Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: iTunes on September 14, 2008, 02:35:01 PM
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Just curious if anyone has any knowledge of the above? I was thinking of the D-Day build up and if any German aircraft ever done a fly over of the southern coast.
iTunes
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Just curious if anyone has any knowledge of the above? I was thinking of the D-Day build up and if any German aircraft ever done a fly over of the southern coast.
iTunes
I'm not going to say I'm deep into this but the Normandy buildup, and then invasion, was certainly no secret to the Germans. We went to extreme lengths to create entire armies from Props and inflatable vehicles. I think there was even great fanfare over Patton being given command of one such army just to throw off the Germans. The plan was called "Fortitude" and was created to make the Germans believe we were going to attack at Pas de Calais instead of Normandy and was probably the greatest such success of the entire war.
And yes there were successful flyovers by German reconnaissance aircraft who did report the presence of these phantom armies. And not just in the south either, the Allies also had a similar deception plan in the north of England to make the Germans think we were going to invade Norway too. I dont know what type of German aircraft was used but I dont think the AR-234 was operational yet.
Actually deceiving spy cameras was relatively easy compared to the threat of spies themselves. We bombed the Pas de Calais area far more heavily pre-D-day then we did Normandy to further the deception. So, I dont know what kind of Luftwaffe Reco aircraft was used but I do know there were successful overflights of the buildup by the Germans. In fact we were counting on it.
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I'm not going to say I'm deep into this but the Normandy buildup, and then invasion, was certainly no secret to the Germans. We went to extreme lengths to create entire armies from Props and inflatable vehicles. I think there was even great fanfare over Patton being given command of one such army just to throw off the Germans. The plan was called "Fortitude" and was created to make the Germans believe we were going to attack at Pas de Calais instead of Normandy and was probably the greatest such success of the entire war.
And yes there were successful flyovers by German reconnaissance aircraft who did report the presence of these phantom armies. And not just in the south either, the Allies also had a similar deception plan in the north of England to make the Germans think we were going to invade Norway too. I dont know what type of German aircraft was used but I dont think the AR-234 was operational yet.
Actually deceiving spy cameras was relatively easy compared to the threat of spies themselves. We bombed the Pas de Calais area far more heavily pre-D-day then we did Normandy to further the deception. So, I dont know what kind of Luftwaffe Reco aircraft was used but I do know there were successful overflights of the buildup by the Germans. In fact we were counting on it.
Rich, two of the most likely candidates to be flying recon missions over England prior to the invasion would be the Ju-86p + Ju-86r, although I believe the "p" was removed from service in 1943 and the "r" was limited to prototypes. These were pressurized, high-altitude beasts with ceilings of 40K+.
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Ju-188 perhaps?
It shows the complete failure of the LW that even though they knew troops were amassing, they were not able to hit them. Operation Steinbock showed by that stage that the Germans were incapable of hitting anything anyway.
Rich, two of the most likely candidates to be flying recon missions over England prior to the invasion would be the Ju-86p + Ju-86r, although I believe the "p" was removed from service in 1943 and the "r" was limited to prototypes. These were pressurized, high-altitude beasts with ceilings of 40K+.
I think they withdrew them from service after the RAF started sending up modified Spitfires after them. IIRC the highest recorded confirmed kill ever was made by a modified Spitfire V on a Ju86 over the med at 40,000 or so.
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The only aircraft I have read about getting shot down in the act of recon was identified by the night fighter pilot as a 110.
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Rich, two of the most likely candidates to be flying recon missions over England prior to the invasion would be the Ju-86p + Ju-86r, although I believe the "p" was removed from service in 1943 and the "r" was limited to prototypes. These were pressurized, high-altitude beasts with ceilings of 40K+.
Thanks. It would make for interesting research to track down the exact aircraft that snapped pictures which furthered the effectivness of FORTITUDE. Maybe one day when I have the time.....
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"It shows the complete failure of the LW that even though they knew troops were amassing, they were not able to hit them. Operation Steinbock showed by that stage that the Germans were incapable of hitting anything anyway."
At that stage there was not much of a bomber force to attack anything effectively due to utterly stupid Steibock campaign. And Steinbock operations were flown during the night which explains why they didn't hit "anything" -at least anything specific. And what would they hit? Towns? London? How can you miss London with a bomb? I've been over London in an aircraft and to me it seems impossible.
Being faced with a concentration of NF Mossies operating over London and radar guided AAA batteries I certainly would dump my ordnance along the way into the darkness and head for home, especially if it is evident that the loss rate is very alarming. I also doubt if there was willingness to risk life to get a few bombs on civilian targets, which effect was at that stage known to be nothing.
