Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: RATTFINK on September 29, 2008, 04:00:31 PM
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(http://l.yimg.com/a/i/ww/news/2008/09/29/dow2.jpg)
Ouch!
Dow Jones Industrial Average
(DJI: ^DJI)
Index Value: 10,365.45
Trade Time: 4:14PM ET
Change: Down 777.68 (6.98%)
Prev Close: 11,143.13
Open: 11,139.62
Day's Range: 10365.45 - 11139.94
52wk Range: 10,403.80 - 14,280.00
http://www.ny1.com/content/features/86427/dow-jones-suffers-largest-point-drop-in-history/Default.aspx
:O
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(http://l.yimg.com/a/i/ww/news/2008/09/29/dow2.jpg)
Ouch!
Dow Jones Industrial Average
(DJI: ^DJI)
Index Value: 10,365.45
Trade Time: 4:14PM ET
Change: Down 777.68 (6.98%)
Prev Close: 11,143.13
Open: 11,139.62
Day's Range: 10365.45 - 11139.94
52wk Range: 10,403.80 - 14,280.00
:O
Money is about to get real, real tight.
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Just in time for a cold winter too. Energy bills that will go unpaid, food shortages, global economic melt down...all due to sub prime lenders and those that signed the dotted line. :uhoh
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Those "ants" that have been saving, and keeping credit card charges to a minimum should get by alright.
Those of you living paycheck to paycheck....start buying large bags of non-perishable foods now at Costco or Sam's so you can still eat.
(http://images.businessweek.com/ss/07/04/0426_dow/image/2_great_depression.jpg)
(http://media-2.web.britannica.com/eb-media/14/95714-004-FEADEDA8.jpg)
(http://www.thickets.net/toren/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/1928-great-depression.jpg)
(http://www.econmacro.com/images/urdep.png)
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Those "ants" that have been saving, and keeping credit card charges to a minimum should get by alright.
Those of you living paycheck to paycheck....start buying large bags of non-perishable foods now at Costco or Sam's so you can still eat.
(http://media-2.web.britannica.com/eb-media/14/95714-004-FEADEDA8.jpg)
(http://www.thickets.net/toren/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/1928-great-depression.jpg)
Looks like toast for dinner again tonight. :uhoh
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While it was the biggest point loss ever, it was not even in the top 10 of percentage loss. So which is worse? Percentage or points? Cause 1987 was 22.61% (three times worse than today) and I don't remember the fallout from that being the end of the world. It flips up and down so many hundreds of points every day a butterfly sneezes, I can't even tell how far it's down in the past two weeks.
http://money.cnn.com/2008/09/29/markets/markets_newyork/index.htm?cnn=yes
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While it was the biggest point loss ever, it was not even in the top 10 of percentage loss. So which is worse? Percentage or points? Cause 1987 was 22.61% (three times worse than today) and I don't remember the fallout from that being the end of the world. It flips up and down so many hundreds of points every day a butterfly sneezes, I can't even tell how far it's down in the past two weeks.
http://money.cnn.com/2008/09/29/markets/markets_newyork/index.htm?cnn=yes
I think we'll see the biggest one week loss by the end of this week as panic sets in.
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Not sure, but I think on Thursday Oct. 2nd is when the emergency order halting short-selling stocks expires. That order covered 799 financial stocks and then expanded into several other stocks like GE, ect... My guess is we'll see another loss on Friday if they don't extend the order. Could be a roller coaster week. Would've hated to see today if people we're allowed to short / naked short sale stocks.
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let it all break. maybe it'll help us get back to those things our grandparents were all about.
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let it all break. maybe it'll help us get back to those things our grandparents were all about.
Like outhouses?
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let it all break. maybe it'll help us get back to those things our grandparents were all about.
:aok
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let it all break. maybe it'll help us get back to those things our grandparents were all about.
My grandma often said - the depression sucked, - I believe her
No thanks.
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My grandma often said - the depression sucked, - I believe her
No thanks.
The unfortunate thing is, it may be what is required to teach the idiots a lesson. It appears extremely harsh consequences are the only thing that will cure stupidity and arrogance.
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While it was the biggest point loss ever, it was not even in the top 10 of percentage loss. So which is worse? Percentage or points?
"Biggest point loss ever." quit rainin' on our parade... we set a record, baby! USA! USA! USA! :rock
(obviously j/k, I'm just feelin frustrated...)
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The unfortunate thing is, it may be what is required to teach the idiots a lesson. It appears extremely harsh consequences are the only thing that will cure stupidity and arrogance.
Too bad the people that screwed up are the ones with all the money in the bank. They'll just move offshore and run back and forth via their new Gulfstream G650.
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Our grand parents were all about getting OUT of a depression. I haven't heard of anyone who enjoyed that time. I already did what they did, I worked, saved a little and was able to retire. Going back to work isn't something I am physically up to but it may be the case that I'll have to try, if there is work to be had. This isn't a case of watching some big wigs taking a beating, they already have their savings locked up. This is about watching the economy, jobs, taxes and everything else spiral down out of control. We are all under the bucket that's tipping over and we will all get splashed. Problem is, many won't have any way to get cleaned up again because it's more fun to cheer the tipping of the bucket instead of stopping it.
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Just another case of our masters showing us where we belong. How dare we oppose a bail-out? They'll show us.
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Our grand parents were all about getting OUT of a depression. I haven't heard of anyone who enjoyed that time. I already did what they did, I worked, saved a little and was able to retire. Going back to work isn't something I am physically up to but it may be the case that I'll have to try, if there is work to be had. This isn't a case of watching some big wigs taking a beating, they already have their savings locked up. This is about watching the economy, jobs, taxes and everything else spiral down out of control. We are all under the bucket that's tipping over and we will all get splashed. Problem is, many won't have any way to get cleaned up again because it's more fun to cheer the tipping of the bucket instead of stopping it.
It's not that I'm cheering the scum taking their beating, it's that I refuse to just open the collective wallet and say "take what you want", and not solve the problems that got us here in the first place. We're already in debt in a massive way, we cannot borrow our way out, and that is what they intend.
I have no desire to see you forced to come out of retirement. The thing is, if they just voted to pony up the $700 billion, and didn't do something about what got us here, I'm convinced your prospects would be even worse.
Yes, a short term credit crisis will hurt the economy and be very painful. But allowing THIS Congress to pass the "bail out", and then recess, removes all the incentive for the NEXT Congress to solve the problem. The crisis, AND the election, will have passed. The public will be calm, due to their extremely short attention span and memory, and the NEXT Congress will just let it slide, doing little, if anything. Then the next crisis will come sooner, and be worse. And none of the $700 billion will have been paid back. It'll just be gone, another huge debt left for someone else to pay.
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We are still kind of spoiled in our standard of living.
