Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: RATTFINK on September 03, 2008, 02:43:37 PM
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The following was forwarded to me from a friend:
Lockheed During WWII (unbelievable 1940s pictures) This is pretty neat--special effects during
the 1940's: I have never seen these pictures or knew that we had gone this far to protect us.
During World War II the Army Corps of Engineers needed to hide the Lockheed Burbank Aircraft
Plant to protect it from Japanese air attack. They covered it with camouflage netting to make it look
like a rural subdivision from the air.
BEFORE
(http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u7/rattfink31/LockheedWW1.jpg)
AFTER
(http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u7/rattfink31/LockheedWW2.jpg)
(http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u7/rattfink31/LockheedWW3.jpg)
(http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u7/rattfink31/LockheedWW4.jpg)
(http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u7/rattfink31/LockheedWW5.jpg)
(http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u7/rattfink31/LockheedWW6.jpg)
(http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u7/rattfink31/LockheedWW8.jpg)
(http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u7/rattfink31/LockheedWW9.jpg)
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Were we really that scared of the Germans being able to reach us from Europe?
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Were we really that scared of the Germans being able to reach us from Europe?
Please tell me you were joking.
Nice Pics.
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cool pics :aok
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Were we really that scared of the Germans being able to reach us from Europe?
We were hiding the Lockheed plant from the Japs.
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Were we really that scared of the Germans being able to reach us from Europe?
Hurray for literacy!
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Please tell me you were joking.
Nice Pics.
Yes i was... you people are no fun.. :noid
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Were we really that scared of the Germans being able to reach us from Europe?
Of course, they bombed Pearl Harbor didn't they?
ack-ack
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Of course, they bombed Pearl Harbor didn't they?
ack-ack
I remember when Stephen Waldren posted about how the Germans attacked Pearl Harbor with Helicopters :lol
Classic!
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I remember when Stephen Waldren posted about how the Germans attacked Pearl Harbor with Helicopters :lol
Classic!
Mine was a reference from a movie far beyond your time.
ack-ack
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Mine was a reference from a movie far beyond your time.
ack-ack
HOOOOORRRRRRRYYYYWWOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOD!!
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HOOOOORRRRRRRYYYYWWOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOD!!
The Jap version?
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Mine was a reference from a movie far beyond your time.
ack-ack
Germans??? ;)
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wait where was the plant located,if it was on hawaii or possibly the panama canal i would see the point of hiding it.but if it were anywhere else there is not much of a point.
btw i saw a bomber in one of the photos.what was the bomber?
did they make any other kinds of planes?
i wouldn't think that america would go to this extent to protect the factory,when because on the coast of the atlantic US they didn't make people shut down thier lights.
which might have saved more shipping because the u-boats could go along new york and even florida and see where our liberty ships and alll that was coming from.
the coastline was lit up along the us. I have some good photos from a book. :D
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wait where was the plant located
Burbank
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During the early part of the war no one knew what 'they' had where 'they' would come from and 'who' might help them. There were vast parts of our country and many neighboring countries that were open and available for clandestine use. In that kind of situation it was thought better to be safe then sorry.
Then we had a generation of glue sniffers that grew up to be....
NM
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HOOOOORRRRRRRYYYYWWOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOD!!
Wrong movie. Where is Sen. Blutarsky when you need him?
ack-ack
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wait where was the plant located,if it was on hawaii or possibly the panama canal i would see the point of hiding it.but if it were anywhere else there is not much of a point.
btw i saw a bomber in one of the photos.what was the bomber?
did they make any other kinds of planes?
i wouldn't think that america would go to this extent to protect the factory,when because on the coast of the atlantic US they didn't make people shut down thier lights.
which might have saved more shipping because the u-boats could go along new york and even florida and see where our liberty ships and alll that was coming from.
the coastline was lit up along the us. I have some good photos from a book. :D
Does anyone read the full story of a post anymore?
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Germans??? ;)
Forget it, he's rolling.
ack-ack
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtP3whUbgZE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtP3whUbgZE)
:)
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btw i saw a bomber in one of the photos.what was the bomber?
This pic?
(http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u7/rattfink31/LockheedWW9.jpg)
That ain't a bomber. Try a DC-4/C-54.
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Do you see the P38?
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Yes i was... you people are no fun.. :noid
titanic, this is the second time in two days you have posted a comment that was beyond humorous stupidity. Its getting hard to believe you are being sarcastic every time...
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Its a lockheed constellation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Constellation
Like any of the people that post here know what they're talking about... BIASED fewls, the most of em.
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Its a lockheed constellation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Constellation
Right. Somehow missed the outer fins. :o
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And the DC-4/C-54 was built by Douglas not Lockheed.
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And the DC-4/C-54 was built by Douglas not Lockheed.
Holy smoke, didn't know that. :eek: Thanks!!!
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Just an FYI for those that don't know. The Japanese actually held territory in the Aleutian islands, that's just west of Alaska for those that are geographically challenged. There was a real fear of the Japanese attacking the west coast of the U.S. so the camouflaging of the Lockheed plant, and others on the west coast makes perfect since.
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Holy smoke, didn't know that. :eek: Thanks!!!
That is what the "D" stands for.
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Sounds more like a propaganda act. Surely made the people feel like they were under immediate threat.
-C+
http://www.godickson.com/locpla1.htm
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Sounds more like a propaganda act. Surely made the people feel like they were under immediate threat.
-C+
http://www.godickson.com/locpla1.htm
It had nothing to do with propoganda and very much to do with legitimate fears of a Japanese attack on the West Coast. The fear was very real, there were numerous sightings (both confirmed and unconfirmed) of Japanese submarines and on June 21, 1942, the Japanese submarine I-25 shelled a small coastal defense installation on the Oregon coast. Then there was the "Battle for Los Angeles" fiasco.
ack-ack
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It had nothing to do with propoganda and very much to do with legitimate fears of a Japanese attack on the West Coast. The fear was very real, there were numerous sightings (both confirmed and unconfirmed) of Japanese submarines and on June 21, 1942, the Japanese submarine I-25 shelled a small coastal defense installation on the Oregon coast. Then there was the "Battle for Los Angeles" fiasco.
ack-ack
(http://home.arcor.de/gallerie_m_s/gallerie_r/bilder/rage_against_the_machine_the_battle_of_los_angeles_front.jpg)
?
;)
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That is what the "D" stands for.
Holy Shiete, never knew that!!! Thanks.
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Lockheed was building B-17's at the Burbank plant, if memory serves correct. They even built a prototype with four Allison engines. It was fast, and had range. An electrical fire destroyed it, again, if memory serves correct.
The really odd thing is that Consolidated Vultee in Nashville was the second source for the P-38. See the problem? An aircraft company geared towards large aircraft was told to produce P-38's, the most difficult plane to build in World War II, while the company that designed the P-38 was told to build B-17's. Consolidated never got the hang of building P-38's, they took years to build 113. Imagine what would have happened had common sense prevailed, and Consolidated had been tasked with building the B-17's Lockheed was told to build, and Lockheed had been allowed to devote the B-17 lines to production of P-38's.
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(http://home.arcor.de/gallerie_m_s/gallerie_r/bilder/rage_against_the_machine_the_battle_of_los_angeles_front.jpg)
?;)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Los_Angeles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Los_Angeles)
:uhoh
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Within days of pearl harbor:
Somewhere in USA, 6th graders in a school classroom, teacher pulls down a world map, points, and says 'this is japan'...
The 6thgrader's response was 'that little place attacked us?'
LOL
Nobody was skeerd.
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We could not fight WWII today. In WWII the 'greatest generation' went without sugar rubber nylon chocolate coffee cigarettes copper and many many other things and not just for a few months it went on for years.
Today the price of gas goes up a dollar and the whining never ends.
The next war will probably be with North Korea or China or maybe both. Their citizens will be todays 'greatest generation' because the things they will have to do without they never had. Their government doesnt tie the hands of their military and they probably would have no qualms about using biological weapons.
We water board a few people and Congress starts yelling 'impeach.'
All of our stuff is made in China. I wonder if they will honor their trade agreement after the war starts?
Pretty cool how hollywood set makers helped in that war by coming up with ways to hide our industries. Now hollywood roots for the enemy.
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We could not fight WWII today. In WWII the 'greatest generation' went without sugar rubber nylon chocolate coffee cigarettes copper and many many other things and not just for a few months it went on for years.
Today the price of gas goes up a dollar and the whining never ends.
