Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: uberslet on October 11, 2008, 10:50:35 AM
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On the spit 16. Im always getting killed by spit 16's, and i just did a run in a spit 16 and got to thinking "damn, if it doesnt out perform the F4u1C or the F4U4, why isnt it perked", and after some analysis i realized that the spit 16 hands down out climbs the f4u4; i also realized that yea, ok, the f4u4 is obviously faster, but the spit 16 out climbs the tempest hands down, except for altitudes less than about 7,000 feet, meaning it out climbs the F4u4, and F4u1C without wep, it hands down out climbs all 3 other planes with wep. it out accelerates thew F4u4 and F4U1C, only the Tempest out accelerates this. With no flaps it turns circles around everything, but with flaps the only thing that it doesnt out turn is the F4U1c and F4U4. The F4U1C out runs it, but its perked, kind of expectable. The spit 16 is more lethal than an F4U4, but not as lethal as the F4U1C and Tempest, due to the cannons; i got this information from http://gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php it may be slightly out dated, but it still proves that the spit 16 can perform with Perked birds. i think that it should have a slight perk, maybe say 5 perks at a perk mod of 1.00.
I compared the Spit 16 to the La-7 next. The la7 is faster, but the Spit 16 out climbs the La-7. the La-7 out accelerates the Spit 16, but again the spit 16 out turns it. la7 is clearly faster; they both have about the same lethality, but the spit 16 has a longer firing time. The la-7 in some respects clearly out performs the Spit 16, but in contrast the Spit 16 also out performs the la7. both of these planes could perform with perk rides.
Long story short, im stating my opinon that I feel the Spit 16 should have a small perk value, seens on how it can perform with the Tempest, F4U4 and F4U1C in some aspects. I fully understand that everyone will say "people who want the spit 16 perked are the ones that cant fly it", but look At sodas evaluation sheet; it comes right out and says "the spit 16 can make even an average pilot dangeous" in other words, any can fly it well, some with out even trying, and i could sure as hell fly it well if i wanted to fly it, but i feel dirty if i fly it :devil. anyway, just my thoughts on the spit 16, wondering what others thought of it, :salute
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It does have it's downsides.
It's relatively fragile (i.e. doesn't take well to hits), tends to like to shed wings when pushed too hard and it's somewhat unstable at the slowest speeds due to the clipped wings.
Where the XVI has an expoitable advantage over every other AC in the game, it also has a exploitable disadvantage over almost every other AC in the game.
The bigger question is, is it it unbalancing to the arenas? No. Not any more than the La-7, P-51D or N1K2. It's overall K/D ratio is nowhere near the perk rides and is, in fact, mediocre.
As to the F4U-4, I've been flying it a bit lately and it might just be the best plane in the arena. It is a truly astounding AC.
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i agree about the f4u4 being an out standing aircraft.....if flown right. however, you had mentioned that the spit doesnt unbalance the game play, to some degree it seems it does. you can put me against MOST any plane in my f4u1a, equal e-states, co alt, same pilot skil as me, and i would make easy work of a nikki, work some, but not a whole lot for an la7, and a spit 16 would hands down kick my azz, simply because you cant ever get a shot on it due to its manueverability, i feel it does unbalance game play some, hence why i mentioned a small perk of like 5 in my first paragraph. :salute
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I'm really on the fence. If it were a little faster, I would say definitely perk it, if it were a little slower I could say every LW aircraft that is completely inferior in dogfighting is faster. But looking at its speed on the deck, while the WEP lasts it is just about as fast as P-38Ls, P-47D-40s, etc.
BTW Bald, the k/d ratio that the whole population of dweebs is racking up, in a free plane typically used for desperate base defense no less, is never quite the whole story. What do you think the Tempest's K/D would be if it was all the time being flown by noobs out of CAP'ed, bases? :D
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Where the XVI has an expoitable advantage over every other AC in the game, it also has a exploitable disadvantage over almost every other AC in the game.
Name them. The only real disadvantage the XVI has is top speed, but it's strong enough in that category too. "Fragile" is not a disadvantage in the sense we normally speak of because it assumes you get a guns solution. I would wager that no other aircraft runs down and out maneuvers as many opposing aircraft as the XVI, not even the La-7.
That said, I would like to see the XIV unperked, and the XVI perked. Why? Because the XIV is tricky to fly, and I almost never see them. The C-hog and Tempest cost far more and are almost common. Economics tells us that the XIV isn't worth the price to most people.
Lastly, before anyone says it, I kill far more XVIs than they kill me, mostly because of the typical XVI pilot quality.
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can make even an average pilot dangerous
That's the definition of a perkable ride.
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personaly i think every air craft should have a perk value, the ones that are perked now, give higher ones and the ones that are not perked given a value,
and then i think that when you do a sortie, and get kills, it should take into account how many friendlies and or nme's are in a certian distance around you, and then give you perks accordingly, say if you are in a hourde you would get far less perks for a kill, then when you are the one out numberd.
it could double or triple(or higher) the perk value score for amount of nme cons wihin a certain distance.
i think this would go a long way to help with the hourding in the MAs
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Name them.
The A6M's, Early 109's, F4F/FM2, F4U's (in certain situations), Ki-61, Hurri's and others will out-turn the XVI.
The F4U-4, Dora, P-51D, Typh/Temp, Yak9-U and others are faster.
The F4U/190/P-47 zoom climb will leave a XVI in the dust.
I could go on and on. I fly every plane in the set but the XVI has always been my favorite.
I'm not sayin it's not a damn good plane. Just saying that almost every other plane has an advantage that they can exploit if the Spit pilot falls for it (and vice-versa).
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When I take a spit-16 up it feels uber. I can bnz it, tnb it just about anything. If I fly it safe and careful and only take shot that I know it's a kill shot, I usually can rack up 7-10 kills in a spit-16 b4 bingo ammo. Its ability to climb/turn and doing just about everything so well should make it a perkie!
