Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: bigrich on October 16, 2008, 06:13:51 PM
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a P-47D-11 razorback is returning to base escorting a flight of B-17s with other 47's when a pack of 109&190's appear out of no where the P-47's don't know they're there one 190 starts to dive on a 47.then the battle begins.....15 P-47's vs 25 109's & 190's 109G-6 model and 190A-8 model both with pilots from the Russian front the 47 pilots are brand new recruits...tell me who has the advantage and describe the outcome :)
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A B-29 drop the nuke and kill every one. :O
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A B-29 drop the nuke and kill every one. :O
:noid you ruined it
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:noid you ruined it
Not the best at story telling.
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I don't think the 190A-8 would be a contemporary of the P-47D-11, would it?
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yes most squads that had the 47D-11 faced the A-8 on occasions and the 109s of course
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I don't think the 190A-8 would be a contemporary of the P-47D-11, would it?
Somewhere there's a list of service dates for aircraft we have in game but I can't find it.
I always thought that the D11 was a 1942-43 fighter that was being phased out by the end of 1943, around the time the 190A8 was being put into service IIRC, and that the D11 would be more a contemporary of the A4, A5, and A6. But I don't really know of sure.
Based on the situation you described the Luftwaffe pilots had a numbers advantage, altitude advantage, and experience advantage (I'm assuming 'from the Russian Front' is supposed to mean that the German Pilots are highly experienced), and are making a surprise attack so IMO the USAAF pilots would be probably destroyed with little losses for the Germans.
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So who going to tell the story? :uhoh
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yes but the 47's can soke up damage but not that much
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yes but the 47's can soke up damage but not that much
It would depend on the aircraft. In the situation you described the German aircraft would be part Reichsverteidigung (Reich Defense) unit and may partially or wholly consist of more heavily armed aircraft (like Sturm 190's with 30mm outboard cannons or 109G6 U4's or R6's with a Mk108 hub gun or gondolas respectively). No matter how the German aircraft were equipped they would probably make short work of the Jugs. They were not invincible and a single well placed burst would easily cripple the aircraft, especially if the German aircraft was heavily armed.
I've actually read a similar situation where II/JG11 (one of the more successful RVG Gruppen) consisting of 20 (+/- 2-3... a Gruppe would usually consist of 40+ aircraft but JG11 took very heavy casualties throughout the war) 109's jumped a group of 40-60 Mustangs (going off of memory I don't remember well) from the sun and destroyed many for not many losses.
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yes the Germans would cut through the jugs like butter even if they where the 47n model but the 47's would put up a good fight and so would the bombers even though they're probably low on ammo
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yes the Germans would cut through the jugs like butter even if they where the 47n model but the 47's would put up a good fight and so would the bombers even though they're probably low on ammo
I doubt it. Any of the Jugs would try to get their arses back to England as soon as they realized what was going on if they were smart.
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yeah they probably would've hauled arse to the clouds for cover and left the 17's to fend for themselves
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I've actually read a similar situation where II/JG11 (one of the more successful RVG Gruppen) consisting of 20 (+/- 2-3... a Gruppe would usually consist of 40+ aircraft but JG11 took very heavy casualties throughout the war) 109's jumped a group of 40-60 Mustangs (going off of memory I don't remember well) from the sun and destroyed many for not many losses.
I just remembered I've already copied this story from 'I Flew for the Fuehrer' and posted it on the boards. Without further adieu,
'3rd March, 1944
The Americans attack Hamburg. Specht cannot fly, and I am in temporary command of the Gruppe. Our original forty aircraft have now been reduced to eighteen. These I take into the air.
Over Hamburg I prepare to attack a small formation of Fortresses. My eighteen crates are 5,000 feet above them. Just as I am about to dive, I observe, about 3,000 feet below and to the left, a pack of some sixty Mustangs. They cannot see us, for we happen to be directly between them and the dazzling sun.
This is a magnificent opportunity!
I throttle back to allow the enemy pack to get a little way ahead of us. Wenneckers draws alongside, waving and clasping his hands in delight. For once we are in a position to teach them a real lesson, but I must be careful not to dive too soon. They have not spotted us yet. After them!
In a practically vertical dive we hurtle into the midst of the Yanks, and almost simultaneously we open fire. We take them completely by surprise. In great spirals the Mustangs attempt to get away. Several of them are in flames before they can reach the clouds. One literally disintegrates under fire from my guns.
