any good definition of the term must not be so easily contradicted by thought experiments like this one.
Sorry... your thought experiments are not very... let's say "convincing" :)
And that was my final contribution to this thread. This time for real ;)
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You are aware that no plane will ever be flown ONLY by "n00bs" so your argument has nothing to do with the realities of actual gameplay in MA at all??? So there is no point in your argument.
Good strawman. You need to try harder to interpret my words more charitably, otherwise you don't address my argument.
It's a thought experiment. Thought experiments are very useful ways to test definitions, and so the point is to show that this definition of unbalancing is poor. Moreover, the relevance to gameplay is obvious: K/D ratios for aircraft are always going to be skewed by the quality of their pilots. The exaggerated hypothesis I offered was an heuristic device to bring that under sunlight; the difference between reality and hypothesis was a matter of degree.
Let's put it this way. Your definition of unbalancing and its practical value only holds true under such a narrow range of circumstances, i.e. equal pilot ability in all cases, that I'm finding it hard to understand why it was ever put forward in the first place. I've said it before and I'll say it again, the only satisfactory way to determine which aircraft are perked is objective performance stats, and there might be multiple sets of stats that could be used for that purpose. Set the standards, and let the chips fall where they may.
Sorry... your thought experiments are not very... let's say "convincing"
Can you tell me why? I fail to see how your definition is not contradicted by my thought experiment. If we are not willing to align our beliefs with the outcome of this kind of logical analysis, then we aren't being rational.
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I was wondering if perking the planes would help for a different reason, with horde mentality. Give all planes but the worst a perk. Otherwise guys just up planes fly into a furball ho or pick three or so planes then they die because they have no acm skill or don't understand E. I was thinking it would help most guys be more cautious.
On perking the spits I have been flying the spitV a lot lately and it takes a very good pilot to kill me. Even if they are in the zero. The point is if your going to perk spits you might as well perk the V because I can kill just about anything in it.
My thoughts were that it might be a good idea to give everything a perk value, but for different reasons.
S ALL
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The fact that you can paint a scenario in which Tempests are slaughtered by P-40Bs does not make that a useful scenario to argue anything. The fact is that the Spitfire Mk XVI is flown by vets as well as noobs and it does not dominate even so.
The Tempest, which you argue only does so well because it is flown mostly by vets, would also do very well if flown by a mix of vets and noobs, just like the F4U-1C did when it was free. Make no pretensions about that time, the F4U-1C was, by far, the most common aircraft used and it was used by the same crowd that uses the Spitfire Mk XVI and N1K2-J now, so many noobs and some vets.
The Spitfire Mk XIV, despite being perked and thus limited to players who should be technically better, fails to match the K/D ratio of some free planes that have their K/D numbers pulled down by inexperienced noobs. There is no other unbiased metric that we have to use as an indicator besides usage and K/D ratios. The Spitfire Mk XIV is essentially unused as a perk plane and has a appalling K/ ratio for a perk plane.
The Spitfire Mk XIV should be unperked just as the Ta152H-1 was. If it were to then dominate as some here suggest it would be very easy to then reperk it, but I would personally be shocked if it were to even match the usage of the Spitfire Mk VIII let alone the Mk XVI.
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You're crazy, unperk the F4U's, perk the Nik? Yeah the Nik is a dweeb plane, but many planes can beat it. If you unperk the chog, that's all you'd see. If you unperk the -4, you'd never see the A hog or D hog again.
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<SNIP>
The Spit16 vs the Spit14. Very similar planes under 25k, with a slight edge going to the Spit16 under that alt (roll, turn, accel). Only at 25k+ does the Spit14 really seperate itself from the Spit16. Below 25k, not only is the Spit14 slightly lessor than the Spit16, it is very much on par with the Spit8 and Spit9. Unperk the Spit14 and/or perk the Spit16. Like many, I do not understand the logic behind perking the 14 and not the 16.
<SNIP>
agreed here.
as far as the la goes, its not as uber as it used to be. doesnt excelerate as fast, it takes a wee bit of skill to fly well, but once you learn it its uber. as for its cannon's it isnt as good as the typhoon or tempests 4 hizooka cannons.
the hogs are perked not because theyre uber, but because they have a slight advantage over other planes. the f4u1c has 4 cannons that rip chiit apart, and, if flown well, is buetiful for picking with those 800+ rounds of cannon. the f4u4 is perked because of the hog family its the best over all. guns are average for the hogs, but its the fastest, rolls best, turns best, over all is the best hog, i think the f4u4 and f4u1c have an appropiete perk to them.
the thing you posted about the pony i also agree, but, in the case of the 412th, they should be perked, they just fly the ponies soooo well, its almost unbelievible.
You're crazy, unperk the F4U's, perk the Nik? Yeah the Nik is a dweeb plane, but many planes can beat it. If you unperk the chog, that's all you'd see. If you unperk the -4, you'd never see the A hog or D hog again.
agreed here also.
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"idiotic sense of logic" is like asking to change things you dont ever understand, just because you dont like it, huh?
Wrong again. I understand it perfectly and it has nothing to do with my likes or dislikes of the aircraft we fly. It has everything to do with bringing some continuity and logical transgretion to the game. Perhaps that is something you do not understand and care not to learn, "huh"? You must be one of the sheep I mentioned earlier. Do as told and dont stop to look around and ask questions.
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as far as the la goes, its not as uber as it used to be. doesnt excelerate as fast,
Several times this has come up, and if I remember correctly, each time the HTC staff has said that they have NOT changed the performance of the La-7.
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The XIV does not turn better than the XVI. You weren't saying that, right?
No, it just turns better than almost everything unperked that will break 360mph on the deck.
There are already plenty of aircraft that can rundown and outturn the 190F-8, so it doesn't concern me too much.
You don't think that 190 A8/F8 vrs. SpitXIV MIGHT be a slightly different kettle of fish than 190 vrs. P-51, P-47, 109, Dora, etc? :)
I just think it's a much more challenging aircraft to fly than the XVI, and even a less capable furballer. The SpitXIV is really at its best when it's flown like a 51, and then it lacks the good roll rate that makes the 51 successful at diving attacks.
Furballing on the deck, you'd probably wish for any other Spit, yes. But plane choice is like paper, rock, scissors, now isn't it? The SpitXIV (like the La-7, I will add), is IMO is the "paper" to too many other "rocks" in the LW plane set to be an unperked ride.