Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: MjTalon on August 31, 2008, 06:56:04 AM
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I feel like I'm the only one flying besides my squadron on rook nation. Any other P47 fans/pilots/squadrons on the dark side? :O
Would see if we could put something together but i know J.U.G.S is supposed to be flying today i think. Any P47 pilots squadless atm? Just wondering.... :D
Also if there is a JUGS meeting today i have something special planned. :rock
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Only plane I've been flying for some 2 years....lol some camps better than others. There's a few others, but the 56th has sort of gone by the wayside, and many of their members have joined the evil K4-flying Muppets :furious
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P47 pilot right here :aok
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I believe though im not 100% sure that its an off week for JUGS. We meet every other sunday, if you want the time it starts pm ledragon because ive kinda forgotten. :D Good luck with ur recruiting.
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P47 are ruthlessly run down and ganged by waves of of enemy ....p51's and La7's run them down and make them go defensive...then the spit 16's finish the job ...then the enemy get on ch200 and crow about how cool they are ......booooooo
....The LW arenas are so lame these days ....I for one am very tired of this ....I'm am forced to fly p51's so I can blend in and have any chance of survival ....I miss flying P47's ....It is such a crushing bore to have to fight the same plane types every mission P51/La7/Spits ....yawn
Helm ...out
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Talk to Hajo.
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I love the jug...in fact last night I got my first 262 in a razorback jug. Had to go take a cold shower afterwards!
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many of their members have joined the evil K4-flying Muppets :furious
Evil? whatever do you mean? :angel:
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We kill people.. not evil enough?
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I'll admit, i was apart of that Evil-K4 flying club but I've found the light with the P47. It's sheer versatility has alot of advantages that the K4 doesn't and i have alot more options with the P-47 as in mission selection ( Ground attack, Close air Support, High Alt escorting, Jabo runs ).
Here is a run me and my squadron wingman just did. it was a C.A.S and we've only been flying together for a week. Notice how my wingman knows his position and is always near me.
http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=3343e243c5ffb637d2db6fb9a8902bda
Hope this makes some jug pilot's inner fire spark again! If you like whatcha see and would like to be apart of the 368th, just drop me a pm ;).
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Evil? whatever do you mean? :angel:
#%#%%$ K4's are the scourge of all that is good and just in the world :mad:
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P47 are ruthlessly run down and ganged by waves of of enemy ....p51's and La7's run them down and make them go defensive...then the spit 16's finish the job ...then the enemy get on ch200 and crow about how cool they are ......booooooo
....The LW arenas are so lame these days ....I for one am very tired of this ....I'm am forced to fly p51's so I can blend in and have any chance of survival ....I miss flying P47's ....It is such a crushing bore to have to fight the same plane types every mission P51/La7/Spits ....yawn
I routinely see my knight countrymen ignore higher P-51s and Spits in order to dive on and gang a low P-47; and that goes double if the P-47 is already engaged with a single bandit.
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#%#%%$ K4's are the scourge of all that is good and just in the world :mad:
:devil
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I routinely see my knight countrymen ignore higher P-51s and Spits in order to dive on and gang a low P-47; and that goes double if the P-47 is already engaged with a single bandit.
Well...that DOES give said jug pilot an initial advantage, as most folks who would ignore a higher con to get an 'easy' kill are likely not too versed in SA, and assuming any jug is an easy kill just makes it worse
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Well i routinely fly with my wingman so I'm never alone in a P-47 ( majority if i'm alone i'm flying the D11 ). But i don't let it bother me if i fly solo, I always keep my SA and my speed above 300. And also i train my squadron in proper and effective wing tactics to make there survival in the P47 increase.
But yes when people see a low jug they automatically assume it's a novice stick behind it. The 368th FG plans on changing this view... It won't be easy but we are determined to restore the P47s reputation.
:salute
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It's not that they assume the pilot is a novice, it's that they assume that even if the pilot is good, a low and slow jug is an easy kill. In fact, the assumption has some merit, doesn't it?
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It's not that they assume the pilot is a novice, it's that they assume that even if the pilot is good, a low and slow jug is an easy kill. In fact, the assumption has some merit, doesn't it?
Not necessary. If the P47 even has at least 5k Alt she's still a threat. But in the hands of a novice, a low and slow jug is in fact a easy kill.