Yells of triumph echo over our radio.
In the evening I receive the report from Division that the wreckage of no fewer than twelve Mustangs had been found in map reference sectors Caesar Anton four and seven.
There is only one drop of sorrow to tinge the general rejoicing. Methuselah has not returned. Several of the pilots saw a Messerschmitt 109 without wings going down. What has become of Methuselah?'
Methuselah had bailed safely and survived, albeit injured.
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I love it: stack all of the factors to one side's favor, and then deny that they would win. :P
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ok now for another scenario...
4 P-47d-25s are on route to bomb and rocket a Japanese instaltion they where told there was a airfield nearby but they took out the radar 2 days before when 8 A6M2 zeroes come from the direction of the field they drop their ordinance and fire there rockets and proceeded in attacking the zekes but they didn't carry a drop tank for the dog fighting so they realize they need to make short work of the zekes and radio in for another flight of 47's with escorts......the zekes closed in fast and took out a 47 and the pilot bailed so 3 47d-25s with not enough fuel to dog fight for long vs 8 zekes.....
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ok now for another scenario...
4 P-47d-25s are on route to bomb and rocket a Japanese instaltion they where told there was a airfield nearby but they took out the radar 2 days before when 8 A6M2 zeroes come from the direction of the field they drop their ordinance and fire there rockets and proceeded in attacking the zekes but they didn't carry a drop tank for the dog fighting so they realize they need to make short work of the zekes and radio in for another flight of 47's with escorts......the zekes closed in fast and took out a 47 and the pilot bailed so 3 47d-25s with not enough fuel to dog fight for long vs 8 zekes.....
Add the Ki-84.
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no ki-84's they where being repaired
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no ki-84's they where being repaired
Ki-100?
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the zekes closed in fast and took out a 47 and the pilot bailed so 3 47d-25s with not enough fuel to dog fight for long vs 8 zekes.....
They would do what any other USAAF pilot would do in that situation, enter into a shallow climb and accelerate away and return home. No way in Hell a Zeke is going to catch a P-47 unless the Zeke is diving on the Jug from altitude.
ack-ack
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They would do what any other USAAF pilot would do in that situation, enter into a shallow climb and accelerate away and return home. No way in Hell a Zeke is going to catch a P-47 unless the Zeke is diving on the Jug from altitude.
ack-ack
True.
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True.
How would you know? I seriously doubt you've ever read a book on dogfighting or anything remotely close to it. You just parrot what others post because you can't formulate your own posts if it requires more than a two word sentence.
Honestly, you are the epitome of a squeaker and the really sad thing is that you wear it as a badge of honor.
My kingdom for a forum ignore list!
ack-ack
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How would you know? I seriously doubt you've ever read a book on dogfighting or anything remotely close to it. You just parrot what others post because you can't formulate your own posts if it requires more than a two word sentence.
Honestly, you are the epitome of a squeaker and the really sad thing is that you wear it as a badge of honor.
My kingdom for a forum ignore list!
ack-ack
I have a book about dog fighting and the 47s would just kill the zeros. So do you want me to get this thread lock because your a bellybutton to just about every one here?
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SQUEAK!
-nuff said.
ack-ack
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So any one going to finish the story who isn't a ass?
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(Snippage)I have a book about dog fighting and the 47s would just kill the zeros. So do you want me to get this thread lock because your a bellybutton to just about every one here? (End snippage)
Skuzzy I'll take Glock clues for 200$ please.
"And the 47's would just kill the zero's"
How? If you can't say HOW something was done, you can't say it was done. If you can't give proof, it doesn't exist.
P47's can exit the fight at will as long as they have altitude.
But they can't just kill the zero's. The A6m's have a HUGE turn advantage, and their cannons are capable of doing major damage with just a snap shot. So the Jug's can't just "kill them" in order to win they have to use superior tactics. Tactics that maximize their planes strong points, and minimizing their weak points.
You can't just say that one would just "kill" the other without saying HOW.
And then backing that up with cold hard fact.
For example, its a fact that the F4u series of planes maintained a 9 - 1 kill ratio against Japanese planes.
If you know that fact, and IF it apply's to the discussion at hand, then you can USE it to help make your case. But you can't just make blanket statements.
If that is all you can do stop talking!
Skuzzy, Glock clues for 400$ please.