I don't think German pilots were more incompetent or stupid than aviators of any other nation but they were certainly handicapped by stupid political aspirations of their leadership which went as far as hampering the strategy of how Germany used its diminishing resources both in men and machines.
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Ju-188 perhaps?
I think they withdrew them from service after the RAF started sending up modified Spitfires after them. IIRC the highest recorded confirmed kill ever was made by a modified Spitfire V on a Ju86 over the med at 40,000 or so.
It was over Egypt. And it was closer to 49,000ft. :O Redefines "pilot discomfort" for the poor RAF guy don't ya think?
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The Allies could range far and wide and yet the Germans couldn't get over the Channel ?
I've been looking for RAF reports but can't find any
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"complete failure" ... whatever.
109's and 190s were pwning plenty:
1) Eastern front vs Russia flying Russian and USA aircraft.
2) Southern front vs USA in Italy. (Tuskegees for example)
3) Western front vs USA bombers in the air.
Three out of four isn't bad, considering USA - the 'arsenal of democracy, USA out of it, England would've been porked.
USA pilots and crews fighting at the Russian front vs Germany.
1) While on the topic, USA flying from North Africa to Axis held Romania, oil fields. (usa pilots eastern front)
2) Hartman's interview speaks of USA p51's with USA pilots doing missions on the eastern front.
3) Some incident also of USA bombers and pilots 'accidentally' bombing russian troops ticking off stalin... (my guess was just to show Russia what the USA could do.)
Yep, whatever.
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The UK would have been porked all right, just look at the crushing defeat they suffered during the Battle of Britain.
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:rolleyes: :rolleyes: Poor Scholtz.
It was the complete failure of the LW to do anything about the massive troop build up in GB for the invasion in Normandy.
Furball, I think you will find those were Spit Mk Vs. There was some high altitude interception over GB but these were Spit Mk IXs.
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"complete failure" ... whatever.
109's and 190s were pwning plenty:
1) Eastern front vs Russia flying Russian and USA aircraft.
2) Southern front vs USA in Italy. (Tuskegees for example)
3) Western front vs USA bombers in the air.
Three out of four isn't bad, considering USA - the 'arsenal of democracy, USA out of it, England would've been porked.
USA pilots and crews fighting at the Russian front vs Germany.
1) While on the topic, USA flying from North Africa to Axis held Romania, oil fields. (usa pilots eastern front)
2) Hartman's interview speaks of USA p51's with USA pilots doing missions on the eastern front.
3) Some incident also of USA bombers and pilots 'accidentally' bombing russian troops ticking off stalin... (my guess was just to show Russia what the USA could do.)
Yep, whatever.
So... an air force incapable of effective attack, or one which is unable to defend its own territory or troops. Pwning? Whatever indeed.
"It shows the complete failure of the LW that even though they knew troops were amassing, they were not able to hit them. Operation Steinbock showed by that stage that the Germans were incapable of hitting anything anyway."
At that stage there was not much of a bomber force to attack anything effectively due to utterly stupid Steibock campaign. And Steinbock operations were flown during the night which explains why they didn't hit "anything" -at least anything specific. And what would they hit? Towns? London? How can you miss London with a bomb? I've been over London in an aircraft and to me it seems impossible.
Being faced with a concentration of NF Mossies operating over London and radar guided AAA batteries I certainly would dump my ordnance along the way into the darkness and head for home, especially if it is evident that the loss rate is very alarming. I also doubt if there was willingness to risk life to get a few bombs on civilian targets, which effect was at that stage known to be nothing.
I don't think German pilots were more incompetent or stupid than aviators of any other nation but they were certainly handicapped by stupid political aspirations of their leadership which went as far as hampering the strategy of how Germany used its diminishing resources both in men and machines.
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I agree, they did use pathfinders but even then hardly any bombs landed on London. I also agree that the problems were at a higher level.
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Three out of four isn't bad, considering USA - the 'arsenal of democracy, USA out of it, England would've been porked.
Yep, whatever.
to quote an Americanism : What ever!
for your information the UK would not have been "porked" as the Luftwaffe were losing planes faster than the UK and the UK were building them faster than they were losing them. YOU my friend are mistaken
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To my shallow understanding by 1944 there were primarily two aircraft that were able to operate over Britain:
Arado 240 and Arado 234. The latter, the jet plane, came into use only in the summer/autumm 1944. Before that the sole type capable of operating over British Isles in daylight recon role was Arado 240, that might be described as the German equivalent of Japanese Dinah, for its capability to operate successfully in enemy airspace.
