Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: MjTalon on October 23, 2008, 01:51:34 PM
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I know alot of pilot's go on what they see, view, and heard about on TV about the WW2 planes. But as far as the P51D goes compared to the P47D in sheer terms of versatility wouldn't you think the obvious choice would be the Jug?
A perfect example was this past MoM rook raid. There were over 40 P51D escorts compared to 15-25 P47Ds. Everyone was briefed that we were escorting 2 bomber wings to target and enemy opposition was highly expected at altitudes exceeding 25k. Majority of the P51D pilots from reports from the AAR proved that the P51Ds sustained little over 50% more casualties than the P47s and we had nearly a 50% differential in total airplane force.
Now i know the P51D is advertised as the "best" American Escort fighter of WW2. I'm not going to denounce the P51 because it's a truly amazing aircraft but at those altitudes the obvious choice was infact the P47. The P47 has 33% more firepower than the P51D, more than enough to do your fair share of shooting at those alts and still have ammo left over. Better high alt performance than a P51D above 25k and is on just about equal terms with the P51D at 15-20k. Better armor that helps out against taking a few shells without having to bail out away from the mission. And Is not Prone To Radiator damage like the P51D.
Just my $0.02 cents. :eek:
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But as far as the P51D goes compared to the P47D in sheer terms of versatility wouldn't you think the obvious choice would be the Jug?
Yep
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I think i should have also added as the Obvious High Alt escort fighter above 20k steve.
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I think i should have also added as the Obvious High Alt escort fighter above 20k steve.
yep
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As I understand it the Jug had more kills than the pony.
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TOM the p47d jug came out 3 years before the mustang-there 4,was in the war alot longer than the mustang.
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P-51 suffers from the "Spitfire syndrome" which means that new guys see the name and immediately go for it.
This equates to more numbers in game, some less skilled, and higher losses.
The smart guys took the jug and this also shows in the loss rate.
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I think you have a bias though Talon.
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I think you have a bias though Talon.
No he doesn't.
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I think you have a bias though Talon.
I think your right. If you realy want to comapre two planes that were outstanding during the end of the war, compare the P-51D and the P-47N. The N would be far supirior, comared to the PonyD, because its more adavced than the Pony.
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If I were in your shoes I would go with a P-47N. At 30k+ it's still getting faster.
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I never meant it in a bad way, just from what I know he is full on P47.
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You think he's a JUG kinda guy? :lol Where would you get that idea?
Oh yeah, JUGS rule. :rock
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It was the P-47 that won the air war in Europe not the Mustang. The Mustang just got the credit. I used to fish with a guy who flew Jugs in the war and he used to tell me the storys. Much of the Luftwaffe attrition was done with ground attacks. The Jug was also a terror to German rail traffic, a fact you dont hear to often nowdays. That the German war machine was heavily Dependant on rail traffic.
I was in a LA-7 the other day and ran into Sir Loin who was in a Jug, and who had like 5k on me. He repeatedly B&Z'd me and no matter what I did I could take him away from his strategy and I couldn't slow him down or get an "E" advantage. Eventually he got me and it really showed what a good Jug stick can do.
The P-47 is a great plane, it was in real life and it is in the game. The real reason I'm not in it as much is cause I dive bomb a lot and I get tired of the inevitable hole in the main fuel tank. If they ever fix the damage model I'll spend more time in the Jug.
Seeing one of those heavily armed monsters, with all the MGs, rockets, and bombs, screaming at you must have been a frightening experience.
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It was the P-47 that won the air war in Europe not the Mustang.
No single aircraft, or even air force, won the air war in Europe. <edit for clarification> The claims that one aircraft did it all are just idiotic.
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It was the P-47 that won the air war in Europe not the Mustang. The Mustang just got the credit. I used to fish with a guy who flew Jugs in the war and he used to tell me the storys. Much of the Luftwaffe attrition was done with ground attacks. The Jug was also a terror to German rail traffic, a fact you dont hear to often nowdays. That the German war machine was heavily Dependant on rail traffic.
Someone posted a link a while back to a video of some JUGS taking out rail bridges and such. Wild stuff.
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Someone posted a link a while back to a video of some JUGS taking out rail bridges and such. Wild stuff.
This is a good one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGm5ZobgpBw&feature=related
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No single aircraft, or even air force, won the air war in Europe. <edit for clarification> The claims that one aircraft did it all are just idiotic.
Gee...thanks. None of knew that. Must be tough for you living in a world full of idiots.
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Talon, I like the Jug too, but come on, let's be honest.
First and foremost, the Jugs didn't have the range the P-51 had until the P-47N came out. The P-47Ds simply couldn't do the same missions the P-51 could.
Second, I just did a quick look at the P-51 B and Ds vs. the 47Ds performance up to 30K in game. Basically, there is little or no performance advantage to the Jug before the M/N below 30K, and performance disadvantage below 20K. Of course, that doesn't take into account things like Robert Johnson's hot-rod, but its a good measuring stick. If we want to compare a very-late war upgrade like the P-47M/N to a Mustang, then it is most properly compared to the P-51H.
Third, one of the reasons I often fly a Jug instead of a Pony in AHII is that here is little or no maneuverability disadvantage in flying the Jug, indeed, in pure turning radius and slow handling, the Jug has it over the Pony in our game. This simply does not mesh with real-life assessments of the aircraft by both Allied and Axis pilots. Awhile back, I posted the commentary of a Luftwaffe pilot who also tested captured Allied aircraft, his words were something along the lines of "The P-47 was not so bad because the 109 could out-climb and out-turn it, the P-51 was another matter."
For very long range escorts and as a dogfighter below 25-30K, the Mustang was indeed a step forward. For dominating at very high altitudes and as a rugged jabo platform, the Jug was indeed the right choice. The Mustang probably does get too much of the press, but that doesn't mean it wasn't the right plane at the right time.
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Alright, here's why we didn't take the N's gavagai:
The P47N fully loaded for escorting tips the scale at 21,000 pounds. Her climb rate fully loaded with that much fuel puts us at a disadvantage until we burned at least 75% internal.
When we were first scouted out, our P47s were barely at 20k before 262s were all over us. Picture if we were in P47Ns fully loaded with gas...it would have been MUCH worst than it was.
IF we would have took off from the mainland ( 25th FW ) we would have been at a good enough alt to put up a good offensive but we were on the defensive from the start. We actually did quite well.
The reason i picked the P47D25 for the escort was simple. She's a beginner jug for those who didn't understand her, and she's lighter than the D40 and N even with fully loaded fuel so it was optimal. If i can recall majority of the 8th AF P47 squadrons flew the D25s, which for historical reasons is why we went with it.
The N's weren't used for ETO and this was a ETO style raid, hence why we didn't choose the D40/N models.
As for you fellers who think I'm a JUG head. Yes in fact i am, but I've flown my fair share of crates to do the criticizing. But this wasn't by all means a whine, just a curious observation from my part...
:salute
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Gee...thanks. None of knew that. Must be tough for you living in a world full of idiots.
Why i edited my original post - didn't want to imply that i was calling you an idiot, guess i failed even with the edit.
I was just saying how stupid the argument is that one single plane won the war. With the Battle of Britain it is always the Spitfire, over Europe it is always the P-51 or B-17. All of which simply are not true.
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Talon, I like the Jug too, but come on, let's be honest.
First and foremost, the Jugs didn't have the range the P-51 had until the P-47N came out. The P-47Ds simply couldn't do the same missions the P-51 could.
P-47N was used for ETO. As i stated below this was a Replica of a 8th AF style raid. If we were doing something of the PTO side I'd have chosen the P47N from deep within Rook land. The P47N's climb rate fully loaded is just horrible sir. the N jug loaded for long/High alt escorting will climb darn near 1100ft/min. A little over that but i'm no numbers guy.
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The climbrate of the D25 with military power seems to be decisive. Good post.
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There could have been economics in the works as well. 51s were substantially cheaper than Jugs as I recall. Most of the pilots didn't care to transition over to the Mustang when they first appeared. Some developed a love for the newer aircraft and others continued to wish for their Thunderbolts back. From a real pilot standpoint I believe I would've preferred a Jug to the mustang simply for survivability. Mustangs were frail in comparison and a single small arms bullet could take out a coolant line and you would be riding silk home instead of aluminum.