The problem glock as I see it is that your a young person who WANTS all this. However you are thrown into a grown up world, where people communicate using grown up rules. Your still trying to communicate using preteen examples and rules. Hence the problem.
You have 3 choices basically
A sit down and shut up until you can mature enough to hold a reasonable debate or discussion.
B Go to work and read, learn all you can, then read and learn some more.
Listen to everything thats said, how its said and why its said, say little for now.
And someday you will be able to compete. Whats more you'll be able to do it with style.
(Hint, read ALL of widewing's posts till you understand them)
C Continue on the path your on, where you have 0 respect from anyone, no one reads your posts except to slam you. Until eventually consumed by greed and self loathing you commit suicide. Unfortunately this option won't happen soon enough for most readers.
Skuzzy, glock clues for 600$ please.
Glock like it or not this is an adult world you have stumbled into, with adult rules.
Calling people trying to show you the error of your ways prettythangholes is not helping your case any.
Keep it civil, don't return insult for insult. Don't give anyone any reason to take you out of the picture.
See where I'm headed?
Skuzzy Glock clues for 800$ please.
Granted AckAck can be a bit salamanderly. Many of us ol farts can. Know why? Cause we see a dozen of your kind a year come through here. They just jump in with both feet, don't think first. Attack at the first sign of an insult. Get all huffy, get chewed up, and slink off licking their wounds. In short act like the boys they are.
If you want to make it here your going to have to
A grow up fast
B don't pick fights
C don't respond in kind
D Listen much, and say little.
E Respect your Elders, because some of us have been here doing this here since 99. And some of us go back another 6 - 10 years before that with Air Warrior or Warbirds. In short, they are OLD, Wise in the ways of the force and they should be Respected and LISTENED to. Like, uhuh wait for it.
Skuzzy Glock Clues for 1000$ Please.
AckAck.
Glock if someone tells you something, listen to them. Chances are they are right and your wrong.
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Getting back to the subject (not that I don't mind a good roasting. :D).
The event you described sounds like it was from Operation Bodenplatte. It was launched on January 1, 1945. The battle you are describing took place over Metz-Frescaty in France. JG-53 attacked elements of the 9th Air Force and 365th Fighter Group.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unternehmen_Bodenplatte (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unternehmen_Bodenplatte)
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ok now for another scenario...
4 P-47d-25s are on route to bomb and rocket a Japanese instaltion they where told there was a airfield nearby but they took out the radar 2 days before when 8 A6M2 zeroes come from the direction of the field they drop their ordinance and fire there rockets and proceeded in attacking the zekes but they didn't carry a drop tank for the dog fighting so they realize they need to make short work of the zekes and radio in for another flight of 47's with escorts......the zekes closed in fast and took out a 47 and the pilot bailed so 3 47d-25s with not enough fuel to dog fight for long vs 8 zekes.....
As I understand it, A6M2s would have been withdrawn from anything other than kamikaze service by the time the P-47D-25 was in combat with the Japanese, and the kamikaze duty came later.
A6M5s don't change the scenario that much, but they are a bit faster and have significantly upgraded cannons.
Still, the P-47s can withdraw almost at will using a shallow climb.
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(Snippage)I have a book about dog fighting and the 47s would just kill the zeros. So do you want me to get this thread lock because your a bellybutton to just about every one here? (End snippage)
Skuzzy I'll take Glock clues for 200$ please.
"And the 47's would just kill the zero's"
How? If you can't say HOW something was done, you can't say it was done. If you can't give proof, it doesn't exist.
P47's can exit the fight at will as long as they have altitude.
But they can't just kill the zero's. The A6m's have a HUGE turn advantage, and their cannons are capable of doing major damage with just a snap shot. So the Jug's can't just "kill them" in order to win they have to use superior tactics. Tactics that maximize their planes strong points, and minimizing their weak points.
You can't just say that one would just "kill" the other without saying HOW.
And then backing that up with cold hard fact.
For example, its a fact that the F4u series of planes maintained a 9 - 1 kill ratio against Japanese planes.
If you know that fact, and IF it apply's to the discussion at hand, then you can USE it to help make your case. But you can't just make blanket statements.
If that is all you can do stop talking!
Skuzzy, Glock clues for 400$ please.
The problem glock as I see it is that your a young person who WANTS all this. However you are thrown into a grown up world, where people communicate using grown up rules. Your still trying to communicate using preteen examples and rules. Hence the problem.