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I like it and agree it should have a small perk value. Heavy on the dweeb factor, somewhat overmodeled I guess, but still a badass lil dogfighter.
Watch it in action, a short film from the other night :aok
http://www.mediafire.com/?2ww5nidmyi5
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Spixteens suck, I like to see them while in my JUG
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The F4U/190/P-47 zoom climb will leave a XVI in the dust.
Hmmm...so you are saying that if a Dora/Jug/non-perk Hog is percolating a long at say, 350, with a Spit16 1000 back, also going say, 350, and the Dora/Jug/Hog goes vertical, the Spit will stall out before it comes into firing range, the Dora/Jug/Hog will zoom well enough to leave the Spit stalling behind and still have control enough to flip over and get it's easy kill in a reasonable amount of time before the Spit16 recovers? Starting from a co-alt co-e position like this?
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Hmmm...so you are saying that if a Dora/Jug/non-perk Hog is percolating a long at say, 350, with a Spit16 1000 back, also going say, 350, and the Dora/Jug/Hog goes vertical, the Spit will stall out before it comes into firing range, the Dora/Jug/Hog will zoom well enough to leave the Spit stalling behind and still have control enough to flip over and get it's easy kill in a reasonable amount of time before the Spit16 recovers? Starting from a co-alt co-e position like this?
Yup, that was a huge exaggeration on bald's part. In fact, relying on zoom climb in a 190D-9, Jug or F4u against a SpitXVI with the same airspeed is an instant ticket to the tower.
The F4U-4, Dora, P-51D, Typh/Temp, Yak9-U and others are faster.
I like that you have the cheekiness to list two perk rides here. Let me also add the 262 and 163. :P
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If they perk the M4 and the temp the least they can do is perk that spit16
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My thought is that this has been brought up a bazillion times before, and for the bazillionth+1 time, there is no justification for perking it.
If you know your history, you will know that the C-Hog was originally unperked. During that time, we are told it had something close to 25% of all kills/deaths.
The Spixteen generally has about 8% or less -- along with the Pony, N1K and (until recently when we got all the maps that favor carrier fights) the LA-7. Here are the percentages of total kills/deaths in the late war arenas during the September tour just completed. These 10 rides make up 50% of kills if you strip out all the bombers and vehicles, i.e. looking strictly at fighters. Usage when compared to ALL rides is very much lower.
P-51D 8.46%
Spit XVI 7.44%
N1K2 7.11%
F6F-5 4.99%
SeaFire 4.53%
F4U-1D 4.42%
La-7 3.79%
A6M5b 3.46%
Typh IB 3.44%
P-38L 3.12%
So clearly, the "unbalancing" Spixteen is nothing of the sort. If you are going to claim it needs a perk, then you must perk the Pony as well, and might as well perk the N1K while you are at it.
At that point, the F6F, Seafire, LA-7, etc. will move up in usage. Will you then they will be perked, too?
Forget it. The only problem anyone has with the spixteen has nothing to do with "unbalancing" the arena. More likely you just don't like getting shot down.
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More likely you just don't like getting shot down.
Preemptively refuted in my first post in this thread.
Remember that when the F4U-1C was unperked, there were not as many aircraft in the game to choose from.
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P-51D 8.46%
Spit XVI 7.44%
N1K2 7.11%
F6F-5 4.99%
SeaFire 4.53%
F4U-1D 4.42%
La-7 3.79%
A6M5b 3.46%
Typh IB 3.44%
P-38L 3.12%
So clearly, the "unbalancing" Spixteen is nothing of the sort. If you are going to claim it needs a perk, then you must perk the Pony as well, and might as well perk the N1K while you are at it.
You conveniently ignore the fact that the popularity of the P-51D has everything to do with reputation and very damn little to do with how it actually stacks up to the other LW rides in attributes. Usage means crap, should mean crap, how it stacks up to other LW rides is the thing.
Forget it. The only problem anyone has with the spixteen has nothing to do with "unbalancing" the arena. More likely you just don't like getting shot down.
So you are basically saying here that any given day, average pilots vs. average pilots in the MA, a Spit16 is dramatically more likely to shoot someone down because of the attributes the plane itself possesses...but anyone who even entertains the notion that the thing should be perked is a whining idiot?
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Spit VIII is better.
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Both planes can maintain almost the same turn radius, the SpitVIII feels a little more stable. Has more range of course. But I'll say the roll-rate of the Spit16, especially at high speeds, is an advantage that in practical terms trumps any slight advantage the SpitVIII has in stability.
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One thing to remember is many of the versatile Jabos make many kills of GVs with ords. One thing that isn't done in the Spit-16.
I wonder what the real "air to air per sortie" stats would indicate? No doubt the high kill stats on the Niki and Spit-16 would look even more lopsided if strictly air to air kills were sorted out.
The Spit-16 is the most capable ATA fighter thats non-perked in my opinion. I find it very unbalancing at times...personaly.
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If HTC had called the Spit XVI the Spit LFIXe, would anyone complain about it?
That' all it is, a 1944-45 Spit IX with a clipped E wing and an American built Packard Merlin 266 instead of a British built Rolls Merlin 66
Same everything. Only the engine manufacturer is different. Switch out the engines and the IX becomes an XVI and XVI and IX. They are the same bird.
When I see a 16, I can't wait to fight it. Chances are they will stick around to play.
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Fixed. :aok
When I see a 16, I can't wait to fight it. Chances are they will be a new pilot who will badly under-estimate my P-38G and die.
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wondering what others thought of it, :salute
Not much along with any other top tier or perk ride. Though extremely satisfying to kill them when your in something significantly less in every regards.