The next war will probably be with North Korea or China or maybe both. Their citizens will be todays 'greatest generation' because the things they will have to do without they never had. Their government doesnt tie the hands of their military and they probably would have no qualms about using biological weapons.
We water board a few people and Congress starts yelling 'impeach.'
All of our stuff is made in China. I wonder if they will honor their trade agreement after the war starts?
Pretty cool how hollywood set makers helped in that war by coming up with ways to hide our industries. Now hollywood roots for the enemy.
I agree. Hopefully though if it should come to that, America's citizens will get their **** together in time to save ourselves and pull another victory out of our arses.
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summed up: USA wasn't skeerd, they were.
They failed:
I) Had Japan actually taken Pearl Harbor (Hawaii), maybe USA peeps would have been nervous, but even with their 'sneak attack,' they couldn't take it. USA wasn't skeerd.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_Pearl_Harbor
2) USA carriers weren't in Pearl Harbor, even Yamamoto said "I FEAR all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve." A few hours after they started it, Japan was skeerd.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isoroku_Yamamoto%27s_sleeping_giant_quote
They got pwnt:
3) Only 12 days after Pearl Harbor: Flying Tigers, USA pilots in USA planes, P40s, are kicking Japan arse on thier side of the world. USA airpower was 'over there' before pearl harbor - Japan's attack wasn't so secret.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_tigers
4) Only 4 months after Pearl Harbor: April 42, "Doolittles Raiders" - USA did bomb mainland Japan, from a USA carrier group on a one way flight over Japan to China. Japan's skeerd reality was falling on their heads.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doolittle_Raid
(May of 42, USA stops Japan from invading Austrailia, 'Battle of Coral Sea.")
5) Only 6 months after Pearl Harbor: June 42, "Battle of Midway," - Japan's 'failure of an offensive force' is sank when they tried to take a teeny tiny island, Midway.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Midway
6) Only 8 months after Pearl Harbor, August 42, Guadalcanal Campaign - USA's takes a Japan occupied island, the path of 'Island hopping' to Japan's mainland is in motion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guadalcanal_Campaign
pwnt, sooo sowwy
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Of course, they bombed Pearl Harbor didn't they?
ack-ack
:rofl
Nice one :P
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summed up: USA wasn't skeerd, they were.
They failed:
I) Had Japan actually taken Pearl Harbor (Hawaii), maybe USA peeps would have been nervous, but even with their 'sneak attack,' they couldn't take it. USA wasn't skeerd.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_Pearl_Harbor
2) USA carriers weren't in Pearl Harbor, even Yamamoto said "I FEAR all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve." A few hours after they started it, Japan was skeerd.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isoroku_Yamamoto%27s_sleeping_giant_quote
They got pwnt:
3) Only 12 days after Pearl Harbor: Flying Tigers, USA pilots in USA planes, P40s, are kicking Japan arse on thier side of the world. USA airpower was 'over there' before pearl harbor - Japan's attack wasn't so secret.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_tigers
4) Only 4 months after Pearl Harbor: April 42, "Doolittles Raiders" - USA did bomb mainland Japan, from a USA carrier group on a one way flight over Japan to China. Japan's skeerd reality was falling on their heads.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doolittle_Raid
(May of 42, USA stops Japan from invading Austrailia, 'Battle of Coral Sea.")
5) Only 6 months after Pearl Harbor: June 42, "Battle of Midway," - Japan's 'failure of an offensive force' is sank when they tried to take a teeny tiny island, Midway.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Midway
6) Only 8 months after Pearl Harbor, August 42, Guadalcanal Campaign - USA's takes a Japan occupied island, the path of 'Island hopping' to Japan's mainland is in motion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guadalcanal_Campaign
pwnt, sooo sowwy
Maybe they didn't have the advantage of hindsight.
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I see a png otw.
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summed up: USA wasn't skeerd, they were.
They failed:
I) Had Japan actually taken Pearl Harbor (Hawaii), maybe USA peeps would have been nervous, but even with their 'sneak attack,' they couldn't take it. USA wasn't skeerd.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_Pearl_Harbor
2) USA carriers weren't in Pearl Harbor, even Yamamoto said "I FEAR all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve." A few hours after they started it, Japan was skeerd.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isoroku_Yamamoto%27s_sleeping_giant_quote
They got pwnt:
3) Only 12 days after Pearl Harbor: Flying Tigers, USA pilots in USA planes, P40s, are kicking Japan arse on thier side of the world. USA airpower was 'over there' before pearl harbor - Japan's attack wasn't so secret.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_tigers
4) Only 4 months after Pearl Harbor: April 42, "Doolittles Raiders" - USA did bomb mainland Japan, from a USA carrier group on a one way flight over Japan to China. Japan's skeerd reality was falling on their heads.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doolittle_Raid
(May of 42, USA stops Japan from invading Austrailia, 'Battle of Coral Sea.")
5) Only 6 months after Pearl Harbor: June 42, "Battle of Midway," - Japan's 'failure of an offensive force' is sank when they tried to take a teeny tiny island, Midway.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Midway
6) Only 8 months after Pearl Harbor, August 42, Guadalcanal Campaign - USA's takes a Japan occupied island, the path of 'Island hopping' to Japan's mainland is in motion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guadalcanal_Campaign
pwnt, sooo sowwy
Not a bad timeline, but the wikipidea makes me question the research that went into it.
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Does anyone read the full story of a post anymore?
what post?
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In the hindesight looking glass of history its difficult to imagine any Japanese leaders actually believed victory was possible against the Pacific allies in '41. I know their objecive was only to buy time in order to consolidate their conquests but even that reasoning is deeply flawed because whats the point of "buying time" if youv started a war you couldnt possibly win in the long run?
Japan had no decent armor, no radar, no parachute regiments, no long range bombers. They garrisoned the perimeter of a huge , far flung Empire with troops they had limited ability to supply. They had no convoy plans or assets available to assign to convoy duty. They had a very limited shipbuilding/Industrial capacity. They had decent submarines with good torpedoes but never really developed effective doctrine to make the best use of them.
I could list a thousand reasons why they should have realized in '41 that is was suicide to attack America and her allies in the Pacific.
So in hindsight it seems silly Lockheed would go to such lengths to hide its industry against the few crummy float planes the Jap submarine force could drum up. But I guess in 1941 the fear was real.
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That's an easy question to answer. The leaders of the Japanese military believed the U.S. was soft, and unwilling to commit to victory in a nasty fight. Yamamoto desperately tried to convince them otherwise saying "any U.S. surrender would require an invasion of the U.S., and the surrender would have to be signed in the White House", and "the Americans are a just and righteous people, they will not be defeated". He also told them "I can guarantee you that I can run wild for about 6 months in the Pacific, and after that I can promise nothing." It was almost prophetic, Pearl Harbor to Midway was almost exactly 6 months. Granted, Midway was a victory achieved as much through intelligence as anything else, but 6 months was all they got.
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That's an easy question to answer. The leaders of the Japanese military believed the U.S. was soft, and unwilling to commit to victory in a nasty fight. Yamamoto desperately tried to convince them otherwise saying "any U.S. surrender would require an invasion of the U.S., and the surrender would have to be signed in the White House", and "the Americans are a just and righteous people, they will not be defeated". He also told them "I can guarantee you that I can run wild for about 6 months in the Pacific, and after that I can promise nothing." It was almost prophetic, Pearl Harbor to Midway was almost exactly 6 months. Granted, Midway was a victory achieved as much through intelligence as anything else, but 6 months was all they got.
Part of what made Yamamoto dangerous was the fact he understood Americans very well. There were others in positions of power, men who had traveled to, lived in, and most of all studied America and her history. But your right, their opinions were drowned out by the racial superiority crowd. At most Japan had a sake driven shadow of its samurai past in WW-2. The real Samurai would never underestimate their enemy and or act precipitously or stupidly.
Had they studied our history they would have realized we have always been a martial people who would never shrink from a fight. But I guess the real kicker was they didn't want to give up their dreams of Empire, stop their march into Asia, and be seen as backing down to America. I guess in their eyes we were hypocrites in that we had established Asian colonies as well. And at least in the case of the Philippines used brutal methods to pacify insurgents opposed to our occupation.
Forgive me for a semi-hijack but its all very interesting stuff.
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In the hindesight looking glass of history its difficult to imagine any Japanese leaders actually believed victory was possible against the Pacific allies in '41. I know their objecive was only to buy time in order to consolidate their conquests but even that reasoning is deeply flawed because whats the point of "buying time" if youv started a war you couldnt possibly win in the long run?
