Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: BaldEagl on October 28, 2008, 12:04:19 PM
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Last night I ran into a 109K-4, then later a 109G-14 that showed some of the most timid flying I have ever seen.
The first one was the K-4. We met at ~16K over a contested Bish base. I was in my usual Spit XVI buff hunting. We merged and the Knight K-4 stick pulled up. I reversed and followed, somewhat behind him. He continued a lazy spiral climb barely turning at all but doing so nonetheless until we reached 30K! I could never seem to get closer than 2K from him but kept following him up as the XVI is a better extreme alt performer than any German aircraft (except maybe the 110). At about 30K he finally reversed and I picked up his six 800 back. Again he just kept flying away in his lazy spiral climb. I broke off and RTB'd for fuel in a full power dive to my base, then slipped it hard and belly landed just as he was approaching the field ack.
Later, I was chasing, and finally killed three Rook Lancs. During this I had a G-14 about 2K back. Everytime I killed a Lanc I'd pull up, roll over and make my next pass. Each time I pulled up the G-14 would back off. Finally, once all the Lancs were dead the G-14 engaged. We went 1 1/2 turns before I acquired his six and he dove to his field ack. As he did I pulled up and climbed to my cruising alt just above the cloud layer as I only had six cannon rounds left. He climbed and followed outside of icon distance. As I hit my dar ring I nosed into a steep, full throttle dive to base, hard slipped and belly landed just as the base ack started to fire at him.
Now usually, 109 sticks are pretty good. N00bs don't usually fly K-4's and G-14's. Either can E fight a Spit XVI. I've done it and had it done to me. I just had to comment because that was some of the lamest, most timid 109 flying I have ever seen and twice in a row on both sides of the map. Not only would neither of them fight, they both tried to chase me in for the vulch as I landed.
What were they thinking taking those planes up? It certainly couldn't have been fun for them the way they flew.
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Both the G14 and K4 got the aimbot mod at the convention.
But, you have to download them from the aimbot ftp site, and nobody will give it to me!
:furious
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There you go again, complaining that people won't fight you when you're in a SpitXVI. :rolleyes: And no, I was not flying in the LWA last night.
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There you go again, complaining that people won't fight you when you're in a SpitXVI. :rolleyes: And no, I was not flying in the LWA last night.
Well, I was happily buff hunting. They should have just left me alone.
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Just saying... If you want a good fight, you'll have to fly something that doesn't make the opponent think "this guy will own me with his 16 even if I'm an equal pilot." That's not to say I never fight 16's 1vs1, I do, and sometimes I die, but if I win it's because my opponent was worse than I am. :lol
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right with Anax on this one. Youre flying a spit16 at 16k and they are timid? So you are buff hunting...ok...so you say they should leave you alone....so why follow one all the way to 30k if you didnt intent to kill them. And lets be blunt, you're only mad because you were denied two easy kills. Try and look from their perspective, without film you will never know if it was a noob or a timid dweeb... [shrug]
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You got to have a huge difference in skill in favour of the 109 to beat the Spit16, for me, i tend to regroup at the tower allways after meeting with the Spit16 in my 109.
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So you are buff hunting...ok...so you say they should leave you alone....so why follow one all the way to 30k if you didnt intent to kill them. And lets be blunt, you're only mad because you were denied two easy kills. [shrug]
I followed him up because he initiated it, and after all I was right in doing so because as soon as I turned tail on him he got all brave and actually chased me all the way down from 30K.
I'm not mad at all, but if you're not willing to fight someone then you should'nt even engage them. If you do engage and break off, then IMO it's pretty dweeby to try to follow them home afterwards for the landing vulch.
The K-4 can give a Spit a good fight using E tactics. So can the G-14 although with a bit more difficulty.
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There you go again, complaining that people won't fight you when you're in a SpitXVI. :rolleyes: And no, I was not flying in the LWA last night.
I have to agree. I take a dweeb 16 up only a few times each tour. I reserve it for those nights when I am the bug, not the windshield.
Baldy, you have been around long enough, and are likely quite good. Fly a tour with only 20+ eny planes. It's quite satisfying.