<S>...-Gixer
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as much as i see people in favor of a small perk, or even just hate the spit 16 for what ever reason, i also see that many are in favor of it the way it is. however, the people i see likeing it the way it is, are the people who i kill, or kill me in it just about every time we meet; in contrast, the people that oppose it rarely, if ever, fly it, and clearly find it slightly unbalancing in some regards. As Anaxogoras pointed out to Eagle, the spit 16 leaves the F4U, 190D9, and jug in the dust in a CO-e CO-alt engagement. give the F4u, 190, or jug significant alt and E over a spit 16 and they may rope it. i have many times roped spit 16's in my F4U, however its only when i get a dive on them, never when i meet them co-e co-alt. That said, as someone else has said, unperk the 14 and perk the 16 a slight amount. Also, as someone else said, you unperk the Tempest and you will see it in the skies and being used as a dweeb ride just as much as the Spit 16.
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So perking it becomes the solution for not having to face it?
If that's the case, then unperk them all. If some guy wants Tempest dweeb it all night long, who am I to care. Let em have 262s. They'll get bored quick enough.
Look at the wishlist. It's generally filled with requests for the latest latewar uber bird.
Perk the 16 and it's everyone back in La7s.
Perk the La7 and then it's N1Ks. It will go on and on, until you perk everyone into P40Bs.
Most folks want every advantage they can get.
If they want a 16, let em have it. As long as they are having fun, so be it. And if they are that wrapped up in having the latest and greatest so they can claim to be the greatest cartoon pilot in the land, who am I to get in the way. They'll figure it out someday :)
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So perking it becomes the solution for not having to face it?
Perk the 16
Perk the La7
Will do boss!
and then it's N1Ks. It will go on and on, until you perk everyone into P40Bs.
Heh, now here we go...with the N1K, you are starting to get into a ride that turns better than most and hits harder than most. But it is also slower than most LW birds, can't take a very high speed dive, doesn't roll well, and is a fairly ordinary climber except very low. If X late-war bird can't match it in one area, it quite probably best it another. That is my idea of "balance" in the plane-set.
It is not about popularity or what people like to fly. By that false standard the P-51D is the very best non-perk bird and the Ki-84 is among the worst.
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So no one likes my idea of of perking ALL planes even GOON :(
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So no one likes my idea of of perking ALL planes even GOON :(
I have actually toyed with a similar idea, sort of a way to model attrition.
Give most planes a small perk price, 5 for like an La/Spit, 3 for Pony/K4/Dora/F4U/P-47N, 1 for a P-47D-40 or 109G14. These are just examples, the specific numbers would be up for debate. Of course I would give new players 1,000 perks to start with and every player would get a stipend of say 100-300 perks at the start of every tour.
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Don't worry guys, Pyro is right in line with the "perk everything" mentality.
Pyro on perked ord...
It just means that in addition to charging perk points for perk planes, we can also charge perk points for ordnance. How it will work is you will have to use your perk points to equip your plane. Every rocket, bomb, and round of ammunition will cost perk points. The more powerful something is, the more it will cost. .50 caliber rounds will be a lot cheaper than 20mm rounds, but you do carry a lot more of them. The cool thing is that if you score a hit with a round, you will not be charged for that round. So if you get really close and hit with all of your rounds, it won't cost you any extra perk points. .30 caliber rounds will always be free so even if you run out of perk points, you can still fly a Spit I or Hurricane I. Note that if you get shot down you will be charged for all the ordnance that was on the plane. Another cool thing about this is that if you like the heavy weaponry but aren't such a good shot, you will now be able to buy additional perk points with your credit card so you can always get that extra boost if you really want it.
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Don't worry guys, Pyro is right in line with the "perk everything" mentality.
Pyro on perked ord...
So that was 2 years ago, almost as bad as CT.
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I have actually toyed with a similar idea, sort of a way to model attrition.
Give most planes a small perk price, 5 for like an La/Spit, 3 for Pony/K4/Dora/F4U/P-47N, 1 for a P-47D-40 or 109G14. These are just examples, the specific numbers would be up for debate. Of course I would give new players 1,000 perks to start with and every player would get a stipend of say 100-300 perks at the start of every tour.
i think this is a great idea
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but anyone who even entertains the notion that the thing should be perked is a whining idiot?
Pretty much, yes. :P
It's usage does not dominate the rest of the plane set.
It's performance does not dominate the rest of the plane set.
It's kill ratio is just barely above 1 to 1 (1.05 to 1 in September, ranked 24th of fighters).
It has serious limitations when it comes to certain aspects of the game.
And finally -- SOMETHING has to be the "best" non-perked ride (however that's determined), so why not the Spixteen?
That said, as someone else has said, unperk the 14 and perk the 16 a slight amount.
This is hilarious. The Spit XIV outperforms the XVI in every way except turn radius -- but it should be unperked and the Spixteen perked? I think this goes to show it is a perception problem, not a problem with the plane.
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Just a suggestion: unleash the Dogs of War against the SpitXVI!
Unperk the F4U-1C and the F4U-4!
:devil
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Just remember, anything you fly, "Rock-Paper-Scissors".
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This is hilarious. The Spit XIV outperforms the XVI in every way except turn radius -- but it should be unperked and the Spixteen perked? I think this goes to show it is a perception problem, not a problem with the plane.
look at the performance of the 14, not nearly as good, and doesnt out perform the 16 in many, if any, ways until 20K+;are you willing to climb to 20K for a fight thats at 5K so you can say "look at me, im the 20k spit 14, i own you all" if i wanted to bring a spit a fight, id bring a spit 16 at the alt of the fight, maybe a little lower so that im not so uber, and would have to try and fly the plane; as Yenny said, when we flies a spit 16 it feels like hes in a uber ride;and i feel the same way. in an F4U4 or 262 I dont feel that way, i feel im in just another ride that will cost me if i lose it, not in a spit 16.
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Just a suggestion: unleash the Dogs of War against the SpitXVI!
Unperk the F4U-1C and the F4U-4!
