Do you dump flaps going over the top?

[PFactorDave]

I find myself reaching a stagnation point.  So, I've been filming flights for a post game study of sorts.  I'm wondering if you guys with more experience/skill make a habit of dumping a notch or two of flaps to bring your nose around a bit faster at the top of vertical manuevers?

I'd also like to get a discussion started on the use of rudder in manuevering.  Let's talk about whatever it is that helps you guys reverse directions as smoothly and quickly as you do.

[F6Fraven]

Well when I fly the F6F I remember two simple things.
1) If turn radius is important than get the flaps down.
2) If I want to extend or out accelerate than keep the flaps up.
 Very simple concept.

  Lets say, for example that I'm at the top of a loop with my opponent on my six. You better believe that I'm going to get my flaps down. Whenever I'm in a tight turn I'm always pressing the "Q" button to get more lift.

  Now lets say you have someone on you six and you go into the vertical to out climb them or rope them. In this case you are not trying to achieve a tighter turn radius so therefor the use of flaps would cause unnecessary drag in a fight.
   

[Ack-Ack]

I find myself reaching a stagnation point.  So, I've been filming flights for a post game study of sorts.  I'm wondering if you guys with more experience/skill make a habit of dumping a notch or two of flaps to bring your nose around a bit faster at the top of vertical manuevers?

Depends on what my energy state is when going over the top.  If I have enough energy and I don't need to swing the nose over the top quickly, I won't use flaps to get over.  If it my energy state is low when I'm going to come over the top, I'll deploy a notch of flaps as my nose starts to come down on the top side of the loop. This will cause the nose of my plane to drop downwards very quickly.  I'll also do the same thing when doing a stall loop.

In the rare cases in which I will do a triple Immelman, I will use flaps out of necessity to get over the top of the third loop, usually one notch as I start my loop, then another as I come over the top and finally a third notch as my nose comes down.  When I have completed my loop and my nose if facing downwards, I will raise my flaps back up and build up my energy again.

I'd also like to get a discussion started on the use of rudder in manuevering.  Let's talk about whatever it is that helps you guys reverse directions as smoothly and quickly as you do.

I always use rudders in my turns, helps me roll into a better turning plane's turning circle, especially in nose low turn fights.


ack-ack

[BaldEagl]

Flap use is totally dependent on the situation.  If I'm low on E and need to get over the top I'll probably need them.  If I'm in a turn fight losing ground I'll probably need them.  The point is I don't use them until I have to because they penalize your E state.  I'd rather hold all the E I can as long as I can but again, if I'm losing ground or wallowing at the top then they come out.

As to rudder I use a twisty stick and it's just become second nature.  I know I use rudder quite a bit but really can't tell you when or why as it's just instinctual at this point.

[abc123]

Once I get going in a fight (read a true 1v1), my flaps are almost always deployed.  Granted they're moving up and down a lot, but are still down none-the-less.  So yes, I 'dump'/have flaps down going over the top.

[Steve]

Dave, I just posted a thread about spiral ropes in General Discussion.  I mention flaps in there.  Hope it helps

[Badboy]

Hi,

I'd like to just expand on some of the excellent points made by others. Particularly Ack-Ack, who gets it spot on.

Depends on what my energy state is when going over the top.  If I have enough energy and I don't need to swing the nose over the top quickly, I won't use flaps to get over.  If it my energy state is low when I'm going to come over the top, I'll deploy a notch of flaps as my nose starts to come down on the top side of the loop. This will cause the nose of my plane to drop downwards very quickly.  I'll also do the same thing when doing a stall loop.

In the rare cases in which I will do a triple Immelman, I will use flaps out of necessity to get over the top of the third loop, usually one notch as I start my loop, then another as I come over the top and finally a third notch as my nose comes down.  When I have completed my loop and my nose if facing downwards, I will raise my flaps back up and build up my energy again.

I always use rudders in my turns, helps me roll into a better turning plane's turning circle, especially in nose low turn fights.

ack-ack

If you follow Ack-Ack's advice here you won't go far wrong, what he is describing is the common wisdom for fighting in the vertical, whereby you lead the top, and lag the bottom. That is profoundly good advice that will enable you to gain position and maintain energy. To lead the top you use flaps to pull lead, then you retract your flaps and allow your nose to drift into lag around the bottom. That is a powerful energy management tactic that can win fights all by itself.

Also, with regard to rudder use, where best practice varies from aircraft to aircraft. In aircraft like the P-38 the use of rudder assisted roll is almost mandatory, and the payback for the cost in energy will be the ability up keep up with your opponents OODA cycle, but with a lot of aircraft it won't be necessary, and the use of rudder wouldn't be worth the cost in energy. The key factor in the choice is relative roll rate, if your aircraft has a better roll rate at the speed involved don't use rudder, if it has a worse roll rate and rudder helps, then use it. Allowing your opponent to get inside your OODA cycle with a better roll rate can be fatal, all other factors being equal.