You have 3 choices basically
A sit down and shut up until you can mature enough to hold a reasonable debate or discussion.
B Go to work and read, learn all you can, then read and learn some more.
Listen to everything thats said, how its said and why its said, say little for now.
And someday you will be able to compete. Whats more you'll be able to do it with style.
(Hint, read ALL of widewing's posts till you understand them)
C Continue on the path your on, where you have 0 respect from anyone, no one reads your posts except to slam you. Until eventually consumed by greed and self loathing you commit suicide. Unfortunately this option won't happen soon enough for most readers.
Skuzzy, glock clues for 600$ please.
Glock like it or not this is an adult world you have stumbled into, with adult rules.
Calling people trying to show you the error of your ways uncleholes is not helping your case any.
Keep it civil, don't return insult for insult. Don't give anyone any reason to take you out of the picture.
See where I'm headed?
Skuzzy Glock clues for 800$ please.
Granted AckAck can be a bit hootly. Many of us ol farts can. Know why? Cause we see a dozen of your kind a year come through here. They just jump in with both feet, don't think first. Attack at the first sign of an insult. Get all huffy, get chewed up, and slink off licking their wounds. In short act like the boys they are.
If you want to make it here your going to have to
A grow up fast
B don't pick fights
C don't respond in kind
D Listen much, and say little.
E Respect your Elders, because some of us have been here doing this here since 99. And some of us go back another 6 - 10 years before that with Air Warrior or Warbirds. In short, they are OLD, Wise in the ways of the force and they should be Respected and LISTENED to. Like, uhuh wait for it.
Skuzzy Glock Clues for 1000$ Please.
AckAck.
Glock if someone tells you something, listen to them. Chances are they are right and your wrong.
He said A6M5 the pilot don't know how to fly they got rush threw training and with very little flying time while you got P-47 who been flying for years and know all the what to do while the new pilots don't. I love how every guy here with the most stars are the biggest amazinhunks you will ever met.
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He said A6M5
Bigrich said A6M2.
the pilot don't know how to fly they got rush threw training and with very little flying time while you got P-47 who been flying for years and know all the what to do while the new pilots don't.
He never stated anything about the level of training of the pilots involved, not about the Japanese, nor about the Americans. Plus, he said the 47s were short on fuel, one of them is shot down almost immediately and they have to fight 3 vs. 8. What can possibly make you think the Americans won't lose this engagement? In a situation like that, it's most likely that the 47 would use their superior speed to disengage.
I warmly invite you to follow Ghosth advices, it'll be a lot better if you do that.
I love it: stack all of the factors to one side's favor, and then deny that they would win. :P
My thought exactly! :D
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Bigrich said A6M2.
He never stated anything about the level of training of the pilots involved, not about the Japanese, nor about the Americans. Plus, he said the 47s were short on fuel, one of them is shot down almost immediately and they have to fight 3 vs. 8. What can possibly make you think the Americans won't lose this engagement? In a situation like that, it's most likely that the 47 would use their superior speed to disengage.
I warmly invite you to follow Ghosth advices, it'll be a lot better if you do that.
My thought exactly! :D
Damn i read to fast oh well.
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don't read so fast next time
next scenario....
6 F6F hellcats are patrolling a area where enemy activity has been spotted they have drop tanks and have been using them for awhile when at the 10 o'clock position they spot 3 zekes and 4 Ki-84's they decide to drop there tanks and proceed with climbing to gain some altitude but what they didn't see was the other 3 KI-84's closing from the 2 o'clock position then one of the wing men spots them and breaks off with his leader to take care of them. A few miles away there is a japanese airfield that is rushing to get planes off the ground and a few miles south of the F6F's position is a carrier that had just launched 4 F4U-4 corsairs and they are on full throttle on the way to help the hellcats out.who has the advantage and the upper hand? and who will win?
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don't read so fast next time
next scenario....
6 F6F hellcats are patrolling a area where enemy activity has been spotted they have drop tanks and have been using them for awhile when at the 10 o'clock position they spot 3 zekes and 4 Ki-84's they decide to drop there tanks and proceed with climbing to gain some altitude but what they didn't see was the other 3 KI-84's closing from the 2 o'clock position then one of the wing men spots them and breaks off with his leader to take care of them. A few miles away there is a japanese airfield that is rushing to get planes off the ground and a few miles south of the F6F's position is a carrier that had just launched 4 F4U-4 corsairs and they are on full throttle on the way to help the hellcats out.who has the advantage and the upper hand? and who will win?
