Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: PFactorDave on October 27, 2008, 07:54:22 PM
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I find myself reaching a stagnation point. So, I've been filming flights for a post game study of sorts. I'm wondering if you guys with more experience/skill make a habit of dumping a notch or two of flaps to bring your nose around a bit faster at the top of vertical manuevers?
I'd also like to get a discussion started on the use of rudder in manuevering. Let's talk about whatever it is that helps you guys reverse directions as smoothly and quickly as you do.
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Well when I fly the F6F I remember two simple things.
1) If turn radius is important than get the flaps down.
2) If I want to extend or out accelerate than keep the flaps up.
Very simple concept.
Lets say, for example that I'm at the top of a loop with my opponent on my six. You better believe that I'm going to get my flaps down. Whenever I'm in a tight turn I'm always pressing the "Q" button to get more lift.
Now lets say you have someone on you six and you go into the vertical to out climb them or rope them. In this case you are not trying to achieve a tighter turn radius so therefor the use of flaps would cause unnecessary drag in a fight.
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I find myself reaching a stagnation point. So, I've been filming flights for a post game study of sorts. I'm wondering if you guys with more experience/skill make a habit of dumping a notch or two of flaps to bring your nose around a bit faster at the top of vertical manuevers?
Depends on what my energy state is when going over the top. If I have enough energy and I don't need to swing the nose over the top quickly, I won't use flaps to get over. If it my energy state is low when I'm going to come over the top, I'll deploy a notch of flaps as my nose starts to come down on the top side of the loop. This will cause the nose of my plane to drop downwards very quickly. I'll also do the same thing when doing a stall loop.
In the rare cases in which I will do a triple Immelman, I will use flaps out of necessity to get over the top of the third loop, usually one notch as I start my loop, then another as I come over the top and finally a third notch as my nose comes down. When I have completed my loop and my nose if facing downwards, I will raise my flaps back up and build up my energy again.
I'd also like to get a discussion started on the use of rudder in manuevering. Let's talk about whatever it is that helps you guys reverse directions as smoothly and quickly as you do.
I always use rudders in my turns, helps me roll into a better turning plane's turning circle, especially in nose low turn fights.
ack-ack
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Flap use is totally dependent on the situation. If I'm low on E and need to get over the top I'll probably need them. If I'm in a turn fight losing ground I'll probably need them. The point is I don't use them until I have to because they penalize your E state. I'd rather hold all the E I can as long as I can but again, if I'm losing ground or wallowing at the top then they come out.
As to rudder I use a twisty stick and it's just become second nature. I know I use rudder quite a bit but really can't tell you when or why as it's just instinctual at this point.
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Once I get going in a fight (read a true 1v1), my flaps are almost always deployed. Granted they're moving up and down a lot, but are still down none-the-less. So yes, I 'dump'/have flaps down going over the top.
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Dave, I just posted a thread about spiral ropes in General Discussion. I mention flaps in there. Hope it helps
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Hi,
I'd like to just expand on some of the excellent points made by others. Particularly Ack-Ack, who gets it spot on.
Depends on what my energy state is when going over the top. If I have enough energy and I don't need to swing the nose over the top quickly, I won't use flaps to get over. If it my energy state is low when I'm going to come over the top, I'll deploy a notch of flaps as my nose starts to come down on the top side of the loop. This will cause the nose of my plane to drop downwards very quickly. I'll also do the same thing when doing a stall loop.
In the rare cases in which I will do a triple Immelman, I will use flaps out of necessity to get over the top of the third loop, usually one notch as I start my loop, then another as I come over the top and finally a third notch as my nose comes down. When I have completed my loop and my nose if facing downwards, I will raise my flaps back up and build up my energy again.
I always use rudders in my turns, helps me roll into a better turning plane's turning circle, especially in nose low turn fights.
ack-ack
If you follow Ack-Ack's advice here you won't go far wrong, what he is describing is the common wisdom for fighting in the vertical, whereby you lead the top, and lag the bottom. That is profoundly good advice that will enable you to gain position and maintain energy. To lead the top you use flaps to pull lead, then you retract your flaps and allow your nose to drift into lag around the bottom. That is a powerful energy management tactic that can win fights all by itself.