Hope that helps.

Badboy

 

[Wedge1126]

What's an OODA cycle?

[633DH98]

http://oodacycle.com/OODA.aspx 

[PFactorDave]

I wonder if I might redirect a bit.

I have run across occaisional foes who seem to reverse directions very rapidly after the initial merge.  I wonder what techniques they are using to get the nose around so quickly.   Is it that they are scrubbing off speed pre-merge to get down to a much better turning speed perhaps?

I am asking simply because there are some pilots who consistantly get into a firing position on me, even on occaisions when I am flying an aircraft that should be able to out turn theirs.

I understand that there are a ton of variables that play into the moves that you make, I guess I'm looking to distill it down to as simple of a starting position as I possibly can, then carry the conversation into the more complex.

[Yenny]

I usually drop flaps as I pull up but as I come down I put flaps back up so I can get back what lil air speed I have.

[Prayerz]

Like it was said before, it all depends on your energy state and what your trying to do with the bandit. Even in a spiral climb though, there are times when I kick flaps out to tighten the spiral to either make the bogey think he has a shot, to turn inside him, or to accelerate a stall to fall down onto him. Flaps and a little throttle control,down to 25% then back up to 100% done in about 3 seconds really helps get over the top quicker, tightens your circle, but you are giving up a little bit of energy.

The people that are making the quick merges or reverses on you are doing one of three things. One, they have setup for a lead turn, which can take place on any merge, doesn't have to be the first pass to qualify for a lead turn. Two, have a big difference in energy, them being much slower. Three, CO-E, have a better turning plane. Alot of what you see a good stick doing is just an illusion of camouflaged energy state.

The best thing to learn is how to judge the other person's E state. How fast he is going, and his alt position compared to yours and then relate it back to how your planes match up, then use it against him.

 

[Yenny]

Hi,

I'd like to just expand on some of the excellent points made by others. Particularly Ack-Ack, who gets it spot on.

If you follow Ack-Ack's advice here you won't go far wrong, what he is describing is the common wisdom for fighting in the vertical, whereby you lead the top, and lag the bottom. That is profoundly good advice that will enable you to gain position and maintain energy. To lead the top you use flaps to pull lead, then you retract your flaps and allow your nose to drift into lag around the bottom. That is a powerful energy management tactic that can win fights all by itself.

Also, with regard to rudder use, where best practice varies from aircraft to aircraft. In aircraft like the P-38 the use of rudder assisted roll is almost mandatory, and the payback for the cost in energy will be the ability up keep up with your opponents OODA cycle, but with a lot of aircraft it won't be necessary, and the use of rudder wouldn't be worth the cost in energy. The key factor in the choice is relative roll rate, if your aircraft has a better roll rate at the speed involved don't use rudder, if it has a worse roll rate and rudder helps, then use it. Allowing your opponent to get inside your OODA cycle with a better roll rate can be fatal, all other factors being equal.

Hope that helps.

Badboy

 

Also on that note, I tend to use throttle to help flip the nose over ontop of those stall loops. Let say I wanna roll right to swing my nose around I'd chop throttle as perform the roll then wep up again to build speed. If I'm trying to roll left ontop of the loop I'd maintain wep to use the torque. I think tempest and Tiffies you gotta do the reverse? I've heard of 38 pilots w/ dual throttle can chop 1 and wep the other depend on direction.

[BaldEagl]

The best thing to learn is how to judge the other person's E state. How fast he is going, and his alt position compared to yours and then relate it back to how your planes match up, then use it against him.

I'll often engage an opponent with a lot of E then, if the opportunity presents itself, quickly dump it for the turn that puts me on his six.

You can judge someone's E state but you still have to be ready to react to quickly changing E states, the problem being that when you react you are already behind the curve.

[Ack-Ack]

I wonder if I might redirect a bit.

I have run across occaisional foes who seem to reverse directions very rapidly after the initial merge.  I wonder what techniques they are using to get the nose around so quickly.   Is it that they are scrubbing off speed pre-merge to get down to a much better turning speed perhaps?

I am asking simply because there are some pilots who consistantly get into a firing position on me, even on occaisions when I am flying an aircraft that should be able to out turn theirs.

I understand that there are a ton of variables that play into the moves that you make, I guess I'm looking to distill it down to as simple of a starting position as I possibly can, then carry the conversation into the more complex.

Sliceback maneuver?


ack-ack