The Dow down in the 5,000's and PIMCO breaking the buck will get some attention.
shamus
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the depression of the 30's did not hurt the rich, it just slowed up their accumulation of wealth.
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It fell because its inflated. The stock market has been like a fat spoiled child. Every time it began to fall, it was artificially propped up by cutting interest rates. Now the fat child wants $700 Billion dollars and is having a hissy fit because it didn't get it today. Its a sickly, bloated little imp. Its time to put it on a diet so it can get healthy.
Say no to hysterical bailouts.
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Those of you living paycheck to paycheck....start buying large bags of non-perishable foods now at Costco or Sam's so you can still eat.
Or, people can grow their own food, there's a concept. Never see apple, pear or peach trees anymore. Everyone cuts them down cause the birds eat them and toejam on the bmw
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Or, people can grow their own food, there's a concept. Never see apple, pear or peach trees anymore. Everyone cuts them down cause the birds eat them and poop on the bmw
That, and all of the new McMansion Tract houses don't have hardly any land left on their lots' that's not under the house. Like many people today have much of a green thumb anyway...
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Maybe it will encourage us to enforce our immigration policy so the jobs that are available go to Americans. Hopefully the government will be forced to realize that the confiscatory tax rates must go for people to invest in American businesses and manufacturing.
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Yea, like thats America's problem - too many skinny Americans :rolleyes:
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the depression of the 30's did not hurt the rich, it just slowed up their accumulation of wealth.
My Great-Grandfather was actually nearly broke before the depression and became quite wealthy during the depression.
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It fell because its inflated. The stock market has been like a fat spoiled child. Every time it began to fall, it was artificially propped up by cutting interest rates. Now the fat child wants $700 Billion dollars and is having a hissy fit because it didn't get it today. Its a sickly, bloated little imp. Its time to put it on a diet so it can get healthy.
Say no to hysterical bailouts.
QFT
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It fell because its inflated. The stock market has been like a fat spoiled child. Every time it began to fall, it was artificially propped up by cutting interest rates. Now the fat child wants $700 Billion dollars and is having a hissy fit because it didn't get it today. Its a sickly, bloated little imp. Its time to put it on a diet so it can get healthy.
Say no to hysterical bailouts.
Absolute truth!
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Found this a good read
http://blogs.moneycentral.msn.com/topstocks/?fpn=markets%20to%20congress%20700%20billion%20isn%20t%20enough
he posts this article he did a year ago
http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/SuperModels/AreWeHeadedForAnEpicBearMarket.aspx
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My Great-Grandfather was actually nearly broke before the depression and became quite wealthy during the depression.
How How?? Enquiring minds want to know?
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Just wondering.
What would happen if someone bought stock in a bank like say Wachovia right now. And held it.
And if Wachovia got sold.Say to. as a hypothetical, say a company named "Wegotbucks International" what would happen to that Wachovia stock?
Would it just be passed onto the new owners.
I guess what Im asking. Is what about a company that doesnt go out of business but gets purchased by another company.
What happens the stock someone might have in that original company?
If it just gets passed onto the new company
Then isnt now one of the best times to buy stock?
Provided of course you can guess which companies arent going to go under?
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Just wondering.
What would happen if someone bought stock in a bank like say Wachovia right now. And held it.
And if Wachovia got sold.Say to. as a hypothetical, say a company named "Wegotbucks International" what would happen to that Wachovia stock?
Would it just be passed onto the new owners.
I guess what Im asking. Is what about a company that doesnt go out of business but gets purchased by another company.
What happens the stock someone might have in that original company?
If it just gets passed onto the new company
Then isnt now one of the best times to buy stock?
Provided of course you can guess which companies arent going to go under?
Thia is how the market is supposed to work. How it used to work. You gamble with a company that shows potential. If enough people see that same potential as you and invest in that company like you, then the company gains investmant leverage that allows it to pull ahead of its competitors.
What we have seen in the recent past is people getting rewarded for making poor investment decisions.
We should consider this the "Ulmighty Cleanse."
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Everybody knows the DJ average and how much it fell today.
How many people know the Price/Earnings ratio of the Dow today as compared to September 2000?
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it all depends on the deal, google is your friend.
Citigroup's strategic acquisition of Wachovia will make Citi the largest U.S. bank by total deposits. But what will it do for Wachovia customers and shareholders?
Wachovia plans to sell its retail bank, corporate and investment bank, and wealth management businesses to Citigroup. The transition for customers should be seamless, the company said in a press release: "Customers of both companies should continue banking as usual and feel confident that their deposits are secure." The FDIC also assured continuity of service. It's unclear whether Wachovia will operate under its own name or the Citigroup name, the Atlanta Journal Constitution points out.
Shareholders of Wachovia's stock won't be wiped out in this deal, unlike shareholders caught up in the Washington Mutual buyout. Wachovia will remain a public company with two main businesses: the AG Edwards brokerage and Evergreen Asset Management (which includes Evergreen mutual funds). The company will remain headquartered in Charlotte, N.C.
Wachovia shareholders aren't in a good spot, however. The company's stock (symbol WB), which closed at $10 on Friday, was halted on the New York Stock Exchange this morning after it plunged more than 90 percent in premarket trading.
The deal is expected to close before the end of the year, pending approval by shareholders and regulators.
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it's barely lower than it was on the 18th, all that happened was Washington did the unexpected. Wall St. had placed their bets that a bailout would happen, it didn't so the market corrected... I might see reason to panic due to other reasons, but this drop isn't one of 'em...
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I was using Wachovia as an example because thats who I have my business account with.
I personally dont own any stock.
Bout the closest I come to owning stock in anything is a Vanguard account.
I also used them as an example because I get this gut feeling we havent seen the last of Wachovia.
Which led me to the question in general.
I just cant help but get the sense that among all the gloom. There is a real opportunity to be had here somewhere.
wherever there is disaster. There is also an opportunity to take advantage.
The question is. Where?
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I started digging my bunker... :noid
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How How?? Enquiring minds want to know?
He was a farmer and had land, livestock and seed... He maximized what he had and swapped some of that livestock and food for more land which he planted... and so on, and so on, etc...
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i have 12 acres zoned agricultural, i may have to become a farmer. Crops, pigs, chickens.
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i planted a small garden (1/2 to 3/4 acre) and thinking about chickens and turkeys...
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I was using Wachovia as an example because thats who I have my business account with.
I personally dont own any stock.
Bout the closest I come to owning stock in anything is a Vanguard account.
I also used them as an example because I get this gut feeling we havent seen the last of Wachovia.
Which led me to the question in general.
I just cant help but get the sense that among all the gloom. There is a real opportunity to be had here somewhere.
wherever there is disaster. There is also an opportunity to take advantage.
The question is. Where?
you're right, when the DJIA gets down below 8000 BUY!
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(http://www.econmacro.com/images/urdep.png)
Hmmm, if this ends up like anything like the Great Depression...