Given the choice of any American bird as a WWII pilot I would've chose the Corsair. It was almost as rugged as the Jug and later versions outperformed the mustang in every category except range and rear visibility.
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Given the choice of any American bird as a WWII pilot I would've chose the Corsair. It was almost as rugged as the Jug and later versions outperformed the mustang in every category except range and rear visibility.
Here again, the F4U-4 is most properly compared to the P-51H. I'm not saying the P-51H should be added to the game, but they very nearly did serve in the war and are the most proper comparison if we want to put the "latest and greatest" Mustang up against the other latest and greatest birds from the last five minutes or so of the war.
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I know alot of pilot's go on what they see, view, and heard about on TV about the WW2 planes. But as far as the P51D goes compared to the P47D in sheer terms of versatility wouldn't you think the obvious choice would be the Jug?
A perfect example was this past MoM rook raid. There were over 40 P51D escorts compared to 15-25 P47Ds. Everyone was briefed that we were escorting 2 bomber wings to target and enemy opposition was highly expected at altitudes exceeding 25k. Majority of the P51D pilots from reports from the AAR proved that the P51Ds sustained little over 50% more casualties than the P47s and we had nearly a 50% differential in total airplane force.
Now i know the P51D is advertised as the "best" American Escort fighter of WW2. I'm not going to denounce the P51 because it's a truly amazing aircraft but at those altitudes the obvious choice was infact the P47. The P47 has 33% more firepower than the P51D, more than enough to do your fair share of shooting at those alts and still have ammo left over. Better high alt performance than a P51D above 25k and is on just about equal terms with the P51D at 15-20k. Better armor that helps out against taking a few shells without having to bail out away from the mission. And Is not Prone To Radiator damage like the P51D.
Just my $0.02 cents. :eek:
If there were 50% more P-51's than jugs and the p-51's had 50%more casualties than the the jugs then the casualty rate is the same. P-51's had better range than the P-47's . I have a book written by a German pilot who flew captured American planes and he said below 20K the P-47's were dogs. In fact German pilots would try and lure P-47's below 20K for this reason. I do agree with the rest of your statements.
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Here again, the F4U-4 is most properly compared to the P-51H. I'm not saying the P-51H should be added to the game, but they very nearly did serve in the war and are the most proper comparison if we want to put the "latest and greatest" Mustang up against the other latest and greatest birds from the last five minutes or so of the war.
You're right about that but I still would've prefered the Corsair or the Jug because I'm selfish and want to have a better chance of survival if my plane takes a hit. Plus how many P-51s shot down Korean Mig-15s? And I don't remember hearing them changing the max G-loads on Corsairs for major control surfaces departing the aircraft but I seem to remember them doing that to the 51s.
For me it's about reliability and survivability. I take everything into account when I think about what my aircraft choice would be. Even the appearance of the Corsair lends itself to survivability. Mustangs were often mistaken for 109s and other aircraft but the gull wing made the Corsair unique and is the only reason I chose it over the Hellcat which had a much better score card than any of them.
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During the end of hostilities in Europe the P47M came into play.
Since I believe only 67 Tas' saw service I would hope that the M model P47 will be added to the MA inventory at some time.
Until that time comes.....many aircraft from History that were widely used during WWII in the earlier years need added to make our
Scenario more fun and immersing.
The list is long.
He111, Do17, Ki43 etc. I feel these crafts and the like should be added first. This of course for the virtual reality of our Scenarios.
Right now we a limited, and can't cover the scope of the WWII air war because of the lack of original aircraft.
Aces High will have better larger events when these aircraft are added to the Aces High inventory.
We are here for virtual reality. Specially in Scenarios. That's what draws us to them.
Let's get the early war aircraft added as soon as possible!
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Maj, 2points
1) A Ferrari in the hands of a 12 year old is still in the hands of a 12 year old regardless of the capabilities of the Vehicle. My understanding was that many of those pilots in the mission that took the P51D did not perform well because they either did not follow mission orders or did not know how to utilize the capabilities of their AC as well as those that flew the P47's in the mission, which by the way did follow mission doctrine and were very familliar with their AC. IMHO I dont think the results of this online Mission corellate well at all with historical reality due to the factors I mentioned.
2) IIRC the P47 was not the AC of choice for long range strategic bombing missions due to lack of operational combat range. It may have been the "Terror of the Skies" over France but not over Germany escorting strategic bombing missions until the last months of the war. I am pretty sure that the distances flown in AHII even in the largest arena do not approximate those flown in historical missions launched from bases in the UK to targets in Germany during WWII.
Based on these 2 points I dont agree completely with your post. However I do agree that pretty much any AC in the hands of a pilot that is very familliar with its capabilities and can utilize them will fare much better against an opponent in a vastly superior AC that does not know that AC well nor is able to utilize it.
Just my thoughts.
Later,
KayBay
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No single aircraft, or even air force, won the air war in Europe. <edit for clarification> The claims that one aircraft did it all are just idiotic.
The Mustang is great is because it was the first fighter that could escort the heavy bombers to target and back. Before that, the enemy fighters could just wait outside of fighter cover range for the buffs to come in. From a pure fighter standpoint, it wasn't necessarily the best, but the enemy had to deal with them before getting to the buffs, something no other fighter before it could do.
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In terms of the game the p47 is a much better all around aircraft.
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In-game, at typical MA altitudes, the N can perform about as well as the Pony...for five minutes. The others can't even do that. Jug is an E-fighter compared to most planes. Pony is an E-fighter compared to most planes. Pony can build energy quicker and sustain it longer though.
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I know alot of pilot's go on what they see, view, and heard about on TV about the WW2 planes. But as far as the P51D goes compared to the P47D in sheer terms of versatility wouldn't you think the obvious choice would be the Jug?
A perfect example was this past MoM rook raid. There were over 40 P51D escorts compared to 15-25 P47Ds. Everyone was briefed that we were escorting 2 bomber wings to target and enemy opposition was highly expected at altitudes exceeding 25k. Majority of the P51D pilots from reports from the AAR proved that the P51Ds sustained little over 50% more casualties than the P47s and we had nearly a 50% differential in total airplane force.
Now i know the P51D is advertised as the "best" American Escort fighter of WW2. I'm not going to denounce the P51 because it's a truly amazing aircraft but at those altitudes the obvious choice was infact the P47. The P47 has 33% more firepower than the P51D, more than enough to do your fair share of shooting at those alts and still have ammo left over. Better high alt performance than a P51D above 25k and is on just about equal terms with the P51D at 15-20k. Better armor that helps out against taking a few shells without having to bail out away from the mission. And Is not Prone To Radiator damage like the P51D.
Just my $0.02 cents. :eek:
the pony got the credit in rl, i think, A)because it was the first fightr to go ll the way to berlin with the bombers, and B) because it's pretty.
the jug, i recall being told by a fighter pilot that was in our r/c club(he flew both. all were named "dottie" for his wife), that the 47 was much more durable than the pony.
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No single aircraft, or even air force, won the air war in Europe. <edit for clarification> The claims that one aircraft did it all are just idiotic.
i think the 8th air force was a MAJOR contributer to the winning of the war though. if i recall, they never ever refused a mission, or allowed themselves to be forced to turn back. even in the face of severe, and unacceptable losses, they always got their missions done.
true heros they all were/are.
<<S>> :salute
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This is a good one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGm5ZobgpBw&feature=related
hows about this one?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhreZIk07pI&feature=related
pay attention to the music too :D
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Strange... I could be wrong, but I don't think I can remember reading a of a single instance where a fighter pilot who had been flying a JUG was transitioned to a Pony and then complained about it.
Just saying...
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In-game, at typical MA altitudes, the N can perform about as well as the Pony...for five minutes. The others can't even do that. Jug is an E-fighter compared to most planes. Pony is an E-fighter compared to most planes. Pony can build energy quicker and sustain it longer though.
Jug accelerates as well as a pony.
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Jug accelerates as well as a pony.
The N Jug does, not the D.
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Smacks every last one of ya that claims 51s were the first Allied fighters over Berlin.
Jack Jenkins and the 38Js of the 55th FG claimed that distinction on March 3, 1944.
And I really wish folks would do just a little bit of reading before they throw every last History Channel 'fact' they can find.