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It's not that they assume the pilot is a novice, it's that they assume that even if the pilot is good, a low and slow jug is an easy kill. In fact, the assumption has some merit, doesn't it?
Not necessarily true, but often true.
Of course, as another alluded to, its not really the 109s and 190s that make life difficult for a Jug down low-on any given day a Jug stands a good chance with either. It is more the planes the Jug never historically had to fight anyway and lots of them that give the jug difficulty. Dumping E to force a scissoring fight with a pursuer? Works okay, Jug is incredibly stable near its stall speed with flaps down. The fast mover you just made overshoot isn't the problem, the horde of Spixteens and N1Ks behind him is.
I think the P-47M should be made available as a perked, or maybe even an unperked ENY 5 plane and the P-47N's ENY should be raised to 8, just to bring more 47s into the LW MA.
Funny story. The other day a large group of P-47D-11s came over to attack Knitland. Now these guys were no 56th, and even though they had some alt, they quickly lost advantage and got slaughtered. Thing is, TWO of the ones I took down were shot further and stolen as they were spinning into the sea. Really demonstrates the pirhanna mentality another poster alluded to.
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I fly one every now and then. Even practiced in one the other day. I like it. However some planes are better at other things. I still respect a good stick in a p47.
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I think the P-47M should be made available as a perked, or maybe even an unperked ENY 5 plane and the P-47N's ENY should be raised to 8, just to bring more 47s into the LW MA.
That the P-51 has an ENY of 8 and the P-47N an ENY of 5 is proof that ENY values need to be redone.
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I routinely see my knight countrymen ignore higher P-51s and Spits in order to dive on and gang a low P-47; and that goes double if the P-47 is already engaged with a single bandit.
That's the best thing about the jug - Your pray comes to you.
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I feel like I'm the only one flying besides my squadron on rook nation. Any other P47 fans/pilots/squadrons on the dark side? :O
Would see if we could put something together but i know J.U.G.S is supposed to be flying today i think. Any P47 pilots squadless atm? Just wondering.... :D
Also if there is a JUGS meeting today i have something special planned. :rock
Hey Talon, I'm a pretty big P-47 fan. I usually fly the P-47D25 now as it is my squads historical plane and their historical skin. If you're willing to do it, one day out of the week, we could all get together and fly. :aok
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Jug does many things well.....including out turning G6 and up BF 109s. It only does one thing great and that is Zoom Climb.
The Jug also out turns a P51. As well as 190s.
A low Jug that has some speed is a dangerous Jug.
By sheer mass if at same speed anything that pulls up to outclimb it will get run over shortly...watch for the overshoot if you;re in the Jug.
You'll end up in front of your prey in their sights.
Be patient in it. Don't ask it to do something it can't. Dictate the fight, don't be forced into fighting the other crafts fight.
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MjTalon. I'm not hiding. 85% of the time I'm smacking spits and niks around in my -D40. I'm ususally this guy...
routinely see my knight countrymen ignore higher P-51s and Spits in order to dive on and gang a low P-47; and that goes double if the P-47 is already engaged with a single bandit.
and always willing to demonstrate what two good Jugs can do as wingmen. I'm a member of the J.U.G.S. but can't ever get up on Sundays because of schedule conflicts.
Anytime you see me up, Just give me a holler and I'll be happy to wing up with ya.
LilMak
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Jug does many things well.....including out turning G6 and up BF 109s.
:huh
You must be talking about speeds above 250mph. 200mph and slower the 109 series eats P-47s for a light snack. :devil
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It only does one thing great and that is Zoom Climb.
I don't think it betters a Pony, Hog, or La7 here. I did some testing on some planes awhile back. These were the F4U-1A, the 109K4, the 190D9, La7, P51D, P38J, and P47N. My procedure was to dive until I was skimming the waves, level until the speed bled down to 400mph IAS, then do a 4-G pull up until straight vertical, then use shift-X to hold the planes there until they ran out of airspeed and stalled. I don't remember the exact numbers off hand, but I do remember that everyone of these planes zoomed back up to between 6000-6700 before the stall. Is this right? Something wrong with my procedures? I would have thought there would be more spread than this in zoom climb.
The Jug also out turns a P51.