We'll need a really good war to get us on the road to recovery!
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I suggest China to start.
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I think now that the attempt to railroad a Bullshirt Bailout for the Richie Rich guys has failed, cooler heads will prevail and a deal that actually might help resolve our current problem.
As Kansas Congresswoman Boyda wrote:
I voted against the bailout. The vote failed 228 no to 205 yes. I know we face turmoil in the markets, and we need to do something to stabilize them. I spoke to many economists this past week. And every time I asked the question, "Do you think this will work?" they look away. They actually break eye contact with me and come back and say they're not sure. I'm not asking for a guarantee, only "Do you think it will work?" And not one would say they think that this will work. What every economist agrees on is there are several other options that have a higher probability of success at less risk to the taxpayer.
This bill tried to solve our economic problems from the top down, instead of the middle up. Four hundred economists, including three Nobel laureates suggested we slow down and get this right. It was widely agreed there are other and better alternatives for dealing with this situation.
Don't slash your wrists just yet simplyl because the brazen attempt to pick your pocket in broad daylight failed. There are serious people working on a serious and much more fair solution to this problem.
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I suggest China to start.
Not a chance. Who will provide us with cheap, disposable electronics and other assorted junk?
If you think this is an economic crisis, wait until the shelves at Wal-Mart are empty. Panic on the streets!
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i planted a small garden (1/2 to 3/4 acre) and thinking about chickens and turkeys...
"victory gardens" were a big deal during the world wars... No reason why people can't grow a little garden to supplement their diet, although buying fertilizer might get you arrested as a terrorist. I read a story today about how a guy got arrested because he bought a bag of fertilizer and a wristwatch during the same shopping trip. I guess the thousands of casio watch-bombs make purchasing cheap wristwatches and miracle-gro a surefire terrorist profile :confused:
Back on topic though, it's probably not a bad time to look into gardening. You can quadruple yields per square foot (or better) by using a greenhouse or hydroponics, but that takes a bit more effort than just sticking seeds into potting soil. Someone willing to put an hour a day and a couple of hours per weekend into their garden/greenhouse could pretty much eliminate the need to buy fresh vegetables year-round. Scale it up a bit (get the spouse or kids involved) and you might even have enough to sell/trade to neighbors. It's tough to plant enough grain/corn to feed livestock, but there might be a local feed supplier or larger-scale chicken farmer who would be willing to trade you some chicken feed or laying mash for some fresh vegetables.
Chickens are smelly and noisy, but they aren't very difficult to care for. And fresh eggs do taste a lot better. The only nasty part is if you want to actually eat the chickens, killing and removing feathers/guts can be messy. Plus sometimes the neighbors get upset if they're the queasy sort. My brother raised rabbits for food because they're about as easy to care for as chickens and are easier to clean and prepare for eating, but he moved to a more populated area and decided the occasional "evening of the screaming rabbits" wasn't going to work. So he offed them all in a massive killing spree and they had very tasty rabbit stew for a few days before they moved.
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LOL too funny... If he had bought say 500lbs and a mechanical clock... ok, maybe...
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I just started the garden this year because the price of food went so high thanks to gas prices and corn based ethanol popularity... see what i have been saying? when the government tries to tweak with free enterprise, it ALWAYS screws us up!
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I suggest China to start.
I doubt they would lend us the money to do that
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LOL Good point... but we do have this old stockpile of stuff laying around..... hmmm
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How How?? Enquiring minds want to know?
My wifes grandfather started selling used Model T's out of his backyard, learned body and fender work, walked around town and offered his services taking the dents out of cars, & started one of the first Ford Dealerships during the depression.
Now that took stones.
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It's times like this I am thankful for how I choose to lead my life, and raise my sons.
-I own my home. A used three-bedroom mobile home that cost all of $5000. Very humble.
-All of the vehicles my wife and I own, and we do indeed own them. An '86 Toyota pickup, a '95 Buick LeSabre, a '79 Trans Am, an '81 Ramcharger, and an '87 Dakota.
-We live on 10 acres out of town. The land has been in our family since the mid 1940's. My dad currently owns it, and it will eventually come down to my brother and myself. Therefore, food can be raised, money can be earned, enabling us to survive tough times.
-We have NO credit cards. If we do not have the cash, we don't buy it.
-For now, while I am employed, I work only six miles down the highway, so the high price of gas does not impact us too severely. (Guess which two vehicles I prefer to commute with regularly.)
-The only bills I pay are 1)Power, 2)Landline/Internet, 3)Cell phones, 4)Auto Insurance, and 5) Half of the property tax for the farm. My dad takes up the other half.
I just prefer to keep our finances as simple as we can make them, especially during times like this.
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I doubt they would lend us the money to do that
As a matter of fact, I saw somewhere that China instructed all of it's banks not to lend any more lines of credit to Wall Street until they heard otherwise.http://english.people.com.cn/90001/90776/90884/6506513.html (http://english.people.com.cn/90001/90776/90884/6506513.html)
and here's this as well:http://uk.biz.yahoo.com/080929/244/i7nnx.html (http://uk.biz.yahoo.com/080929/244/i7nnx.html)
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It's times like this I am thankful for how I choose to lead my life, and raise my sons.
-I own my home. A used three-bedroom mobile home that cost all of $5000. Very humble.
-All of the vehicles my wife and I own, and we do indeed own them. An '86 Toyota pickup, a '95 Buick LeSabre, a '79 Trans Am, an '81 Ramcharger, and an '87 Dakota.
-We live on 10 acres out of town. The land has been in our family since the mid 1940's. My dad currently owns it, and it will eventually come down to my brother and myself. Therefore, food can be raised, money can be earned, enabling us to survive tough times.
-We have NO credit cards. If we do not have the cash, we don't buy it.
-For now, while I am employed, I work only six miles down the highway, so the high price of gas does not impact us too severely. (Guess which two vehicles I prefer to commute with regularly.)
-The only bills I pay are 1)Power, 2)Landline/Internet, 3)Cell phones, 4)Auto Insurance, and 5) Half of the property tax for the farm. My dad takes up the other half.
I just prefer to keep our finances as simple as we can make them, especially during times like this.
Who would have thought thndregg, you are in an enviable position to many people :)
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The depression was caused by many situations. the rich getting richer, we where out producing more then what was demand, so on and so on. History will repeat itself. It is inevitable. America is at a point that F&^( up. CEOs make more than what they are worth. Sending jobs to third world country for cheap labor. Unions forced companies to paid more to there employee, health insurance, ect. I hate to say it, but will are one the way to a collaps country where we may see another civil war.
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I will say this in defense of those CEOs... Many are very ethical and it astonishes me how people think it is horrible that an ivy-league educated CEO can make oh say 15 Million, but a basketball star can make 50 Million or an actor can make 10 Million on a movie and nobody really flinches...