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I dont like the Thunderbolt and I would take a P51D even if it performed worse in AH then it does. I will stubbornly insist that it has been undermodelled whether I have any evidence of it or not and I will never accept your opinion to the contrary. ;)
Corsairs arent airplanes their UFOs/helicopters and yet we shoot them down regularly.
I believe they results of your 'experiment' online has to do with the experience level of your P51 pilots and not much more.
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I took a pony up because that's what I fly the most, know the best and be the most good to the mission. Oh, and every kill I got (including AKdream in a P47), was a plane that performs better at that altitude than mine. Sometimes it's not always about how the plane flys, but how the plane is flown. Fighting @ 25K in anything is a whole different ball game than fighting @ 5000 feet.
It'd be my guess that many in the P-51 flight had never fought at that alt before. Because the P-51 performs better then the P-47 down low, they made the assumption that it would at those heights.
From a couple of the films I've seen already situational awareness and target fixation were a problem for some in the pony flight. Command of the pony flight was pretty lax also. All these factors IMO is what caused the high death rates for our mission pony pilots.
I kept my eye on one guy I know is a regular pony pilot (forker) and he did very well. I don't know how he ended up, but when I had to rtb for fuel he had a couple of kills and was still going.
It was a great mission and I'm still learning from it and training for the next one. Some 38s in the next one would be icing on the cake. :D :salute
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Some 38s in the next one would be icing on the cake. :D :salute
Interesting you mention that, the biggest group of several P38 squads is discussing the possibility of offering to escort next run.
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that would be awesome......gitter doneeeeeeeee :lol
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No single aircraft, or even air force, won the air war in Europe. <edit for clarification> The claims that one aircraft did it all are just idiotic.
The RAF certainly kicked the Luftwaffer`s arse in 1940
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I know alot of pilot's go on what they see, view, and heard about on TV about the WW2 planes...
The one and only reason those shows are broadcast is to SELL ADVERTISING. That's all. An old friend of mine worked for many years at the History Channel main office in NYC. That type of series is cobbled together just as cheaply as possible. Fact-checking is a very low priority, and accorded a negligible budget.
BTW, "the suits" just hated it whenever anyone called it "the Hitler Channel". So of course, everyone who worked there always did. :lol
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The RAF certainly kicked the Luftwaffer`s arse in 1940
the RAF isn't a single airplane. they also(i think) bareley survived at first.
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BTW, "the suits" just hated it whenever anyone called it "the Hitler Channel". So of course, everyone who worked there always did. :lol
that's what i used to call it too, but now it's more like "The How does this Relate to History Channel." To be fair, their initial programming was WW2 focused, that changed when some chick took the reins of the parent company.
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Why i edited my original post - didn't want to imply that i was calling you an idiot, guess i failed even with the edit.
I was just saying how stupid the argument is that one single plane won the war. With the Battle of Britain it is always the Spitfire, over Europe it is always the P-51 or B-17. All of which simply are not true.
You seem to need the littlest things explained to you. Or else others are named "stupid" or "Idiotic", a theme I see to often in your posts.
Ive been studying WW-2 since I was able to read. But I guess with you I have to be literal.
The RAF saved Britain in the BOB. They didn't defeat Nazi Germany, tho I would give them credit for saving Democracy in a large part. Its true they also took part in the strategic and Tactical air offensive against German forces in Europe starting in 1943. The British had a world class aircraft industry. But the vast majority of this offensive was conducted by the US Army Air Corp.
Of which two main escort and tactical attack Jabos emerged, the P-51 mustang and the P-47. Of the two the P-47 did the Lions share of damage to the German war machine. Both in ATA engagements, bomber escort, and more importantly tactical ground strikes against the German war machine. So in essence I was saying the P-47 won the war more then the P-51 did. Dont forget the Luftwaffe, and its supporting infrastructure, was in large part destroyed while it was still on the ground. And dont forget, design changes in the P-47s gave them the long range escort ability the Mustangs had at about the same time in the air war.
By the last year of the war American fighter aircraft were simply loosed against the Luftwaffe and its infrastructure anywhere it could be found. Aircraft, air fields, training areas. No fighter excelled at all of this as much as the 47. In fact both the highest killing ace, and squadron with the most kills, flew P-47s. P-47s had a kill ratio of almost 8 to 1 in Europe. And then add in all the Holy Hell it raised as a ground attack Jabo.
So I'll say again. No other fighter or Jabo on the Allied side could hold "war winning title" more then the P-47.
Of course the P-47 didn't "win the war all alone", nor did America. I'm not talking to a kindergarten class and didn't feel I needed to point that out earlier and assumed others could figure out I was talking P-47 vs P-51, tho I guess with one or two I needed to.
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:furious............Who gives a toejam!!!!!..................jug this..........pony that.....................you want to make it interesting, lets fly F6F's as escorts and up about 25 or 30 of them heavy with fuel and DT off a carrier.............. :noid
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The N Jug does, not the D.
Yep. And once again, only for five minutes.
The P-51D can cruise on MIL at 10K is in the neighborhood of 40mph faster than the P-47N on MIL. It is slightly faster at that alt than an N on WEP. Practically the same speed as a D9 on WEP also. So even if the AHII Pony has a couple of problems, it has a very big historic advantage...it is likely to be fast relative the opposition when the encounter begins.
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I know alot of pilot's go on what they see, view, and heard about on TV about the WW2 planes. But as far as the P51D goes compared to the P47D in sheer terms of versatility wouldn't you think the obvious choice would be the Jug?
A perfect example was this past MoM rook raid. There were over 40 P51D escorts compared to 15-25 P47Ds. Everyone was briefed that we were escorting 2 bomber wings to target and enemy opposition was highly expected at altitudes exceeding 25k. Majority of the P51D pilots from reports from the AAR proved that the P51Ds sustained little over 50% more casualties than the P47s and we had nearly a 50% differential in total airplane force.
Now i know the P51D is advertised as the "best" American Escort fighter of WW2. I'm not going to denounce the P51 because it's a truly amazing aircraft but at those altitudes the obvious choice was infact the P47. The P47 has 33% more firepower than the P51D, more than enough to do your fair share of shooting at those alts and still have ammo left over. Better high alt performance than a P51D above 25k and is on just about equal terms with the P51D at 15-20k. Better armor that helps out against taking a few shells without having to bail out away from the mission. And Is not Prone To Radiator damage like the P51D.
Just my $0.02 cents. :eek:
I do know that you guys don't have any air to air fighting experience, you don;t have any training on how to fight, no training on how to properly escort bombers, no military trained leaders that know what to do, no obligation to follow orders etc etc etc. The same also applied to your enemy. I am talking about real life BTW.
Soooooooo, really, this is a game that does not have real P51s or real Jugs. You cannot come to any conclusions about real life airplanes based on random events and actions by random people playing a game where going home alive means nothing.
Not saying that 51 is better than the Jug or the other way around. Just saying, well, WTF??? :rofl
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I hate to break it to y'all who are arguing about which American aircraft did more to defeat Germany: the answer is the Yak and the Il-2. ;)
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Yep. And once again, only for five minutes.
The P-51D can cruise on MIL at 10K is in the neighborhood of 40mph faster than the P-47N on MIL. It is slightly faster at that alt than an N on WEP. Practically the same speed as a D9 on WEP also. So even if the AHII Pony has a couple of problems, it has a very big historic advantage...it is likely to be fast relative the opposition when the encounter begins.
This is misleading since the pony at mil and at WEP are about the same speed at 10k. You could have just as easily said the N and the pony are about as fast with both on wep at 10k.
Are you going to get the N pilots to lay off WEP in the MA, during a fight?
We were talking about acceleration and you said "only for 5 minutes". This is pointless since acceleration does not take that long.
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This is misleading since the pony at mil and at WEP are about the same speed at 10k. You could have just as easily said the N and the pony are about as fast with both on wep at 10k.
Are you going to get the N pilots to lay off WEP in the MA, during a fight?
We were talking about acceleration and you said "only for 5 minutes". This is pointless since acceleration does not take that long.
I'm saying that if a Pony that has been cruising meets co-alt Jug who has been cruising awhile, it'll have a large initial speed advantage. WEP on the P-47N is a constant head scratcher...you don't perform all that great at low altitudes compared to most MA stuff without it, and 5 minutes isn't all that long. You can easily expend half of your WEP in one fight, chase, or extension, and it doesn't cool back down into the yellow arc as quickly as a D9.