:devil
coming from a proud vmf member :rock
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If this helps put into perspective of how much the spit 16 is used the Bishops, i dont go head hunting for spits, i take what i can get in my F4U, and i know im gonna have a rough time if i start TnB with a spit, look at these stats right quick:
Killed by Died In
Spitfire Mk XVI 9 1
Kills In Kills Of
Spitfire Mk XVI 0 13
That little bt of information was taken right from the Kill Stats in Expanded Format (I.E Only)
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look at the performance of the 14, not nearly as good, and doesnt out perform the 16 in many, if any, ways until 20K+;
http://gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php
Spit 14 is faster than the 16 at all altitudes.
Spit 14 outclimbs the 16 at all but a narrow band of altitudes (17K to 22K at Mil, 12K to 20K at WEP).
Spit 14 accelerates more quickly than the 16.
So, no, you don't have to be above 20K for it to show advantages over the XVI.
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http://gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php
Spit 14 is faster than the 16 at all altitudes.
Spit 14 outclimbs the 16 at all but a narrow band of altitudes (17K to 22K at Mil, 12K to 20K at WEP).
Spit 14 accelerates more quickly than the 16.
So, no, you don't have to be above 20K for it to show advantages over the XVI.
may i ask you a question. the spit 14 is perked for a reason, however, it gets very little fly time each tour. Perk the 16, for just 1 tour, and see how much the percentage use drops, itd still be like 4 or 5 % of sorties is my wager. why is it the spit 14 is never used for the most part, but the spit 16 is so good? tell me that, seem to be in the know on the Spitfire models.
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may i ask you a question. the spit 14 is perked for a reason, however, it gets very little fly time each tour. Perk the 16, for just 1 tour, and see how much the percentage use drops, itd still be like 4 or 5 % of sorties is my wager. why is it the spit 14 is never used for the most part, but the spit 16 is so good? tell me that, seem to be in the know on the Spitfire models.
Ok we are getting into the higher Mk number = later better Spit, which in this case is wrong.
LF IX 1943 - Merlin 66 (1,720hp) .303s
LF IXe 1944 - Merlin 66 (1,720hp) .50 cals
XVI - 1944 - Merlin 266 (US built Merlin 66 @ 1,720hp) .50 cals
Performance wise are all but indentical, so our XVI is basically a clipped 1943 LF IX with 50 cals.
Bit like the VIII came AFTER the IX.
XIV - 1944 - Griffon 65 (2,220hp)
reason the XIV doesn't get much use - not worth the perk price, for the low alt MA better off with a XVI or La7.
Would guess if we ever got an F.21 the XIV would be unperked.
introduction to service in order -
IX
VIII
LF IX
LF IXe
XIV
XVI (only called a XVI to show it had a US built Merlin, else is identical to LF IXe)
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My only real issue with the 16 is really that it is pretty good at... well... everything...
It's one of those aircraft that when it gets behind you, you really have no idea what to do. Should I dive? No, not unless we are way up in the sky, it can dive pretty well for a period of time, but then I'll be low on E and he'll just climb back up... waiting for me... Should I climb? No, it can out-climb me off WEP, and catch me when on it. Should I turn? No, it turns tighter and rolls faster. Should I chop my throttle and force overshoot? No, it slows down very fast, not to mention accelerates quickly as well. Plus with those cannons if I give them even a split second of a gun solution, a wing comes of. I could try to just out run it! Ah, wait, no... those Hispanos will get me before I even have a chance to get out of his speed range.
Ah screw it, I'm gonna bail. :rolleyes:
In all seriousness, it is truly a challenging aircraft to encounter. It always steams me a bit when I see a "vet" pilot in it since it seems so... challenge-less... I've even had moments where I'm cruising 3k-5k above a Spit 16 at 300mph watching him to see what his next move is, just to stare at amazement as he pulls straight up, comes co-alt with me, and accelerates to 300mph all in enough time to gain a gun solution on me with those vicious hispanos.
I just can't help but feel that a plane that really has no real disadvantage shouldn't be perked and that it isn't unbalancing in some way. However, I do feel that it's a good idea to have aircraft for beginners like this one. Either way, I really don't think just looking at kill/death ratios or usage percentages is going to give us an answer.
My $0.02. :salute
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Ok we are getting into the higher Mk number = later better Spit, which in this case is wrong.
LF IX 1943 - Merlin 66 (1,720hp) .303s
LF IXe 1944 - Merlin 66 (1,720hp) .50 cals
XVI - 1944 - Merlin 266 (US built Merlin 66 @ 1,720hp) .50 cals
Performance wise are all but indentical, so our XVI is basically a clipped 1943 LF IX with 50 cals.
Bit like the VIII came AFTER the IX.
XIV - 1944 - Griffon 65 (2,220hp)
reason the XIV doesn't get much use - not worth the perk price, for the low alt MA better off with a XVI or La7.
Would guess if we ever got an F.21 the XIV would be unperked.
introduction to service in order -
IX
VIII
LF IX
LF IXe
XIV
XVI (only called a XVI to show it had a US built Merlin, else is identical to LF IXe)
Why does the 16 climb so much better?
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If the 16 were perked, the 8 would take its place as a very capable beginner aircraft.
The 14 should be unperked because it is tricky to fly. It is not a point and shoot aircraft like the 16. If the 14 were unperked, and you gave people a month to try it out, at the end of the month you'd see more 16s than 14s.
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Will do boss!
Heh, now here we go...with the N1K, you are starting to get into a ride that turns better than most and hits harder than most. But it is also slower than most LW birds, can't take a very high speed dive, doesn't roll well, and is a fairly ordinary climber except very low. If X late-war bird can't match it in one area, it quite probably best it another. That is my idea of "balance" in the plane-set.
It is not about popularity or what people like to fly. By that false standard the P-51D is the very best non-perk bird and the Ki-84 is among the worst.
That is why I fly the Ki-61, it is superior to the rides so far mentioned in this thread. Nikis? :rofl
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And finally -- SOMETHING has to be the "best" non-perked ride (however that's determined), so why not the Spixteen?