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I will say this in defense of those CEOs... Many are very ethical and it astonishes me how people think it is horrible that an ivy-league educated CEO can make oh say 15 Million, but a basketball star can make 50 Million or an actor can make 10 Million on a movie and nobody really flinches...
There are more CEOs that make over 100 million. Lets not forget the more 100 million dollars ofstocks, retirment, ect. How much money do you really need?
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off with their heads.
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I could say the same about athletes... Have you bought a ticket to a baseball game and a coke, hotdog and cap? Where is the outcry against that? I sure don't think we need to be bailing these guys out at all - not one dime - but how can you decide what a CEO is worth? Shouldn't that be up to the shareholders and board of directors of the corporation they run?
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I could say the same about athletes... Have you bought a ticket to a baseball game and a coke, hotdog and cap? Where is the outcry against that? I sure don't think we need to be bailing these guys out at all - not one dime - but how can you decide what a CEO is worth? Shouldn't that be up to the shareholders and board of directors of the corporation they run?
Well,lets say you work for a company that makes computers. The CEO decieds to move that factory to china, india, brazill to get cheap labor. CEO makes millions more and and you are out of a job. Yea, that justifys everything.
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A decision that big is never handled by one man... no matter how big, in fact it is often done by vote of the board of directors and/or common stockholder vote
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it's never too late to order more guillotines.
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it's never too late to order more guillotines.
:rofl
Yea,that will simulate the economy.
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The depression was caused by many situations. the rich getting richer, we where out producing more then what was demand, so on and so on. History will repeat itself. It is inevitable. America is at a point that F&^( up. CEOs make more than what they are worth. Sending jobs to third world country for cheap labor. Unions forced companies to paid more to there employee, health insurance, ect. I hate to say it, but will are one the way to a collaps country where we may see another civil war.
I would think that the main problem with CEO's isn't so much that they are paid more than they are worth, but how they are paid-many a time, with stock options' that lead up to them having a considerable stake in a company; That can influence their decision to go with, say, a merger, wherein they might personally profit, but the same merger might result in the loss of Hundreds, or thousands or tens of thousands of other jobs...Or get's the purchasing company one step closer to having an overwhelming share of the market, making it hard for competitors.
I don't really think that unions have that big an impact anymore, though. Maybe back in the '70's, when Union labor of all trades and crafts made up a total of roughly 22% of the U.S. workforce. Today, It's less than 8%, I believe. Too small a group to really have much impact, anymore.
And, if we didn't have a Civil War in the 1930's, during the great depression, I really doubt we'll have one today. You might have some riots, but no outright armed conflict.
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Ask just about any successful CEO what his job is and you'll get roughly the same answer, "Increase shareholder value".
Regardless if the results are good or bad for the economy, employees, or anyone else; it is just what the job requires, and that is what they are getting paid to do.
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I do agree that part of the pay a CEO gets should not be shares of stock - unless they are deferred until his retirement. I understand why companies gave stock to CEO's so that they will have a vested interest in doing good for the company. Unions screwed the pooch when they stood behind PATCO's illegal strike in the early 80's... then they got smacked by Reagan's mighty Banstick!
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trul. I am not sying CEOs is the reason of what is going on with the stock. It is just f^&* up how things are.
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And, if we didn't have a Civil War in the 1930's, during the great depression, I really doubt we'll have one today. You might have some riots, but no outright armed conflict.
Today, society is alot more aggressive than it was almost 100 years ago.
I strongly disagree, once it funnels down to the average person you will see the effect.
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Today, society is alot more aggressive than it was almost 100 years ago.
I strongly disagree, once it funnels down to the average person you will see the effect.
I believe you have a point... Before we had politicians that gained power by uniting the nation, now we have a bunch that try to divide us, by race, by income levels, even by geographic location... the politics of class envy, etc will cause a problem eventually.
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Stock market loss today - 1.3 trillion dollars
the average american investor in mutual funds, pension plans, ira's etc
lost more today theoretically, than the "bailout" monies in total
Weird science is afoot
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be ready for Tuesday market. After seeing the Europe and Asia market respond to the failure bailout, it effects them. Man, i better get my gun loaded and ready.
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i have 12 acres zoned agricultural, i may have to become a farmer. Crops, pigs, chickens.
Why didn't you start sooner? Does the land need to be cleared?
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We have needed a correction in the markets for a very long time... For too long, we created artificial bubbles in the economy and printed tons of money to prop it up and prevent the proper corrections from occurring for far too long. No matter what happens in the markets, we can always regroup... we always have.
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suck it up, america.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZjiE-hY9hU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZjiE-hY9hU)
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Today, society is alot more aggressive than it was almost 100 years ago.
I strongly disagree, once it funnels down to the average person you will see the effect.
More passive than anything, I would believe Del...In all honesty, you can look at something that was a big issue, like the Rodney King riots; The only people there that were motivated by the issue at hand (the trial of the policemen) were the ones' that burned down the guardshack in front of the courthouse parking lot. Everyone else was only after free VCR's and Air Jordan's...They weren't gonna stick their neck's out for anybody else than numero uno. And these were by and large the "nastier" segment of Angelino's (Mexicans and Blacks living below poverty level/welfare, Highest gang-related violence demographic in L.A.)
I'm sure you'll see a marked increase in petty theft/burglary, and i'm sure violent crime will be on the rise, But the American people have gotten too fat, complacent, and have grown too far away from the kind of stuff the founding fathers' of this nation were made, to take to the streets' en masse to overthrow their gov't.
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I do agree that part of the pay a CEO gets should not be shares of stock - unless they are deferred until his retirement. I understand why companies gave stock to CEO's so that they will have a vested interest in doing good for the company. Unions screwed the pooch when they stood behind PATCO's illegal strike in the early 80's... then they got smacked by Reagan's mighty Banstick!
Reagan sort of set them up for it, though.
That morning Terry eagerly awaited news from the FAA regarding the strike. Little did he know, President Reagan was about to reveal one of many surprises he had for the controllers. The first came shortly after the announcement of the strike. Terry and his wife were watching the news when it was announced that all controllers had 48 hours to return to work or be terminated. How could a President do this to a union that supported him during his campaign? In a letter dated October 20th, 1980 President Reagan addresses Robert Poli (PATCO President) stating:
I have been briefed by members of my staff as to the deplorable state of our nation’s air traffic control system. They have told me that too few people working unreasonable hours with obsolete equipment has placed the nation’s air travelers in unwarranted danger. In an area so clearly related to public safety the Carter administration has failed to act responsibly. You can rest assured that if I am elected President, I will take whatever steps are necessary to provide our air traffic controllers with the most modern equipment available and to adjust staff levels and work days so that they are commensurate with achieving a maximum degree of public safety. I pledge to you that my administration will work very closely with you to bring about a spirit of cooperation between the President and the air traffic controllers (Manning, 2000).