I'm not the best at story telling but I'm going to guess it be a tie maybe i really don't know.
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I'm not the best at story telling but I'm going to guess it be a tie maybe i really don't know.
well i'd like some another persons view but glocks is good
next.....
A flight of 6 190D-9's is doing a routine patrol over the Russian front doing some reconnaissance for the 6th's army's tanks when they run into 4 IL2-type 3's and 3 Yak9-U's and 3 Yak9-T's they radio in they have incoming fighters and fighter bombers and they get to work on the yak's first making short work of them but the russians have 2 more waves of the same # and types of planes and 2 190A-8's are lifting off and 2 more are being re-armed and re-fueled and will take 15mins to prepare and another 5mins to take off and the russian waves are 16min apart.....
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well i'd like some another persons view but glocks is good
next.....
A flight of 6 190D-9's is doing a routine patrol over the Russian front doing some reconnaissance for the 6th's army's tanks when they run into 4 IL2-type 3's and 3 Yak9-U's and 3 Yak9-T's they radio in they have incoming fighters and fighter bombers and they get to work on the yak's first making short work of them but the russians have 2 more waves of the same # and types of planes and 2 190A-8's are lifting off and 2 me are being re-armed and re-fueled and will take 15mins to prepare and another 5mins to take off and the russian waves are 16min apart.....
What is this math now.
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no just giving you a tough scenario :D
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no just giving you a tough scenario :D
Well they all die the end.
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Well they all die the end.
actually they don't the germans would win that small fight & and loose the war in Russia and the russian army would take a few of the captured Dora's and put them into service with the russian airforce :D
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actually they don't the germans would win that small fight & and loose the war in Russia and the russian army would take a few of the captured Dora's and put them into service with the russian airforce :D
So you finish your own story?
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No, the Germans actually burned their aircraft to keep them from falling into the hands of the Russians. This is one of the reasons why so few of the 33,000 Bf109's produced survive to this day.
As far as your situation goes, more Russians would just mean more kills for the Jagdfliegern. By 1944/45 a German pilot would be very happy with the odds you put forth in that situation, I would think, compared to what they normally endured.
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true but some german planes fell into the russian hands and were examined and put into service but only a handfull
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true but some german planes fell into the russian hands and were examined and put into service but only a handfull
Yup that what they did with there tanks.
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Think the Yaks would really fall easy prey to 190's? I guess it depends on the situation, altitudes, speed, etc.
There are so many variables to these stories... :P
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Think the Yaks would really fall easy prey to 190's? I guess it depends on the situation, altitudes, speed, etc.
There are so many variables to these stories... :P
Oh well. :o
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don't read so fast next time
next scenario....
6 F6F hellcats are patrolling a area where enemy activity has been spotted they have drop tanks and have been using them for awhile when at the 10 o'clock position they spot 3 zekes and 4 Ki-84's they decide to drop there tanks and proceed with climbing to gain some altitude but what they didn't see was the other 3 KI-84's closing from the 2 o'clock position then one of the wing men spots them and breaks off with his leader to take care of them. A few miles away there is a japanese airfield that is rushing to get planes off the ground and a few miles south of the F6F's position is a carrier that had just launched 4 F4U-4 corsairs and they are on full throttle on the way to help the hellcats out.who has the advantage and the upper hand? and who will win?
The 3 zekes and 4 ki84s have be up for a while (maybe these Japanese plane are getting low on fuel) in that the f6fs were sent in to find them, the f6fs just dropped tanks so fuel is not an issue for the f6fs. The 3 ki84s at the 2 o'colck position are truly the immediate danger, team work comes into play. I think the 2 f6fs bring down 1 ki84 and lose a f6f and the remaining are lost from the rest of the fight to find their way back alone.
that leave us with the remaining 4 "climbing" f6fs vs 10 (3 zekes and 7 ki84) the f6fs are gaining on the 10 Japanese aircraft from a 10 o'clock position. the f6fs then dive (im just guessing) into the 10 Japanese aircraft and down at least 2 (lets say a zeke and a ki84) about that time the 4 F4us (fresh from lift off) arrive and start to slash (using Boom and zoom )thru the Japanese aircraft. taking down at least 2 more, leaving 6 very surprised and now out numbered Japanese pilots. I think the large force of Japanese planes were likely low on fuel also.