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to quote an Americanism : What ever!
for your information the UK would not have been "porked" as the Luftwaffe were losing planes faster than the UK and the UK were building them faster than they were losing them. YOU my friend are mistaken
Planned since Dunkirk, June 4th 1940... Dieppe Raid, August 19th, 1942
England France and Canada (without USA) got pwnt trying to invade France.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dieppe_Raid
2years and 2months planning... Wikipedia called it a 'scheme' and a 'catastrophe' PWNT! :rofl
I'll add to it, a COMPLETE FAILURE of the 'spitfire' LOLOL proof it suxed:lol
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Planned since Dunkirk, June 4th 1940... Dieppe Raid, August 19th, 1942
England France and Canada (without USA) got pwnt trying to invade France.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dieppe_Raid
2years and 2months planning... Wikipedia called it a 'scheme' and a 'catastrophe' PWNT! :rofl
I'll add to it, a COMPLETE FAILURE of the 'spitfire' LOLOL proof it suxed:lol
Years of planning does nothing to say how significant of an operation or what percentage of resources were committed to it. Yes, it failed, but to count that one operation as "England loses to war" is absurd.
Two can play at that:
El Alamein, the Germans were porked!!1!
Complete hyperbole and absurdity.
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Since when is a RAID an invasion? :rolleyes:
Give it a rest Scholtz.
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Schlowy, it would appear the point furball was making has gone straight over your head. You've assumed that it was a slight against the 109 and 190, it wasn't.
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The highest shoot-down was if my memory serves me done by a Spit V over N-Africa at 43K. Could that be right?
I have had it claimed to my face by a Spit veteran that he made it to 49K in a Spitfire IX, and I tend to rather belive him.
(I asked what he was doing there, and he said "Trying to hit 50K" :D)
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Since when is a RAID an invasion? :rolleyes:
Give it a rest Scholtz.
*lol* Are you going to accuse everyone of being me? :lol
Btw. technically any and all incursions into a county's territory by a hostile military force is by definition an invasion ... a raid is usually just a purposefully short lived one. (Dieppe was shorter than planned though. ;))
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While Dieppe it was a disasterous raid, it did some things.
1. Some troops actually penetrated successfully and got foothold inland. So, it showed possibility.
2. It taught lessons for Normandy in the sense of what was needed and to be avoided.
3. It clearly taught the US that getting the boot into Europe was hard. (They were pressing for an invasion which Churchill claimed to be un-executable in the timeframe).
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Pl
I'll add to it, a COMPLETE FAILURE of the 'spitfire' LOLOL proof it suxed:lol
failure of the spitfire? :huh OK........ how much "reading" do you actually do? (p.s get fire fox it helps me with my spelling)
It was a failure in many ways but it did allow the allies learn vital lessons. One which many US operation could have leant from (Scilly for example) that loss of aircraft for the RAF was almost entirely bombers . therefore I'd like to see how that makes the spitfire suck. If that is the case then the P51 and P47 were spectacular failures as escort fighters when you look at the 8th airforce loss rates, even the 109 and 190 were also failures looking at Luftwaffe losses at BoB .
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190 was not in the BoB.
And after the BoB the RAF was doing naughty missions into German-held territory with those "crap" Spitfires.
The Spitty was a success,and turned out to be a very fine and versatile aircraft. So was the 109. So was the P51.....and so many others....
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yeah I know the 190 wasn't in BoB . was 6 months after in early 1941 the 190 saw first missions over east Anglia. just showing the little twerp how silly he sounds with his arguments . OOO you forgot to mension the very nought Photo Recon spits that flew very high and fast ; taking ickle pictures of the Germans ready for the other spitfires and mossies to attack later that day .
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Does anyone actually know if the Germans penetrated into the Southern Coast? The only thing I found online was a report from the RAF that they had their V1 Interception tactics down and thus by default it was nigh Impossible for a German Aircraft to get up and down the Southern Coast. I have trouble beliving that the Germans could not penetrate Allied Airspace by then,Or maybe they actuallt did, I'm sure someone will have an account for us.
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Karnak has arrived, 10,000+ -posts... with a mossie in his sig...
A brilliant correlation I just realized... I was sitting here having my coffee and toast...