Actually, there doesn't have to be a "best". Most of the time when you compare two aircraft, you can say A aircraft does this really well but B aircraft does this better. When you have a fighter that is ahead of most of the plane set in almost every quality important to a fighter...consider perking it.
K/D doesn't tell you much when a given ride is the go-to choice both for new pilots and for desperate base defense against long odds. I tell you what, as an experiment, lightly perk the Spixteen so that it is flown by experienced pilots a little more carefully, and watch k/d numbers go through the roof.
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Why does the 16 climb so much better?
XVI is such a good climber because it uses a Merlin designed for low altitudes (i.e. MA alts) rather the Merlins for the F IX or Griffon fitted to the F XIV.
Get a XVI up to the alts an F IX or F XIV was designed for then you'll see a difference.
There were 3 series of Merlins -
Ones designed for low alts eg Merlin 66 fitted to LF's
Ones designed for regular use eg Merlin 61 fitted to F's
Ones designed for high alts eg Merlin 70 fitted to HF's
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Spit VIII is better.
By a large margin !
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As Anaxogoras pointed out to Eagle, the spit 16 leaves the F4U, 190D9, and jug in the dust in a CO-e CO-alt engagement.
---------------> :huh <------------ Corsair will easily punk spit16 with equal skill pilots!!
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All Spitfire are just...just silly. And should be blown out of the sky first and foremost. :D If a pilot chooses to fly one his skill is perked already. No need to perk the plane. :D
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Yeah, I didn't say the Spit16 will always win co e vs the F4u. I said that if they are co e with the Spitfire behind the F4u, and the F4u executes a zoom climb (as bald says the F4u zooms so much better than the 16), the F4u pilot will find himself in the tower fast.
Btw, Spit16 vs F4u is hardly a clear result with equal pilots. The F4U-1 pilot is going to get his flaps out and fly at ridiculously low speeds, going vertical at 100mph to shoot at the overshooting Spit, who will repeatedly make firing passes and climb up for another. :rofl
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Maybe its time to consider perking the 5 eny fighters to balance the arenas.
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I just can't help but feel that a plane that really has no real disadvantage shouldn't be perked and that it isn't unbalancing in some way. However, I do feel that it's a good idea to have aircraft for beginners like this one. Either way, I really don't think just looking at kill/death ratios or usage percentages is going to give us an answer.
Sector, i agree with that hole post, however this last paragraph got me thinking. you mentioned how its good to have a plane like this for beginners, and i strongly agree, however there is no "good fix" for this because if you try to implement a perk value on a spit 16 for someone with a rank lower than say, 1000, people, no matter how good, would try to have a crappy rank just to fly it for free, unless of course they have like 3000 perks and can somehow out dive 262's in it. :salute sir.
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Maybe its time to consider perking the 5 eny fighters to balance the arenas.
then youd be perking the nikki, which uness flown well, is pretty much average with other fighters. an F4U will out turn it, it can dive with an F4U, and is just about as fast as an F4U. about the only difference that makes it lethal to an F4U is its 4 cannons, opposed to (except for the C-Hog) 6 .50 caliber MG's. Also, you start perking ALL ENY 5 fighters, and you would sure as hell see the pony as the new ENY 5 cuz itd be just about the easiest to fly if flown well (though many non-5 eny fighters are like that), also, youd have to most likely drop the ENY of other fighters so that people can have their 5 eny planes and still be happy. :salute
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may i ask you a question. the spit 14 is perked for a reason, however, it gets very little fly time each tour. Perk the 16, for just 1 tour, and see how much the percentage use drops, itd still be like 4 or 5 % of sorties is my wager. why is it the spit 14 is never used for the most part, but the spit 16 is so good? tell me that, seem to be in the know on the Spitfire models.
Someone already said that the 14 isn't worth the perk price. Same would be true of the 16 IMO.
I don't think I said that the 14 should be perked. I think what I said was that to argue the 16 should be perked and the 14 should not seems strange to me. The 14 has some advantages over the XVI that I believe make it the better overall aircraft -- but that isn't saying it should be perked. I'm assuming the "bright line" HTC is using is the 14's speed, and climb ability, which is quite substantial with WEP.
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spits a weeny plane, fly P-47D-40
-BigBOBCH
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Climbing from cruise speed is not a zoom climb. Climbing out of full dive speed is a zoom climb. The planes I mentioned do that much better than a Spit.
Who the h*ll ever heard of the "Cruise and Zoom" manouver?
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My only real issue with the 16 is really that it is pretty good at... well... everything...
It's one of those aircraft that when it gets behind you, you really have no idea what to do. Should I dive? No, not unless we are way up in the sky, it can dive pretty well for a period of time, but then I'll be low on E and he'll just climb back up... waiting for me... Should I climb? No, it can out-climb me off WEP, and catch me when on it. Should I turn? No, it turns tighter and rolls faster. Should I chop my throttle and force overshoot? No, it slows down very fast, not to mention accelerates quickly as well. Plus with those cannons if I give them even a split second of a gun solution, a wing comes of. I could try to just out run it! Ah, wait, no... those Hispanos will get me before I even have a chance to get out of his speed range.
Ah screw it, I'm gonna bail. :rolleyes:
In all seriousness, it is truly a challenging aircraft to encounter. It always steams me a bit when I see a "vet" pilot in it since it seems so... challenge-less... I've even had moments where I'm cruising 3k-5k above a Spit 16 at 300mph watching him to see what his next move is, just to stare at amazement as he pulls straight up, comes co-alt with me, and accelerates to 300mph all in enough time to gain a gun solution on me with those vicious hispanos.
I just can't help but feel that a plane that really has no real disadvantage shouldn't be perked and that it isn't unbalancing in some way. However, I do feel that it's a good idea to have aircraft for beginners like this one. Either way, I really don't think just looking at kill/death ratios or usage percentages is going to give us an answer.