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Smacks every last one of ya that claims 51s were the first Allied fighters over Berlin.
Jack Jenkins and the 38Js of the 55th FG claimed that distinction on March 3, 1944.
And I really wish folks would do just a little bit of reading before they throw every last History Channel 'fact' they can find.
I know the P-38 was the first allied fighter over Berlin, however I believe when they got there they weren't as effective as they could of been due to the weathered pilots flying them. I should look up where I heard/read this, but didn't the fighter pilots who flew over Berlin in P-38Js need to be thawed out of their cockpits afterwards due to the extreme cold tempuratures they endured during the very long flight (an exageration, but they were damn cold and angry about it)? I know the P51 was loved by the bomber escort pilots because the engine right infront of the pilot provided a heat source to keep the pilots warm(er) the whole flight.
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I know the P-38 was the first allied fighter over Berlin, however I believe when they got there they weren't as effective as they could of been due to the weathered pilots flying them. I should look up where I heard/read this, but didn't the fighter pilots who flew over Berlin in P-38Js need to be thawed out of their cockpits afterwards due to the extreme cold tempuratures they endured during the very long flight (an exageration, but they were damn cold and angry about it)? I know the P51 was loved by the bomber escort pilots because the engine right infront of the pilot provided a heat source to keep the pilots warm(er) the whole flight.
Well lets see. The Mustangs got there on March 4th the first time. Don Blakeslee and the 4th took off with 48 Mustangs. 1/2 aborted with engine problems of one kind or another. Blakeslee's guns froze so he couldn't shoot. Windscreen's iced over. They weren't particularly effective either.
It was a tough run no matter what you flew. All of the birds had problems facing them, that we never face in AH. When is the last time your motor mount bolts on your 51 failed on the way to a target? Have your guns frozen over yet? Have the plugs fouled on your Merlin leaving you with a dead engine over enemy territory?
Again this is where I wish folks would do a little actual research before making broad generalized statements about this kind of stuff in AH.
The 8th bombers could have had escorts going all the way from the time they got there. But they managed to ship their first three P38 groups to North Africa. The 54th FS in the Aleutians, far worse weather then the lousy English weather, and colder, proved they could keep their 38Es in the air for 11 hours + and this was in 1942. And yeah it was cold, but if the job needed to be done....
P47s came to the ETO without any provision for drop tanks, even though planes had been carrying them as routine for a long time prior. By the time all was said and done, the Jug was lugging three 108 gallon tanks if needed and ranging all over Germany too.
Look into the politics that played into the 38s going to North Africa and the Jugs coming ill equipped. The bomber guys were convinced they could go it alone and wanted to prove it. They were proven wrong. A lot of bomber guys lost their lives to find this out.
I love the Mustang and it's history. I'll stack my 4th FG library up against anyones, and my 51 group history collection too. But to claim it was the be all end all of fighter planes is just silly. Keep in mind it was cheaper to produce then the 38 and Jug too I believe.
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Well lets see. The Mustangs got there on March 4th the first time. Don Blakeslee and the 4th took off with 48 Mustangs. 1/2 aborted with engine problems of one kind or another. Blakeslee's guns froze so he couldn't shoot. Windscreen's iced over. They weren't particularly effective either.
It was a tough run no matter what you flew. All of the birds had problems facing them, that we never face in AH. When is the last time your motor mount bolts on your 51 failed on the way to a target? Have your guns frozen over yet? Have the plugs fouled on your Merlin leaving you with a dead engine over enemy territory?
Again this is where I wish folks would do a little actual research before making broad generalized statements about this kind of stuff in AH.
The 8th bombers could have had escorts going all the way from the time they got there. But they managed to ship their first three P38 groups to North Africa. The 54th FS in the Aleutians, far worse weather then the lousy English weather, and colder, proved they could keep their 38Es in the air for 11 hours + and this was in 1942. And yeah it was cold, but if the job needed to be done....
P47s came to the ETO without any provision for drop tanks, even though planes had been carrying them as routine for a long time prior. By the time all was said and done, the Jug was lugging three 108 gallon tanks if needed and ranging all over Germany too.
Look into the politics that played into the 38s going to North Africa and the Jugs coming ill equipped. The bomber guys were convinced they could go it alone and wanted to prove it. They were proven wrong. A lot of bomber guys lost their lives to find this out.
I love the Mustang and it's history. I'll stack my 4th FG library up against anyones, and my 51 group history collection too. But to claim it was the be all end all of fighter planes is just silly. Keep in mind it was cheaper to produce then the 38 and Jug too I believe.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not one of those who thinks the 51 was beter than all planes or even most of that era, I was just under the impression that the 38 drivers were miserable in the cold weather compared to the 51's, which provided a little more compfort. And I knew the 51s first entered combat with problems, but not on the scale (50%) of what the 4th had on their first flight with the 51s as you described. Now I'm curious about it too (how many were from problems they never knew about during the plane's development, how many were ground-crew errors, etc.). A 50% mechanical failure before they even reached combat is something I don't think I've ever heard of for any plane, and honestly there must of been some good reasons for it, otherwise I doubt any pilot would willingly want to fly one into combat after that word got around.
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The Mustang is great is because it was the first fighter that could escort the heavy bombers to target and back. Before that, the enemy fighters could just wait outside of fighter cover range for the buffs to come in.
Both the P-47 and the P-38 were able to escort bombers from England to Germany and back. The first Allied fighter over Berlin was a P-38.
ack-ack
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i think the 8th air force was a MAJOR contributer to the winning of the war though.
The 8th was also a major contributor to some of the major screw ups of the air war.
ack-ack
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The RAF certainly kicked the Luftwaffer`s arse in 1940
The Luftwaffe is just as much to blame in their failure to win the battle as the RAF are for winning it. The Luftwaffe's strategic and tactical planning prior to the BoB and during the battle helped create conditions that led to the defeat of the Luftwaffe during the BoB.
ack-ack
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Don't get me wrong, I'm not one of those who thinks the 51 was beter than all planes or even most of that era, I was just under the impression that the 38 drivers were miserable in the cold weather compared to the 51's, which provided a little more compfort. And I knew the 51s first entered combat with problems, but not on the scale (50%) of what the 4th had on their first flight with the 51s as you described. Now I'm curious about it too (how many were from problems they never knew about during the plane's development, how many were ground-crew errors, etc.). A 50% mechanical failure before they even reached combat is something I don't think I've ever heard of for any plane, and honestly there must of been some good reasons for it, otherwise I doubt any pilot would willingly want to fly one into combat after that word got around.
As with any weapons system in wartime in particular, they can get rushed into combat to try and fill a need. What flies really well in the skies of sunny California, had to adjust to the European weather, different fuels, spark plugs, ground crews learning on the fly, pilots learning on the fly etc.
I'll use an example with the P38. One of my favorite Groups is the 474th FG. The 428th FS history is very detailed. The got to England in early 44 and on March 24, 1944 got 25 new P38s assigned to the squadron. 21 J-10s, two J-5s and a single J-15. The aircraft were grounded immediately to await combat modifications including outboard wing tanks, bomb racks etc.
Now this is an airplane that's already been in combat in the ETO, yet these particular birds aren't ready. Fast forward to April 15, 1944. The squadron still hasn't flown their 38s. Some pilots were sent TDY to other 38 groups to get some operational time. Now the word comes down to change every engine on all 25 38s. They'd been delivered with defects. Many of the ground crews had never done this before. It's April 24, 1944 when they finally fly their first operational mission. This is a month after getting the 38s and with the airwar raging.
Now look at the 51s of the 4th. They took them into combat with all kinds of mechanical faults and a lot of pilots were lost due to this. The Mustangs were grounded for a few days to try and rectify the problems that included. Rough engines, glycol leaks, throwing oil, auxilary fuel tank feed problems, gun and electrical system failures, wing and motor mount bolt failures etc.
On those stand down days, all the wing bolts were replaced on the 4th Mustangs. North American had to rush 250 sets of motor mount bolts to England as well. Propellars were in short supply and those shipped to England were stripped and useless. Engines were in short supply. Getting half a squadron airborne was typical. More then that a miracle for a while.