*A planes performance is directly proportional to the total number of posts of a plane sig'ed player*
Data set A: player with a 190 in sig gets a total of 10 posts before he is banned = 190 sux in game
Data set B: player with a mossie in sig gets a total 10,000+ posts and not banned = mossie rules in game
(drum roll)
Me bets this function is linear... brilliance, Imma win the nobel prize! :rofl
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All sides generals studied USA's Civil War battles, pre WW1, WW2's, modern day's generals.
Europe learned from USA also...
Did what I put really bother you? let me put it again :lol
Proof the spitty suxed:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dieppe_Raid
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You are weird.
I neither claim the Mossie sucks in the game nor do I claim it rules. It could be better, but they chose to model it with dampers. How that relates to Fw190s I do not know.
I find it funny how some people are so nationalistic about this hobby. So much so that they have to insist that aircraft X from nation Y has to have sucked in order to validate their liking aircraft A from nation B. I have seen in mostly from fans of British, German and American aircraft. I am sure if we had more English speaking Russian and Japanese players we'd hear it about their aircraft too.
Would the UK have mounted a successful invasion of Europe without the US? No, I highly doubt it.
Could Germany have successfully invaded the UK? No, I highly doubt it.
Had the US not got into the European War, the Soviet Union would have eventually beaten Germany. There is a chance the UK could have saved France and Belgium from inclusion in the Soviet Union by invading them at the last moment, but that is about it.
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Data set A: player with a 190 in sig gets a total of 10 posts before he is banned = 190 sux in game
So you've been banned before? i'm completely bewildered why you are flying off the handle when you perceive something to be a criticism of the 109/190.
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Well. if you keep trolling that much, the doomsday PNG will hit you mighty soon.
As for Dieppe, bear in mind that the RAF is there over German held turf in daylight, which was not the case on the other side in daylight after the fall of 1940. Germans did never CAP over british turf after the BoB :devil
BTW, I personally knew some who were at Dieppe. Tough fight. Odd that the LW had their best over..there :devil
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what?? how does that prove the spit sucks ? really how?
as i said the largest proportion of RAF aircraft that took part in the operation that day were bombers not spitfires or other fighter craft. ergo your assumption that the spitfire sucked is wrong. In fact your "prof" shows that German aircraft sustained heavy losses to a mostly ground attack force making them the craft that "sucked".
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Data set A: player with a 190 in sig gets a total of 10 posts before he is banned = 190 sux in game
Data set B: player with a mossie in sig gets a total 10,000+ posts and not banned = mossie rules in game
No, people get banned for being hostile, insulting people and HTC rather than posting valid data and issues.
I have made many, many posts trying to get the Mosquito's performance to where I think it should be and have been unsuccessful to date. I haven't been banned because I haven't gone nuts over it like the Fw190 fans you refer to.
Be calm, be rational and you don't get banned. Easy.
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Karnak:
"Had the US not got into the European War, the Soviet Union would have eventually beaten Germany. There is a chance the UK could have saved France and Belgium from inclusion in the Soviet Union by invading them at the last moment, but that is about it."
That is a lovely issue for...another thread ;)
It would need more refining though. My look on this is none the less, that it might have ended with a draw.
You see, the US helped stocking up the USSR as well as participating in the med at very crucial times.
Moscow held by a margin, Stalingrad by a hair´s width, and even Kursk was dicey....after that the road was for Berlin....and after Normandy...no question.
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in fact had the UK not sent supplies to miminsk then that port would have fallen to the Germans .
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OIh, Schlowy, you really would need to get a German vet's opinion on ;
A: Fighting Spitfires
B: Flying Spitfires.
I have had some straight in the face....quite interesting.
Then there is also the other side:
A: Fighting in a Spitfire.
B: Flying a Spitfire.
(Hint: the B answer is very similar in both cases)
P.S. Werner Mölders, the LW top ace at the time actually got on the six of a Spitty in his 109, only to get completely outmaneuvered and shot-up. tsk tsk....
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P.S. Werner Mölders, the LW top ace at the time actually got on the six of a Spitty in his 109, only to get completely outmaneuvered and shot-up. tsk tsk....
You should have noted that the Spit pilot was "Sailor" Malan, one of the top RAF pilots. Just any Spit pilot would not have been able to do that to Mölders.
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Hehe, and Mölders, doing exactly the right maneuver to settle on Malan's six (Malan shot his wingman) was also not just "anybody".
Top pilot vs top pilot, 109 Starts on the six....
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My understanding is the LW tended to favor single engined recon a/c over the UK like the Bf109G-2/U2 and Bf 109G-8 for high alt recon missions, rather than the slower twin engined a/c. There was a Fw190A-5/U4 recon a/c, although I have no info on Western Front deployment, it would have been used as a low level maching im sure.