My $0.02. :salute
made me laugh out loud :rofl
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Baldeagl, neither did we say it had to be from cruise speed.
Even at 400mph ias, trying to out zoomclimb a Spit16 is a losing proposition in a F4U, P-47 or P-38.
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Baldeagl, neither did we say it had to be from cruise speed.
Even at 400mph ias, trying to out zoomclimb a Spit16 is a losing proposition in a F4U, P-47 or P-38.
So turn into him, get on his six and shoot him :)
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Well this is why some of us fly P-38's so much. I personally love the Spitfire.. being a Canuck and all but hey.
With a 38, there's no torque and being able to out-maneuver planes under 80 mph is damn fun and no other plane can really do that.
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Climbing from cruise speed is not a zoom climb. Climbing out of full dive speed is a zoom climb. The planes I mentioned do that much better than a Spit.
Who the h*ll ever heard of the "Cruise and Zoom" manouver?
1. So a Dora/Jug/Hog can out-zoom/rope a Spit if it has more speed to begin with. Big deal, I thought we were discussing the advantages of different planes, not the advantage of having alt/E on a bandit.
2. The following film shows a Spit16 and a P-47N executing a high-speed dive to approximately 100 feet and over 400 mph. The speed is allowed to bleed down to 400 before an approximately 3g pull-up is executed until the plane is zooming directly vertical. Shift-X is used to hold the plane until it runs out of airspeed and stalls. Note that he Spit16 zooms almost as high as the Jug, even though I "cheat" in the jug's favor a little bit. (Watching the film, I leveled out for my run a little higher and pulled up before the speed had quite bled down to 400). The BEST that can be claimed IMHO is that the Jugs mass/drag ratio advantage brings it even with the Spit16s vertical performance at very high speed.
http://www.mediafire.com/?jdnywtkjyut (http://www.mediafire.com/?jdnywtkjyut)
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Baldeagl, neither did we say it had to be from cruise speed.
Really?
Hmmm...so you are saying that if a Dora/Jug/non-perk Hog is percolating a long at say, 350, with a Spit16 1000 back, also going say, 350, and the Dora/Jug/Hog goes vertical, the Spit will stall out before it comes into firing range, the Dora/Jug/Hog will zoom well enough to leave the Spit stalling behind and still have control enough to flip over and get it's easy kill in a reasonable amount of time before the Spit16 recovers? Starting from a co-alt co-e position like this?
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unperk the 14, or give it a larger DT
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An amusing thread. (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/rolleyes008.gif) (http://www.freesmileys.org)
<S>...-Gixer
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An amusing thread. (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/rolleyes008.gif) (http://www.freesmileys.org)
<S>...-Gixer
im sorry :aok i just wanted to know people views and here i am with ya Gixer, eatung my popcorn, and watching.
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Sector, i agree with that hole post, however this last paragraph got me thinking. you mentioned how its good to have a plane like this for beginners, and i strongly agree, however there is no "good fix" for this because if you try to implement a perk value on a spit 16 for someone with a rank lower than say, 1000, people, no matter how good, would try to have a crappy rank just to fly it for free, unless of course they have like 3000 perks and can somehow out dive 262's in it. :salute sir.
I was actually thinking about this exact thing the other day. I came to the conclusion that no one is going to up an aircraft and try to not get kills or get killed, so I have to assume the fighter rank will naturally pan out.
Sure would make the beginning of the tour interesting though since no one is ranked. You'd probably see a little spur of 16's, then it would go back to normal again after everyone got their rank... What to do, what to do... :rolleyes:
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What to do, what to do... :rolleyes:
you cant really do much, if anything :furious
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Bald: The point remains that you were trying to claim that the fact a fighter can dive on a Spit16 at high speed and then zoom up beyond reach as an advantage X airframes have over the Spit16, when in fact all you were pointing out was the advantage of starting with an advantage. :D
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then youd be perking the nikki, which uness flown well, is pretty much average with other fighters. an F4U will out turn it, it can dive with an F4U, and is just about as fast as an F4U. about the only difference that makes it lethal to an F4U is its 4 cannons, opposed to (except for the C-Hog) 6 .50 caliber MG's. Also, you start perking ALL ENY 5 fighters, and you would sure as hell see the pony as the new ENY 5 cuz itd be just about the easiest to fly if flown well (though many non-5 eny fighters are like that), also, youd have to most likely drop the ENY of other fighters so that people can have their 5 eny planes and still be happy. :salute
Well it was just a thought. Ill say this, I took a Spit-16 up against that Bish B-17 mob last night and for many long minutes survived in a sky red with Ponies even with an alt disadvantage. No I didn't survive it, eventually I got squeezed and HO'ed by one of the horde. But for a long, long time I was able to outdance an entire sky red with cons. And I'm only medium skilled, and still I can figure out the 16 is uber.
I dont fly it much, or the LA, and almost never the Niki, but I'm always flying into gangs of them. Its true not all are "good" in them. Most "good" sticks gravitate to other planes and only fly the 5 enys occasionally. And there aint much quality 1 on 1'ing in the MAs anyways. Its mostly gangbanging, getting banged, HO'ing on 1 merge, vulching/scoe hoe'ing, alt monkeying....ect Maybe lightly perking 5 eny aircraft would change that.
I know I didn't start learning how to fight until I got out of that LA-7 and into some higher eny fighters where I actually had to start using tactics to survive. Just a suggestion. :salute
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Really?
Cruise speed is a lot slower than 350mph ias.
In fact, I just tested the F4U-1D vs the Spit16 in zoom climbs offline. I dove both down to 100' asl, when they decelerated to 400mph ias, I engaged auto-climb on speed set to 100mph (both aircraft had WEP engaged, 50% fuel). Once the aircraft reached maximum pitch (near vertical), I engaged auto-climb on angle. The idea here is that since the autopilot is controlling the aircraft, its inputs will be exactly the same.