Japan had no decent armor, no radar, no parachute regiments, no long range bombers. They garrisoned the perimeter of a huge , far flung Empire with troops they had limited ability to supply. They had no convoy plans or assets available to assign to convoy duty. They had a very limited shipbuilding/Industrial capacity. They had decent submarines with good torpedoes but never really developed effective doctrine to make the best use of them.
I could list a thousand reasons why they should have realized in '41 that is was suicide to attack America and her allies in the Pacific.
So in hindsight it seems silly Lockheed would go to such lengths to hide its industry against the few crummy float planes the Jap submarine force could drum up. But I guess in 1941 the fear was real.
I agree, but when the bombs and shells are actually falling on you, a 100lb bomb from a float plane looks like a 4,000lb laser-guided-cookie and that little 3-inch deck gun feels like a barrage of 18-inch death.
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Spoken like someone who's obviously been there.
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Spoken like someone who's obviously been there.
Golfer, do you disagree? Can that inference not be made by looking at the comments and actions of those who WERE there?
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Golfer, do you disagree? Can that inference not be made by looking at the comments and actions of those who WERE there?
I think what he meant by inference was that for you to take that perspective could imply you had once been under fire.
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I think what he meant by inference was that for you to take that perspective could imply you had once been under fire.
If that is the case, my point still stands. Is it tough to see that? We have all heard talk from people who were under fire, and we all know our history, and one thing that is often emphasised (As far back as Sun Tzu) is the effect of fear in combat. It happens today. You get a bag of white powder in the mail annonimously. You immidiately panic and think anthrax, regardless of the fact that it looks remarkably like sugar...
No, I have not been in combat. But it doesn't take being there to realise the effect fear can have on people.
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I agree, but when the bombs and shells are actually falling on you, a 100lb bomb from a float plane looks like a 4,000lb laser-guided-cookie and that little 3-inch deck gun feels like a barrage of 18-inch death.
Im not sure this statement is relevant, whether youv been there or not. We had to send huge formations of heavy bombers to reduce aircraft factories to a percentage worth the effort. To think that Japanese submarine launched aircraft would have any impact on Lockheed production is laughable.
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I think the effort was made on the possibility of Japan parking a fleet off of San Francisco and causing mayhem all along the coast. I dont believe anyone thought they would but that they could needed to be considered. One Admiral had already lost his command for not considering the possibilities.
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Im not sure this statement is relevant, whether youv been there or not. We had to send huge formations of heavy bombers to reduce aircraft factories to a percentage worth the effort. To think that Japanese submarine launched aircraft would have any impact on Lockheed production is laughable.
The statement was to give my idea as to why the plant was put under such camoflage. Someone said "In hindsight" etc. I was simply pointing out that while hindsight is 20/20, at the time we didn't have all of the information we have today. So, (I guess I should have added IMHO or something to clarify this) "In MY oppinion, because all america knew was that we were being attacked, we felt it was necessary to hide our major production lines, lest they be destroyed in the next attack".
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Im not sure this statement is relevant, whether youv been there or not. We had to send huge formations of heavy bombers to reduce aircraft factories to a percentage worth the effort. To think that Japanese submarine launched aircraft would have any impact on Lockheed production is laughable.
If they could manage to get ONE bomb hit on that plant, the impact on production would have been incredible. And Lockheed was strictly forbidden to shut down the P-38 lines for ANY reason.
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That proves it that a bomb would not have an effect on the P-38 production line! Just like my airplane is not certified for ditching therefore both engines will not flame out over water... :O
:uhoh
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http://www.angelfire.com/bc/sanfranartillery/
http://www.angelfire.com/bc/sanfranartillery/Mendel1.html
We called them "pop up cannons".
I think the united states had the right stuff and did everything they needed to do to keep our country safe.
Cants see it happening this day and age tho. (least not without another sucker punch)
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"If they could manage to get ONE bomb hit on that plant, the impact on production would have been incredible."
Interesting. I wonder how many bomb hits it took from the 8th airforce at the factories in Germany to get enough reason for Germans to move them underground (where possible)...
Thus I wonder on what such claim is based on.
-C+
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Well it was better to hide it and not need to than to not hide it and need to. We were at war with an enemy that had already attacked us once.
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If they could manage to get ONE bomb hit on that plant, the impact on production would have been incredible. And Lockheed was strictly forbidden to shut down the P-38 lines for ANY reason.
You cant be serious.
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http://www.angelfire.com/bc/sanfranartillery/
http://www.angelfire.com/bc/sanfranartillery/Mendel1.html
We called them "pop up cannons".
I think the united states had the right stuff and did everything they needed to do to keep our country safe.
Cants see it happening this day and age tho. (least not without another sucker punch)
We still have two of the emplacements (sans guns) dug into Diamond Head you can walk through, and two emplacements with guns by Fort DeRusy (SP?) in Waikiki.
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You cant be serious.
Really? I'm deadly serious.
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Really? I'm deadly serious.
You think one bomb would have an incredable effect on airplane production? We sent thousands of heavy bombers against German aircraft industries and their production actually went up. And you think one bomb would affect P-38 production at Lockheed?
Please? Explain your opinion.
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There were only two lines producing P-38's, they were right next to each other. One bomb in the right place would have wrecked all sorts of stuff. You're talking about the most complex and difficult to manufacture prop fighter of the war. EVERY assembly had to be done on special jigs and fixtures. EVERY operation where two assemblies were joined had to be done on special jigs and fixtures. There were VERY FEW spares for those jigs and fixtures. That's why the P-38 was never adequately second sourced, there was barely enough tooling, jigs, and fixtures at Lockheed. And that is why the War Production Board denied Lockheed shut down time of any significant length.
The Germans second sourced all sorts of stuff. As strategic bombing reach further into Germany and did so more often, the Germans actually moved production of parts and assemblies into smaller shops in areas less likely to be bombed.
See the difference? ONE source, with only two production lines, right next to each other, on a more complex aircraft, all in one location, compared to multiple sources in various locations, building the parts for a far less complex aircraft.
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Agreed 100% In the case of the P38 production yes one bomb 'could' put production months behind schedule. The P38 was (bar none) the hardest aircraft of the war to construct and early on the bombing destruction of a single jig would have made it impossible to proceed until that jig was replaced.
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I understand what your saying. For that matter "one bomb" could have caused all kinds of havoc if it landed on FDRs bathroom while he was taking a crap.
But wartime America turned itself into an industrial giant like the world had never seen. Certainly we would have had recovered from the one bomb dropped on Lockheed.
Anyway thanks for the slice of history I was strangly remiss of. I knew it was only produced at one plant but wasnt aware its parts werent outsourced like that. Without question it was a high value target and worth the cost of the camo netting. Thanks for the replys.
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But wartime America turned itself into an industrial giant like the world had never seen. Certainly we would have had recovered from the one bomb dropped on Lockheed.
Thats questionable. Wartime America is abso-freaking-lutely fantastic at producing a LOT of some REALLY fast. But that something is usually simple. However the complexity of repairing and replacing these jigs would take more time than could be spared.
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I understand what your saying. For that matter "one bomb" could have caused all kinds of havoc if it landed on FDRs bathroom while he was taking a crap.
But wartime America turned itself into an industrial giant like the world had never seen. Certainly we would have had recovered from the one bomb dropped on Lockheed.
Anyway thanks for the slice of history I was strangly remiss of. I knew it was only produced at one plant but wasnt aware its parts werent outsourced like that. Without question it was a high value target and worth the cost of the camo netting. Thanks for the replys.
The P-38 was eventually second sourced, to Consolidated Vultee in Nashville Tennessee, near my home. I had relatives who worked there. This was a plant that belonged to a major aircraft company, in the middle of a huge aircraft manufacturing complex (military aircraft parts are still built here, a lot of them). It took them two years or more to make,
wait for it,
a grand total of 113 P-38 Lightning fighters. :eek:
So, yes, a single bomb hit on the P-38 production line could have been HUGE. The War Production Board would not let Lockheed stop production for two weeks in order to change over to the P-38K (a DRAMATIC improvement over the P-38J and P-38L) in 1943. Imagine a shut down long enough to rebuild a section of production line, train new employees if any were injured or killed, and replace even 10% of the jigs and fixtures.
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USA was producing bombers and fiters every few secs.
A jig is only a piece of plywood with a shape cut into it, duh? All ya had to do was get another piece of plywood.
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USA was producing bombers and fiters every few secs.
A jig is only a piece of plywood with a shape cut into it, duh? All ya had to do was get another piece of plywood.