True, but of course you realize this is a product of a bug with the Mustang's turning. Both Allied testers and Axis combat pilots are clear on the point, the Pony could turn tighter than the Jug. No offense to Jug fans, think this bug has been around long enough and needs to be fixed.
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I don't think it betters a Pony, Hog, or La7 here. I did some testing on some planes awhile back. These were the F4U-1A, the 109K4, the 190D9, La7, P51D, P38J, and P47N. My procedure was to dive until I was skimming the waves, level until the speed bled down to 400mph IAS, then do a 4-G pull up until straight vertical, then use shift-X to hold the planes there until they ran out of airspeed and stalled. I don't remember the exact numbers off hand, but I do remember that everyone of these planes zoomed back up to between 6000-6700 before the stall. Is this right? Something wrong with my procedures? I would have thought there would be more spread than this in zoom climb.
True, but of course you realize this is a product of a bug with the Mustang's turning. Both Allied testers and Axis combat pilots are clear on the point, the Pony could turn tighter than the Jug. No offense to Jug fans, think this bug has been around long enough and needs to be fixed.
Try pushing the nose over till 0 g is reached and report back. :D
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Try pushing the nose over till 0 g is reached and report back. :D
A plane proceeding straight up IS already unloaded, producing no lift, thus the meter registers 0. The wing is no longer oriented to oppose the force of gravity. If the wing is producing any lift at all at this pitch attitude, then it is not going straight up, it is starting to gradually loop over. Combat trim seems to want to trim the plane to pull 1G of lift all the time, so if you are zooming straight up with CT, you have to actually hold a little forward on the stick or use shift+X to avoid this.
Is there any place where the flat-plate drag equivalents for various WWII airplanes are listed? It would be interesting to compare their weight/total drag ratios.
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OK don't believe me. Your choice.
And yes slow a P47 will out turn half the 109s and all the 190s. It will also out turn a P51.
Best talk to widewing about that gents. He did the tests to verify that fact.
And in the Zoom the P47 will out zoom anything strictly because of it's mass.
Basic Physics gents and also proven.
If you're flying the P47N model you are at a handicap below 30K. And if you're flying it 30K you are a Rook looking for a pick...or have been afk for over 15 minutes. The N is a dog below 20K and has the worst climb rate of all the Jugs below 20K.
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Hajo what would you say is the best out of the three (D11, D25, D40) in the zoom from say 8-15K?
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OK don't believe me. Your choice.
And yes slow a P47 will out turn half the 109s
No, I am glad you believe it. :t :D
Seriously, I have had many stall fights in the 109G-6 vs D-11s in the ava (only place where you're likely to get that matchup), and I am yet to lose one, especially when the fight got low and slow on the deck.
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No, I am glad you believe it. :t
I'd go even further and hope that he can lead as many Jug pilots as possible to believe that too.
Most of them will try it only halfheartedly and then they will go boom ;)
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Spikes the D40.....simply for the Horse Power.
The N-Jug was designed for the Pacific theater. It is loaded with extra fuel tanks for better range.
The M-Jug was designed for the ETO. I was slightly faster then the N-Jug.
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Gents I've proven it. Done it more then a few times ;)
Oh....and I usually won't pick, I'll only enter a fight to make it even. And I ask if help is needed.
You can check though. I rarely check my score....but for this I did.
P47D40 95 kills I think 16 or 17 deaths.
But what do I know.....I just have fun :aok
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OK don't believe me. Your choice.
I not have to "believe" you, I already understood that an airplane unloaded to 0 G has the least drag. That is why I mentioned when I was doing this, the G needle was on 0. Nothing but inertia+thrust from the prop vrs. gravity.
And in the Zoom the P47 will out zoom anything strictly because of it's mass.
Basic Physics gents and also proven.
Not quite. The relationship of the airplane's mass to it's drag is the important part. Even in the realm of ballistics, the more aerodynamically-slick pointed bullet will retain energy better downrange than a round nose, assuming all other variables are equal. (Some ammunition manufacturers have recently developed rifle ammunition with pointed plastic nose cones that can safely be loaded in tubular magazine lever-actions for this very reason.) That is why I wanted information relating to the flat plate equivalents for various a/c.
Also, thrust from the engine probably plays a factor in there somewhere. :)
And yes slow a P47 will out turn half the 109s and all the 190s. It will also out turn a P51.
