Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: Saurdaukar on October 17, 2008, 09:46:55 AM
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Im not sure if this has been brought up before or not and, frankly, since I'm at work, I'm not going to spend 30 minutes searching. BUT, in the time Ive been here, I don't recall reading about it.
The idea came up in another forum and I'm surprised I don't see it once a week in here.
AW types know the drill, but for those who do not, the suggestion is as follows:
1.) Place factories throughout the map that 'produce' high ENY planes or high use planes for each country.
2.) If sufficiently bombed, the specific aircraft produced by that country's factory is disabled for a short amount of time. Say, 15 minutes.
This accomplishes the following:
1.) Gives buff drivers a real (as in 'actually important') strategic target.
2.) Gives little guys a real excuse to get up and defend one.
3.) Temporarily reduces the probability of encountering the same-old-same-old gaggle of La1K Mk16's.
4.) Encourages newer players to expand their exposure beyond the point and click A/C, thereby increasing the skill level of the average player in a more rapid fashion.
The ability or inability to fly any specific A/C is within the control of the player base, it is not 'forced.'
What say you?
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Oh the whines.......wait....I love it!
Race
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Even being a Spit dweeb I'd agree to it.
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Does there have to be a factory for every aircraft or is it just for the lowest ENY rides?
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Haha!
A wonderful concept. :aok
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Does there have to be a factory for every aircraft or is it just for the lowest ENY rides?
No, not for every plane, I'd expect. HTC could set it up however they wished, of course, but I dont think they'd want to pepper the map with factories for each plane; the set is too big. I also dont think that the spirit of the idea is to limit the use of the 202.
If someone bombed the '202 factory,' no one would care. However, if someone bombed the Spit 16 factory, I bet plenty would. Low ENY A/C would be the aim, IMO.
Maybe just a couple factories per country, one producing Aircraft X and one producing Aircraft Y? Whether or not you wish to include variants is open for debate, I suppose.
I think its important to understand, though, that the spirit of the idea is not to limit the use of the Spit/La7/Nik/etc. Thats a byproduct. The spirit of the idea is to introduce a new aspect of gameplay that I think a lot of people would enjoy... and hell, if you can take out some of your frustration by poking fun of the Knights on 200 after bombing their Lavochkin factory, all the better. :D
How long have buff drivers been asking for a 'real' strategic target that has a significant enough impact on gameplay to warrant spending 45 minutes in a bomber?
Here you go.
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Sounds like an interesting idea; make it even more so by not having the factory show up on the map...you have to fly around and find it yourself.
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Maybe instead of disabling a plane, you can add a perk cost to it.
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An interesting idea, the first question I would have would be. Woudln't this make it harder for the less populated country to put up resistance?
It would seem to me that the country that already enjoys a numerical advantage could remove the better performing planes and facilitate rolling up the map with lessened opposition.
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No, do not have a specific plane factory.
Have "aircraft production facilities" as one possible target, heavily defended in each country's hinterland behind the uncapturables. Have a sliding ENY/Perk system-the more you bomb aircraft production facilities, the higher the price goes on perk planes. Unperked high ENY planes would pick up a price.
Of course, this would require a few changes. First, the ENY would be updated. It is silly that a fighter like the 109 K-4 or Yak-9U is 20 ENY, while the Ta-152 is 5. Second, I would get rid of people being ENYed out of either perk planes or high ENY planes. Instead, as I alluded to, flying them would simply involve a perk cost. Third, and this is only tangentially related, but interesting, I would give practically every aircraft except the most basic models a light perk price. Of course, I would also give each AH player a stipend of 100 perks a tour so no one would be doomed to never flying an La-7 or a Spit16, no matter how inept at earning perks.
You could do similar things for say, fuel, ammo, or ord. Bomb enough production facilities for those into the ground, and taking off with a full load could cost perks.
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I am all for any sort of relevant strat system! :aok
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An interesting idea, the first question I would have would be. Woudln't this make it harder for the less populated country to put up resistance?
It would seem to me that the country that already enjoys a numerical advantage could remove the better performing planes and facilitate rolling up the map with lessened opposition.
I think the simple answer to this question is yes, it would make it harder for the numerically disadvantaged country to put up resistance. The caveat to that, however, is that the factory then becomes that much more important of a target to defend.