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I followed him up because he initiated it, and after all I was right in doing so because as soon as I turned tail on him he got all brave and actually chased me all the way down from 30K.
I'm not mad at all, but if you're not willing to fight someone then you should'nt even engage them. If you do engage and break off, then IMO it's pretty dweeby to try to follow them home afterwards for the landing vulch.
The K-4 can give a Spit a good fight using E tactics. So can the G-14 although with a bit more difficulty.
using dedalos's words, sounds like more keyboard ACM
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Well, I was happily buff hunting. They should have just left me alone.
Im sure those buff's were just happily bombing, you should of left them alone then. :devil
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Just saying... If you want a good fight, you'll have to fly something that doesn't make the opponent think "this guy will own me with his 16 even if I'm an equal pilot."
Why should BaldEagle have to switch planes to find a good fight? Why can't it be the case of the other guy finding some balls and engaging instead of wussing out and not fighting because the other guy is flying a Spitfire Mk XVI? I guess I just don't see it as a case of the problem being BaldEagle's because he's in a XVI but rather the case of the other player being too timid.
ack-ack
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There were a ton of things the 109 could have done instead of being yellow. Just because it's a spit16 doesn't mean it's uber and has to be run from. The 109 pilot was probably a clueless "vet."
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I have to agree. I take a dweeb 16 up only a few times each tour. I reserve it for those nights when I am the bug, not the windshield.
Baldy, you have been around long enough, and are likely quite good. Fly a tour with only 20+ eny planes. It's quite satisfying.
You mean something like this (last tour):
AC Kills in
A-20G 3
Bf 109E-4 1
Bf 109G-14 5
Bf 109G-2 2
Bf 109G-6 5
Bf 109K-4 3
Bf 110C-4b 1
Bf 110G-2 5
Boston III 1
Chute 1
F4F-4 4
F4U-1 6
F4U-1A 3
F4U-1C 7
F4U-4 5
F6F-5 13
FM2 3
Fw 190A-5 3
Fw 190A-8 4
Hurricane Mk IID 2
Il-2 4
Ki-61 4
Ki-84-Ia 7
M-16 1
M-3 2
M-8 3
Me 163B 4
Me 262 4
N1K2 6
Ostwind 5
P-38J 2
P-47-D11 6
P-47-D25 7
P-47-D40 2
P-51B 2
P-51D 4
Panzer IV H 13
PT Boat 2
Sherman VC 6
Ship Gunner 9
Spitfire Mk I 3
Spitfire Mk XVI 24
T-34/76 3
T-34/85 7
Tiger I 11
Typhoon IB 3
Wirbelwind 4
Yak-9T 2
Yak-9U 9
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Why should BaldEagle have to switch planes to find a good fight? Why can't it be the case of the other guy finding some balls and engaging instead of wussing out and not fighting because the other guy is flying a Spitfire Mk XVI? I guess I just don't see it as a case of the problem being BaldEagle's because he's in a XVI but rather the case of the other player being too timid.
ack-ack
Do you blame the turkey for running off when you come charging with a shotgun and a yellow jacket?
I followed him up because he initiated it, and after all I was right in doing so because as soon as I turned tail on him he got all brave and actually chased me all the way down from 30K.
I'm not mad at all, but if you're not willing to fight someone then you should'nt even engage them. If you do engage and break off, then IMO it's pretty dweeby to try to follow them home afterwards for the landing vulch.
The K-4 can give a Spit a good fight using E tactics. So can the G-14 although with a bit more difficulty.
Get a grip sir, please. How long ago was it that you yourself were flying for score cards in a P51 or 190D and running when things looked ugly? End of a long sortie, you have 5 pelts and dont much fancy fighting another spit16, so you drag him to your ack and land 6 kills... We all been there and still go there when we lose our bottle.
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There were a ton of things the 109 could have done instead of being yellow. Just because it's a spit16 doesn't mean it's uber and has to be run from. The 109 pilot was probably a clueless "vet."
And just so i am clear, i agree with what stang and others have said and persoanlly i wouldnt dream of running from any encounter that had even a 1% chance of success. My only points are:
A) you dont know who was flying or what their ambitions were.
