Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: 20mmrain on September 06, 2008, 07:54:18 PM
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I have had some problems with turning and keeping my E up. I adjust my throttle slowly but i think were my problem is in the speed of how I'm pulling my joystick. I know this Question is very vague but if I can hear all different point of views on this I think I can get this straightened out. Thankyou 20mmrain
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If you make a tight turn you're going to bleed E... period. You can do a high yo-yo to try to conserve it (climb while your turning and then dive when you're done; this helps you turn tighter as well), but you're still going to be bleeding E.
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Generally speaking a turn or other maneuver is either going to cost you either speed or altitude. The idea of conserving your E is to make sure you're trading either speed for altitude or the other way around. If you're going to turn you either want to be nose low to help negate the speed loss, or you want to go nose high to trade that speed to altitude. Also you want as much power available as your plane can give you to help regain what E that is inevitably lost.
Maybe someone else can explain it better but I think that's the straight forward answer to your question. However there are times when you won't want to do any of the things I just talked about. The trick in my humble opinion is to make the E you do use count for something. There are several times when I'll turn with the throttle back because I'm TRYING to burn more E than my opponent, while trying to get him to over shoot me for example. I think it's not as much about frantically trying to conserve your energy state as it is about managing it, knowing when to let it go to gain angles and when to conserve it while bleeding the other guy dry.
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Yea, to simplify what Soulyss says. Turn like a corkscrew, never flat. Watch WWII fighter films they always go up, roll then come around partially inverted, that cuts the angle and saves E.
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You can do a high yo-yo to try to conserve it
In my opinion, learning how to and when to use the hi and lo yo-yo's is one of the first steps into the world of air combat manuevers that every pilot should take. Simply understanding what the yo-yo's are and what they do for you is a big step in improving your E-management.
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In my opinion, learning how to and when to use the hi and lo yo-yo's is one of the first steps into the world of air combat manuevers that every pilot should take. Simply understanding what the yo-yo's are and what they do for you is a big step in improving your E-management.
Definitely...Most people don't think 3 dimensionally very well, so using the oblique turns to cut angles and conserve E is not natural or intuitive for most.
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A small part of the puzzle:
Every plane has an IAS where it maintains its best rate of turn, corner velocity. WWII prop airplanes have a problem though. They do not have the power to MAINTAIN high-G turns at corner velocity, the induced drag causes them to dump speed in high-G turns, they can only sustain a much lower rate of turn.
Therefore, considerable thought and trickery goes into how and when to use energy, when to conserve and when to pull hard turns in these airplanes. For instance, at the beginning of an engagement, you will generally be well above corner speed. You could just cut throttle and reef around in a hard turn to get down to corner speed, but then all that energy would be gone and you can't get it back easily. So you can reverse with an Immelman, which kills two birds with one stone by getting the speed down quickly AND putting some of that speed in the bank as altitude.
Air speed is your money in your wallet. Altitude is your money in the bank. Act accordingly.
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Im gonna assume your question comes from fight near the deck. If you are not on the deck you can always shallow dive or shallow spiral down to keep at corner speed.
But when you get on the deck or trapped by terrain its another matter.
When this happens it becomes very important to keep at least 200 feet above the deck. When you get slower with a con on your six or chasing one at this alt energy becomes extremly important.
What most people dont understand is that you can get considerable energy over your opponent by shallow diving to the deck. Most people panic when the get below 100 feet. If you have 100 feet you can use all of it to get an advantage.
Playing the 0 to 500 feet game can get you angles and energy. Remember if they dont play the same game you get both back.
When speed drop below 250 and especially blow 150 a 50 foot alt advantage become golden. And a 50 foot dip to the deck is the same thing. If they dont dip and you do you have more energy and can get around or over the top before they do.
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You could just cut throttle and reef around in a hard turn to get down to corner speed, but then all that energy would be gone and you can't get it back easily.
Except in a Spit XVI (depending on the situation). That's a very useful tactic in the XVI with it's great acceleration.
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Except in a Spit XVI (depending on the situation). That's a very useful tactic in the XVI with it's great acceleration.
Watch films of Shane is his La7 as an example of this. When he's in tight that's exactly what he does. He dumps his E, seducing you into dumping yours too, then out accelerates you to create an E advantage out of thin air...Acceleration is an important and infrequentally considered plane attribute.