Also, with regard to rudder use, where best practice varies from aircraft to aircraft. In aircraft like the P-38 the use of rudder assisted roll is almost mandatory, and the payback for the cost in energy will be the ability up keep up with your opponents OODA cycle, but with a lot of aircraft it won't be necessary, and the use of rudder wouldn't be worth the cost in energy. The key factor in the choice is relative roll rate, if your aircraft has a better roll rate at the speed involved don't use rudder, if it has a worse roll rate and rudder helps, then use it. Allowing your opponent to get inside your OODA cycle with a better roll rate can be fatal, all other factors being equal.
Hope that helps.
Badboy
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What's an OODA cycle?
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http://oodacycle.com/OODA.aspx
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I wonder if I might redirect a bit.
I have run across occaisional foes who seem to reverse directions very rapidly after the initial merge. I wonder what techniques they are using to get the nose around so quickly. Is it that they are scrubbing off speed pre-merge to get down to a much better turning speed perhaps?
I am asking simply because there are some pilots who consistantly get into a firing position on me, even on occaisions when I am flying an aircraft that should be able to out turn theirs.
I understand that there are a ton of variables that play into the moves that you make, I guess I'm looking to distill it down to as simple of a starting position as I possibly can, then carry the conversation into the more complex.
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I usually drop flaps as I pull up but as I come down I put flaps back up so I can get back what lil air speed I have.
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Like it was said before, it all depends on your energy state and what your trying to do with the bandit. Even in a spiral climb though, there are times when I kick flaps out to tighten the spiral to either make the bogey think he has a shot, to turn inside him, or to accelerate a stall to fall down onto him. Flaps and a little throttle control,down to 25% then back up to 100% done in about 3 seconds really helps get over the top quicker, tightens your circle, but you are giving up a little bit of energy.
The people that are making the quick merges or reverses on you are doing one of three things. One, they have setup for a lead turn, which can take place on any merge, doesn't have to be the first pass to qualify for a lead turn. Two, have a big difference in energy, them being much slower. Three, CO-E, have a better turning plane. Alot of what you see a good stick doing is just an illusion of camouflaged energy state.
The best thing to learn is how to judge the other person's E state. How fast he is going, and his alt position compared to yours and then relate it back to how your planes match up, then use it against him.
:salute
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Hi,
I'd like to just expand on some of the excellent points made by others. Particularly Ack-Ack, who gets it spot on.
If you follow Ack-Ack's advice here you won't go far wrong, what he is describing is the common wisdom for fighting in the vertical, whereby you lead the top, and lag the bottom. That is profoundly good advice that will enable you to gain position and maintain energy. To lead the top you use flaps to pull lead, then you retract your flaps and allow your nose to drift into lag around the bottom. That is a powerful energy management tactic that can win fights all by itself.
Also, with regard to rudder use, where best practice varies from aircraft to aircraft. In aircraft like the P-38 the use of rudder assisted roll is almost mandatory, and the payback for the cost in energy will be the ability up keep up with your opponents OODA cycle, but with a lot of aircraft it won't be necessary, and the use of rudder wouldn't be worth the cost in energy. The key factor in the choice is relative roll rate, if your aircraft has a better roll rate at the speed involved don't use rudder, if it has a worse roll rate and rudder helps, then use it. Allowing your opponent to get inside your OODA cycle with a better roll rate can be fatal, all other factors being equal.
Hope that helps.
Badboy
Also on that note, I tend to use throttle to help flip the nose over ontop of those stall loops. Let say I wanna roll right to swing my nose around I'd chop throttle as perform the roll then wep up again to build speed. If I'm trying to roll left ontop of the loop I'd maintain wep to use the torque. I think tempest and Tiffies you gotta do the reverse? I've heard of 38 pilots w/ dual throttle can chop 1 and wep the other depend on direction.
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The best thing to learn is how to judge the other person's E state. How fast he is going, and his alt position compared to yours and then relate it back to how your planes match up, then use it against him.
I'll often engage an opponent with a lot of E then, if the opportunity presents itself, quickly dump it for the turn that puts me on his six.
You can judge someone's E state but you still have to be ready to react to quickly changing E states, the problem being that when you react you are already behind the curve.
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I wonder if I might redirect a bit.
I have run across occaisional foes who seem to reverse directions very rapidly after the initial merge. I wonder what techniques they are using to get the nose around so quickly. Is it that they are scrubbing off speed pre-merge to get down to a much better turning speed perhaps?