B) you were flying the ultimate easy mode plane.
C)You're being a hypocryte
D)this is not finally something worth whinning about, merly an everyday occurance in the Ma.
no offence intended.
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Later, I was chasing, and finally killed three Rook Lancs. During this I had a G-14 about 2K back. Everytime I killed a Lanc I'd pull up, roll over and make my next pass. Each time I pulled up the G-14 would back off. Finally, once all the Lancs were dead the G-14 engaged. We went 1 1/2 turns before I acquired his six and he dove to his field ack. As he did I pulled up and climbed to my cruising alt just above the cloud layer as I only had six cannon rounds left. He climbed and followed outside of icon distance. As I hit my dar ring I nosed into a steep, full throttle dive to base, hard slipped and belly landed just as the base ack started to fire at him.
This one makes little sense. If I was in the G-drivers shoes, I would check6 the buffs and hang back (unless they asked for assistance....maybe the buff gunner even told him to stay away) so the buff gunner could shoot you in the face. He deserves the kill because you jumped him (I doubt the buffs jumped you :D) . Anyway, after the buffs went poof, the G-driver jumps in and ends up loosing the advantage, so to save his hide he runs for his field......then YOU run for YOUR field. He was obviously chasing you because you had to "hard slip and belly land" to avoid him.
Once he got you off with his ack, he leveled the playing field again and turned back for you.....and you ran and bellied in to get a quick tower....he could make the same "dweeb" accusations as you.
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And just so i am clear, i agree with what stang and others have said and persoanlly i wouldnt dream of running from any encounter that had even a 1% chance of success. My only points are:
A) you dont know who was flying or what their ambitions were.
B) you were flying the ultimate easy mode plane.
C)You're being a hypocryte
D)this is not finally something worth whinning about, merly an everyday occurance in the Ma.
no offence intended.
Agreed.
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Get a grip sir, please. How long ago was it that you yourself were flying for score cards in a P51 or 190D and running when things looked ugly?
I don't think I've ever really done that to any extent unless I was already low on fuel, low on ammo or already shot up, in which case I wouldn't have initiated another engagement either.
H@ll, it took me years to get out of the habit of diving into me on 10+ odds alone. It's only been within the past year or so that I broke myself of that habit.
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Why should BaldEagle have to switch planes to find a good fight? Why can't it be the case of the other guy finding some balls and engaging instead of wussing out and not fighting because the other guy is flying a Spitfire Mk XVI? I guess I just don't see it as a case of the problem being BaldEagle's because he's in a XVI but rather the case of the other player being too timid.
ack-ack
He doesn't. Personally, I don't care what plane it is I go after it, perhaps that's why I lose a bunch. That and this tour I generally have been flying crap planes.
For those who fly for score, they choose their battle carefully. I don't understand it, but we all get our jollies our own way. I think Pick51 and run90 pilots are the crap of the game, but they are happy. :rolleyes:
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Once he got you off with his ack, he leveled the playing field again and turned back for you.....and you ran and bellied in to get a quick tower....he could make the same "dweeb" accusations as you.
I never went near his ack. As soon as he dove out I climbed to alt and headed home because, as i said, I was down to 6 cannon rounds left.
I hardly jumped the Lancs. I chased them for almost three sectors having to first take off and climb to them as they passed over my field. Then, before I even got into icon range they went into a dive to try to outrun me.
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Hypocrite? Hardly. I just don't make excuses for others' ineptitudes.
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I never went near his ack. As soon as he dove out I climbed to alt and headed home because, as i said, I was down to 6 cannon rounds left.
I hardly jumped the Lancs. I chased them for almost three sectors having to first take off and climb to them as they passed over my field. Then, before I even got into icon range they went into a dive to try to outrun me.
Fair enough. He lost advantage and you spent most of your ammo. You both had reasons to head for safety. At least he did turn back for you. :salute
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Hypocrite? Hardly. I just don't make excuses for others' ineptitudes.
not you stang, you know i think youre still sexy. I see how your quote then my reply to BE are ambigous.