“He is criticizing President Carter for not acting responsibly in addressing our concerns and he wants to fire us all”
http://www.stuckmic.com/patco-news-issues/523-professional-air-traffic-controllers-organization-strike-similarities-today-pg1.html (http://www.stuckmic.com/patco-news-issues/523-professional-air-traffic-controllers-organization-strike-similarities-today-pg1.html)
What Reagan did, was lie to his supporters, essentially-He set them up for a fall.
But inasmuch as the situation we have today is concerned, There's just not enough Union jobs' to have that much of a total impact on the economy. A few CEO's can have one, based on the influence of their stock holdings, as I stated earlier; A corporate Chairman of the board influences many more lives and monies than any one assembly line worker can.
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I'm sure you'll see a marked increase in petty theft/burglary, and i'm sure violent crime will be on the rise, But the American people have gotten too fat, complacent, and have grown too far away from the kind of stuff the founding fathers' of this nation were made, to take to the streets' en masse to overthrow their gov't.
I'm not really worried about the average citizens... But one of these days our Republic will fall the same way Rome's did, and the worse things get, and the less faith people have in the current government, the more likely it'll happen.
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There are more CEOs that make over 100 million. Lets not forget the more 100 million dollars ofstocks, retirment, ect. How much money do you really need?
<<troll> Howmuch do you need, comrade?
From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs.
<troll>>>
It is no one's business how much anyone earns; with COEs it is between them and their shareholders. If you don't like the payscale at your company get a different job (or organize). If you don't like the payscale at another company, don't buy their products.
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My post was to incite prosthetic panic. I really don't think there is any comparison to 1929 or 1939 yet. These things take time before they actually hit your pocket book. An example is the Treasury bill, that's where you give the Government your money for, say, 90 days, and they return your money plus interest. Those T-Bills are only returning .29 of a percent currently. Just an example of a scary stat out there.
I think we'll head into a recession, but not a depression. It will take time before it hits everyone so you do have time to pay off your debt and get your numbers balanced.
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Today, society is alot more aggressive than it was almost 100 years ago.
I strongly disagree, once it funnels down to the average person you will see the effect.
More passive than anything. We have progressively become more and more meek over the last two-hundred years, to the point where a large minority of our population would actually give up their one sure-fire way to protect themselves. The founders started a revolution over a heck of a lot less than the crap we put up with today.
We have become domesticated.
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More passive than anything. We have progressively become more and more meek over the last two-hundred years, to the point where a large minority of our population would actually give up their one sure-fire way to protect themselves. The founders started a revolution over a heck of a lot less than the crap we put up with today.
We have become domesticated.
Think of the Metrosexuals living in urban jungles trying to start a revolution that didn't involve hair gel....
(http://theblacksentinel.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/sheeple.gif)
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market has been open for a hour, dow is up 264.
CEO's pay/benefits are not set by stockholders, they are set by the board of directors, who is on the board of directors you ask? CEO's of other companies are on the board of directors, it is a "i give you a big benefit package and you give me one" deal. Some people sit on the boards of many companies so the whole thing interconnected.
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well I just looked at my 401k :cry lost 1k :cry :cry :cry :cry :cry :cry :cry :cry overnight :uhoh
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<<troll> Howmuch do you need, comrade?
From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs.
<troll>>>
It is no one's business how much anyone earns; with COEs it is between them and their shareholders. If you don't like the payscale at your company get a different job (or organize). If you don't like the payscale at another company, don't buy their products.
If they wish to use MY taxdollars to bail these corporation's out, Sluggish...Then yes, I damn well want to know EXACTLY what's going on. Those multi-million dollar CEO's let this happen, then I want their head in exchange for MY money.
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well I just looked at my 401k :cry lost 1k :cry :cry :cry :cry :cry :cry :cry :cry overnight :uhoh
hopefully it will adjust overtime - the market -should readjust- hopefully the fund manager is grabbing stocks that are at an alltime low, that -should- rebound, and your loss could be a gain by the end of the month
Hopefully,
Last thursday - just reading this bbs, i came to the decision of selling off everything in my accounts, and had it put in the cash reserve fund, put it all back in this morning. This bbs is a great barometer of the narrow minded thinking permeating this country.
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The unfortunate thing is, it may be what is required to teach the idiots a lesson. It appears extremely harsh consequences are the only thing that will cure stupidity and arrogance.
Thinking this will teach "them" a lesson, is like letting a murder walk free and putting the victim's parents in jail. That's the problem with you guys that think voting no on the rescue plan will teach them a lesson. The ones whom caused this mess might lose their job but they are more than secure because they will have enough money one way or another. This is going to end up teaching the middle class a lesson, the less will be you just screwed up by saying no to the bail out.
700 billion dollar bail out that in reality might not have even been 700 billion, it might have been 300 to 500. Yet yesterday $1.2 trillion was lost on the stock market, that money is people's retirement funds 401k's ect..ect. Wait till your car & home insurance rates start going up, that will be just one area that this will affect you directly.
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If they wish to use MY taxdollars to bail these corporation's out, Sluggish...Then yes, I damn well want to know EXACTLY what's going on. Those multi-million dollar CEO's let this happen, then I want their head in exchange for MY money.
Which is why I'm against a bail-out. :)
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I don't want my tax money going towards it. I say follow the money path and then let heads roll. There's a lot of folks to blame in this - from both parties.
err I should clarify - I dont want my money going towards a bailout...now if they want to force me to "loan" them some money - then repay that that loan plus some...I guess I would have no choice then but to accept it. I wonder if they would consider auctioning off all the "bad-paper" to individuals. Let individuals invest based on what they can afford. Then if the "bad paper" turns good in the future - the people who bought it would make a profit.
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That's the problem with you guys that think voting no on the rescue plan will teach them a lesson.
Try not to be a chowderhead.
I haven't seen ANYONE here saying there should be no "rescue plan" whatsoever. <EDIT: Well, OK.. except Waffle and Sluggish :) >
What most of us in oppostion have been saying is that THIS particular "rescue plan" (to use the new "sell the sheep" politically correct term for the old "bailout") stunk. It was a crock of poop. It was an attempt to railroad through a big payoff to the Richie Rich guys before anyone had time to analyse the problem. It was a money grab.
Now, after our hard working <cough> Representatives come back from their brief holiday, they can settle down, examine the problem and put forth a solution that DOES indeed include proper oversight, includes a way to get a return of the money eventually and some precautions to try and prevent the next Wall Street excess.
There will be a bail... er, rescue plan in less than two weeks. Hell, they may come back and pass this original one with a few minor changes on Thursday feeling their token resistance is sufficient cover to allow the rape of the American taxpayer to go forward.
But again, I haven't seen anyone say there should be no bail.... er, rescue plan at all.