The real deal just wasn't as simple as us getting a new bird and flying in AH :)
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well the spitfire and the mustang were the only planes to shoot down germany's 262's
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well the spitfire and the mustang were the only planes to shoot down germany's 262's
According to who?
JB Wray got two 262s in a Tempest. Two 439 squadron Tiffie pilots shared a 262. Nowotny went down to a Jug if memory serves. Art Jeffrey was credited with a 163 in a P38. Me thinks you should do a bit of digging before making claims like that.
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Corky is totally correct here, Typhies/Tempest flyers had a little success against the 262 and also bagged three AR234s including one by all time Tempest ace Dave Fairbanks that was at first mistook for a 262 :aok
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People are going to have to bone up on their research if you're going to out fact check Dan. :)
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Add the La-7 to the list of fighters that shot down a 262.
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Keep in mind it was cheaper to produce then the 38 and Jug too I believe.
and again!!
More then that a miracle for a while.
must... not... submittotheurgetoragondanyeta gainforthatdamnthenthanissuet hingy.
fail :huh
:aok
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Ive been studying WW-2 since I was able to read. But I guess with you I have to be literal.
The RAF saved Britain in the BOB. They didn't defeat Nazi Germany, tho I would give them credit for saving Democracy in a large part. Its true they also took part in the strategic and Tactical air offensive against German forces in Europe starting in 1943. The British had a world class aircraft industry. But the vast majority of this offensive was conducted by the US Army Air Corp.
Of which two main escort and tactical attack Jabos emerged, the P-51 mustang and the P-47. Of the two the P-47 did the Lions share of damage to the German war machine. Both in ATA engagements, bomber escort, and more importantly tactical ground strikes against the German war machine. So in essence I was saying the P-47 won the war more then the P-51 did. Dont forget the Luftwaffe, and its supporting infrastructure, was in large part destroyed while it was still on the ground. And dont forget, design changes in the P-47s gave them the long range escort ability the Mustangs had at about the same time in the air war.
By the last year of the war American fighter aircraft were simply loosed against the Luftwaffe and its infrastructure anywhere it could be found. Aircraft, air fields, training areas. No fighter excelled at all of this as much as the 47. In fact both the highest killing ace, and squadron with the most kills, flew P-47s. P-47s had a kill ratio of almost 8 to 1 in Europe. And then add in all the Holy Hell it raised as a ground attack Jabo.
So I'll say again. No other fighter or Jabo on the Allied side could hold "war winning title" more then the P-47.
Of course the P-47 didn't "win the war all alone", nor did America. I'm not talking to a kindergarten class and didn't feel I needed to point that out earlier and assumed others could figure out I was talking P-47 vs P-51, tho I guess with one or two I needed to.
... as if the war on the Eastern borders of the Reich, which began fully two years before the largest American bomber streams started flying over European skies, was a nice tea party amongst ground hugging grunts.
Soviet aircraft were pitted against the cream of the Reich's most powerful land AND aerial resources before the first P-47 even saw ETO for the first time, which by 1943, after the restructuring of the VVS, refused to stay a cannon fodder, and became something to fear even for the best of Luftwaffe personnel.
None of them ever got the glory spotlight as the P-47 or the P-51, but you can be sure their contribution as an aerial power striking against Nazi Germany wasn't anything less than any P-47 or P-51 - perhaps, even more. None of the VVS had any "range" issues in the first place, since the frontline was smack in front of their home fields where they were flying out of.
So whenever we feel the need to tie the word 'contribution' with the word 'Allies', let's try not to forget the war on the Eastern front.
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Jugs win the title of WAR WINNER on the western front easily. There were just more of them vs. their JABO multi/role contemporaries. (not to take away from a beautiful aircraft and her heroic pilots) But numbers count.
Take another famous JABO contestant, the uber sexy Hawker Typhoon. ( fact checking welcome here ) I think there were only like 3300 of them operational vs a massive force of somethin like 16000 Jugs. ( this is a round figure here of course not all these aircraft probably even flew ) Who's gonna do more damage? Who's your juggy daddy? :) I've seen alot of people say if it was necessary the Thunderbolt could have won the ETO air war by itself.
Also in terms of the BOB Ak ak hits the nail on the head, the Germans screwed themselves in multiple ways: fuel economy and time on station of the 109s fighting further from their bases being just one of the major downfalls of their campaign. (aww man that's huge) Mix this with some rediculously heroic flying by the British pilots and Hitler was doomed from the start.
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) Who's gonna do more damage? Who's your juggy daddy? :) I've seen alot of people say if it was necessary the Thunderbolt could have won the ETO air war by itself.
Also in terms of the BOB Ak ak hits the nail on the head, the Germans screwed themselves in multiple ways: fuel economy and time on station of the 109s fighting further from their bases being just one of the major downfalls of their campaign. (aww man that's huge) Mix this with some rediculously heroic flying by the British pilots and Hitler was doomed from the start.
The irony if the BoB is that the pretty much the same tactical mistakes the Germans made during the battle, the RAF repeated during the Circus raids on main land Europe and repeated again over Dieppe.
ack-ack
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You seem to need the littlest things explained to you. Or else others are named "stupid" or "Idiotic", a theme I see to often in your posts.
Ive been studying WW-2 since I was able to read. But I guess with you I have to be literal.
The RAF saved Britain in the BOB. They didn't defeat Nazi Germany, tho I would give them credit for saving Democracy in a large part. Its true they also took part in the strategic and Tactical air offensive against German forces in Europe starting in 1943. The British had a world class aircraft industry. But the vast majority of this offensive was conducted by the US Army Air Corp.
Of which two main escort and tactical attack Jabos emerged, the P-51 mustang and the P-47. Of the two the P-47 did the Lions share of damage to the German war machine. Both in ATA engagements, bomber escort, and more importantly tactical ground strikes against the German war machine. So in essence I was saying the P-47 won the war more then the P-51 did. Dont forget the Luftwaffe, and its supporting infrastructure, was in large part destroyed while it was still on the ground. And dont forget, design changes in the P-47s gave them the long range escort ability the Mustangs had at about the same time in the air war.
By the last year of the war American fighter aircraft were simply loosed against the Luftwaffe and its infrastructure anywhere it could be found. Aircraft, air fields, training areas. No fighter excelled at all of this as much as the 47. In fact both the highest killing ace, and squadron with the most kills, flew P-47s. P-47s had a kill ratio of almost 8 to 1 in Europe. And then add in all the Holy Hell it raised as a ground attack Jabo.
So I'll say again. No other fighter or Jabo on the Allied side could hold "war winning title" more then the P-47.
Of course the P-47 didn't "win the war all alone", nor did America. I'm not talking to a kindergarten class and didn't feel I needed to point that out earlier and assumed others could figure out I was talking P-47 vs P-51, tho I guess with one or two I needed to.
I was speaking generally, not to you specifically. Sorry - i wish i had made it more clear to save you the emotional distress clearly suffered to make you type the above post.
You do not need to lecture me on the history of the air war.
I was simply commenting on this statement: -
It was the P-47 that won the air war in Europe not the Mustang.
And i must admit. Such statements do irritate me <S>
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I took a pony up because that's what I fly the most, know the best and be the most good to the mission. Oh, and every kill I got (including AKdream in a P47), was a plane that performs better at that altitude than mine.
Sorry, but I have to take exception to this. My engine was out after the first merge. Me trying to maneuver with no engine and crashing into the ground doesn't exactly compare airplane performance.
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I'll just throw this in there: I love my pony, but it nor the Jug won the war, it was that poor crunchie on the ground. Those of you that know, remember this is coming from a 19K and a 12 series.
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Sorry, but I have to take exception to this. My engine was out after the first merge. Me trying to maneuver with no engine and crashing into the ground doesn't exactly compare airplane performance.
:salute fair enough. I was awarded the kill several minutes later and quite frankly was surprized. I apologize and meant no disrespect in my orginial post. :salute
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:salute fair enough. I was awarded the kill several minutes later and quite frankly was surprized. I apologize and meant no disrespect in my orginial post. :salute
:salute Actually, I need to apologize myself. I assumed the P-51 I was dueling with when my engine died and I crashed was you. The film says you were the one who gave me the oil leak in the first place, when I was in the middle of a bunch of bad guys, at about 14k. It was about a 90 degree passing/deflection shot. I got at least 2 kills after that when I went to help Dogg on the deck. He was playing with 3 ponies and made the claim he needed help (he got shot down and I STILL don't believe he really needed help). I got 2 of them, then ran out of oil on the third one. You were the one that did all the damage to me, so you got the (legitimate) credit for the kill. It was a good shot on your part, but not indicative of what plane is better in this context.