the other Japanese planes that just took off are still on the way due to the fact their aircraft could not get their as fast as the f4us from the carrier. I also suspect that at least a few of the Japanese aircraft had ripped their radios out to lessen the weight of there aircraft, resulting in a lack of cordinated response. (i have read a few accounts where that was done, mostly with early war zeros thought)
Japanese loses 5 craft
Allied loses 1 craft
after all that, i have to say what i just wrote is a bunch of Cr@P. I'm just guessing, I'm sure I'm overlooking a few variables and i have been drinking! :)
Mojito Zuii
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The 3 zekes and 4 ki84s have be up for a while (maybe these Japanese plane are getting low on fuel) in that the f6fs were sent in to find them, the f6fs just dropped tanks so fuel is not an issue for the f6fs. The 3 ki84s at the 2 o'colck position are truly the immediate danger, team work comes into play. I think the 2 f6fs bring down 1 ki84 and lose a f6f and the remaining are lost from the rest of the fight to find their way back alone.
that leave us with the remaining 4 "climbing" f6fs vs 10 (3 zekes and 7 ki84) the f6fs are gaining on the 10 Japanese aircraft from a 10 o'clock position. the f6fs then dive (im just guessing) into the 10 Japanese aircraft and down at least 2 (lets say a zeke and a ki84) about that time the 4 F4us (fresh from lift off) arrive and start to slash (using Boom and zoom )thru the Japanese aircraft. taking down at least 2 more, leaving 6 very surprised and now out numbered Japanese pilots. I think the large force of Japanese planes were likely low on fuel also.
the other Japanese planes that just took off are still on the way due to the fact their aircraft could not get their as fast as the f4us from the carrier. I also suspect that at least a few of the Japanese aircraft had ripped their radios out to lessen the weight of there aircraft, resulting in a lack of cordinated response. (i have read a few accounts where that was done, mostly with early war zeros thought)
Japanese loses 5 craft
Allied loses 1 craft
after all that, i have to say what i just wrote is a bunch of Cr@P. I'm just guessing, I'm sure I'm overlooking a few variables and i have been drinking! :)
Mojito Zuii
I saw better.
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I saw better.
lets hear it?
mojito zuii
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lets hear it?
mojito zuii
A B-29 come in a drop a nuke and kill ever one. :D
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A B-29 come in a drop a nuke and kill ever one. :D
Only a fool laughs at his own "joke". Nothing Ghosth typed to you made a bit of difference. Good luck in life, because you're going to need it. You seem to have a very low level of intelligence, as your posts are championing that perfectly. But hey, at least you're proud about something.
You've provided not one decent post in this entire thread. As Ack-Ack stated previously, you "parrot" others, or you simply provide useless posts filled with piss-poor grammar and attempt to get someone to laugh along side you. The sad thing is you probably believe you are being funny, but you're far from it.
Ghosth, that was an excellent post and he ignored it. You tried, but he'd rather continue his immature diatribe.
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Only a fool laughs at his own "joke". Nothing Ghosth typed to you made a bit of difference. Good luck in life, because you're going to need it. You seem to have a very low level of intelligence, as your posts are championing that perfectly. But hey, at least you're proud about something.
You've provided not one decent post in this entire thread. As Ack-Ack stated previously, you "parrot" others, or you simply provide useless posts filled with piss-poor grammar and attempt to get someone to laugh along side you. The sad thing is you probably believe you are being funny, but you're far from it.
Ghosth, that was an excellent post and he ignored it. You tried, but he'd rather continue his immature diatribe.
Karaya vs. Glock
35:1 in favor of Karaya and anyone else joining him.
Place your bets.