The Spit16 zoomed to 6,500ft.
The F4U-1D zoomed to 6,000ft.
So, even at speeds that can only be reached as the result of a dive, the Spit16 out zoom-climbs the F4U-1D.
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And there aint much quality 1 on 1'ing in the MAs anyways. Its mostly gangbanging, getting banged, HO'ing on 1 merge, vulching/scoe hoe'ing, alt monkeying....ect Maybe lightly perking 5 eny aircraft would change that.
It won't change MA behavior even a little bit! :rofl People will behave as they always have.
I don't believe the eny 5 N1K deserves to be perked and a I certainly don't think the eny 5 47N needs a perk price.
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I don't believe the eny 5 N1K deserves to be perked and a I certainly don't think the eny 5 47N needs a perk price.
Playing devil's advocate here for a second . . .
Of all the ENY 5 unperked planes that might "need" a perk, it would be the N1K first, based on K/D ratio. It was 1.25 in September, vs. 1.07 for the Pony (granted, its ENY is 8, though not entirely sure why), 1.05 for the Spixteen, 0.99 for the LA-7 and 0.8 for the 47N.
Again (broken record), I don't think ANY of those planes need a perk.
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Playing devil's advocate here for a second . . .
Of all the ENY 5 unperked planes that might "need" a perk, it would be the N1K first, based on K/D ratio. It was 1.25 in September, vs. 1.07 for the Pony (granted, its ENY is 8, though not entirely sure why), 1.05 for the Spixteen, 0.99 for the LA-7 and 0.8 for the 47N.
Again (broken record), I don't think ANY of those planes need a perk.
It has deadly firepower. If it gets you in its guns or you are dumb enough to HO it....
Also, it is the premier vulching plane.
But as compared to the Spit16, it is easier to stay out of its gun-sight in the first place. I mean, at 325 mph top deck speed, most LW planes can simply disengage from it if nothing else.
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Along the same lines...
P-47D-25 zoomed to 5,900ft.
P-38L zoomed to 6,250ft.
So the Spit16 outzooms the F4U-1D, P-47D-25, and P-38L.
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Pretty much, yes. :P
It's usage does not dominate the rest of the plane set.
It's performance does not dominate the rest of the plane set.
It's kill ratio is just barely above 1 to 1 (1.05 to 1 in September, ranked 24th of fighters).
It has serious limitations when it comes to certain aspects of the game.
And finally -- SOMETHING has to be the "best" non-perked ride (however that's determined), so why not the Spixteen?
This is hilarious. The Spit XIV outperforms the XVI in every way except turn radius -- but it should be unperked and the Spixteen perked? I think this goes to show it is a perception problem, not a problem with the plane.
I agree with this and Dan's posts, too bad it's lost on all the "perk plane XXX" crowd. I guess people will always seek the path of less resistance...
ack-ack
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why is it the spit 14 is never used for the most part, but the spit 16 is so good? tell me that, seem to be in the know on the Spitfire models.
The reason why most people tend to shy away from the XIV is that it's harder to fly than the other Spitfires and as such, fly it incorrectly trying to turn with anything that moves. That's a quick way to get yourself shot down in a XIV.
So far the "perk the plane XXX" crowd has yet to show any valid proof to back up their claims the XVI needs to be perked other than using the old and tired stand by of "too many are being flown!" argument.
ack-ack
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Even at 400mph ias, trying to out zoomclimb a Spit16 is a losing proposition in a F4U, P-47 or P-38.
No, it's not. We can put it to the test...you in a Mk XVI and me in a P-38J. Both start our dives at 15k until we hit 400mph IAS and pull into a vertical climb. You will be stalling out long before I do in the P-38J. The Spitfire Mk XVI is not better than the Lighting in the vertical.
ack-ack
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With a few exceptions, I fear that most changes to the ENY / Perk system that I see suggested would result in the opposite of the desired effect, or have no effect at all. In this case, perk the 16 and it becomes the next perked hanger queen like the 14. Unperk the 14 and it becomes a the next Spixteen. The game would survive the change but the uber ride pilots would just change to the next best on the list.
I've seen it suggested that perks should be reset each tour. That would just result in everyone using up all their perks at the end of the tour... in the last day or two of the month, if you don't have perks left, you may as well watch TV instead of log on.
What needs to be done is to convince the average Aces High II pilot to fly something other than the 10 and under ENY rides... to make them want to fly something other than the 10 and under rides. And to do it without changing the underlying ENY and Perk system which works pretty well right now.
And I came up with just such a way: http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,246499.0.html
Simple and I think it would be effective. A bunch of Spixteen and P-51 drivers poo-poo'd it, but I think they felt threatened a bit, because if implemented, a P40 driver landing two kills might be considered to have a "bigger e-peen" than them all of the sudden :lol .
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Boiler, i agree with that preposition now that i really thought about it, as i think i was opposed to it. as you mentioned in one of your responses, showing ho many perks one makes in a sortie, would put more of a focus on getting perks, instead of kills. However, if this idea was implemented, many pilots who are in no concern of little (or no perks), or even worried about running out of perks, really wouldnt care weather or not they make 2 perks for 10 kills in a spit 16 or la or nikki, but others, like me, who arnt so hot on perks, instead of going to the hangar and checking, could just reup an d get back into action. the text buffer could say this "HOST: SO&SO got X amount of perks for Y amount of kills in this ride of....." SO&SO being the player, X being the perks, and Y amount of kills, of.... being the squad name. this may sound easier than actually doing for HTC, but it could be a fix as you had been suggesting. Someone had said that some players would go to the team with lesser players so they could get more perks, and still fly their rides, how ever it would encourage others to not fight that team. anyway, my input sir. :salute
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No, it's not. We can put it to the test...you in a Mk XVI and me in a P-38J. Both start our dives at 15k until we hit 400mph IAS and pull into a vertical climb. You will be stalling out long before I do in the P-38J. The Spitfire Mk XVI is not better than the Lighting in the vertical.
ack-ack
http://www.mediafire.com/?mfmpy2mmx3d (http://www.mediafire.com/?mfmpy2mmx3d)
Used the same procedure as I used for the Spit XVI vs. P47N contest. Dive to past 400 to ~100 feet above the waves, wait until the speed bleeds to 400, pull up, use shift-x to hold the plane vertically until it stalls out. Despite the fact that the P-38 weighs twice as much as the Spit and has the advantage of torquelessness, they still regain substantially the same amount of altitude in the zoom.