I am asking simply because there are some pilots who consistantly get into a firing position on me, even on occaisions when I am flying an aircraft that should be able to out turn theirs.
I understand that there are a ton of variables that play into the moves that you make, I guess I'm looking to distill it down to as simple of a starting position as I possibly can, then carry the conversation into the more complex.
Sliceback maneuver?
ack-ack
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Sliceback maneuver?
ack-ack
Possibly, can you describe how it is performed and what it looks like? Thanks.
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As to rudder I use a twisty stick and it's just become second nature. I know I use rudder quite a bit but really can't tell you when or why as it's just instinctual at this point.
same here, now when i lose my rudder i cant so much as hit the broad side of a barn :cry
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Possibly, can you describe how it is performed and what it looks like? Thanks.
The Sliceback Maneuver
The Sliceback is an evil manoeuvre, a dirty trick to pull on a bandit who’s comfortably on
your long six o’clock. It comprises a gentle zoom with an aggressive skid near the top
followed by a nose-low opposite rudder reversal to bring you near head-on with your highly
rattled pursuer. You will need quite a bit of separation for this move since you burn a lot of
energy in the reversal – don’t try it if the bandit is anywhere near guns range. It is best
employed by a fighter with high wingloading and considerable rudder authority, in a situation
where a flat or oblique turn would most likely give the enemy a full planform snapshot. The
manoeuvre requires a good deal of rudder-aileron coordination and should not be attempted
without first having perfected the technique. The “trick” is to mask the airspeed decrease
with the low speed skid – the follow-up rudder reversal usually comes as a nasty shock.
The sliceback is useful in a standard dogfight as well. If you're energy-rich but
angles-poor in a turning fight, the reflexive behaviour is to honk back on the stick and bleed
energy to stay with the bandit. This leads without fault to black-out from excessive gravity
loads, to loss of visual contact and sacrifice of the energy advantage. A more cautious pilot
will normally zoom in the bandit’s rear hemisphere and roll his lift vector onto him for a
high yo-yo. While this is certainly good in most cases, it’s time-consuming and thus allows
the bandit a respite during which angles are lost. The outcome is generally a nose-to-nose
fight where either or both will succumb to head-on shots or collision.
In this situation it is far better to use the vertical and a bit of rudder work. E.g. in a
left turning fight where you have an energy advantage on a bandit who's breaking hard to
left, you nose up and skid right (top rudder) with a bit of left aileron to counter the roll, then
rudder hard to left, nose low while adding a bit of right aileron. This is a sort of vertical lag
displacement sliceback which doesn't cost you much energy and which gives you a low yo-yo
snapshot at the bandit (who sustains his left turn). Follow it up with another high sliceback if
he keeps up his turn, and with a steep barrel roll (canopy to bandit) if he reverses.
In Pursuit: A Pilot’s Guide to Online Air Combat (http://web.comhem.se/~u85627360/inpursuit.pdf)
You'll need to have a .pdf reader installed to read the above book. Although it's essentially the same with the exception of a few updated sections, I recommend purchasing the bound version if you find the free .pdf version helpful.
ack-ack
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Thanks for the read Ack-Ack :aok
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I wonder if I might redirect a bit.
I have run across occaisional foes who seem to reverse directions very rapidly after the initial merge. I wonder what techniques they are using to get the nose around so quickly. Is it that they are scrubbing off speed pre-merge to get down to a much better turning speed perhaps?
I am asking simply because there are some pilots who consistantly get into a firing position on me, even on occaisions when I am flying an aircraft that should be able to out turn theirs.
I understand that there are a ton of variables that play into the moves that you make, I guess I'm looking to distill it down to as simple of a starting position as I possibly can, then carry the conversation into the more complex.
Without a further description, my initial reaction to your post is they are both beating you for position, and executing a pre-turn at the merge. The geometry of which is touched on in this article (http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/acm-merge/acm-merge.htm).
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Without a further description, my initial reaction to your post is they are both beating you for position, and executing a pre-turn at the merge. The geometry of which is touched on in this article (http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/acm-merge/acm-merge.htm).
I'm not really talking about a particular instance, per se. Which is why I haven't put any film up. I was hoping to get a discussion started about merge tactics. One of those rare discussions where we get an insight from some of the experienced sticks.