Um... no. Not so simple. Because its not only one section that needs to be remade. A 100lb bomb could easily scatter a huge chunk of un-armored, very delicate machinery ALL of which would need to be replaced.
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Gosh, this is a tough one. To give credence the engine builder, and P-38 enthusiest/historian...Or the formerly banned, and soon to be banned again clueless troll.
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A hand saw and a piece of plywood is all thats required to make a new jig.
This is sooo funny. I know for fact neither of you '1 bomb' fewls are in a position of management. I can imagine you guys at a stockholder meeting... "uh, a tree in the parking lot was hit by lightning so we missed the production goals by 99 pecent. instead of 100 p38s we built 1.
Let me quote Donald Trump...
"YOU'RE FIRED!!!"
LOLOL
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Since bombing the crap out of Germany still left Germany with quite some production numbers, I tend to think that the task would have been difficult with the USA...
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Gosh, this is a tough one. To give credence the engine builder, and P-38 enthusiest/historian...Or the formerly banned, and soon to be banned again clueless troll.
I can make no sense of this what so ever? Was something edited that I missed?
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USA was producing bombers and fiters every few secs.
A jig is only a piece of plywood with a shape cut into it, duh? All ya had to do was get another piece of plywood.
No, a jig for an assembly of a P-38 was not a piece of plywood with a shape cut in it. Unless you've figured out how to hold a few thousandths of an inch tolerance with a piece of plywood.
I made a living for a while making parts and assemblies for Peterbilt trucks. The jig that was used to make the floor pan assembly for the Peterbilt 387 truck had to hold about 1MM tolerance. That jig, to make a flat floor pan, no bigger than the floorboard of a semi truck, was sure as Hell not a piece of plywood. In fact, the jig took nearly a MONTH to build, in 2001. It took a week just to set it up and certify it to hold a 1MM tolerance.
When you have some sort of grasp on what it takes to manufacture a complex aircraft, and hold tolerances on assemblies that require a fit of 0.030", you come back and tell us all about how you can do it.
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A hand saw and a piece of plywood is all thats required to make a new jig.
This is sooo funny. I know for fact neither of you '1 bomb' fewls are in a position of management. I can imagine you guys at a stockholder meeting... "uh, a tree in the parking lot was hit by lightning so we missed the production goals by 99 pecent. instead of 100 p38s we built 1.
Let me quote Donald Trump...
"YOU'RE FIRED!!!"
LOLOL
I'll tell you what, chump, I don't just manage, I own my own company. You take a hand saw and make a jig out of plywood and hold a tail boom assembly for a fighter plane to a tolerance of 0.030". I want to watch. Hell, you can't even spell, I can just imagine how well you read a blueprint.
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Since bombing the crap out of Germany still left Germany with quite some production numbers, I tend to think that the task would have been difficult with the USA...
Make a detailed comparison of P-38 production, from start to finish, to the production of German fighters. It is like daylight and dark.
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Nevermind its all coming to me now.
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I'll tell you what, chump, I don't just manage, I own my own company. You take a hand saw and make a jig out of plywood and hold a tail boom assembly for a fighter plane to a tolerance of 0.030". I want to watch. Hell, you can't even spell, I can just imagine how well you read a blueprint.
.0030 of a what? Units pls!
Thats alot of significant digits but, if it was inches and some fewl thought it was centimeters... then your spaceshuttle just blew up!
I'm sure that the margin for error was plenty such that the p38 would still be a p38 plus or minus a few tenthousandsths? of an inch? heh
BTW
HE CALLED ME A CHUMP... ban him now!!!
He not banned? ok, me call him a name now too...
Virgil how shamed you are, read a book on 'falacies', don't attack the person, attack the argument.
You attacked my spelling, hurt my feewings, :( ... Ya Grammar Queen! :rofl
The camaflaging (spelling) was there to improve the company employees moral, make them 'feel' safer. As for the netting over the parkinglots... it was for shade! I'll give ya a lil and say it was also to deter Japan from bombing.
USA wasn't skeerd!
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Schlowy driveled:[/I].0030 of a what? Units pls!
Thats alot of significant digits but, if it was inches and some fewl thought it was centimeters... then your spaceshuttle just blew up!
I'm sure that the margin for error was plenty such that the p38 would still be a p38 plus or minus a few tenthousandsths? of an inch? heh
BTW
HE CALLED ME A CHUMP... ban him now!!!
He not banned? ok, me call him a name now too...
Virgil how shamed you are, read a book on 'falacies', don't attack the person, attack the argument.
You attacked my spelling, hurt my feewings, Sad ... Ya Grammar Queen! ROFL!
The camaflaging (spelling) was there to improve the company employees moral, make them 'feel' safer. As for the netting over the parkinglot
I gave you the tolerance in exact and correct form (by the way moron, I posted 0.030", that is thirty thousandths of an inch). The fact that you cannot read it shows I was indeed correct, you cannot even read a blueprint, and as such are not even close to qualified to comment on the subject at hand.
I am not the least bit ashamed. Given what you posted to begin with, and I quoted it, I gave you your due, and that is very little.
You should read a book on reading and following blueprints, and follow it with a few books on reading, comprehension, spelling, and grammar. Maybe in 20 years or so you might be qualified to offer something on the subject at hand.
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Soo sorry about mistaking 0.030 for .0030, but you didn't put units, and I was laughing to much while posting that, still am. :lol
Imma leave you alone now! USA wasn't skeerd! P38s production was just fine!
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Soo sorry about mistaking 0.030 for .0030, but you didn't put units, and I was laughing to much while posting that, still am. :lol
Imma leave you alone now! USA wasn't skeerd! P38s production was just fine!
Still not able to read? The units are there, plain as day. That you do not see them speaks volumes as to both your ignorance and your arrogance. Once again, I posted 0.030", which is thirty thousandths of an inch. See, the symbol " is the correct symbol for inches as given on blueprints. Since you apparently can neither read nor spell, is a picture required? If so, get someone to post one for you.
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Hmm let me get my GLASSES so I can read this thread. :noid
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Gosh, this is a tough one. To give credence the engine builder, and P-38 enthusiest/historian...Or the formerly banned, and soon to be banned again clueless troll.
Oh, this is so tough, I'm still deliberating :rofl
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Finally, i see it, a ", putting a " is fine for on schematics, but not on a typing document or forum.
I didn't see it before, i was only skimming yer stuff because of how rediculous your '1 jap bomb could defeat the p38' theory is.
Advice for you, don't turd into wind.
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Finally, i see it, a ", putting a " is fine for on schematics, but not on a typing document or forum.
I didn't see it before, i was only skimming yer stuff because of how rediculous your '1 jap bomb could defeat the p38' theory is.
Advice for you, don't turd into wind.
Advice for you: Avoid attempting to argue subjects you have no knowledge of. But by all means, continue to speak of "turds", I'm sure you are an expert on the contents of your skull, so you should be able to lecture on the subject of "turds", with you being an expert and all.
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Murdr, this is from the other thread, you can switch Karnak's name for yours.
Posted by Schlowy:
--------------------------------------------------------------
Karnak has arrived, 10,000+ -posts... with a mossie in his sig...
A brilliant correlation I just realized... I was sitting here having my coffee and toast...
*A planes performance is directly proportional to the total number of posts of a plane sig'ed player*
Data set A: player with a 190 in sig gets a total of 10 posts before he is banned = 190 sux in game
Data set B: player with a mossie in sig gets a total 10,000+ posts and not banned = mossie rules in game
(drum roll)
Me bets this function is linear... brilliance, Imma win the nobel prize!
---------------------------------------------------------------
Check the ROC mr Murdr. You are not a mod, you are 'backseat' modding when you say i'm going to get banned. Smart guy like you could find the ROC rule number yes?
Murdr, wth anyways?
He says 1 jap bomb could have killed p38 production. Read the thread? He silly, I done for now! :)
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There were close to 10,000 Lockheed P-38 Lighting aircraft built between 1941 and 1945. Between 1941 and 1945, there were some 2 million minutes. So at best, there was a P-38 built every 3 hours, not one every few minutes. Even then, that doesn't mean it took 3 hours to build a P-38, that's just how far they were spaced apart on the production line. Your entire argument is pure fallacy, easily dissected and shown to be completely without merit. You SHOULD be done here, you contributed a grand total of nothing to begin with, save a pitiful distraction from the actual subject at hand.
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The camaflaging (spelling) was there to improve the company employees moral, make them 'feel' safer. As for the netting over the parkinglots... it was for shade! I'll give ya a lil and say it was also to deter Japan from bombing.