Assuming these hypothetical factories exist far behind the front line, any raid would probably be spotted well beforehand (not dissimilar from most HQ raids) and defenders could up with a reasonable probability of interception.
Thinking out loud... that would also probably result in player-created missions designed to hit a factory which, in turn, might even offer a fairly constant flow of nearly scenario-like, ETO-type engagements if a player were so inclined to participate.
Since its all player influenced, I dont think I'd recommend screwing around with ENY values or applying population calculations to something complicated like say... increasing the amount of ord required to take out a factory belonging to a lesser populated country. KISS rule.
...could cost perks.
I'm wary of introducing perks into the equation. I think it makes the whole thing more complex than it needs to be.
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why don't you throw in perk plane factories - perk gv factories, p51 factories and bomber factories... in fact why dont you remove every single plane/vehicles from the set and leave one of each meaning all fights are with the same aircraft....
**STOP PRESS**
If the above is what you want go buy a zx spectrum and buy top gun.
/me shakes head.
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Brilliant add a 109k plant and you have my vote.
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I think this is a very good idea.
We could call it an R&D facility since most of the 5 eny rides are late war uber rides anyway and have it effect all 5 eny vehicles and planes.
I think that in respect to the question of overwhelming numbers though. The current ENY system becomes even more important to aid in the case where the side with numbers has a better chance of hitting the target due to having the numbers to pull away from fights to hit such a thing with little risk to losing their bases. Where the low number side has less people to work with and are less likely to have the people to spare for such things without taking away from defending against the already present hordes at bases.
The other thing I think would help is if the amount of damage it took to knock out the 5 eny rides was on a sliding scale with regards to numbers of players on each team, like the eny system is.
Just my thoughts
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Bad idea. Would put the low numbers side at an even bigger disadvantage.
Could maybe see it if it disabled a random unit.
And it amuses me how the most common aircraft, the P-51D, is once again left off of the list. Can't have anything affecting the P-51D now can we?
About the random unit idea. I recall the Luftwaffe blowing the hell out of a pot factory in 1940 while a Spitfire factory sat untouched within 5 miles of it.
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Sounds like an interesting idea; make it even more so by not having the factory show up on the map...you have to fly around and find it yourself.
Best part of the idea. :aok
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Brilliant add a 109k plant and you have my vote.
:lol
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And it amuses me how the most common aircraft, the P-51D, is once again left off of the list. Can't have anything affecting the P-51D now can we?
You beat me to it. That was my first thought, too.
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As long as the air craft plants destroy random planes, i have no problem with it. :rock
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Sounds like an interesting idea; make it even more so by not having the factory show up on the map...you have to fly around and find it yourself.
that was one of the cool features in AW4W, there were a couple of hidden bases and bunkers you could go to. Though, eventually you would learn where these hidden bases were like B82.
ack-ack
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that was one of the cool features in AW4W, there were a couple of hidden bases and bunkers you could go to. Though, eventually you would learn where these hidden bases were like B82.
ack-ack
One subroutine added to coad which would randomly place these bases each time the map resets; yeah?
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Mazz:
As ur self apointed lawyer,I have filed a copy right petition for the following
"Mk16 La1K"
:lol :lol :rofl :rofl
Ya made my day if that 1!!!
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And it amuses me how the most common aircraft, the P-51D, is once again left off of the list. Can't have anything affecting the P-51D now can we?
For the life of me, I can not figure your problem with the P-51D, Karnak, unless you just dislike popularity. It is an 8 ENY plane and as modeled in AH it eminently deserves that price, being a mediocre ride compared to a lot under typical LW MA conditions. The bizarre part is that the Typhoon, Fw-190D9 and 109 K-4 have a higher ENY, being just as effective if not more so in filling the P-51's niche at typical MA alts.
Of the four most popular planes, ONLY the P-51D is flown mostly because of "what it is" and NOT because of "what it can do".
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For the life of me, I can not figure your problem with the P-51D, Karnak, unless you just dislike popularity. It is an 8 ENY plane and as modeled in AH it eminently deserves that price, being a mediocre ride compared to a lot under typical LW MA conditions. The bizarre part is that the Typhoon, Fw-190D9 and 109 K-4 have a higher ENY, being just as effective if not more so in filling the P-51's niche at typical MA alts.