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Add the La-7 to the list of fighters that shot down a 262.
I know of at least one case of a P-51 shooting down a 163. Anyone have stats on 163 kills?
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I re-read Hub Zemke's book this weekend. He of course mentioned that the 56th refused to trade in their Jugs for Mustangs, but actually seems to have considered it something of a mistake. "Failed to see the potential" of the P-51 were his words. He was of the opinion that the where the Jug was superior in performance above 25K and successfully bnz'ed the Luftwaffe to death, the P-51 had the performance edge over the 109s and 190s at all altitudes and was comparably maneuverable. He also felt like the P-51's range was a big help and towards the end of the war the P-51 squadrons were starting to get more kills than the Jug squadrons because they could range farther and longer.
So, once again, nothing against the Jug, my favorite U.S. airplane, but from the horse's mouth, the P-51 was an improvement in long-range escort and dogfighter role.
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A D-40 with 50% + center line drop (plenty of fuel for 90% of MA type activity) and the small 8 gun pack (still over 2,000 rounds) climbs at 3,600 fpm..
better than the 51, better than the D25, or the N.
I never got into the N for 2 reasons..
1: 5 eny, being bish, I Have no intention of making my primary ride a plane that half the time I cant even fly.
2: the WEP... all it seem to do is get me in trouble... always seemed to run out at the WORST time,and since in the N it makes a such a HUGE difference, running out feels like getting dropped on your face. of course this is in no way a fault of the aircraft, but more a fault of my use of it... but of course that makes it no less of a factor (for me)
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A D-40 with 50% + center line drop (plenty of fuel for 90% of MA type activity) and the small 8 gun pack (still over 2,000 rounds) climbs at 3,600 fpm..
better than the 51, better than the D25, or the N.
I got ~2,500 fpm near sea level with that load out on MIL. That load out gave me 56 minutes according to the E6B. I took a P-51D up with 50% internal. That loadout gave me ~3,000 FPM on MIL and 51 minutes.
On WEP, I got ~3,300 FPM out of the Jug and ~3,400 FPM out of the Mustang.
Obviously the P-51 would be able to fly and fight for much longer AFTER any drop tanks were discarded, as important a consideration as pure range when loaded down with drops IMHO.
Huh, turns out that Hub was right about the climb rate of the Jug relative other planes. How remarkable.
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3,300 with he heavy gun pack, try the light 8 gun.
yea, the 51 climbs faster on mil, but thats not really an issue, they only time climb is an issue is if you are in a hurry to reach alt, in which case your going to use wep anyway, and the Jug climbs faster on wep than the pony.
and yea the pony will go farther, but again, not much of a factor.. you get close to an hour with the jug and that fuel load out, and if you cut rpms a tad when at cruise, that number increases by ALOT.. so range is a non issue.. (most of the time)
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3,300 with he heavy gun pack, try the light 8 gun.
yea, the 51 climbs faster on mil, but thats not really an issue, they only time climb is an issue is if you are in a hurry to reach alt, in which case your going to use wep anyway, and the Jug climbs faster on wep than the pony.
Nope, I just checked it, I used the 267rpg, centerline tank, and 50%.
*EDIT* I checked the climb rate of the P-47D-40 at 50% WITHOUT the tank. I got around 3,475.
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Nope, I just checked it, I used the 267rpg, centerline tank, and 50%.
*EDIT* I checked the climb rate of the P-47D-40 at 50% WITHOUT the tank. I got around 3,475.
thats odd, maybe I need to go back to "reading your climbrate 101" I fly the jug ALOT..
crap.. thanks, now its gonna FEEL like it climbs slower to me..
:mad:
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thats odd, maybe I need to go back to "reading your climbrate 101" I fly the jug ALOT..
crap.. thanks, now its gonna FEEL like it climbs slower to me..
:mad:
Although the P-51 out-climbs the Jug when loaded for comparable flight time, the P-47D-40 was surprisingly competitive.
I REALLY want to see a P-47M now. Or a D-11 with a paddle-blade prop (and hopefully cleared to pull 72" MAP as a perk option.)
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Although the P-51 out-climbs the Jug when loaded for comparable flight time, the P-47D-40 was surprisingly competitive.
I REALLY want to see a P-47M now. Or a D-11 with a paddle-blade prop (and hopefully cleared to pull 72" MAP as a perk option.)
Another good example of a bird that had teething troubles. I seem to recall that it took an engine change on just about every 47M in the 56th to keep the Mustang from coming to the 56th, and this was after Zemke left for the 479th
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Although the P-51 out-climbs the Jug when loaded for comparable flight time, the P-47D-40 was surprisingly competitive.
I REALLY want to see a P-47M now. Or a D-11 with a paddle-blade prop (and hopefully cleared to pull 72" MAP as a perk option.)
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,240792.0.html
:D
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... as if the war on the Eastern borders of the Reich, which began fully two years before the largest American bomber streams started flying over European skies, was a nice tea party amongst ground hugging grunts.
Soviet aircraft were pitted against the cream of the Reich's most powerful land AND aerial resources before the first P-47 even saw ETO for the first time, which by 1943, after the restructuring of the VVS, refused to stay a cannon fodder, and became something to fear even for the best of Luftwaffe personnel.
None of them ever got the glory spotlight as the P-47 or the P-51, but you can be sure their contribution as an aerial power striking against Nazi Germany wasn't anything less than any P-47 or P-51 - perhaps, even more. None of the VVS had any "range" issues in the first place, since the frontline was smack in front of their home fields where they were flying out of.
So whenever we feel the need to tie the word 'contribution' with the word 'Allies', let's try not to forget the war on the Eastern front.
I dont but two points. My frames of reference were P-47 vs P-51. Secondly the Soviet air force was almost strictly a tactical air force, and while yes they did engage a lot of talent of the Luftwaffe dont forget a great deal of talent was over the skies of Germany positioned against the bomber streams too, of whom Hitler took the destruction of German cities personal.
Another point. The easter front air war didn't ratchet up much before the strategic air war on the western front did. First off much of the Soviet air force was destroyed on the ground at the beginning of Barbarossa and the rest was destroyed in the air by the Luftwaffe. Soviet air craft industry then had to pretty much be picked up and carted east of the Urals where it did make a remarkable recovery. But thats for another thread.
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Well, you see, people like a Good Guy vs. Bad Guy match-up for the most part, so we like the Western front. :salute
Whereas Hitler vs. Stalin is more like watching "Celebrity Deathmatch" :lol
Of course, before I started playing AHII, I didn't know so many people were fascinated by the planes and pilots of the VVS. How else to explain so many La's? :t
And let us never forget, for Eastern Europe, Hitler vs. Stalin was like a rabbit watching wolf vs. bear-whoever wins, rabbit still loses! :(
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Well, you see, people like a Good Guy vs. Bad Guy match-up for the most part, so we like the Western front. :salute
Whereas Hitler vs. Stalin is more like watching "Celebrity Deathmatch" :lol
Of course, before I started playing AHII, I didn't know so many people were fascinated by the planes and pilots of the VVS. How else to explain so many La's? :t
And let us never forget, for Eastern Europe, Hitler vs. Stalin was like a rabbit watching wolf vs. bear-whoever wins, rabbit still loses! :(
What got you PnG'd so you have to come back with a new name BnZ?
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Bong: Apparently my sarcastic sig line about the new O'Club policy of not discussing politics, race, any of that fun stuff was derogatory and disrespectful.
From now on I shall confine myself to calling others tards, twits, and castrati over how they play the game, all will be fine. :aok
Anyway, my new BBS name matches my game name, which is a good thing. Now people can look up my score to throw in my face without coming up empty and thinking "SHADE!!!".
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I dont but two points. My frames of reference were P-47 vs P-51. Secondly the Soviet air force was almost strictly a tactical air force, and while yes they did engage a lot of talent of the Luftwaffe dont forget a great deal of talent was over the skies of Germany positioned against the bomber streams too, of whom Hitler took the destruction of German cities personal.