USA wasn't skeerd!
Don't let your self sense of national pride blind you to the facts. There was a real fear of attack on the West Coast by the Japanese. To deny there wasn't a fear is just denying the historical facts. If you're ever in the San Diego area, take a cruise to Pt. Loma and Cabrillo Point. Look at all the shore battery emplacements that are pointing towards the Pacific, I'm sure you think those were placed and manned solely for morale and not to actually defend our coast from enemy attack. I'm sure you also believe that the East Coast also faced no danger from enemy attack, despite all the U-boat sightings (confirmed) off our coast and even having shipping attack and sunk within sight of the shore.
You should take this time to throw in the towel and concede defeat, otherwise you'll just continue to look the fool.
ack-ack
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If you're ever in the San Diego area, take a cruise to Pt. Loma and Cabrillo Point. Look at all the shore battery emplacements that are pointing towards the Pacific, I'm sure you think those were placed and manned solely for morale and not to actually defend our coast from enemy attack.
Same thing in San Francisco on the north side of the Golden Gate bridge.
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Still not able to read? The units are there, plain as day. That you do not see them speaks volumes as to both your ignorance and your arrogance. Once again, I posted 0.030", which is thirty thousandths of an inch. See, the symbol " is the correct symbol for inches as given on blueprints. Since you apparently can neither read nor spell, is a picture required? If so, get someone to post one for you.
Honestly, why waste your time with this tool? You can tell what his intelligence level by his signature.
ack-ack
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Honestly, why waste your time with this tool? You can tell what his intelligence level by his signature.
ack-ack
:aok
Trolls like living under bridges because of the shade.
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So at best, there was a P-38 built every 3 hours, not one every few minutes.
Dude, USA was producing fiters in less than 1min. <--- i said fiter, not p38 only.
Ack Ack
There was a real fear of attack on the West Coast by the Japanese. To deny there wasn't a fear is just denying the historical facts.
I'm not silly, you '1 bomb at each usa factory wins the war' crowd are.
Summed up, JAPAN DID NOT TAKE Pearl Harbor, they ONLY bombed it.
TRUE FEAR WOULD BE IF THEY ACTUALLY TOOK IT.
Four months later we bombed Doolittles Raiders DID BOMB Japan.
Day after pearl harbor I bet the beaches were still full with peolpe SWIMMING AT THE BEACHES next to those cannons and up and down the whole west Coast, well maybe not, it was DECEMBER LoL. The beaches were NOT LAND MINED LOL.
About my sig, if the BoB is proof the spitty was better, then the Battle of Dieppe is proof the 109 was better.
To save you the time of reading the whole thread...
TWO POSTS I PUT FROM EARLIER IN THE THREAD.
------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------
Within days of pearl harbor:
Somewhere in USA, 6th graders in a school classroom, teacher pulls down a world map, points, and says 'this is japan'...
The 6thgraders' response was "that little place attacked us?"
LOL
Nobody was skeerd.
summed up: USA wasn't skeerd, they were.
They failed:
1) Had Japan actually taken Pearl Harbor (Hawaii), maybe USA peeps would have been nervous, but even with their 'sneak attack,' they couldn't take it. USA wasn't skeerd.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_Pearl_Harbor
2) USA carriers weren't in Pearl Harbor, even Yamamoto said "I FEAR all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve." A few hours after they started it, Japan was skeerd.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isoroku_Yamamoto%27s_sleeping_giant_quote
They got pwnt:
3) Only 12 days after Pearl Harbor: Flying Tigers, USA pilots in USA planes, P40s, are kicking Japan arse on thier side of the world. USA airpower was 'over there' before pearl harbor - Japan's attack wasn't so secret.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_tigers
4) Only 4 months after Pearl Harbor: April 42, "Doolittles Raiders" - USA did bomb mainland Japan, from a USA carrier group on a one way flight over Japan to China. Japan's skeerd reality was falling on their heads.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doolittle_Raid
(May of 42, USA stops Japan from invading Austrailia, 'Battle of Coral Sea.")
5) Only 6 months after Pearl Harbor: June 42, "Battle of Midway," - Japan's 'failure of an offensive force' is sank when they tried to take a teeny tiny island, Midway.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Midway
6) Only 8 months after Pearl Harbor, August 42, Guadalcanal Campaign - USA's takes a Japan occupied island, the path of 'Island hopping' to Japan's mainland is in motion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guadalcanal_Campaign
pwnt, sooo sowwy
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Check the ROC mr Murdr. You are not a mod, you are 'backseat' modding when you say i'm going to get banned.
Kind of telling isn't it? I didn't post any names, you must have a guilty conscience.
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Dude, USA was producing fiters in less than 1min. <--- i said fiter, not p38 only.
Ack Ack
I'm not silly, you '1 bomb at each usa factory wins the war' crowd are.
Summed up, JAPAN DID NOT TAKE Pearl Harbor, they ONLY bombed it.
TRUE FEAR WOULD BE IF THEY ACTUALLY TOOK IT.
Four months later we bombed Doolittles Raiders DID BOMB Japan.
Day after pearl harbor I bet the beaches were still full with peolpe SWIMMING AT THE BEACHES next to those cannons and up and down the whole west Coast, well maybe not, it was DECEMBER LoL. The beaches were NOT LAND MINED LOL.
About my sig, if the BoB is proof the spitty was better, then the Battle of Dieppe is proof the 109 was better.
To save you the time of reading the whole thread...
TWO POSTS I PUT FROM EARLIER IN THE THREAD.
------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------
Within days of pearl harbor:
Somewhere in USA, 6th graders in a school classroom, teacher pulls down a world map, points, and says 'this is japan'...
The 6thgraders' response was "that little place attacked us?"
LOL
Nobody was skeerd.
summed up: USA wasn't skeerd, they were.
They failed:
1) Had Japan actually taken Pearl Harbor (Hawaii), maybe USA peeps would have been nervous, but even with their 'sneak attack,' they couldn't take it. USA wasn't skeerd.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_Pearl_Harbor
2) USA carriers weren't in Pearl Harbor, even Yamamoto said "I FEAR all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve." A few hours after they started it, Japan was skeerd.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isoroku_Yamamoto%27s_sleeping_giant_quote
They got pwnt:
3) Only 12 days after Pearl Harbor: Flying Tigers, USA pilots in USA planes, P40s, are kicking Japan arse on thier side of the world. USA airpower was 'over there' before pearl harbor - Japan's attack wasn't so secret.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_tigers
4) Only 4 months after Pearl Harbor: April 42, "Doolittles Raiders" - USA did bomb mainland Japan, from a USA carrier group on a one way flight over Japan to China. Japan's skeerd reality was falling on their heads.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doolittle_Raid
(May of 42, USA stops Japan from invading Austrailia, 'Battle of Coral Sea.")
5) Only 6 months after Pearl Harbor: June 42, "Battle of Midway," - Japan's 'failure of an offensive force' is sank when they tried to take a teeny tiny island, Midway.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Midway
6) Only 8 months after Pearl Harbor, August 42, Guadalcanal Campaign - USA's takes a Japan occupied island, the path of 'Island hopping' to Japan's mainland is in motion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guadalcanal_Campaign
pwnt, sooo sowwy
Schlowy, my turn to speak of the fear. I live in Hawaii. I can see Pearl Harbor from my back door. Back when Pearl Harbor was first bombed, we were terrified. Blackouts were enforced for everyone. NO ONE was swimming at beaches because we were finding Midget Submarines and Land Mines that were comming ashore with Japanese markings on them. The island of Ni'ihau, a privately owned island, was considered to be in such a great risk of being invaded and occupied, the ENTIRE ISLAND, from ONE END TO THE OTHER was ploughed. They dug DEEP ditches so no aircraft could land. The submerged cars, metal parts, and any object they could find in both natural and artificial harbors to make a shore-landing more difficult. Internment camps were created and EVERYONE of Japanese ancestry was forced into these camps while MARSHALL LAW was declared. We were truly afraid we would be invaded. And if you would care to deny any of this evidence, I can walk out onto my street and innocent men and women who suffered in those camps. Soldiers who manned the guns and enforced the blackouts. Pictures of Ni'ihau ploughed over and booby trapped to "keep the Japs out". We were genuinely afraid.
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Dude, USA was producing fiters in less than 1min. <--- i said fiter, not p38 only.
Ack Ack
I'm not silly, you '1 bomb at each usa factory wins the war' crowd are.
Summed up, JAPAN DID NOT TAKE Pearl Harbor, they ONLY bombed it.