Of the four most popular planes, ONLY the P-51D is flown mostly because of "what it is" and NOT because of "what it can do".
You're only think of the P-51D's air-to-air ability. It's a darn good ground attack plane, too.
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And it amuses me how the most common aircraft, the P-51D, is once again left off of the list. Can't have anything affecting the P-51D now can we?
Personally, while I think having such factories is a fantastic griefing tool, I really don't think it's necessary in AH. Back in AW, when everyone and their mothers flew Spitfire IXs and how they were purposefully over modeled, it was a nice little feature to have but then again, destroying the Spitfire factory in AW was usually done to upset the other country and not for any real strategic purposes. It was a blast to go over to the factory, bomb the crap out of it and start hearing the whines, "WTF happened to my Spit 9!" and only seeing Spit Is flying instead.
I'd rather have a zone limit system, similiar to AWs, added to the game instead.
ack-ack
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I say we have a Buff plant, and plants for each ENY...such as 5-10, 10-20, 20-30 etc, etc.
The higher the ENY, the farther back the factory is.
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No, do not have a specific plane factory.
Have "aircraft production facilities" as one possible target, heavily defended in each country's hinterland behind the uncapturables. Have a sliding ENY/Perk system-the more you bomb aircraft production facilities, the higher the price goes on perk planes. Unperked high ENY planes would pick up a price.
Of course, this would require a few changes. First, the ENY would be updated. It is silly that a fighter like the 109 K-4 or Yak-9U is 20 ENY, while the Ta-152 is 5. Second, I would get rid of people being ENYed out of either perk planes or high ENY planes. Instead, as I alluded to, flying them would simply involve a perk cost. Third, and this is only tangentially related, but interesting, I would give practically every aircraft except the most basic models a light perk price. Of course, I would also give each AH player a stipend of 100 perks a tour so no one would be doomed to never flying an La-7 or a Spit16, no matter how inept at earning perks.
You could do similar things for say, fuel, ammo, or ord. Bomb enough production facilities for those into the ground, and taking off with a full load could cost perks.
now if you take BnZ's idea and mix it with
then i think we would be on to something very radical and exstremely helpful to all of the major complaints of those in the game.
gives purpose to eny, helps eliviate the flood of perk rides (including gv's) will force more players to fly other rides for periods of time or to spend the perks to get the high end stuff.
if you take the eny mathematical formula and apply it as a multiplier for the amount of damage it would take to destroy one of these factories (i.e. say it takes 3000 base points of damage to destroy the factory, if you country has a downward (least player factor) eny of 20 then you multiple your factory damage rate by 2.0 (3000x2.0=6000) thus it would now take 6000 points of damage to destroy it, if your country has an upward eny (highest player factor) of the same 20 points, then you devide your factory rating of 3000 by this eny factor (3000/2.0=1500) making your factory much easier to destroy.
thus a country suffering low numbers could spare a few bomber jockies to level the playing field in planes and gv's.
FLOTSOM
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For the life of me, I can not figure your problem with the P-51D, Karnak, unless you just dislike popularity. It is an 8 ENY plane and as modeled in AH it eminently deserves that price, being a mediocre ride compared to a lot under typical LW MA conditions. The bizarre part is that the Typhoon, Fw-190D9 and 109 K-4 have a higher ENY, being just as effective if not more so in filling the P-51's niche at typical MA alts.
Of the four most popular planes, ONLY the P-51D is flown mostly because of "what it is" and NOT because of "what it can do".
I have no problem with the P-51D. I have a problem with people being selective and trying to only screw the other guy.
As to flying it for what it is, I think you'd be surprised how many people hold Spitfires in genuine affection. I signed up to this game just to fly the Spitfire, which I did for a couple years before I got so sick of the whines I switched to the Mosquito.
Yes, the Spitfire is pretty easy to be successful in and it makes it easier to recover from errors without paying in full for them, so it does attract players that way. Likewise, the P-51D enables certain tactics and that attracts some players. The idea that only the P-51D is getting many players due to a particular liking for the aircraft and its history is absurd.
I will grant you that the honest La-7 or N1K2-J enthusists surely make a tiny fraction of the players that use them.
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I say we have a Buff plant, and plants for each ENY...such as 5-10, 10-20, 20-30 etc, etc.