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:aok
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Well zazen that's exactly the problem. Now I know the LA7 can accelerate very well and has a high top speed too. But I fly the spit's, 109,s ki84,s niki's and any other small and nimble plane. But the problem with that is they don't always accelerate the best. For example I know most of the trainers are uber pilots ( texture ect..) But when I'm flying against them we start with our merges, then we usually start turning and battling for postion. I can stay with them for a few revolutions until i either have to engage flaps or put my nose really far down to regain E. They seem to do these turns without going to wide to give me the advantage or without loosing any E and they almost seem to be at full speed! ( when I'm turning against them I'm not doing Flat turns.) How are turning without Having these problems!
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Simple fix: fly the SpitXVI and you won't bleed e in hard turns.
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But when I'm flying against them we start with our merges, then we usually start turning and battling for postion. I can stay with them for a few revolutions until i either have to engage flaps or put my nose really far down to regain E. They seem to do these turns without going to wide to give me the advantage or without loosing any E and they almost seem to be at full speed! ( when I'm turning against them I'm not doing Flat turns.) How are turning without Having these problems!
Don't worry so much about it. Training in the TA against someone that knows you're there and knows you're going to attack isn't the normal way of a merge. In the MA you're going to find that your enemy probably most of the time isn't going to see you or expect you if you plan your attack well. That's very important. Your attack should be planned well before the merge. When you attack you should already be in a very advantagous position. In the TA this rarely happens even if you set it up that way to train because you have no surprise factor working for you. The idea of air combat is to make the enemy a sitting duck so you can kill him as fast and efficiently as possible. It saves time, fuel and ammo. The WW1 style of "ring around the rosey" (turn and burn) dogfight is a waste of time and resources. Try to think far ahead of the fight to get that clean quick kill then all the other problems don't become, well... problems anymore.
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Well zazen that's exactly the problem. Now I know the LA7 can accelerate very well and has a high top speed too. But I fly the spit's, 109,s ki84,s niki's and any other small and nimble plane. But the problem with that is they don't always accelerate the best. For example I know most of the trainers are uber pilots ( texture ect..) But when I'm flying against them we start with our merges, then we usually start turning and battling for postion. I can stay with them for a few revolutions until i either have to engage flaps or put my nose really far down to regain E. They seem to do these turns without going to wide to give me the advantage or without loosing any E and they almost seem to be at full speed! ( when I'm turning against them I'm not doing Flat turns.) How are turning without Having these problems!
Yea, don't pull for lead right away. Use lag pursuit. If you pull for lead turns from the beginning they are effectively bleeding you dry. Stay at your optimal turn and use lag pursuit turns until you are ready to go to guns then switch to lead turn.
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But when I'm flying against them we start with our merges, then we usually start turning and battling for postion. I can stay with them for a few revolutions until i either have to engage flaps or put my nose really far down to regain E. They seem to do these turns without going to wide to give me the advantage or without loosing any E and they almost seem to be at full speed! ( when I'm turning against them I'm not doing Flat turns.) How are they turning without Having these problems!
"Know and use all the capabilities of your airplane. If you don't, sooner
or later, some guy who does use them all will kick your ass."
Lieutenant Dave"Preacher"Pace, USN
U.S.Navy Fighter Weapons School Instructor
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Yea, don't pull for lead right away. Use lag pursuit. If you pull for lead turns from the beginning they are effectively bleeding you dry. Stay at your optimal turn and use lag pursuit turns until you are ready to go to guns then switch to lead turn.
Exactly. I never use lead pusuit until I'm ready to go for the kill shot.
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I have had some problems with turning and keeping my E up. I adjust my throttle slowly but i think were my problem is in the speed of how I'm pulling my joystick.
This kind of stuck out to me. Until I have aquired the positional advantage, it's very rare that I am not a max availible power.
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Again zazen that's another good piece of advice. So thankyou for it:) As far as the Ma Vs. DA or TA statement, I completely agree that in real combat in the Ma you hardly ever merge or start fighting like you do in the DA or TA. But I believe that dueling is a very important training tool. For a couple of reasons.
1.) You know (within reason) the other person's merge and it makes the kill that much harder.
2.) You also get to experience allot of people's fighting styles! Which gives you more chances to practice with that individual's style with out people interrupting.