I don't think I've ever really done that to any extent unless I was already low on fuel, low on ammo or already shot up, in which case I wouldn't have initiated another engagement either.
H@ll, it took me years to get out of the habit of diving into me on 10+ odds alone. It's only been within the past year or so that I broke myself of that habit.
Well i will take your word for it. I know that myself i have had countless times when i have cut my losses and dived for home in an attempt to avoid a pointless death. Most other times i have stayed in stupid odds and not worried about the inevitable death at the end.
I geuss i just matured past blaming other people for not flying how i want them to.
I mean come on, we ask for realism often, this very situation is about as realistic as one could get.
forgive my attitude, I must be feeling confrontational today.
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All in all, getting back to the original point of the post, yeah good fights are hard to find these days :frown:
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You mean something like this (last tour):
AC Kills in
A-20G 3
Bf 109E-4 1
Bf 109G-14 5
Bf 109G-2 2
Bf 109G-6 5
Bf 109K-4 3
Bf 110C-4b 1
Bf 110G-2 5
Boston III 1
Chute 1
F4F-4 4
F4U-1 6
F4U-1A 3
F4U-1C 7
F4U-4 5
F6F-5 13
FM2 3
Fw 190A-5 3
Fw 190A-8 4
Hurricane Mk IID 2
Il-2 4
Ki-61 4
Ki-84-Ia 7
M-16 1
M-3 2
M-8 3
Me 163B 4
Me 262 4
N1K2 6
Ostwind 5
P-38J 2
P-47-D11 6
P-47-D25 7
P-47-D40 2
P-51B 2
P-51D 4
Panzer IV H 13
PT Boat 2
Sherman VC 6
Ship Gunner 9
Spitfire Mk I 3
Spitfire Mk XVI 24
T-34/76 3
T-34/85 7
Tiger I 11
Typhoon IB 3
Wirbelwind 4
Yak-9T 2
Yak-9U 9
Is this typical for you or are you using a single anomaly to try to make a point? No need to get worked up. You were flying a trainer at 16k "buff hunting". It's not like you deserve a fair fight.
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Is this typical for you or are you using a single anomaly to try to make a point?
Here's the tour before that one:
Bf 109E-4 1
Bf 109G-14 1
Bf 109G-2 1
Bf 109G-6 2
Bf 109K-4 7
C.205 5
F4F-4 1
F4U-1 1
F4U-1A 2
F4U-1D 1
F4U-4 1
F6F-5 20
FM2 1
Fw 190A-8 13
Fw 190D-9 2
Fw 190F-8 3
Hurricane Mk IID 1
Il-2 4
Ju 87D-3 3
Ki-84-Ia 2
La-5FN 2
La-7 1
M-3 1
M-8 1
N1K2 1
Ostwind 16
P-38J 2
P-47-D11 2
P-47-D25 1
P-47-D40 1
P-47N 2
P-51D 7
Panzer IV H 19
Sherman VC 35
Ship Gunner 3
Spitfire Mk IX 7
Spitfire Mk VIII 1
Spitfire Mk XVI 82
Ta 152H 3
Tempest 4
Tiger I 15
Typhoon IB 3
Wirbelwind 11
Yak-9T 2
Yak-9U 2
Not really an anomoly. I fly everything pretty regularily. About every three months I get around to every plane just to keep in touch with their capabilities but the Spit's always been my preferred ride (Since i started with AW in '96).
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Leave the D-9 out of this or I'd have to dust it off to bring the pain to you guys.
Acutally Saantana and I had some really good fight at TT yesterday. K4 vs Spit16, he knows who owns em spitty =p
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Now usually, 109 sticks are pretty good. N00bs don't usually fly K-4's and G-14's. Either can E fight a Spit XVI. I've done it and had it done to me. I just had to comment because that was some of the lamest, most timid 109 flying I have ever seen
What were they thinking taking those planes up? It certainly couldn't have been fun for them the way they flew.
The bish had a vehicle base behind our (nit) front lines. There was 1 green dot and a small red dar bar in the sector. It looked like the friendly was rtb-ing. So i fly over to see if i can help or just harass whomever is left.