The higher the ENY, the farther back the factory is.
While it wasn't perfect, AW had a pretty decent strat system where each strat target did have an infuence over the country. If you were to close down a factory and then close down the resupply base (the base that was used to launch the supply drones to the bases), you could keep a base(s) shut down for a few hours. That's why it was important to defend those bases and were the locations of many a good furballs/battles that could last hours.
ack-ack
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I just posted a huge thing on this a few days ago. I've put a lot of thought into it. Instead of specific plane fac's have plane nationality Fac's. For example, British Aircraft fac, German/Italian, Russian, Prop Perk plane Fac, Jet Factories, etc. That way a whole subset of players will have a vested interest in their preservation of the Fac type for their favorite plane's nationality, not just one particular model.
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You're only think of the P-51D's air-to-air ability. It's a darn good ground attack plane, too.
T-Y-P-H-O-O-N
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Well, yes, you are indeed right about the noble Supermarine Spitfire Karnak, some would fly Spit variants even if they weren't as competitive as 109s. I call spits half-and-half in that regard. I still remember the first time I caught "Spitfire!" and "Battle of Britain" on T.V. as a kid.
I have no problem with the P-51D. I have a problem with people being selective and trying to only screw the other guy.
As to flying it for what it is, I think you'd be surprised how many people hold Spitfires in genuine affection. I signed up to this game just to fly the Spitfire, which I did for a couple years before I got so sick of the whines I switched to the Mosquito.
Yes, the Spitfire is pretty easy to be successful in and it makes it easier to recover from errors without paying in full for them, so it does attract players that way. Likewise, the P-51D enables certain tactics and that attracts some players. The idea that only the P-51D is getting many players due to a particular liking for the aircraft and its history is absurd.
I will grant you that the honest La-7 or N1K2-J enthusists surely make a tiny fraction of the players that use them.
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T-Y-P-H-O-O-N
I actually tested which fighters were the fastest to climb to 10k, make it to the next base and deliver 2k of bombs. #1: P-38L, #2: Mosquito Mk VI, #3: Bf110G-2, #4: Typhoon Mk Ib. I don't recall where the P-51D, F6F-5 and F4Us came in and there wasn't a P-38J at the time I tested it.
Basically, two engines haul bombs faster, most particularly during the climb to 10k.
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You're only think of the P-51D's air-to-air ability. It's a darn good ground attack plane, too.
You're thinking of the Thunderbolt. Taking a Pony for GA is silly, more boom = more happiness = more "WTF happened to the hangars? QUAH!!!!" over range.
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I actually tested which fighters were the fastest to climb to 10k, make it to the next base and deliver 2k of bombs. #1: P-38L, #2: Mosquito Mk VI, #3: Bf110G-2, #4: Typhoon Mk Ib. I don't recall where the P-51D, F6F-5 and F4Us came in and there wasn't a P-38J at the time I tested it.
Basically, two engines haul bombs faster, most particularly during the climb to 10k.
The problem is, to effectively use a Typhoon in most MA conditions you HAVE to bring DT's to extend flight time. Re-avaluate the climb out to 10k with those puppies strapped on...
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You're thinking of the Thunderbolt. Taking a Pony for GA is silly, more boom = more happiness = more "WTF happened to the hangars? QUAH!!!!" over range.
I agree, but I was just trying to make sense of its low ENY for BnZ. 2 x 1k bombs plus a bunch of rockets ain't too shabby.
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I think the ENY factor is the easiest way to implement a plane availability factor, no need to alter the game with a bunch of long drawn out coding. Here is how it works (and used to work, iirc):
For each fighter hanger destoryed the ENY of that specific base is raised by 10 points (or other such factor, but make it legit). This would simulate an airfield having less to choose from for available defending aircraft and in many cases the "best" were often in the fewest numbers due to being used elsewhere. If there are 4 fighter hangers and 3 of them are destroyed, then we're looking at a 30 ENY score (wich needs to be adjusted to allow THAT score and higher, and not THAT score and below if increments of 10 are used). If this system were used it would allow the game to get away from the "all or none" system of play when it comes to OBJ and base strat targets. If the major strat targets can have a sliding scale of damage... I would think that the same could be applied to the hangers (and base strats too).