The real head-scratcher was when I tested the P-47 zoom and Spit zoom-same procedure as above, only with a CLOSED throttle to take the Spit16's horsepower out of the equation-and still got almost identical zoom results.
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No, it's not. We can put it to the test...you in a Mk XVI and me in a P-38J. Both start our dives at 15k until we hit 400mph IAS and pull into a vertical climb. You will be stalling out long before I do in the P-38J. The Spitfire Mk XVI is not better than the Lighting in the vertical.
ack-ack
Did you read my post? I tested it offline and from 400mph ias the Spit16 outzooms the P-38L, and therefore I would think the same for the J. Shall I test that one too? Now, that's not to say it's not easier to control a P-38 through a vertical maneuver, but that's a different point.
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The reason why most people tend to shy away from the XIV is that it's harder to fly than the other Spitfires and as such, fly it incorrectly trying to turn with anything that moves. That's a quick way to get yourself shot down in a XIV.
I think we agree that the XIV does not deserve a perk price.
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The reason why most people tend to shy away from the XIV is that it's harder to fly than the other Spitfires and as such, fly it incorrectly trying to turn with anything that moves. That's a quick way to get yourself shot down in a XIV.
So far the "perk the plane XXX" crowd has yet to show any valid proof to back up their claims the XVI needs to be perked other than using the old and tired stand by of "too many are being flown!" argument.
ack-ack
I think for the most part, people want to see it perked because it can roll, climb, and accelerate very very well. I dont really care, a Spit 16 is just free perks in my eyes.
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So in the end, what are folks trying to achieve?
Is the goal to force newbies out of planes that give them success faster and easier? Seems like I'd rather live with that and bring new blood into the game then force them into birds that have a steeper learning curve to start. If they stick around long enough they'll get bored and look at other birds for a challenge.
I can't help but go back to 'who cares'. Unperk em all and let folks fly what they want. Either they'll begin to challenge themselves in time as they get comfortable 'flying' or they'll fade away.
And I'll ask it again as no one ever answere the first time. If HTC had named the Spit XVIe the Spit LFIXe, which is identical other then Rolls vs Packard built Merlins, who anyone be saying anything? I get worried that for many folks if the number is higher, it must be better when they see the planes listed.
Just keep in mind that the Spitfire LFIXe/XVIe was in reality designed for the airwar that's flown in AH. Low to medium alt. The clipped wing was for that purpose and roll rate. The Merling 266 was designed for best performance at the alts AH is flown.
It is, what it is, and it's just not that big a deal :)
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And I'll ask it again as no one ever answere the first time. If HTC had named the Spit XVIe the Spit LFIXe, which is identical other then Rolls vs Packard built Merlins, who anyone be saying anything? I get worried that for many folks if the number is higher, it must be better when they see the planes listed.
Give us more credit than that! :D Whether it's a IX or a XVI doesn't matter, we're looking at performance. I think if the 16 were perked the new players would have the 8, which is just a tad slower and only has a good roll rate. That said, if we're going to have a perk system in place, it's a close call for the 16. I admit that, but it would be a small perk cost, I think.
My only criterion for perking is this: if it turns an average pilot into a dangerous pilot. The XIV doesn't. Maybe the F4U-4 doesn't deserve a perk price, either. The only thing it does better than the regular Corsairs is run away. :P
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Well... if people want things perked that kill them the most.... then PERK THE P38! :rock :noid
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Give us more credit than that! :D Whether it's a IX or a XVI doesn't matter, we're looking at performance. I think if the 16 were perked the new players would have the 8, which is just a tad slower and only has a good roll rate. That said, if we're going to have a perk system in place, it's a close call for the 16. I admit that, but it would be a small perk cost, I think.
My only criterion for perking is this: if it turns an average pilot into a dangerous pilot. The XIV doesn't. Maybe the F4U-4 doesn't deserve a perk price, either. The only thing it does better than the regular Corsairs is run away. :P
So it really isn't the plane that should be perked, it's the pilot type?
We want to make sure that running, HO'ing, BnZ type pilots who spend their time trying to avoid the fight and land their kills, are in planes we can catch if we don't fly the latest and greatest?
I get it, when it comes to ENY. 50 guys in Spit 16s vs 1 guy in a Spit 16 isn't going to be much fun. But if the numbers are close to even, who cares. The good sticks for the most part aren't going to be in 16s, and if it gets the newer and more average sticks to stay and fight, let em all have 16s.
If I were really dying, I might care more about what the other guy flew, but in the end it's about getting people to have the confidence to enter the fight. The 16 is much more apt to get a guy to stick around then a Temp, C Hog, 262 etc. Those birds are a pain because they go fast, have big cannons and don't stick around and fight. The XIV flown the way it should be, is a bird much the same as those other go fast, shoot em and runaway types.
Worrying about the 16, is much ado about nothing. Just shoot em.
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So it really isn't the plane that should be perked, it's the pilot type?
No. ;)
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Maybe the F4U-4 doesn't deserve a perk price, either. The only thing it does better than the regular Corsairs is run away. :P
The F4U-4 turns a moderatly expierenced F4U pilot into a potentially deadly pilot. out climbs (zoom or cruise speed) the other F4U's. out turns the other F4U's, does just about everything better than, except for outgun the C-Hog.