TRUE FEAR WOULD BE IF THEY ACTUALLY TOOK IT.
Four months later we bombed Doolittles Raiders DID BOMB Japan.
Day after pearl harbor I bet the beaches were still full with peolpe SWIMMING AT THE BEACHES next to those cannons and up and down the whole west Coast, well maybe not, it was DECEMBER LoL. The beaches were NOT LAND MINED LOL.
About my sig, if the BoB is proof the spitty was better, then the Battle of Dieppe is proof the 109 was better.
A day after Pearl Harbor, most of the island was still under curfew because they believed that there was going to be an imminent Japanese invasion. All beaches were closed and both the US Army and Marines set up defensive positions on all beaches were Japanese naval infantry were expected to land. All civilian vehicle traffic was forbidden, the entire fishing fleet was forbidden to leave the docks and a mandatory blackout from dusk to dawn. All civilian airfields were taken over by the army and all civilian planes grounded and martial law was declared. Residents were fingerprinted and identification cards issued, which had to be carried at all times. Residents and businesses could not hold more than $200 in cash. Japanese owned businesses were shut down. Local police, FBI and Army arrested many residents who were considered dangerous
Read your history books and find out what happened to the first group of US Navy fighters that arrived at Pearl shortly after the attack. Hint: Not all of them landed.
Read the story of the Battle of Los Angeles and then try and tell me that fear of a Japanese attack wasn't present.
If there was no fear of Japanese attack or 5th Columnist sabotage on the West Coast, why were the Japanese in this country sent to internment camps?
No, the Battle of Dieppe did not prove the bf109 was any better than the Spitfire, just like the Battle of Britain didn't prove the Spitfire was any better than the Bf 109. You should try reading about the aerial battle that took place over Dieppe and you'll understand why the RAF was not able to achieve tactical aerial superiority over the battle field. Here's another hint: The RAF fighters faced the same issues over Dieppe that the Luftwaffe fighters faced over England during the Battle of Britain. If you know that answer then you'll understand why the RAF couldn't acheive tactical aerial superority over the beaches of Dieppe.
ack-ack
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Serenity you have some pretty fair writing skills and I'm sure a drive to better yourself. With that I'll offer this advice:
Try writing in the third person. Not only will it be how you'll write a science report but it will also help alleviate confusion amongst the members of the board who might get the idea that you're a reincarnated Japanese resident of 1941 Hawaii.
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Again, its not like the Japanese actually TOOK the island, nor did they sink the carriers. Most of the fear was probly the usa goverment just hoping to motivate its people - wake the sleeping giant.' Japan couldn't invade the tiniest island of the Alaskan chain up there.
Serenity, ok, defensive measures were implemented; but, anyone with a brain knows that the Japs best chance of taking the island was the day that they sneak attacked it. Every hour that passed, the fear factor probly dropped by half. Kinda like 911, planes were grounded... for a few days.
AckAck, same answer really as above... but for how long? I can see that the fields of Ni'ihau were ploughed probly for the whole war, just incase, but how long were the 'no fishing boats' rule enforced? Some of that stuff was precautionary, 'were at war so we should do this or that' which is totally different from 'we might be invaded, we should mine the whole west coast'.
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They aren't talking about what happened, but rather about what people at the time were afraid would happen.
Imagine what your average civilian thought would happen if a few Japanese BBs decided to lay off the coast and bombard San Francisco or San Diego? What do you think 14", 16" or 18.1" shells would do? I've been out to the fortifications on the Marin headlands many times. A Nagato or Yamato class BB would have dealt with them easily.
The fact that the Japanese wouldn't put such ships and tankers used to get them there at such risk would have been meaningless and unknowable to most civilians. Talking to my grandma I know how people saw things. She still believes that there were arrows cut into the cane fields in Hawaii to show the pilots the way to Pearl. She got angry at me when I told her that proved to be a myth.
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Well thats just it, we have mindsets contaminated by knowledge of the future, they didn't, agreed. But because of this, you can't say they were, nor weren't or to what degree - Skeerd as in storing food in the woods or only cleaning and loading the riffles and shotgun? Granny is one peep.
Lets look at modern times, 9/11:
I thought the arabs were pathetic, and I was angry, but I wasn't skeerd. Within a few days, air travel was back to normal. Bin-Laden blew up 2 buildings in NYC, HE DIDN'T INVADE it. Had the Arabs actually had forces on the ground and flying an Arab flag off the top if the WTC, THEN it would've been a different story?
Same same!
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Fifteen days after the attack on Pearl Life magazine ran an article designed to bolster courage of the public and offer suggestions if attacked. Also in the same issue were suggestions on how to properly identify Japanese aircraft.
"If you see the full underside silhouette, a bomb may hit near you in the next split second. If you see the full front view, you should throw yourself on the ground against possible machine-gun fire"
Also included were (rascist) suggestions on how to tell Chinese from Japanese and this also fostered brutal action by condoning and encouraging racial hostility.
America is the melting pot of all nations within one and for this to have happened here proves there was indeed fear. That you deny it as adamantly as you do suggests a great deal of immaturity and ignorance both in my opinion.
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Serenity you have some pretty fair writing skills and I'm sure a drive to better yourself. With that I'll offer this advice:
Try writing in the third person. Not only will it be how you'll write a science report but it will also help alleviate confusion amongst the members of the board who might get the idea that you're a reincarnated Japanese resident of 1941 Hawaii.
I used terms like "we were terrified" to mean "we" the united states. I didn't think there would be confusion, but thank you for pointing it out. I will make a point of avoiding such confusing statements next time around.
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Make a detailed comparison of P-38 production, from start to finish, to the production of German fighters. It is like daylight and dark.
Not the same graph now is it. My point was the German "jump" of production numbers in 1944. I do not have data on P-38 production numbers, but I'd be happy to see...both ;)
Late war German aircraft did get referred to as crudely built BTW, and that even applied to the 262...
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I used terms like "we were terrified" to mean "we" the united states. I didn't think there would be confusion, but thank you for pointing it out. I will make a point of avoiding such confusing statements next time around.
He is right.
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Japan couldn't invade the tiniest island of the Alaskan chain up there.
Please, tell me this was a joke. :uhoh
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Japan couldn't invade the tiniest island of the Alaskan chain up there.
Congratulations on upping the ante for stupidity in this thread. In fact, you've cornered the market. The Aleutian Island chain WAS invaded, and some were held for quite some time.
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Lets settle this once and for all, Somebody give this dork a few sheets of plywood, and a jig saw. Let him build a simple 12 "foot" (need to be sure he understand the units), jig. Nothing too complicated. We'll give him an hour to finish just the jig, not a whole plane.
I get to drop the one bomb on his house while he works. Lets see if he can finish just the jig :D
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What is an inch foot inch? :devil You could have wrote "'". :D
An example of a plywood assembly jig. :rolleyes:
(http://www.triumph-eng.com/images/engine_case.jpg)
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Ahh, well that's looks doable. An hour, huh? OK, Showy get to it, Ack-Ack keeps time and Virgil throws the bomb. He really does deserve it after all this.
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What is an inch foot inch? :devil You could have wrote "'". :D
An example of a plywood assembly jig. :rolleyes:
(http://www.triumph-eng.com/images/engine_case.jpg)
I could build that jig in an hour.
What I want to know is this. The one bomb used to take out the plywood jig, is it 250lbs, 500lbs, or a 1,000lbs? That makes a huge difference you know.
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Precision bombing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_balloon
-C+
Mossie jigs: http://www.mosquitorestoration.com/gallery02.shtml
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Sometimes factory bombing worked,sometimes it didn't....
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Precision bombing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_balloon
-C+
Mossie jigs: http://www.mosquitorestoration.com/gallery02.shtml
Awesome links!
MOre precision bombings...the master of WW2:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No._617_Squadron_RAF
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/2e/617sqn-600.jpg)
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-C+
Mossie jigs: http://www.mosquitorestoration.com/gallery02.shtml
Hey, he said plywood jigs, not plywood aircraft. ;)
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Yes japan did take one of those tiny little snowy islands DUH. Had nuthing on it at all, right? Was it even defended? Let me guess, 'big bad japan' killed a single eskimo familly? Nobody cared that they were even there. They couldn't even do anything from there. They didn't take pearl harbor, and they didn't take alaska either, not even two of the small islands? LOL
If you think that was an invasion, I know for a fact that the Nazi's invaded a small school in Milwauki, Wisconsin. Well, atleast 2 5th graders made a flag out of a white sheet and some red paint and some black paint, and ran it up the school's flagpole in the middle of the night, GOOD MORNING! :uhoh
OMG THE NAZIS TOOK OVER THE WHOLE USA <--- what you fewls sound like, PATHETIC!