The 109s are the bone of contention, not the P51s and 190s. Someone needs to check DokGonzo's on this.
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If any jug pilot here can regularly beat a decent stick in a K4, I'll drive to whatever state he lives in and mow his yard :aok
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If any jug pilot here can regularly beat a decent stick in a K4, I'll drive to whatever state he lives in and mow his yard :aok
Who picks the alt? :devil
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No one in game can regularly beat anyone. Believe me from experience. What I am basically saying is.
Don't underestimate a P47. It can take you by souprise. It turns better then most think, and if the K4 is 20K
and the Jug is also (D Model) it's a fair fight. Generally if you are fighting in a furball otd with more then a few planes,
the first to be shot will be the Jug by someone entering the fight from a little higher. But try the Jug otd....drop the flaps.
Toad and I have fought otd he in a Yak and me in a D11. I got the Jug so slow he augered. Yep....the jug was still flying
but with lots of rudder input to keep from dropping a wing. 4 notches of flaps do wonderful things.
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The N-Jug was designed for the Pacific theater. It is loaded with extra fuel tanks for better range.
I believe this fact has actually caused some confusion in regards to the P-47 D-40's and the P-47N's climb rate. The difference is not as drastic as it would appear.
On the official HTC test charts, both Jugs appear to have been tested at weights consistent with 50% fuel for both. But the N-Jug carries much more fuel. According to the E65, the N-Jug has almost exactly the same flight time at Military power (57 minutes, burn set to 1) with 50% fuel as the D-40 does with 75% (61 minutes.)
Testing them clean, at Military power, with the same gun package (8 M2s, 267rpg), with 50% fuel for the N, and 75% for the D-40, on autoclimb right off the airport at sea level, I got a ROC of just under 2,200 FPM for the N as soon as it settled down, compared just just under 2,500 FPM for the D-40.
Repeating the process on WEP, both aircraft settled down to climbing at around 3,280 FPM.
<S>
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Who picks the alt? :devil
Yea my -D40 vs any 109 @ 25+K. :lol
Seriously though. Certain 109s give me fits and others rarely beat me in my Jug. The hardest 109s seem to be the F and K. As always, it depends on pilot skill but these are my general observations.
The K is simply a helicopter that has double the climb rate of the jug. Unless the fight is above 20K the P47 is almost always at a disadvantage (which equals 99.99% of the time in the MA). Turning radius has nothing to do with fighting a 109-K because it can just hang on it's prop and wait until you do something stupid. Also the 30mm tater will most certainly bring the most hardy of planes down with a single round and the monster Jug is an easy target compared to other fighters. Often I can survive a snap shot from a 20mm armed 109 but a 30mm will take off parts that are critical to the outcome of the battle.
The 109-F is the wolf that gets me because it doesn't need nor rarely does it fight like any other 109. It can turn very well and by the time I get close enough to realize that it's not the typical 109, I'm already in trouble and need to rethink my attacks and defense. I think that the sticks that fly -Fs are usually above average or better.
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I'm currently about to pop online for a bit and start up with the squadron, lilmak i'm rooks so if you still would like to wing a bit, by all means catch me online.
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<--Member of the 56th that joined the evil K4 flying Muppets someone mentioned earlier..
<---Flies K4's AND jugs...
and no Jugs will not outturn a K4.
Have a nice day. :aok
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We are here Talon, many questions to answer, today was an off week, we meet next week on Sunday at 2pm EST. Lilmak is a great stick and flies Rook too. Trukk is the best wingman I ever had, sticks to me like paint. Look him up too, also a rook. Majissue is also a good Jug pilot, but not normally rook. I love the 25 for most sorties, but have more luck with the 11 or 40. As to the K4 thing, bring it on all. Halo, we could use another good stick next Sunday if your interested. We meet in the TA and then check the maps to dicide if we will be running fighter or jabo and for which country as we are neutral. Boxboy, BobTom, Stodd, Redlegs, Caz, WWhiskey, all of ya get a <S> I know I'm forgetting a lot of the regular JUG pilots, but I'm going to blame it on the fact that I spent all day yesterday in the hot sun watching the Cleveland Air Show and today I was in the yard burning any part of my body that didn't get enough sun yesterday. FYI, beer does make sunburn feel better. :lol
5pointO, it would be nice if you could join us for a ride.