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The money lost doesn't really exist, it's a figment of the banks imagination. It has no foundation. The Federal Reserve Bank is an illegal entity.
P.S. The government encouraging people to live beyond their means was the main problem.
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The money lost doesn't really exist, it's a figment of the banks imagination. It has no foundation. The Federal Reserve Bank is an illegal entity.
Try to tell that to people whom just lost part of their retirement fund.. The money in the Stock Market is very real for the people whom have money invested there.
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Thinking this will teach "them" a lesson, is like letting a murder walk free and putting the victim's parents in jail. That's the problem with you guys that think voting no on the rescue plan will teach them a lesson. The ones whom caused this mess might lose their job but they are more than secure because they will have enough money one way or another. This is going to end up teaching the middle class a lesson, the less will be you just screwed up by saying no to the bail out.
700 billion dollar bail out that in reality might not have even been 700 billion, it might have been 300 to 500. Yet yesterday $1.2 trillion was lost on the stock market, that money is people's retirement funds 401k's ect..ect. Wait till your car & home insurance rates start going up, that will be just one area that this will affect you directly.
There's no way to get rid of dead weight except to let those companies fail. Failure is the check in the checks and balances of capitalism. If you socialize failure, you don't have capitalism, you have socialism. Thats why the tax payer needs to stay out of this. The tax payer isn't teaching anyone a lesson.
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Try to tell that to people whom just lost part of their retirement fund.. The money in the Stock Market is very real for the people whom have money invested there.
You can thank the Government forcing banks to lend money to minorities who couldn't afford the payments for that.
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You can thank the Government forcing banks to lend money to minorities who couldn't afford the payments for that.
amen bro :aok
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Try to tell that to people whom just lost part of their retirement fund.. The money in the Stock Market is very real for the people whom have money invested there.
So all of a sudden Walt Street is holding people pensions as hostages? How could you have private business if thats the case? Its a bitter pill, but a lot less bitter than socialism.
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There's no way to get rid of dead weight except to let those companies fail. Failure is the check in the checks and balances of capitalism. If you socialize failure, you don't have capitalism, you have socialism. Thats why the tax payer needs to stay out of this. The tax payer isn't teaching anyone a lesson.
In a nut shell. The backbone of a free market and a free society is the freedom to fail. Eliminate that possibility, and there is no free market or free society.
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In a nut shell. The backbone of a free market and a free society is the freedom to fail. Eliminate that possibility, and there is no free market or free society.
Unfortunately, there's another take on this, one that might explain the push for a 'bailout' with taxpayer money.
This might not just simply be about mortgages...but money that the gov't. itself uses to get by. Money for our infrastructure, Iraq, pensions' for people in elected office...If you take that into account, It kinda explains the push to bailout Wall Street...They are essentially covering their own asses.
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Thomas Jefferson to John Taylor, 1816
“I sincerely believe ... that banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies, and that the principle of spending money to be paid by posterity under the name of funding is but swindling futurity on a large scale.”
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Was watching BBC and Bloomburg Europe late last night.. the europeans were waiting on the Fed to bail THEM out! When that didn't happen and as their system started tanking, governments started pumping cash into their markets, grabbing banks that were circling the bowl.
Dollar is up, oil is down, crisis averted.
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well I just looked at my 401k :cry lost 1k :cry :cry :cry :cry :cry :cry :cry :cry overnight :uhoh
You don't lose anything if you've not cashed in.
This is an excellent time to up that percentage taken out of your check for any 401k plans.
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Try to tell that to people whom just lost part of their retirement fund.. The money in the Stock Market is very real for the people whom have money invested there.
It was down 8 %...not a ton. The market is up 3% now. Money, in the strictest sense of the word, is not being lost...or gained. People's perceptions of what something is worth is changing, but it always does.
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The money lost doesn't really exist, it's a figment of the banks imagination. It has no foundation. The Federal Reserve Bank is an illegal entity.
P.S. The government encouraging people to live beyond their means was the main problem.
The word "cribs" comes to mind.
--
(http://www.fotosearch.com/comp/bdx/bdx432/saving-money-under-the-mattress-~-bxp125821.jpg)
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Oh yes, the people with the oversized houses because they want to be like the Jone's
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Try to tell that to people whom just lost part of their retirement fund.. The money in the Stock Market is very real for the people whom have money invested there.
They only lost money if they cashed it out. The stock market is NOT the place for people who panic. If you didn't sell any stocks or mutual funds, or anything else, you didn't lose a dime. In fact, stocks are on sale now. I wish I had cash to buy some. But I will not borrow a dime to do it.
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Thinking this will teach "them" a lesson, is like letting a murder walk free and putting the victim's parents in jail. That's the problem with you guys that think voting no on the rescue plan will teach them a lesson. The ones whom caused this mess might lose their job but they are more than secure because they will have enough money one way or another. This is going to end up teaching the middle class a lesson, the less will be you just screwed up by saying no to the bail out.
700 billion dollar bail out that in reality might not have even been 700 billion, it might have been 300 to 500. Yet yesterday $1.2 trillion was lost on the stock market, that money is people's retirement funds 401k's ect..ect. Wait till your car & home insurance rates start going up, that will be just one area that this will affect you directly.
So, you favor the Karl Marx approach? You really are communist, aren't you?
In his Communist Manifesto, published in 1848, Karl Marx proposed 10 measures to be implemented after the proletariat takes power, with the aim of centralizing all instruments of production in the hands of the state. Proposal Number Five was to bring about the “centralization of credit in the banks of the state, by means of a national bank with state capital and an exclusive monopoly.”
[/quoet]
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It was down 8 %...not a ton. The market is up 3% now.
The DJIA is back to where it was like 2 weeks ago... seriously, this drop was nothing to get excited about...
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The DJIA is back to where it was like 2 weeks ago... seriously, this drop was nothing to get excited about...
No, it's down from 2 weeks' ago. But Today's rally helped bring it back up a little shy of half of yesterday's losses.
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just put all back into cash reserve fund
total now above last wednesdays close
please start sending emails to your congressmen and senate to not pass a bill again today
thank you
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just put all back into cash reserve fund
total now above last wednesdays close
please start sending emails to your congressmen and senate to not pass a bill again today
thank you
On this, we agree.
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This is what going on. Yesterday, the neurotic people took losses in the market because Katie Couric told them to. Today, those seasoned blasphemists in the market, those who realize the fundamentals of the economy are sound (WHAT????), scooped up the good values dropped by the neurotic people. There will be other sell off days and value buying. In the end the market will be leaner and healthier and have less neurotic people. Thats only if congress keeps its grubby little fingers out of it.
See, the market is not going to plummet because the fundamentals are strong (WHAT?????). When stocks drop below their true value ( not their current casino, P/E ignoring, inflated value) value hunters will scoop them up. Neurotic people consistently lose money in the market.