Another point. The easter front air war didn't ratchet up much before the strategic air war on the western front did. First off much of the Soviet air force was destroyed on the ground at the beginning of Barbarossa and the rest was destroyed in the air by the Luftwaffe. Soviet air craft industry then had to pretty much be picked up and carted east of the Urals where it did make a remarkable recovery. But thats for another thread.
Or is it? :D
We are taught otherwise in high school history class, but the country that destroyed most of the German army and airforce is the Soviet Union, not the USA. The numbers are indisputable. Moreover, German aircraft production peaked in 1944, right under the nose of Allied strategic bombing.
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According to who?
JB Wray got two 262s in a Tempest. Two 439 squadron Tiffie pilots shared a 262. Nowotny went down to a Jug if memory serves. Art Jeffrey was credited with a 163 in a P38. Me thinks you should do a bit of digging before making claims like that.
Ben Drew, Bob Winks, Chuck Yeager and many more shot down 262's in P-51's. Nowotny really wasn't shot down he had an engine flame out and performend a split s right into the ground. A P-51 driver was nearest to him and his name I forgot. He did say that he didn't get a shot off on him.
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Ben Drew, Bob Winks, Chuck Yeager and many more shot down 262's in P-51's. Nowotny really wasn't shot down he had an engine flame out and performend a split s right into the ground. A P-51 driver was nearest to him and his name I forgot. He did say that he didn't get a shot off on him.
No one is disagreeing that 51 drivers got jets. The claim that only 51s and Spits got them was inaccurate.
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Or is it? :D
We are taught otherwise in high school history class, but the country that destroyed most of the German army and airforce is the Soviet Union, not the USA. The numbers are indisputable. Moreover, German aircraft production peaked in 1944, right under the nose of Allied strategic bombing.
No, the Soviets destroyed the German Army. The USA and Brits destroyed the German Air Force.
You are right, the numbers are indisputable :). You need to look at the numbers again - all the numbers.
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
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Or is it? :D
We are taught otherwise in high school history class, but the country that destroyed most of the German army and airforce is the Soviet Union, not the USA. The numbers are indisputable. Moreover, German aircraft production peaked in 1944, right under the nose of Allied strategic bombing.
I really dont want to hijack the thread, as fascinating a topic as it is. My comments were directed to a narrow scope, as in P-47 vs P-51.
Ive said many times the "real war" was fought in the east. Things start getting foggy however when you say the "real air war" was fought in the east.
Even foggier is the subject of Strategic bombing the German war machine in WW-ll. We will never know exactly how effective it was or to what extent it limited German production. For instance? What would it have been like if we didn't send bombers against their industrial and other high value targets? What is known is the huge $$ they had to spend on the defense from the Allied strategic air Juggernaut, and the huge cost in lives of airmen and air crews. By the end of it their cities were in smoking ruins and the Luftwaffe was smashed. But, all this for another thread. Ive said to much already. :salute
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Ben Drew, Bob Winks, Chuck Yeager and many more shot down 262's in P-51's. Nowotny really wasn't shot down he had an engine flame out and performend a split s right into the ground. A P-51 driver was nearest to him and his name I forgot. He did say that he didn't get a shot off on him.
And just to keep the Jug drivers involved. Gunther Lutzow's 262 was shared by a pair of 365th FG P47s. Another P47 driver with the same group was credited with a 262 as well.
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No, the Soviets destroyed the German Army. The USA and Brits destroyed the German Air Force.
You are right, the numbers are indisputable :). You need to look at the numbers again - all the numbers.
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
Your claim is that the USAAF and RAF shot down more German aircraft than the VVS?
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Your claim is that the USAAF and RAF shot down more German aircraft than the VVS?
Here's a question - why am I the one having to defend my post :)? I'm not the one who claimed the VVS destroyed the Luftwaffe.
...But because I'm a nice guy I'll respond :D:
Well the destruction of the Luftwaffe was more involved than just destruction of german aircraft but if you want to base it on aircraft shot down then yes the USAAF and RAF shot down more than the VVS. And I wouldn't presume to claim anything :). The claims are losses from the Germans themselves as per the BA/MA RLM records.
(http://thetongsweb.net/images/lw-losses.jpg)
It's too much trouble to show you the actual data but here's a breakdown for the above to consider:- May-Dec 1940 are losses due to the RAF (Battle of France / Battle of Britain).
- The Eastern Front can be said to have chewed the majority of the losses from Jul 41 - Jun 42.
- From Jun 42 - Dec 42 on the Eastern Front accounted for roughly 48% of the losses while the MTO accounted for 52%.
- It's not even a question in 1943 with the Eastern Front accounting for 32% of the losses while the other 68% were due to the RAF & USAAF in the MTO and ETO.
- 1944 onward % of losses attributed to the USAAF and RAF is even more lopsided compared to the VVS.
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It's not even worth digging up numbers for Jul 44 -Mar 45. From the graph you don't even have to add up the numbers basis the %. Visual inspection is enough to demonstrate the point considering the % breakdowns.
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
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No one is disagreeing that 51 drivers got jets. The claim that only 51s and Spits got them was inaccurate.
My point being that by wars end there were only a few squadrons equipped with the P-47's. Most were regulated to transportation disruption and related fighter sweeps of airfields..
Little is known about a P-47 squadron that's sole purpose was to harass the civilians. All animals were shot, horses, dogs. Farmers were strafed in their fields civilians on the street were strafed. The planes were minus national markings as well.
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Here's a question - why am I the one having to defend my post :)? I'm not the one who claimed the VVS destroyed the Luftwaffe.
Crap, so I did. ;) But I didn't ask you to defend it, I just asked you what your position was.
...But because I'm a nice guy I'll respond :D:
Well the destruction of the Luftwaffe was more involved than just destruction of german aircraft but if you want to base it on aircraft shot down then yes the USAAF and RAF shot down more than the VVS. And I wouldn't presume to claim anything :). The claims are losses from the Germans themselves as per the BA/MA RLM records.
(http://thetongsweb.net/images/lw-losses.jpg)
It's too much trouble to show you the actual data but here's a breakdown for the above to consider:- May-Dec 1940 are losses due to the RAF (Battle of France / Battle of Britain).
- The Eastern Front can be said to have chewed the majority of the losses from Jul 41 - Jun 42.
- From Jun 42 - Dec 42 on the Eastern Front accounted for roughly 48% of the losses while the MTO accounted for 52%.
- It's not even a question in 1943 with the Eastern Front accounting for 32% of the losses while the other 68% were due to the RAF & USAAF in the MTO and ETO.
- 1944 onward % of losses attributed to the USAAF and RAF is even more lopsided compared to the VVS.
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It's not even worth digging up numbers for Jul 44 -Mar 45. From the graph you don't even have to add up the numbers basis the %. Visual inspection is enough to demonstrate the point considering the % breakdowns.
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
Your chart just shows losses. It doesn't show anything about where the aircraft were lost. But I'm inclined to believe you because you've been very knowledgeable about other stuff in the past.
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My point being that by wars end there were only a few squadrons equipped with the P-47's. Most were regulated to transportation disruption and related fighter sweeps of airfields..
This may be true if you're looking at just the 8th AF. But it's not when you consider the 9th, 12th, and 15th Air Forces.
That's also not considering the disposition in the of the air war against Japan.
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
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BigPlay -
Source?
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Your chart just shows losses. It doesn't show anything about where the aircraft were lost. But I'm inclined to believe you because you've been very knowledgeable about other stuff in the past.
Yes, but I broke down where the losses occured for you in my bullet points which comes from further details that chart was built from. It was just too much trouble for me to cobble all that stuff to together so I just listed it out in text for you :).
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
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BigPlay -
Source?
So why is it that it's always the other guy that has to produce the source??? Shouldn't you have provided a source first? ;)
...but if you insist, there are many sources for the info. For starters though you could check here:
http://afhra.maxwell.af.mil/aafsd/aafsd_pdf/t088.pdf (http://afhra.maxwell.af.mil/aafsd/aafsd_pdf/t088.pdf)
This is Table 89 - Airplanes on Hand in Theaters vs. Germany, By Type and Principal Model: Jun 1942 to Aug 1945. It comes from the official USAAF Statistical Digest.