The Fw189 was a tactical recon machine, unsuited to missions over the UK, and the Ju-86p was too vulnerable by 1943. Night time? well, sure, but you dont get much info, so you needed a recon fighter that could fly high, and fast, and get out of there in a hurry. The Arado 234 and Me262 (none were ever flown as recon birds past prototypes) were not available untill after Normandy.
This did limit their efforts, but the biggest problem was not that they did not know about the Allied buildup, they did, it was WHERE and WHEN the invasion was going to land, that was the question they failed to adequately answer in a timely fashion. It is remarkable that even after the Airborne Landings and the Seaborne invasion force was at sea for many hours, that the fact the Allies had landed in Normandy *as the main invasion effort* ,was still not fully understood by the German High Command untill well after the fact, despite being braced for that very eventuality.
I would say the failure was more on the intelligence side, rather than the recon side, although they are linked, as intel gets its info (at least some) from recon sources.
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I have a fine photo of a recce shot down over N-Africa in 1942/43,- it was a 109.
Anyway, flying over the target at high alt is not just enough, it needs to be both clear and bright enough.
And flying for a photo recce from France over to S-England is relatively easy compared to a recce from England to Berlin....bear in mind the time that the aircraft has to use above hostile territory.
On the note of the Germans not recognizing Normandy (vs Pas-de-Calais) as THE landing point, it is indeed amazing. Some things were in the Allied favour though, by mere chance, such as the weather being rough and Hitler completely beliving in Pas-de-Calais. And some part was not a chance at all,such as the dummy-paratroopers and the massive "Window" effort (617 sqn?) which was completely successful in creating an invasion illusion...at Pas-de-Calais.
That is not all though, for if you venture past Normandy and into Holland in September, - operation Market-Garden has it's first flight of some 1.200(?) slow (SLOW!) troop transporters unintercepted! That is low and slow and all!!!!! It was first in the third flight that LW was showing it's teeth.
Well, same as at the beaches of Normandy....now 2 190's? (Priller)
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I'm not going to say I'm deep into this but the Normandy buildup, and then invasion, was certainly no secret to the Germans. We went to extreme lengths to create entire armies from Props and inflatable vehicles. I think there was even great fanfare over Patton being given command of one such army just to throw off the Germans. The plan was called "Fortitude" and was created to make the Germans believe we were going to attack at Pas de Calais instead of Normandy and was probably the greatest such success of the entire war.
...
One of my old high school friends only recently discovered that his Dad was one of the sound engineers who served in the "Ghost Army", the 23rd Headquarters Special Troops. One of the constituent units, the 603rd Camouflage Engineers (http://www.ghostarmy.org/index.php?page=about&category=03--The_Unit&display=25), was responsible for the rubber tanks you mention. My friend's Dad was recruited from Bell Labs to serve in the 3132nd Signal Company (http://www.ghostarmy.org/index.php?page=about&category=03--The_Unit&display=26), which often ran deceptions from sound trucks immediately behind the front lines.
Here is the main link for the film being prepared on the 23rd HQX: http://www.ghostarmy.org/ (http://www.ghostarmy.org/)
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bit like the film "hell is for heroes " with Gregory Peck and Bob Newheart. where they drive the jeep round and round to make it sound like a convoy.
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Well, the whole of the bluffs about Normandy surely worked....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Fortitude
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It was over Egypt. And it was closer to 49,000ft. :O Redefines "pilot discomfort" for the poor RAF guy don't ya think?
Your both wrong.
The highest recorded interception was by a modified Spit 9 from RAF Northolts High Altitude Flight in 1942.
Piloted by Emanuel Galitzine (A Russian Prince) he intercepted a JU-86P at 'around' 43,000ft causing it to jettison its bombs.
Your are correct in that there were either 2 or 3 highly modified Spit 5's that flew out of Egpyt and were for also for intercepting JU-86P's.
It is generally accepted that Galitzines interception was the highest of WW2.
Highest recorded alt (for a Spit) was in a Spit 19 over Hong Kong in 1952 - 51,550ft!!
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Ju86R actually. They identified it as a 86P. Galitzine had one cannon quit working and at such high alt firing one cannon caused the Spit to skid. He hit the 86R one time in the wing, but it was the last time they sent one over England.
Galitzine was also a Spit XII driver with 41 Squadron in 43 and ended up in the MTO flying Spit IXs later. I had a chance to meet him back in the mid 80s when I was hunting Spit XII info. A really nice and helpful gentleman
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Always the nice surprize Guppy :aok