On another note, I did check the flight training schools and am considering sending LilDragon and I to get our private pilot licenses. Ouch. I had a chance to get mine a few, well a lot of, years ago through the scouts and I didn't complete it, biggest mistake of my life I think.
Looking forward to next week. See ya'll in the TA at 1:45.
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found them!
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg229/WWhiskey/ahss8.jpg)
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I forgot about that day, love the pic WWhiskey.
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<--Member of the 56th that joined the evil K4 flying Muppets someone mentioned earlier..
<---Flies K4's AND jugs...
and no Jugs will not outturn a K4.
Have a nice day. :aok
Shut up Banana head :D
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<--Member of the 56th that joined the evil K4 flying Muppets someone mentioned earlier..
<---Flies K4's AND jugs...
and no Jugs will not outturn a K4.
Have a nice day. :aok
Thank you. If you beat Platano in his K4, I will drive to BFE and mow your yard (hurry, as Summer's Almost Gone)
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Toad and I have fought otd he in a Yak and me in a D11. I got the Jug so slow he augered. Yep....the jug was still flying
Let me know if you'd like to try out a D11 otd against a Yak T sometime. Theoretically only advantage I'd have is slight advantage in turn rate and the 37mm. :D
<S>...-Gixer
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If nothing else, a P47-40 is a great ride for ground attack. It's personally my favorite plane for blasting a VH or CV.
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The jug is very simple to fly because the ROE to fly it effectively are so strict. It's is a matter of knowing what it can and can't do. It is not a ride for the undisciplined or the impatient. A light jug with is very dangerous low, better than a Hellcat IMHO because of views,toughness and guns. Also, the flaps pop out at 400 whereas most rides need 250 or under.
Think about this: Each 1/4 tank of gas=550lbs and 3400 rds of ammo =~ 1100lbs. With 1/2 gas you can get 3,400 fpm climb and give the K4 a run for it's money in a turny fight (still at a slight disadvantage) I haven't flown a fighter whose performance envelope changes so drastically with weight change. JUGS ROCK!
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If you like Juggs, come to Bishland Talen... As you well know from the times you have been over here, ThndrEGG regularly runs Jugg missions where 20-30 P47D-40s will wreak havok. I appreciate the fact that 'EGG runs 'em high and fast, where the P47 shines. :D
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If any jug pilot here can regularly beat a decent stick in a K4, I'll drive to whatever state he lives in and mow his yard :aok
Sacramento, CA... you're in luck, my front yard is small, and my back yard is a large patio and landscaping (no grass). :lol :rofl :lol :rofl :lol
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<--Member of the 56th that joined the evil K4 flying Muppets someone mentioned earlier..
<---Flies K4's AND jugs...
and no Jugs will not outturn a K4.
Have a nice day. :aok
I hope you learned something yesterday ;) :aok
<---Only Flies jugs, mainly Razorback :aok
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I feel like I'm the only one flying besides my squadron on rook nation. Any other P47 fans/pilots/squadrons on the dark side? :O
Would see if we could put something together but i know J.U.G.S is supposed to be flying today i think. Any P47 pilots squadless atm? Just wondering.... :D
Also if there is a JUGS meeting today i have something special planned. :rock
I am a 47 pilot, have been for close to 5 years now, i love that bird, even tho it is WAY under powered
-BigBOBCH
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i really like the jug, d-40 is my fav, even tho i wish they would let us have the "m"
the worst part about the jug in the game is the fact that we can't "hotrod" it.
that may sound crazy and for the game might not be even possible!
but wouldn't you love too turn that monster up to 80 plus boost and just fly off and leave all those germans eating your dust! :rofl :rofl :rofl
this is something that did happen and is very American(hot roding i mean) p-38s and jugs as well as ponies all gotta little tweak here and there depending on the crew chief's ability and the pilots desire! as well as most of the German planes,
just not sure how to do it. (really think it would be simple use of perk points!)hotrod p-47- n with over boost- 20 perks
those things aside A.H. is not were the jug shines, mostly low level stuff is not what this plane was built for. that being said there is no prouder moment than when i get a kill in a jug of a good German fighter, they don't happen often in this game but they are very satisfying! :aok
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those things aside A.H. is not were the jug shines, mostly low level stuff is not what this plane was built for.
Blasphemy! :aok ;)