On the same note... I think the base strat targets should be a sliding scale as well (destory 1 fuel bunker = no DT, 2 fuel bunkers = %75 fuel, etc). This "all or none" is becoming too "same-same", and introducing a sliding damage scale for the base strats and hangers would limit the number of 1k bombs, DT, lancs-stuks, and "uber" fighters we see without messing with the ENY and OBJ scores HTC seems to be so hesitant to adjust.
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The problem is, to effectively use a Typhoon in most MA conditions you HAVE to bring DT's to extend flight time. Re-avaluate the climb out to 10k with those puppies strapped on...
You only need DTs if you plan on staying and fighting. If your goal is simply to drop your eggs and head for home the Tiffie can do it just fine on internal, so long as it isn't a deep penetration raid.
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You only need DTs if you plan on staying and fighting. If your goal is simply to drop your eggs and head for home the Tiffie can do it just fine on internal, so long as it isn't a deep penetration raid.
People actually plan to just drop eggs and fly home?!? How, freaking boring is that! :O
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Say, this is a wonderful idea! But of course, it shouldn't be Spit XVI or Spit IX factories (both with measly K/D of only 1.09) or La-7 factories (even worse at K/D=1.02). It should be F4U-1C (2.24), F4U-4 (2.25), Bf109K-4 (1.34), Bf109G-14 (1.12), and Hurricane IIC (1.4) factories now shouldn't it?
Oh, wait... those are the planes you want to fly? Then it isn't such a good idea is it?
Oh, so you actually want to increase plane diversity? Then it should be P51D factories shouldn't it, as those are the most used fighters.
Oh, I see... you just want to cause grief for people who fly planes you don't like. I see; that makes much more sense.
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See my post above where I reiterate my suggestion that the fac's be nationality specific not make/model specific. This would eliminate "prejudicial" treatment of one particular plane model or another and increase the number of people who would have a vested interest in protecting a given nationality's fighter set.
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That's even worse. You want Brits to have no British cartoon planes to fly? You want them to fly Bf109's? I see the only outcome here is to cause grief and to up kills by bombers on fighters as they vainly try to protect the factories. (In my experience of watching people trying to intercept bombers in AH the bombers have something like an 85% chance of destroying their target. So a few dedicated buff drivers could permanently remove certain planes from AH by keeping the factories down forever.)
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That's even worse. You want Brits to have no British cartoon planes to fly? You want them to fly Bf109's? I see the only outcome here is to cause grief and to up kills by bombers on fighters as they vainly try to protect the factories. (In my experience of watching people trying to intercept bombers in AH the bombers have something like an 85% chance of destroying their target. So a few dedicated buff drivers could permanently remove certain planes from AH by keeping the factories down forever.)
Variables like hardness and tonnage required can be modified right there in the CM tool interface. There would have to be consideration as to their locations, they must have proximate fields from which to launch a proper reactionary defense.
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That's even worse. You want Brits to have no British cartoon planes to fly? You want them to fly Bf109's? I see the only outcome here is to cause grief and to up kills by bombers on fighters as they vainly try to protect the factories. (In my experience of watching people trying to intercept bombers in AH the bombers have something like an 85% chance of destroying their target. So a few dedicated buff drivers could permanently remove certain planes from AH by keeping the factories down forever.)
I always found bombers easy prey and when I played I always had a massively positive K/D ratio against them.
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I always found bombers easy prey and when I played I always had a massively positive K/D ratio against them.
A Bomber formation is/can be. Several together with loose escort...not so much...
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There's no doubt that there are some people that can easily take out a formation of bombers usually before they hit their target. From my casual observation, most people can't.
Air Warrior had destroyable Spitfire factories. It was an unpopular feature and was modified and then removed. I fully support your freedom to fly whatever plane you want. Why do you wish to remove that freedom from other players? As others have mentioned, some people fly certain planes because they respect and admire them, not because they are "point and click". If Spitfires were "point and click" they'd have better than a paltry 1.09 K/D wouldn't they? I fly Spits exclusively (I's ,V's, and IX's) because they are beautiful planes and are what defended democracy against darkness in the early part of the war.
I understand your desire for more strategic possibilities. I just wish it could be done without griefing other players. Say, for example, requiring that a certain percentage of a countries factories be down before the other country can win the war.