It was indeed a buff formation and two cons were making passes at him. The buffs are low so i have to burn off e and dive (not easy for my Ki-84). By the time i can engage, there is 1 buff left and i go after the p51b. i manage to get the better of him and he is trying to bug out when i spot a 109k4 coming in...
http://files.filefront.com/me+vs+baldeagleahf/;12095138;/fileinfo.html (http://files.filefront.com/me+vs+baldeagleahf/;12095138;/fileinfo.html)
Bldeagl, i'm sure you are better than me. I make no claims that i am good at all. But you kept trying to rope me in this fight. I would call it timid flying for someone with your skill.
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The bish had a vehicle base behind our (nit) front lines. There was 1 green dot and a small red dar bar in the sector. It looked like the friendly was rtb-ing. So i fly over to see if i can help or just harass whomever is left.
It was indeed a buff formation and two cons were making passes at him. The buffs are low so i have to burn off e and dive (not easy for my Ki-84). By the time i can engage, there is 1 buff left and i go after the p51b. i manage to get the better of him and he is trying to bug out when i spot a 109k4 coming in...
http://files.filefront.com/me+vs+baldeagleahf/;12095138;/fileinfo.html (http://files.filefront.com/me+vs+baldeagleahf/;12095138;/fileinfo.html)
Bldeagl, i'm sure you are better than me. I make no claims that i am good at all. But you kept trying to rope me in this fight. I would call it timid flying for someone with your skill.
I'll have to check that out when I get home tonight. Sounds like something I'd do.
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Bldeagl, i'm sure you are better than me. I make no claims that i am good at all. But you kept trying to rope me in this fight. I would call it timid flying for someone with your skill.
Why is it timid flying if he used his energy advantage to rope you? Or is it because he forced you to fight his fight and not yours? Or is calling his roping you timid flying just a way to sooth a battered ego because you fell for the rope and died?
ack-ack
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Let me ask you. Do you suppose if Baldy was flying a 109k or a tempest or something harder to fight in and it was an enemy spit16 that refused to engage him...would we still see this thread? Or would our friend Baldy infact be thankfull that the spit16 did not want to try and ruin his BnZ sortie?
hmmm
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Why is it timid flying if he used his energy advantage to rope you? Or is it because he forced you to fight his fight and not yours? Or is calling his roping you timid flying just a way to sooth a battered ego because you fell for the rope and died?
ack-ack
Why don't you watch the film before you assume that i died?
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boom headshot
:rofl
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Why don't you watch the film before you assume that i died?
Wow I was just getting ready to post the same thing. :rofl :rofl
If it is any indicator there were only an estimated 6 passes in the eleven minutes and fifteen seconds of film. I call that pretty timid flying.
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and now that hypocracy has been validated, we can all group hug and accept that everyone has a 'timid' sortie once in a while. The whole 'fly my way or the highway' routine we all are responsible for is a load of toejam.
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Damn. Now i really want to see that film but I won't get a chance for another 3-4 hours.
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i dont see why not, they dont seem to care that you waste work hours starting dramas on a game forum :p
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Damn. Now i really want to see that film but I won't get a chance for another 3-4 hours.
You were doing pretty much what you were whining about.
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For my part, I have a hard enough time as it is killing 16s when I have an e advantage, let alone starting co-e or at a disadvantage. When I do succeed it's often when my opponent is unskilled. If I'm in a 109K, my one trump card is speed. If I'm in a 109G-14, the speed advantage is almost gone, and if I'm in a 109G-6, the 16 can run me down and out turn me. So forgive those of us who are not acm gods for running from 16s. Maybe we'll stay and fight once we're good enough to kill a 16 from a co-e start, and once we've mastered that we'll move on to fighting them when they're on our 6. For now, it's tiring to hear the most skilled pilots crow about how unmanly the rest of us are for running with a 16 on our 6, when their chances of success by fighting are realistic and ours approach zero. You have to take these things in steps. Setting up an amazing batfink overshoot for a killing snap shot comes after many other lessons and skills, and we may still be a long ways away from turning-the-tables-on-a-good-16-pilot lesson. For now, I'm happy to work on killing 16s from a co-e start, without an obvious angles advantage for either side. I find that to be an exhilarating challenge. When I'm confident at that, I'll work on the amazing batfink overshoots. ;)
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When I do succeed i Setting up an amazing batfink overshoot for a killing snap shot comes after many other lessons and skills,
Yup, spixteens are very capable planes. I usually go for overshoot when one has E advantage. Anecdotally, 16 pilots seem loathe to get off the throttle when they are on my 6 so making them over shoot is not that hard. Spixteens don't seem to decelerate very well, either. As opposed to a snap shot, one can often get saddled long enough to get a nice squirt in. Although sometimes I'm the hydrant, not the dog. :aok
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You got to have a huge difference in skill in favour of the 109 to beat the Spit16, for me, i tend to regroup at the tower allways after meeting with the Spit16 in my 109.