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The 3 zekes and 4 ki84s have be up for a while (maybe these Japanese plane are getting low on fuel) in that the f6fs were sent in to find them, the f6fs just dropped tanks so fuel is not an issue for the f6fs. The 3 ki84s at the 2 o'colck position are truly the immediate danger, team work comes into play. I think the 2 f6fs bring down 1 ki84 and lose a f6f and the remaining are lost from the rest of the fight to find their way back alone.
that leave us with the remaining 4 "climbing" f6fs vs 10 (3 zekes and 7 ki84) the f6fs are gaining on the 10 Japanese aircraft from a 10 o'clock position. the f6fs then dive (im just guessing) into the 10 Japanese aircraft and down at least 2 (lets say a zeke and a ki84) about that time the 4 F4us (fresh from lift off) arrive and start to slash (using Boom and zoom )thru the Japanese aircraft. taking down at least 2 more, leaving 6 very surprised and now out numbered Japanese pilots. I think the large force of Japanese planes were likely low on fuel also.
the other Japanese planes that just took off are still on the way due to the fact their aircraft could not get their as fast as the f4us from the carrier. I also suspect that at least a few of the Japanese aircraft had ripped their radios out to lessen the weight of there aircraft, resulting in a lack of cordinated response. (i have read a few accounts where that was done, mostly with early war zeros thought)
Japanese loses 5 craft
Allied loses 1 craft
after all that, i have to say what i just wrote is a bunch of Cr@P. I'm just guessing, I'm sure I'm overlooking a few variables and i have been drinking! :)
Mojito Zuii
I should add that of the japanese planes taking off from airfield, not only are they late getting to the fight, they lose one ki84 on take off. Because they made landing gear from bamboo. (metal alloys not being heated properly during production due to war time logistics)
so then
japanese lose 5 in battle and one during take off.
Allied lose 1.
Again, I have no idea what im talking about. flame away! :)
zuii
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(Snippage)I have a book about dog fighting and the 47s would just kill the zeros. So do you want me to get this thread lock because your a bellybutton to just about every one here? (End snippage)
Skuzzy I'll take Glock clues for 200$ please.
"And the 47's would just kill the zero's"
How? If you can't say HOW something was done, you can't say it was done. If you can't give proof, it doesn't exist.
P47's can exit the fight at will as long as they have altitude.
But they can't just kill the zero's. The A6m's have a HUGE turn advantage, and their cannons are capable of doing major damage with just a snap shot. So the Jug's can't just "kill them" in order to win they have to use superior tactics. Tactics that maximize their planes strong points, and minimizing their weak points.
You can't just say that one would just "kill" the other without saying HOW.
And then backing that up with cold hard fact.
For example, its a fact that the F4u series of planes maintained a 9 - 1 kill ratio against Japanese planes.
If you know that fact, and IF it apply's to the discussion at hand, then you can USE it to help make your case. But you can't just make blanket statements.
If that is all you can do stop talking!
Skuzzy, Glock clues for 400$ please.
The problem glock as I see it is that your a young person who WANTS all this. However you are thrown into a grown up world, where people communicate using grown up rules. Your still trying to communicate using preteen examples and rules. Hence the problem.
You have 3 choices basically
A sit down and shut up until you can mature enough to hold a reasonable debate or discussion.
B Go to work and read, learn all you can, then read and learn some more.
Listen to everything thats said, how its said and why its said, say little for now.
And someday you will be able to compete. Whats more you'll be able to do it with style.
(Hint, read ALL of widewing's posts till you understand them)
C Continue on the path your on, where you have 0 respect from anyone, no one reads your posts except to slam you. Until eventually consumed by greed and self loathing you commit suicide. Unfortunately this option won't happen soon enough for most readers.
Skuzzy, glock clues for 600$ please.
Glock like it or not this is an adult world you have stumbled into, with adult rules.
Calling people trying to show you the error of your ways uncleholes is not helping your case any.
Keep it civil, don't return insult for insult. Don't give anyone any reason to take you out of the picture.
See where I'm headed?
Skuzzy Glock clues for 800$ please.
Granted AckAck can be a bit hootly. Many of us ol farts can. Know why? Cause we see a dozen of your kind a year come through here. They just jump in with both feet, don't think first. Attack at the first sign of an insult. Get all huffy, get chewed up, and slink off licking their wounds. In short act like the boys they are.
If you want to make it here your going to have to
A grow up fast
B don't pick fights
C don't respond in kind
D Listen much, and say little.
E Respect your Elders, because some of us have been here doing this here since 99. And some of us go back another 6 - 10 years before that with Air Warrior or Warbirds. In short, they are OLD, Wise in the ways of the force and they should be Respected and LISTENED to. Like, uhuh wait for it.
Skuzzy Glock Clues for 1000$ Please.
AckAck.
Glock if someone tells you something, listen to them. Chances are they are right and your wrong.
Ghost.....that was beautiful....makes me kinda misty :cry
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I feel so loved.