Thanks for the link to the Trainers site, I'll re-read that and refresh my memory.
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The common perception is that flaps always both give and take away but there is a little more to it. They give by increasing lift at the cost of increased induced drag; however, you have to consider total drag. Yes, lift always causes induced drag; however, this is irrelevant at or near the stall limit since flow separation (the beginning of a wing stall) generates even more drag than the induced drag from the flaps. This is what causes many people to get "parked" at the top of the loop, they bring the airplane up and over, begin to stall (the airflow begins to separate from the wing), the flow separation drastically increases drag and the airplane just sort of stops. By dropping flaps, you increase the ability of the wing to continue to develop lift with less increase in total drag so you maintain more speed and can more easily pitch the nose over. This is also why some planes have a "maneuvering flaps" setting and are usually fought with the flaps down one notch. The P38 and P51 are a couple good examples where the flap limits are high and you may want to just leave them at one notch where the airplane's average drag during a hard maneuvering fight is lower and the turn rate and overall ability to sustain e is improved. Also, this applies when you're near the stall limit, you should always raise the flaps otherwise.
Generally speaking, if you're coming over the top at anything less than corner velocity use at least one notch of flaps (provided they'll come down, remember maximum flap speeds differ for each of the airplanes.) Think of it as whether you're riding the edge of stall (stall limited) or riding the edge of blackout (G limited). If you're stall limited use a notch of flaps (again, if they'll come down at your speed). The slower you are, the more flaps you can use (if you need more) but then get them back up again as soon as your nose is below the horizon and you're accelerating. Even on airplanes without intermittant flap settings such as Spits and Hurri's you can still start the flaps down as you get near the top and then toggle them right back up again as your nose goes below the horizon (their flaps usually move so slowly that they never get below one-quarter to half-flaps before they're coming back up again.)
Last, it should be obvious that flaps need to be mapped to your stick so do that if your stick has the buttons. Most good pilots will be constantly working those puppies up and down throughout a fight and you can't do that well if you're constantly searching for a keyboard button.
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I think I may be seeing the same thing PF is seeing. I'll be in a lagg pursuit at the bottom of a roll and follow the bogey up, as I start to turn into them, it appears they stop at the top and pivot almost directly into me. I see this a lot with F4U's, Spixteens and KI 84s. I'd love to be able to figure this out. All I seem to be able to do at the top of a roll is wallow.
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I think I may be seeing the same thing PF is seeing. I'll be in a lagg pursuit at the bottom of a roll and follow the bogey up, as I start to turn into them, it appears they stop at the top and pivot almost directly into me. I see this a lot with F4U's, Spixteens and KI 84s. I'd love to be able to figure this out. All I seem to be able to do at the top of a roll is wallow.
What you're apparently descrbing is a vertical reversal. Basically you go up as in a loop but instead of continuing in the same plane and pulling over the top to make the loop you go pure vertical and then reverse to come straight back down (or at least it appears that way).
There are a couple of ways you can do this. When going vertical, roll 180deg (or whatever's necessary to put your lift vector where you want it) and immediately pull back down. From the side the airplane will make an S shape laying on it's side (rather than the O of a loop); however, the upper part of the S is much tighter than the lower part because G is working with you to keep a very tight radius. This type of reversal is typical of a vertical scissors.
Another way to change directions quickly is the rudder reversal where you again start by going vertical and, once slow (typically about 100mph or less) put in a bootful of rudder to yaw the nose over. This works best in the direction of your normal torque. Usually, because of torque and a small amount of differential lift on the wings you don't get a pure yaw turn (called a hammerhead in aerobatics) but instead the airplane will also roll. This is sometimes called a pirouette and when it's done correctly the plane will come back down the same flight path it went up. You'll see the rudder reversal a lot in rope maneuvers
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intersting discussion,, i have recently, (after 1.5yrs) turned off stall limiter (waits for everyone to stop laughing) .. i used to use flaps and trim all the time,,, but since removing the stall limiter i have found myself hardly using them at all.. once i figure out the limitations of a particular ride, i am turning harder without flaps and trim than with it. Also E retention is greatly improved, thus my point to post originator is check if your stall limiter is on or off,, this will be affecting your E status in Co E fights and possibly were your opponent is finding the edge in turns etc. Just a thought as i have RE- NOOBED myself by changing this setting and am finding it a healthy challenge in Aces.