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You can thank the Government forcing banks to lend money to minorities who couldn't afford the payments for that.
I've went over this before, in countless other topics.. The loans that you are talking about are a very "small" group of mortgages and they didn't cause this issue. If you know anything about the lending industry you will know that the most profitable loans are the ones in which the person getting the loan is considered "high risk".
Go back and look at the history of these bills and you will learn that it's wasn't congress forcing anyone to making anyone issue loans to low income people. You will find out it was the banking industry that pushed congress to relax the regulation to allow them to lend to these people.
Do you understand it was the banking industry that actually wrote the bill you are talking about? It was lobbyist paid for by these very companies whom are in trouble now. Now one twisted their arms and made them do anything. They wanted to do it and had been lobbying Congress for years to get the regulations relaxed just so they could get govt insurance on high risk loans.
The largest group of people having mortgages defaulted on, are not low income families. The largest groups are middle class people who bought much more than they could afford. These are the people that could afford a $100 to $200k house but were given loans for 250k or more.
It wasn't low income people buying $200k to $500k houses it was the middle class. The simple fact is by the deregulation of the markets in which the lending companies pushed for, they were able to get people into mortgages they had no business being in. That most certainly wasn't Congress twisting any one's arms forcing them to loan. That was the lending industry pushing bad loans because it made them more profit as long as the ball kept bouncing.
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I've went over this before, in countless other topics.. The loans that you are talking about are a very "small" group of mortgages and they didn't cause this issue. If you know anything about the lending industry you will know that the most profitable loans are the ones in which the person getting the loan is considered "high risk".
Go back and look at the history of these bills and you will learn that it's wasn't congress forcing anyone to making anyone issue loans to low income people. You will find out it was the banking industry that pushed congress to relax the regulation to allow them to lend to these people.
Do you understand it was the banking industry that actually wrote the bill you are talking about? It was lobbyist paid for by these very companies whom are in trouble now. Now one twisted their arms and made them do anything. They wanted to do it and had been lobbying Congress for years to get the regulations relaxed just so they could get govt insurance on high risk loans.
The largest group of people having mortgages defaulted on, are not low income families. The largest groups are middle class people who bought much more than they could afford. These are the people that could afford a $100 to $200k house but were given loans for 250k or more.
It wasn't low income people buying $200k to $500k houses it was the middle class. The simple fact is by the deregulation of the markets in which the lending companies pushed for, they were able to get people into mortgages they had no business being in. That most certainly wasn't Congress twisting any one's arms forcing them to loan. That was the lending industry pushing bad loans because it made them more profit as long as the ball kept bouncing.
I suppose you never heard of the disaster known as "Community Re-Investment". I spent this weekend with a fellow racer who had been in the banking industry for 30 years (although I'm sure you know far more about banks and lending than he ever will) and he actually laid out how that little disaster worked. If you REFUSED to loan money in that area, regardless of how bad the risk was, the regulatory agency simply shut you down. So, yes, Congress used "Community Re-Investment" to FORCE the industry to write those bad loans and mortgages. I've known this guy for those same 30 years, he saw this coming, and he got laid off early this year, about 4 months before his brother, one of my best friends and customers, died. So, he's got no reason at all to lie, it won't help him at all. He's had a tough year, it tends to bring out honest reflection. He was however smart enough to see this coming, and is out of debt, his wife still has her teaching job. He's in a tough spot though, he's at the age where few want to hire him, and his chosen profession is not showing a lot of promise for him, either.
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I suppose you never heard of the disaster known as "Community Re-Investment". I spent this weekend with a fellow racer who had been in the banking industry for 30 years (although I'm sure you know far more about banks and lending than he ever will) and he actually laid out how that little disaster worked. If you REFUSED to loan money in that area, regardless of how bad the risk was, the regulatory agency simply shut you down. So, yes, Congress used "Community Re-Investment" to FORCE the industry to write those bad loans and mortgages. I've known this guy for those same 30 years, he saw this coming, and he got laid off early this year, about 4 months before his brother, one of my best friends and customers, died. So, he's got no reason at all to lie, it won't help him at all. He's had a tough year, it tends to bring out honest reflection. He was however smart enough to see this coming, and is out of debt, his wife still has her teaching job. He's in a tough spot though, he's at the age where few want to hire him, and his chosen profession is not showing a lot of promise for him, either.
What I was saying is that wasn't the cause of this mess. He said that it was Congress forcing lenders to loan to low income which was the cause of this problem. What I was saying was the lending companies have always wanted to lend to high risk people. They just wanted it to be federally insured which reduces their own risk. Sure there might have been some they didn't want to lend too, but that was the price they had to take to get the other stuff they wanted.
Forcing them to lend in a undesirable area wasn't what caused this mess. Sure some of the bad loans likely came from those area's but most of them came from the average middle class neighborhood. Not some low income high risk areas. Most of the defualted loans are in the $150k to $300k range and that is middle class working America.
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Most of the defualted loans are in the $150k to $300k range and that is middle class working America.
how do you know that?
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October will be a difficult month for tens of thousands of homeowners as a record number of adjustable rate mortgages reset for the first time.
Credit Suisse says borrowers with more than $50 billion worth of loans will see the low initial interest rates they've been enjoying replaced with a new higher rate -- and higher payments.
After that the investment bank says more than $30 billion worth of ARMs will reset each month until October 2008.
How serious is that? Just a couple of years ago Credit Suisse says only a few billion dollars worth of ARMs reset each month.
If you have one of those loans, click here for lots of ideas on how to cope with higher mortgage payments.
http://www.interest.com/content/trends/index.asp
"We've Only Just Begun" plays softly in the background
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Most of the defualted loans are in the $150k to $300k range and that is middle class working America.
In the Chicago market you are talking entry level housing at those price points. I wonder if you can get a $150k free standing house within 30 miles of the city.
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In the Chicago market you are talking entry level housing at those price points. I wonder if you can get a $150k free standing house within 30 miles of the city.
http://real-estate.nextag.com/q2_robbins-IL/homes-html
http://real-estate.nextag.com/q2_Harvey-IL/homes-html
http://real-estate.nextag.com/q2_Hometown-IL/homes-html
http://real-estate.nextag.com/q2_Steger-IL/homes-html
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I suppose you never heard of the disaster known as "Community Re-Investment". I spent this weekend with a fellow racer who had been in the banking industry for 30 years (although I'm sure you know far more about banks and lending than he ever will) and he actually laid out how that little disaster worked. If you REFUSED to loan money in that area, regardless of how bad the risk was, the regulatory agency simply shut you down. So, yes, Congress used "Community Re-Investment" to FORCE the industry to write those bad loans and mortgages. I've known this guy for those same 30 years, he saw this coming, and he got laid off early this year, about 4 months before his brother, one of my best friends and customers, died. So, he's got no reason at all to lie, it won't help him at all. He's had a tough year, it tends to bring out honest reflection. He was however smart enough to see this coming, and is out of debt, his wife still has her teaching job. He's in a tough spot though, he's at the age where few want to hire him, and his chosen profession is not showing a lot of promise for him, either.