I know that was a little off the subject i just felt the need to comment on it. But i do appreciate the advice. Well Thank you for the added comments and i will definitely try a few. I also will keep checking in for more advice. It seems that people have allot of tips on this subject..... which is very helpful. Thank you again guys:)
20mmrain
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The thing I've heard from Rolex in the training squad and from reading these forums, is that a good pilot tries to gain an E advantage, until the point that they think they can get a killshot, they they "spend" some of their E to get and take the shot. If you can make the other guy spend his E and not get yourself all shot up, you can turn around an E disadvantage to an E advantage. Similarly, if you're a good shot, you can kill people while spending less of your E.
A lot easier to say than to do though. I'm still waiting to get a 1 to 1 kill to death ratio in a tour. But I'm learning and getting better.
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Yes murdr I caught the same thing, it almost jumped off the page at me.
20mm there is a time for throttle work, but when your blowing E in turns is not that time.
To reduce speed closer to corner speed so you can turn inside someone maybe, just maybe. But not most corners.
Using the vertical really is crucial, immelman's, obliques, yoyo's are all vital tools.
The other thing that several have mentioned, but didn't really explain well, was flying in lag pursuit to
horde your E. So your chasing this bogey, and you see that 1.2k out he makes a very sharp left break turn.
Trying to get back around on you. Instead of pointing your nose at him, continue your path closer to where he turned.
Then make a smoother, less E loss turn than he did. Preferably holding an altitude advantage coming out of it.
What your attempting to do, is get behind him, but far enough back so he doesn't feel TOO threatened.
Then as he becomes more and more concerned his moves will become more violent, E wasteful. You cut across the corners because your in a position to anticipate where he's going. He's blowing chunks of E, and your flying smooth and saving yours. End result you'll have E and he's going to be flopping around on the deck without any. Now you still need to know how to USE that E you gained. But your closer to the solution.
Doing this while maintaining SA, not letting him get nose around to kill you, this is what takes time and practice.
Come see me in the TA some afternoon, I think we need to get you into a val fight. :)
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ghosth that is a really good answer and it explains the most out of everyone i think I've heard here. Now I'm fairly good at using the E effectively once i have the advantage but getting that E advantage is were I have the first problem. Sometimes I get it right sometimes not. I was training with texture last night and besides those words i just said he all so suggested I need to spend some more time with good sticks just to hoan my skills. He said I have it all there I just make bad tactical choices sometimes. I would really like to meet up with you sometime to. So I can get another opinion. I will take all the training I can get Because I want to be the best i can be:)
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What I could see from the last night session and as you've mentioned, it comes down to timing ie choices. Basically, you manage E well, but the timing of your transition from E to angles (and reverse) is not always optimal and you often lose E and any positional advantage you had.
Another thing I've noticed, after you secure E advantage, you very often stuck on the top simply because your low speed handling is not perfect yet (rolling against the torque, stalls, snap rolls, etc).
There's no easy nor quick fix for those but lots of stick time (practice, practice, practice), preferably against/with better pilots.
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There that's better now I don't have to remember what texture exactly said there it was. LOL that makes much easier for people to allberate. Thank you for responding:)
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Simple fix: fly the SpitXVI and you won't bleed e in hard turns.
So the old saying "Its the pilot not the plane" is finally being looked upon as not absolute. Good. ;)
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Spit whiners 20mm, pay them no attention.
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AAAAAhhh yeah I get it!Like I always say people who whine about Spits can't beat them! It's all about the pilot not the Plane. I don't understand why people get mad about that stuff. It's not like the U.S. Said in WW2 in the pacific (in the beginning) Time out japan no fare we don't have planes that can fly with the zero! Can you guys wait till it's fair. LOL Well anyway I'm sure I just started a big fight so this will be intresting!
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That's funny. My K/D ratio against Spits this tour is 21:1, and the majority of my kills are in the 109G-6 (late war arena), so that's a big fat contradiction against your theory.
Unless you're a beginner, man up and learn to fly something other than Spits.
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Well that's fine we can give it a go in the DA for fun once I'm not trying to say WHO better then who but look in the Aircraft and vehicles forums I just started a forum about this subject answer that one if you wanna comment on it.
Thanks for you r comment though:)
20mmrain
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Yeah and before you get too angry about me saying that... Don't. Cause If I duel you and I lose it will be because I pulled a tactical mistake and I was the worse of the two pilots! But I win it would be the same thing the other way! Not the plane we were in!