1 bomb would not do anything to america, period.
On the other hand, 1 (nuke) american bomb killed a whole city of theirs, twice!
SMARTY PANTS FEWLS... tell us the name of the airbase and where it was located, that kept a large percentage of Japans Airforce on Defense, for most of the war, in FEAR of their own invasion? :huh
Oh and those baloons they launced, documentary I saw said it killed a mother and 2 kids was it? At that, it didn't even explode till after the kid messed with... briliant those japans were? LOL
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This is a perfect example of why the BBS needs a squelch function. We should call it the 'anti-troll' button.
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I repeat:
SMARTY PANTS FEWLS... tell us the name of the airbase and where it was located, that kept a large percentage of Japans Airforce on Defense, for most of the war, in FEAR of their own invasion?
C'mon, yeah the squelching begin.
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Schlowy... you finish that jig yet. :lol
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WOW... how we have strayed from the cool topic I started with... LOL!!
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Back to topic, 1 bomb would not interupt p38 production at all.
Japan didn't take Pearl Harbor, they only bombed it, USA wasn't skeerd.
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Yes japan did take one of those tiny little snowy islands DUH. Had nuthing on it at all, right? Was it even defended? Let me guess, 'big bad japan' killed a single eskimo familly? Nobody cared that they were even there. They couldn't even do anything from there. They didn't take pearl harbor, and they didn't take alaska either, not even two of the small islands? LOL
If you think that was an invasion, I know for a fact that the Nazi's invaded a small school in Milwauki, Wisconsin. Well, atleast 2 5th graders made a flag out of a white sheet and some red paint and some black paint, and ran it up the school's flagpole in the middle of the night, GOOD MORNING! :uhoh
OMG THE NAZIS TOOK OVER THE WHOLE USA <--- what you fewls sound like, PATHETIC!
From reading your posts, it's plain to see that history isn't your strong point as well as having the inability to have an intelligent conversation.
Here's a small history lesson for you on the Aleutian Islands Campaign.
The Aleutian Islands campaign was a struggle over the Aleutian Islands, part of Alaska, in the Pacific campaign of World War II. A small Japanese force occupied the islands of Attu and Kiska, but the remoteness of the islands and the difficulties of weather and terrain meant that it took nearly a year for a large U.S. force to eject them. The islands' strategic value is their ability to control Pacific Great Circle routes. Current air flights between Los Angles and Tokyo pass the Aleutians. This control of the Pacific transportation routes is why General Billy Mitchell stated to Congress in 1935 "I believe that in the future, whoever holds Alaska will hold the world. I think it is the most important strategic place in the world." The Japanese reasoned that control of the Aleutians would prevent a possible U.S. attack across the Northern Pacific. Similarly, the U.S. feared that the islands would be used as bases from which to launch aerial assaults against the West Coast.
The battle is known as the "Forgotten Battle," due to being overshadowed by the simultaneous Guadalcanal campaign. In the past most western military historians believed it was a diversionary or feint attack during the Battle of Midway meant to draw out the US Pacific Fleet from Pearl Harbor, and was in fact launched simultaneously under the same overall commander, Isoroku Yamamoto. However, historians Jonathan Parshall and Anthony Tully have made an argument against this interpretation, stating that the Japanese invaded the Aleutians to protect the northern flank of their empire and did not intend it as a diversion.
The Aleutian Island Campaign was also one of the bloodiest campaigns we fought against the Japanese and the first time since 1812 that an enemy force invaded and occupied US territory.
ack-ack
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From reading your posts, it's plain to see that history isn't your strong point as well as having the inability to have an intelligent conversation.
summed up: USA wasn't skeerd, they were.
They failed:
I) Had Japan actually taken Pearl Harbor (Hawaii), maybe USA peeps would have been nervous, but even with their 'sneak attack,' they couldn't take it. USA wasn't skeerd.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_Pearl_Harbor
2) USA carriers weren't in Pearl Harbor, even Yamamoto said "I FEAR all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve." A few hours after they started it, Japan was skeerd.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isoroku_Yamamoto%27s_sleeping_giant_quote
They got pwnt:
3) Only 12 days after Pearl Harbor: Flying Tigers, USA pilots in USA planes, P40s, are kicking Japan arse on thier side of the world. USA airpower was 'over there' before pearl harbor - Japan's attack wasn't so secret.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_tigers
4) Only 4 months after Pearl Harbor: April 42, "Doolittles Raiders" - USA did bomb mainland Japan, from a USA carrier group on a one way flight over Japan to China. Japan's skeerd reality was falling on their heads.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doolittle_Raid
(May of 42, USA stops Japan from invading Austrailia, 'Battle of Coral Sea.")
5) Only 6 months after Pearl Harbor: June 42, "Battle of Midway," - Japan's 'failure of an offensive force' is sank when they tried to take a teeny tiny island, Midway.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Midway
6) Only 8 months after Pearl Harbor, August 42, Guadalcanal Campaign - USA's takes a Japan occupied island, the path of 'Island hopping' to Japan's mainland is in motion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guadalcanal_Campaign
pwnt, sooo sowwy
Not a bad timeline, but the wikipidea makes me question the research that went into it.
From reading your posts, it's plain to see that history isn't your strong point as well as having the inability to have an intelligent conversation.
AckAck, a Gold Member disagrees with you! I suggest you go see rules about personal attacks! :rofl
You must be one of ehmmcough's women!
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I repeat:
SMARTY PANTS FEWLS... tell us the name of the airbase and where it was located, that kept a large percentage of Japans Airforce on Defense, for most of the war, in FEAR of their own invasion?
C'mon, yeah the squelching begin.
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AckAck, a Gold Member disagrees with you! I suggest you go see rules about personal attacks! :rofl
You must be one of ehmmcough's women!
Not only do you need a lesson in history but you also need to grow a thicker skin if you're offended because you cannot hold an intelligent conversation.
The time line was never in question nor part of the debate. It's just your highly ignorant interpretation of the events that have come into question. Though I do respect your tenacity, most when faced with evidence showing how incorrect they were would have folded by now but you keep on chugging on down the road of ignorance.
ack-ack
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You shame yourself and these boards. :aok
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Battle of Guadalcanal, was fought between August 7, 1942, and February 9, 1943.
6) Only 8 months after Pearl Harbor, August 42, Guadalcanal Campaign - USA's takes a Japan occupied island, the path of 'Island hopping' to Japan's mainland is in motion.
That is 14 months, not 8 months, to take the island of Guadalcanal. :rolleyes:
Not only is he history challenged but also math challenged.
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Ok, I would insert "started to take"... point is, the Japan is clearly on the defense and losing, on their side of the world. And if it wasn't for the European theatre... Japan had been done within... within a week! :D
Grats on finally catching that Milo! Shame on those of you who didn't! :)
Heres some math for you:
One Schlowy with 46 posts is clearly clowning the a large number of anti-USA propogandists with the ranks of gold and platinum!
Let me enrage a few of you!
USA! wasn't skeerd yesterday
USA! aint skeerd now
USA! won't be skeerd tomorrow
USA! USA! USA!
:furious :furious <---Milo and AckAck
Me thinks you two also hate germany so I say to you...
haha, no i'm not getting banned, close one, almost had me... :rofl
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One Schlowy with 46 posts is clearly clowning the a large number of anti-USA propogandists with the ranks of gold and platinum!
Well you got the clown bit right.
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Me thinks you two also hate germany so I say to you...
Nope.
Now for those that extol the greatness of NAZI Germany, like Barbi and Gene the dancing machine, one has to question their political affiliation.
It is clear you are not going to advance past zinc.
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Lockheed was building B-17's at the Burbank plant, if memory serves correct. They even built a prototype with four Allison engines. It was fast, and had range. An electrical fire destroyed it, again, if memory serves correct.
Yes Lockheed and Douglas were both helping Boeing produce it's B-17's. Lockheed and Douglas combined produced just over 5,000 while Boeing produced approx 7,500. The Boeing plant in Seattle was also camouflaged, I wish picture hangar was still up I'd post a picture of it.
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Schlowy, I am not sure you realize that since Japan was way out of being bombed by the USA, a Japanese control of all pacific islands as well as a Navy big enough to face the US navy (an issue first cleared after Midway, - roughly), - would have been a very bad thing for the USA, and it did get close to that.