Your friend is an idiot and a liar.
Simply no two ways about it.
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way outta line, Dos. -5 respect points.
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Your friend is an idiot and a liar.
Simply no two ways about it.
Listen Dunce Estrus, my friend knows more about the banking industry than you are likely to ever learn. He's been in the trenches since the seventies. I'll take his 30 YEARS experience over your disrespectful bloviating bravo sierra any day. The only thing there is no two ways about is your arrogance and ignorance. Not to mention your blatant disrespect and stupidity. You personal attack on a man who served his country in a time of war and then worked for three decades in the banking industry shows everyone what you REALLY are.
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way outta line, Dos. -5 respect points.
The POS doesn't have that many to lose. He's scum, and will get zero respect from me, ever.
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Your friend is an idiot and a liar.
Simply no two ways about it.
I suppose when they cannot take the TRUTH, that's the best they can do.
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If he meant that they would not be able to be a "Federal Home Loan Bank (FHLB)" - literally shut-off from that insured program, i can see how that may "shutdown" a bank in "distressed" areas. No business available would cause it to look for a merger, or close its doors.
Could be that was what was meant. The bank couldn't be shutdown for that reason by any agency.
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If he meant that they would not be able to be a "Federal Home Loan Bank (FHLB)" - literally shut-off from that insured program, i can see how that may "shutdown" a bank in "distressed" areas. No business available would cause it to look for a merger, or close its doors.
Could be that was what was meant. The bank couldn't be shutdown for that reason by any agency.
They could and would shut down a bank for that reason. A bank can be shut off from any and all programs, and be brought under investigation for any number of reasons, real or bogus. The feds do not necessarily do things above board, or "by the book". Anyone who thinks the feds won't strong arm just about anyone or any business if they have the desire is sadly mistaken.
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The two people I know who work for Wachovia, one being the executive type, pretty much say what Captain Virgil Hilts said.
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The two people I know who work for Wachovia, one being the executive type, pretty much say what Captain Virgil Hilts said.
and do they say it is a stock market problem - or a financial markets problem?
They have to love working there these days.
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I don't know squat about economics at this level. But, there are some simple truisms that send up a red flag here.
1st, the rush to solution. A rush so fast we won't know what's happened until years later.
2nd, The players involved all have a vested interest in the bailout, either for their political reputations or personal fortunes. The argument is made that we all rise or sink with the tide, but where stocks are concerned I imagine a balanced portfolio in a 401k will fall less far than those with a huge compensation package or heavy stock positions related to financial stocks and institutions.
3rd, the liquidity crisis and the financial crisis are related, but apparently not exclusively so. You could find a solution to liquidity while the markets work themselves out.
4th, this changes the economy and US capitalism in a fundamental way that is very disturbing. It also continues a pattern of central govt. control that is disturbing itself, part of the New World Order, share the world socialism ideal that I don't believe is a good thing. Let's build a new world globalized house of cards that's great, up until China goes to war over water rights or we need to fight a full WWIII in the middle east over nuclear terrorism and we no longer have a manufacturing base, etc.
5th, there is no consensus that this is the right solution. In fact, you can find as many opposing viewpoints as you can support. Such as:
The obvious alternative to a bailout is letting troubled financial institutions declare bankruptcy. Bankruptcy means that shareholders typically get wiped out and the creditors own the company.
Bankruptcy does not mean the company disappears; it is just owned by someone new (as has occurred with several airlines). Bankruptcy punishes those who took excessive risks while preserving those aspects of a businesses that remain profitable.
In contrast, a bailout transfers enormous wealth from taxpayers to those who knowingly engaged in risky subprime lending. Thus, the bailout encourages companies to take large, imprudent risks and count on getting bailed out by government. This "moral hazard" generates enormous distortions in an economy's allocation of its financial resources.
Thoughtful advocates of the bailout might concede this perspective, but they argue that a bailout is necessary to prevent economic collapse. According to this view, lenders are not making loans, even for worthy projects, because they cannot get capital. This view has a grain of truth; if the bailout does not occur, more bankruptcies are possible and credit conditions may worsen for a time.
Talk of Armageddon, however, is ridiculous scare-mongering. If financial institutions cannot make productive loans, a profit opportunity exists for someone else. This might not happen instantly, but it will happen...
Jeffrey A. Miron is senior lecturer in economics at Harvard University. A Libertarian, he was one of 166 academic economists who signed a letter to congressional leaders last week opposing the government bailout plan.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/09/29/miron.bailout/index.html?iref=mpstoryview
Again, I don't know squat. But I do know that if you follow the basics and common sense your are right more often than not. I knew the .com bubble was a house of cards very early on and anticipated the year it would collapse. I even saved, at the time, the copies of Wired magazine talking about the so-called "New Economy," etc. where fundamentals didn't matter anymore -- for a future laugh. The real Estate bubble was the same. I predicted a year ahead the last window of opportunity to sell my house easily and at a peak profit, if we wanted to go that route. I avoided doing stupid things in the RE market, that others didn't give a second thought about at the time. I figureded they would probably pay for their mistakes in time, not me.
We never really had the full correction, IMO, from the .com era and then the money moved into real estate and now futures, and we seem to be fiddling in small and large ways to keep the market from correcting. It's just a gut feeling, and it could very easily be wrong, but this doesn't really add up to the hype. I get the feeling those that have been selling short and riding the wave have far more to lose and far more influence over the process than the common US taxpayer who they want to pick up the bill. And then, eventually, the ignored fundamentals create a deeper crisis that fiddling can't correct and we're still screwed and a trillion dollars poorer than we needed to be.
Too bad we cant trust Washington or the media for better guidance on this.
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Well said. Deserves a reply as thought out as the post... but I find myself just plain exhausted by the pummeling by the media and the wailing by the left, spin on the right.
All I can go with is the kitchen table economics I learned from grandpa first, and then by experience later..
"Son, you can't borrow your way out of debt."
again.. good post. enjoyed that one. :aok
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and do they say it is a stock market problem - or a financial markets problem?
They have to love working there these days.
John, the executive one, isn't too sure he'll have a job much longer. I didn't get to ask about the details on market issues, I just remember him stating about a year ago how the Feds would intimidate the banks into loaning money to certain groups of people. He was concerned even back then that that, along with some other lending practices, would come back and bite them in the azz.
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Thomas Jefferson to John Taylor, 1816
For all of their imperfections (all humans have them though) We were mighty damned lucky to have so many brilliant, principled men founding this country! :salute