For instance in May 45 it lists that the USAAF had on hand against Germany at:
2,292 P-47's
2,427 P-51's
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
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This may be true if you're looking at just the 8th AF.
Yep, same thing with the P-38s that were with the 8th AAF. It's what happens when the 8th High Command has a bomber pilot's mentality.
But it's not when you consider the 9th, 12th, and 15th Air Forces.
Same with the P-38. P-38s in those AAF units kept the Lightning in the fighter role as well as ground pounding duties long after the 8th gave theirs up.
ack-ack
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I hate to break it to y'all who are arguing about which American aircraft did more to defeat Germany: the answer is the Yak and the Il-2. ;)
Actually the aircraft loses were equal in relation to Eastern and Western front campains. However 80% of the German ground forces were destroyed by the Soviets. I also doubt that the IL2 had any significant areal victories to speak of. Another thing to consider is that it was the British and Americans that were putting pressure on German production lines and distribution of troop and material to the Eastern front that helped the Russians considerably. The brunt of all German forces with exception of it's navy were at the Eastern front. So it would be logical that the majority of Germany's loses came from an area that had most of it's forces at. The Russian's were responsible for the demise of the majority of German forces but to state that they were the biggest factor in the out come of WW2 is a farce. The Germans would have made short work of Russia if not for the British and American contributions on the Western front. Russia just happened to have more expendable resources that caused the attrition of German's armed forces. I seriously doubt that the remaining Allies would have had the stomach to suffer the kind of loses that Russian did.
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The Russian's were responsible for the demise of the majority of German forces but to state that they were the biggest factor in the out come of WW2 is a farce.
This is an interesting sentence. On the one hand agreeing that Russia destroyed the majority of German forces and on the other denying that they did the most to defeat Germany. I don't think it's a contradiction, but there is tension there. Let's start a new topic in the O'Club.
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I was more looking for a source to this statement:
Little is known about a P-47 squadron that's sole purpose was to harass the civilians. All animals were shot, horses, dogs. Farmers were strafed in their fields civilians on the street were strafed. The planes were minus national markings as well.
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I was more looking for a source to this statement:
Ah, I understand. I had you confused with bigplay :). My apologies. Personally I have the same question.
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
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We were talking about which aircraft contributed the most to the demise of Germany. You said the Yak and IL2. I did state that the Russians did destroy most of the ground forces but only managed to destroy around 50% of German aircraft. Considering that most of the Luftwaffe was stationed against the Russians you would think the % would have been higher. I would think that the B-17 and the B24 had to do more to winning the war than any other aircraft.
The airwar in Russia was more of a tactical airwar. Mainly in support of battlefield conflicts. The American's involvement was more strategical and struck at the core of the German war machine. Stopping ones ability to wage war is more important than winning battles. Besides...... if you consider what Russia lost in terms of man and machine then I believe the Germans gave the Russians a trouncing. So what I guess I'm saying here is I do not believe that the Yak or IL2 did little more for the overall war effort than to help win battles.
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I was more looking for a source to this statement:
I sat in on a symposium conducted by Urban (Ben) Drew. He flew with the *th in P-51's and believe he commanded a squadron. He indicated that there was such a squadron that he had first hand knowledge of it . My mother was a kid in Germany during WW2 and she also said American fighter planes shot up all the cattle, horses even dogs, people were strafed on the streets. They thought that in killing every living animal that they would assist in starving Germany, which it did.
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Can you provide any documentation other than "so I heard"?
I have no doubt civilians and animals were strafed. I would question if civilians were targeted specifically as matter of dictated policy/tactics, particularly since the "no markings" aircraft piece was thrown in.
I of course could be wrong, it was a different era. But I would like to some some independent corroborating evidence.
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Ben Drew may have written a book that included what I mentioned. He is still alive in a retirement home in San Diego. I sell aviation art and have had quite a few aces sit in my booth selling there books at air shows. Bud Anderson, Bob Goble, Herkey Green. Ben was never in my booth other than to just say hello. A friend of mine held a number of symposiums over the years with some great aces so I got to hear some great stories and ask some questions that aren't in any book. Just bombing cities that had no strategic importance indicates that civilians were targeted.
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Ben Drew may have written a book that included what I mentioned. He is still alive in a retirement home in San Diego. I sell aviation art and have had quite a few aces sit in my booth selling there books at air shows. Bud Anderson, Bob Goble, Herkey Green. Ben was never in my booth other than to just say hello. A friend of mine held a number of symposiums over the years with some great aces so I got to hear some great stories and ask some questions that aren't in any book. Just bombing cities that had no strategic importance indicates that civilians were targeted.
Thats an entirely different claim then saying fighters were strafing civillians, animals etc as policy. I don't think that anyone is going to dispute that area bombing took place. Seems to me it started with Guernica, Spain by those 111s that everyone wants to have modeled in AH.
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Well..... all I can say is that is what Ben Drew said and my own mother said she saw civilians and animals strafed.
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Interesting book named Dresden looked at similar claims that have become "what everybody knows" in that part of Germany. Historically these reports were noticed by the occupying Soviets and played up for political reasons after the war, according to the book's author.
The author also told of a German, a Dresdener, who did down-to-the-individual-element research on the Dresden firebombing and escorts. After correlating eyewitness accounts with mission reports and flight paths, his conclusion was that the strafing of civilians described by first person witnesses was likely correlated with on the deck dogfights described in both German and American AARs. In other words, the civilians were on the ground fleeing the fires, the planes were down low and shooting, the bullets hit the ground near the civilians...but the actual ATTACK was air to air fighting. Not surprising that target planes flying at 250+ mph, zipping at treetop levels, might be out of visual range of civilians on the ground.
This German researcher was vilified by the population of Dresden, who by that time (late 80s as I recall) had such an ingrained cultural belief in the events that the presentation of data couldn't change their opinions.
BTW, knowing contemporaneaous reports about difficulties hitting bridges, trains, convoys -- is it really credible to think strafing individual farm animals in family sized fields was policy? It seems to me far more likely that what looked like deliberate strafing was by and large collateral damage from other stuff going on beyond visual range of ground observers.
Not to say that there may have been the odd pilot who took "target of opportunity" to ridiculous, bovine slaughtering extremes....but seems almost silly to think that tactical doctrine would have P51 pilots use limited 50cals on cows when there were literally hours of return flight remaining in mission, eh?
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From what Ben Drew said is that he was stationed at a field in England where a squadron of P-47's were engaged in this type of ground warfare. I never said P-51's were doing this
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There was a group of Jugs that was put together to test out ground attack doctrine called "Bill's Buzz Boys" lead by Glen Duncan if I remember right. It had 16 volunteer pilots, 4 each from the 353rd, 359th, 361st and 259th Fighter Groups. Duncan of the 353rd lead the group and it was named for 8th FC General Bill Kepner. Their main job was to develop tactics for strafing airfields.
Urban Drew was with the 361st FG but did not participate with Bill's Buzz Boys that I know of. This took place in Mid March 1944. All 8th AF fighter groups ended up going after the Luftwaffe "in the air and on the ground' after this
It was not put together to strafe civillians. No doubt there were cars, trucks, trains, buildings etc that were strafed that had civillians in them. That tends to go with total war. But it was not a 'doctrine' of the 8th FC to go after civillians this way.
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There was a group of Jugs that was put together to test out ground attack doctrine called "Bill's Buzz Boys" lead by Glen Duncan if I remember right. It had 16 volunteer pilots, 4 each from the 353rd, 359th, 361st and 259th Fighter Groups. Duncan of the 353rd lead the group and it was named for 8th FC General Bill Kepner. Their main job was to develop tactics for strafing airfields.
Urban Drew was with the 361st FG but did not participate with Bill's Buzz Boys that I know of. This took place in Mid March 1944. All 8th AF fighter groups ended up going after the Luftwaffe "in the air and on the ground' after this
It was not put together to strafe civillians. No doubt there were cars, trucks, trains, buildings etc that were strafed that had civillians in them. That tends to go with total war. But it was not a 'doctrine' of the 8th FC to go after civillians this way.
Again that is what Ben Drewtold me. He said they were void of national markings as well. I have a friend that vivsts Ben from time to time . I will ask him to get more info from Ben.