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Can we skip over this glock thing and get on with my BRILLIANT assessment of this most monumental battle situation.
(cant fly right now so im stuck only on bbs for a few weeks.)
yes i said BRILLIANT! :)
zuii.
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Can we skip over this glock thing and get on with my BRILLIANT assessment of this most monumental battle situation.
(cant fly right now so im stuck only on bbs for a few weeks.)
yes i said BRILLIANT! :)
zuii.
Yes please i want to hear more story's. :pray
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Only a fool laughs at his own "joke". Nothing Ghosth typed to you made a bit of difference. Good luck in life, because you're going to need it. You seem to have a very low level of intelligence, as your posts are championing that perfectly. But hey, at least you're proud about something.
You've provided not one decent post in this entire thread. As Ack-Ack stated previously, you "parrot" others, or you simply provide useless posts filled with piss-poor grammar and attempt to get someone to laugh along side you. The sad thing is you probably believe you are being funny, but you're far from it.
Ghosth, that was an excellent post and he ignored it. You tried, but he'd rather continue his immature diatribe.
Agreed. Glock has spammed his way to 1.5k+ posts and will continue to do so. Mr. Glock, may i ask will you ever actually put some intelligence behind your posts or will you continue you post like a mindless chimp?
:uhoh
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Can we skip over this glock thing and get on with my BRILLIANT assessment of this most monumental battle situation.
(cant fly right now so im stuck only on bbs for a few weeks.)
yes i said BRILLIANT! :)
zuii.
i did say brilliant, didn't i?..........
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Agreed. Glock has spammed his way to 1.5k+ posts and will continue to do so. Mr. Glock, may i ask will you ever actually put some intelligence behind your posts or will you continue you post like a mindless chimp?
:uhoh
I will try to put some intelligence into my post starting now.
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Only a fool laughs at his own "joke". Nothing Ghosth typed to you made a bit of difference. Good luck in life, because you're going to need it. You seem to have a very low level of intelligence, as your posts are championing that perfectly. But hey, at least you're proud about something.
You've provided not one decent post in this entire thread. As Ack-Ack stated previously, you "parrot" others, or you simply provide useless posts filled with piss-poor grammar and attempt to get someone to laugh along side you. The sad thing is you probably believe you are being funny, but you're far from it.
Ghosth, that was an excellent post and he ignored it. You tried, but he'd rather continue his immature diatribe.
Well said bro :aok
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well next Scenario
The Battle Of Africa......
Bf 109's (e-4's and f-4's[6 of each])are escorting JU-88's and Stuka's to bomb some british artillery and forward HQ they didn't expect any fighters but the british set up a forward airbase and launched 5 P-40's (on lend lease act) and 6 spitfires(mk1) the british have set up anti-aircraft emplacements but the ju-88's are out of its alt. limit so they are safe, the german pilots in the escorts start to receive AA fire....the Brit planes are on there way and the german pilots are faced with a choice......take out the AA or the planes......
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There were never any Spitfire Mk1's in North Africa. British forces consisted of P40's and Hurricanes until the Spitfire MkV showed up.
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There were never any Spitfire Mk1's in North Africa. British forces consisted of P40's and Hurricanes until the Spitfire MkV showed up.
whoops i made a error (http://www.fmft.net/doh%20homer%20simpson%20doh.jpg) i meant to say hurricanes
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WTH is wrong with that thread ? Uninteresting "Stories" with no punctuation at all, Some parrots here and there, and a strong Americanism as a background....Could be pearl harbour movie with squeakers dubbing :rofl
(yes I'm laughing at my own joke, I never get bored that way)
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WTH is wrong with that thread ?
You mean this? ;)
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hmm well lets see. the 109s and 190s have a better advantage because of experiance . the noOBs have an advantage with a great plane but are we forgeting the b17s???????? with the power of the fly fortresses the krauts are going to be rapped
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hmm well lets see. the 109s and 190s have a better advantage because of experiance . the noOBs have an advantage with a great plane but are we forgeting the b17s???????? with the power of the fly fortresses the krauts are going to be rapped
No.
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"The Star of Africa" was flying 1 of the 109's,he shoots down all allied A/C himself.Upon RTB the ground crew are astonished to find 60 Kannon rounds left... :aok
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but wait i didnt think about the if the B17 crews are noOBs to... if so then they're fked