Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: Anaxogoras on October 09, 2008, 12:21:00 PM
-
Prien & Rodeike, Bf 109 F, G & K Series:
Armament of the K-4 consisted of an engine-mounted MK 108 cannon, which by now was installed on the production line, as well as two MG 131 machine-guns above the engine. There were aircraft, however, which were delivered with an MG 151/20 engine-mounted cannon.
:pray
If a handful of La-7s had 3x20mm cannon, the same principle should apply to the 109K-4 in regards to an MG 151/20.
-
I'll vote for it.
-
Sure! :)
-
Your book is wrong, methinks. K-4s were 30mm only. Others can probably back me up on this.
-
It's one of the most well respected books on the 109 in existence, from two reputable historians. Don't beg the question.
-
Really? Huh... Because other books, seemingly reputable, have republished the old fallacy of 2x 20mm MG151/20s in the cowling for ages.
Everything else out there says Mk108 only for K-4s. I think it DOES beg the question: Is this one book right when all the others say otherwise?
It's a fair question. I think the reference you listed is wrong, personally.
-
Really? Huh... Because other books, seemingly reputable, have republished the old fallacy of 2x 20mm MG151/20s in the cowling for ages.
No, the mistake they made was that the 109K-4 had 2x MG 151/15 in the cowling, but its repetition owed to their not doing real research with primary sources. What's his name, William Green(?), started that myth and it appeared in all sorts of craptastic airplane books for decades. IIRC, even Green realized his mistake relatively quickly, but too late to contain the damage.
This is a book that uses primary sources, e.g. RLM records, number blocks, unit records, and photographic evidence, to support its claims. They never cite other books about the 109.
-
I support this variant loadout if history supports it! :aok
-
Since it says 'delivered'... maybe they were delivered that way but never used with the MG151/20? This sounds almost too good to be true... :noid
BTW... Mk108 on the G6.
-
By all means, the 109K-4 ENY should be reduced if this change were implemented.
-
Since it says 'delivered'... maybe they were delivered that way but never used with the MG151/20? This sounds almost too good to be true... :noid
BTW... Mk108 on the G6.
The G-6 we have modeled is the early G-6 and it fills a role in a timeline. Giving it the 30mm negates this role and leaves all scenarios and events set in 1943 without a major plane that historically was there.
I like the fact they are giving specific aircraft, and not mis-matching like they used to do.
-
(http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t5/AK_Comrade/109G6U4R6.jpg)
Bf.109G6 U4 R6, Summer 1943. U4 is the designation for having a Mk108.
-
Yes, and in 1943 it was rare for a G-6. 1/3 of the total G-6 production had Mk108s, but when you break down the years almost all of them are in 1944. Somebody posted a breakdown of the years and numbers made once. Maybe in the 109 discussion thread before they were upgraded
-
Gava,
I found a source that stated the early K1 was mounted with 151/20's as there was a shortage of Mk108's.BTW it also(K1) had the 605A and not the 605D that the K4 came with.
Maybe your source made an error and should have stated"some K models came with 20's"
Will look some more into this. :aok
-
Prien & Rodeike, Bf 109 F, G & K Series:
:pray
If a handful of La-7s had 3x20mm cannon, the same principle should apply to the 109K-4 in regards to an MG 151/20.
I'll vote for that, but I want my 190D-13 with three 151/20's as well.
-
I found another source that stated the K4 was capable of holding the 151/20 gondies,but was seldom used as at the time high speed was needed to avoid the allied escorts.
So maybe an argument could be made for the addition of gondolas to the K4. :aok
-
Yes, my same source states that III./JG26 was very peeved when nearly all of their 109K-4s were delivered with underwing MG 151/20 gun pods.
-
The G-6 we have modeled is the early G-6 and it fills a role in a timeline. Giving it the 30mm negates this role and leaves all scenarios and events set in 1943 without a major plane that historically was there.
I like the fact they are giving specific aircraft, and not mis-matching like they used to do.
Easy fix. Add another 109G-6 as a new aircraft and give it a 30mm MK 108. That way scenario designers can restrict it to early 1943 without hassle.
-
That is a thought. Or whenever this ord-perking feature ever gets implemented they can do it that way (slip in a way to disable a gun instead of perking it, maybe?)
Then again, I don't see adding a nearly identical plane with a single gun's (and maybe a different canopy) as the only differences. Doesn't seem to be HTC's style.
-
CM's have made limited ordinance options before- can't take rockets on the TBM in early scenarios, P39D's only allowed to use 20mm cannon, etc. No big problem there.
-
It's one of the most well respected books on the 109 in existence, from two reputable historians. Don't beg the question.
Please post the title, authors, & ISBN of the book to which you refer please.
-
Please post the title, authors, & ISBN of the book to which you refer please.
First post says Messerschmitt Bf 109F, G and K series by Prien and Rodeike.
http://www.amazon.com/Messerschmitt-Bf-109-Illustrated-Study/dp/0887404243/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1223604373&sr=8-1 (http://www.amazon.com/Messerschmitt-Bf-109-Illustrated-Study/dp/0887404243/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1223604373&sr=8-1)
-
CM's have made limited ordinance options before- can't take rockets on the TBM in early scenarios, P39D's only allowed to use 20mm cannon, etc. No big problem there.
I don't think that capability is there for things like the AvA though.
-
I don't think that capability is there for things like the AvA though.
I don't think that really matters since Iv seen them sub the M4 with the firefly in a North Africa setup.
-
I read quite a few books on the 109k, and yes a handful were given a MG-151 in the nose
* R I ETC 501/IX b or Schloß 503belly bomb rack, fusing equipment for fitting a 250 or 500 kg bomb
* R III Schloß 503A-1 rack for one fuselage drop tank (300 l/79 US gallons).
* R IV two 2cm Mauser MG 151/20 underwing gunpods with 135 rpg.
* R VI BSK 16 gun-camera in the left wing between nose ribs 3 and 4.
Here are the kits for the 109k - The bomb belly rack which im suprised is not in game, only has a drop tank,
the rack was designed for both bomb and DT.
R IV Should be an option for the 109k4, any buff hunter would enjoy having the extra firepower going
against buffs.
I go back to my origional arguement, re-add the Me109 g-10, and problem is solved.
-
Adonai, what books also say some 109K-4s were delivered with an MG 151/20 hub cannon? Maybe we can make a list an present it to HTC. ;)
-
First post says Messerschmitt Bf 109F, G and K series by Prien and Rodeike.
http://www.amazon.com/Messerschmitt-Bf-109-Illustrated-Study/dp/0887404243/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1223604373&sr=8-1 (http://www.amazon.com/Messerschmitt-Bf-109-Illustrated-Study/dp/0887404243/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1223604373&sr=8-1)
Thank you.
Book titles and authors = sources.
-
* R IV two 2cm Mauser MG 151/20 underwing gunpods with 135 rpg.
[...]
R IV Should be an option for the 109k4, any buff hunter would enjoy having the extra firepower going
against buffs.
No, because these "R" packs may never have been used. Many K-4s were "delivered" with the gondolas, as has been discussed before. But all of them were removed at the depot level before seeing combat. So basically, no K-4s saw combat with the gondolas.