The Japs didn't plan a conquest on the US mainland, - they wanted to neutralize the US (And the British, which were in a tough spot at the time), so by the time of recovery there would only be the negotiation table.
The US worries were IMHO correct. Camouflage vulnerable and vital installations possibly within enemy's range.
And the US still does...and way more :D I've seen them fence off blocks with barbed wire on possible terrorist attacks on "yellow", in Iceland, - before 9/11 :rolleyes:
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Yes, sure man, but its not like the japanese actually took Hawaii... why go half way?
Had they actually taken the place, that would have been a big time jumping off spot to the mainland, they may have even been able to capture some of those battleships or restore them. What if they had taken hawaii and taken our aircraft carriers intact? Maybe a reason to pack the car if they took hawaii.
Even still, Japan was all tied up in China, moving way to slow? Kicking their defenseless buts but still, there was alot of chinese then too, and lots of ground to take. Japans force was small again? Japan army mostly rifflemen walking? USA would have been able to put up a better defense than China for sure, westcoast just drive east if worst. Industrial capital of the world probly, only we were making cars?
There has been much speculation on whether or not USA gov knew pearl harbor was coming or not.
Had the Japans intended to actually take the island, and brought troops to do so, maybe more than only the USA carriers would have been out about and awake that Sunday morning?
First questioned probly asked:
Did the Japs take the islands? No
Did they sink all or stuff? No, their carriers didn't get our carriers.
Hence USA still had its carriers to bomb their carriers and stuff too.
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... and stuff. I remember my first color pop-out book on German Military hardware of WWII. :aok :rofl
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I shame myself as I refuse to be deterred by insignificant things like facts and history :aok
There ya go Trolly, now get back out there and keep truckin'. Dozens are depending on your posts for a good laugh. It's like watching the George of the Jungle cartoon opening sequence on a loop.
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Ugh, my brain hurts from reading the posts of Schlowy, however, I did not know about the hiding of the Lockheed plant in WWII. You would think we would learn about cool stuff like this in school, but noooo, we learn about pretzels, war bonds, and victory gardens instead! : P
I cannot wait to get out of U.S. history and into other histories. :rock
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Ugh, my brain hurts from reading the posts of Schlowy, however, I did not know about the hiding of the Lockheed plant in WWII. You would think we would learn about cool stuff like this in school, but noooo, we learn about pretzels, war bonds, and victory gardens instead! : P
I cannot wait to get out of U.S. history and into other histories. :rock
Take an AP U.S. History class. We might be nerds, but we're wildly entertaining nerds.
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Yes, sure man, but its not like the japanese actually took Hawaii... why go half way?
Had they actually taken the place, that would have been a big time jumping off spot to the mainland, they may have even been able to capture some of those battleships or restore them. What if they had taken hawaii and taken our aircraft carriers intact? Maybe a reason to pack the car if they took hawaii.
Even still, Japan was all tied up in China, moving way to slow? Kicking their defenseless buts but still, there was alot of chinese then too, and lots of ground to take. Japans force was small again? Japan army mostly rifflemen walking? USA would have been able to put up a better defense than China for sure, westcoast just drive east if worst. Industrial capital of the world probly, only we were making cars?
There has been much speculation on whether or not USA gov knew pearl harbor was coming or not.
Had the Japans intended to actually take the island, and brought troops to do so, maybe more than only the USA carriers would have been out about and awake that Sunday morning?
First questioned probly asked:
Did the Japs take the islands? No
Did they sink all or stuff? No, their carriers didn't get our carriers.
Hence USA still had its carriers to bomb their carriers and stuff too.
Pearl Harbour was a very well planned raid, and aimed at the carriers. It was sheer luck that they had just left before the raid, as well as it was sheer clumsiness on US behalf getting just the BB's sunk in the first place.
It was a dicey raid, and not planned as a conquest. The whole thing was about absolute Naval superioriy.
I am not sure that the Japs would have packed enough power to take Pearl anyway, without leaving something else out....like the Philippines.
Small island with lots of defenders and guns....Iwo Jima would have been a joke compared to it.
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I sure hope its better than a.p. world history... *blarf*
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Angus, I'm impressed, you might just be smarter than the whole Japanese armed forces command in 1941. Why in the hell didn't they take Hawaii and try to not only deprive USA of all ships or carriers that may have been there, but also maybe capture the half of them intact? They should have taken Hawaii instead of the Philippines. Philippines was on their side of the globe, and it had no prizes to compare with a whole fleet.
Take Hawaii, AND capture the fleet... then maybe coastal USA mite have been really skeerd.
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Charge, Nice mossie link thx,if I ever build a boat I want it to look just like that!!
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I sure hope its better than a.p. world history... *blarf*
Probably is. We dont have AP world here, just APUSH. Its not just the class, its the students. AP and Honors students seem really uptight, always doing their homework, not drinking or smoking, etc. but theyre ****ing crazy! lol. Its just a different sense of humor, at least here. Fart jokes are replaced by space-time-continuum jokes.
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Probably is. We dont have AP world here, just APUSH. Its not just the class, its the students. AP and Honors students seem really uptight, always doing their homework, not drinking or smoking, etc. but theyre ****ing crazy! lol. Its just a different sense of humor, at least here. Fart jokes are replaced by space-time-continuum jokes.
A lot different than my APUSH class.
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A lot different than my APUSH class.
Really? All of my higher level classes are like that. I guess we're just super-nerds or something then.
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Angus, I'm impressed, you might just be smarter than the whole Japanese armed forces command in 1941. Why in the hell didn't they take Hawaii and try to not only deprive USA of all ships or carriers that may have been there, but also maybe capture the half of them intact? They should have taken Hawaii instead of the Philippines. Philippines was on their side of the globe, and it had no prizes to compare with a whole fleet.
Take Hawaii, AND capture the fleet... then maybe coastal USA mite have been really skeerd.
The Phillippines provided valuable resources and bases in which to defend the homeland. Japan's intent was never to invade Hawaii, the plan was to destroy the US fleet and force the United States to the negotiating table. The Japanese leaders actually believed that we would not go to war (due to the popular isolationist movement) and would negotiate a settlement that would allow Japan to retain it it's conquests in the East.
Honestly, if you're going to debate a subject, do yourself a favor and at least try and educate yourself on it.
ack-ack
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Japan's intent was never to invade Hawaii, the plan was to destroy the US fleet and force the United States to the negotiating table.
Why in the hell didn't they take Hawaii and try to not only deprive USA of all ships or carriers that may have been there, but also maybe capture the half of them intact?
Take Hawaii, AND capture the fleet... then maybe coastal USA mite have been really skeerd.
AckAck, you seem Argu-Argu(mentative), second two quotes are same thing as first but an even bigger lever to 'force to the USA to negotiate.'
Except for this part:
Honestly, if you're going to debate a subject, do yourself a favor and at least try and educate yourself on it.
ack-ack
Which seems like its only intent is to 'flame.' Do youself a favor and go check ROC.
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And he hits the tree again... :aok
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Great find Mr.Fink! :aok :aok :aok :aok
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Except for this part:Which seems like its only intent is to 'flame.' Do youself a favor and go check ROC.
Guess you should have read Rule 5.
5- Flamebaiting, trolling, or posting to incite or annoy is not allowed.
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Angus, I'm impressed, you might just be smarter than the whole Japanese armed forces command in 1941. Why in the hell didn't they take Hawaii and try to not only deprive USA of all ships or carriers that may have been there, but also maybe capture the half of them intact? They should have taken Hawaii instead of the Philippines. Philippines was on their side of the globe, and it had no prizes to compare with a whole fleet.
Take Hawaii, AND capture the fleet... then maybe coastal USA mite have been really skeerd.
I have something in my favour....67 years of what happened after Pearl within easy grabs.
I mentioned IWO, where the USA took an island vastly smaller than Haway, with absolute naval and air as well as troop superiority, yet it was a very bloody victory. Chici Jima (SP?) which was a Japanese stronghold wasn't even tried, just bombed.
Haway was a US stronghold with lots of potential, and very far from Japan. There is no way they could have done it IMHO, and YAmamoto's view of things will today hold scrutiny. He concluded that a war with the USA would not be won, - the only way would be to give the knockout in the first round, and for that Naval superiority was vital.
JApan needed to sink the US carriers and basically neutralize their naval power by that, since in his (correct) view, capital ships were obsolete in modern warfare against carrier groups. He concluded that Japan could not hold out to a continuing was against the USA. And he had studied in the USA..
so....read up schlowy