Yep I would agree with this.. A spit16 will easily be able to out fly a 109, even if the guy in 109 is a very good stick. He is still at the disadvantage at any fight with a spit16 that is close to co alt, even if the guy in the Spit16 is "average". Why not lose the training wheels and fly something that takes a little skill?
The 109 pilot really has to be a much much better pilot that the spit16 dweeb in a co alt fight, unless he just gets lucky. Besides that there are many other planes that are better for buff hunting. Out of any of the spit's the 16 is the one that gives me the hardest time. Simply put it's one of the "Uber" planes of AH.
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Sounds to me like someone was trying to get their score up, the 'fair' way, if you even wanna call it that.
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Setting up an amazing batfink overshoot for a killing snap shot comes after many other lessons and skills [snip]
Sincere thanks for the compliment sir, you made me smile wide! Credit where it is due, the move should be named after WldThng. Long ago i saw a film of him in a spitfire below literally 20 red guys and he pulled 'my' move on no less than 7 attacking enemy and killed them in 2 minutes.
:eek:
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About every three months I get around to every plane just to keep in touch with their capabilities but the Spit's always been my preferred ride (Since i started with AW in '96).
This is a really good idea. A couple of nights ago I upped a 38l, F6F, and yak 9u for that reason. Good thinking, IMHO.
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LOL a spit climbing to 30K... I woulda killed him at 19k
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LOL a spit climbing to 30K... I woulda been killed at 19k and then PM'd the guy that killed me cussing him out
quote corrected for accuracy.
ack-ack
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quote corrected for accuracy.
ack-ack
:lol :aok
The old deathx rant. Apparently, many have been entertained by it.
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:lol
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I don't understand timid flying(I wish I did). I'm brave(dumb) and would have attacked the spit even without an advantage(and would have been beat down horribly).....I call it aggressive tactics(dumb flying). If I were an actual pilot fighting for my life I probably would spend most of my time running if I felt threatened without a wingman or a huge advantage, but this is just a game and while flying smart(boring climbs waiting for the proper window) is a better way of going about things....I just have too much fun flying how I fly(really really dumb...yet having fun). :salute
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I don't understand timid flying(I wish I did). I'm brave(dumb) and would have attacked the spit even without an advantage(and would have been beat down horribly).....I call it aggressive tactics(dumb flying). If I were an actual pilot fighting for my life I probably would spend most of my time running if I felt threatened without a wingman or a huge advantage, but this is just a game and while flying smart(boring climbs waiting for the proper window) is a better way of going about things....I just have too much fun flying how I fly(really really dumb...yet having fun). :salute
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/20/PS_Kr%C3%B8yer_-_Hip_hip_hurra%21_Kunstnerfest_p%C3%A5_Skagen_1888.jpg/333px-PS_Kr%C3%B8yer_-_Hip_hip_hurra%21_Kunstnerfest_p%C3%A5_Skagen_1888.jpg)
Well said. I'll drink to that!
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LOL Ack-Ack.
:lol
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Last night I ran into a 109K-4, then later a 109G-14 that showed some of the most timid flying I have ever seen.
The first one was the K-4. We met at ~16K over a contested Bish base. I was in my usual Spit XVI buff hunting. We merged and the Knight K-4 stick pulled up. I reversed and followed, somewhat behind him. He continued a lazy spiral climb barely turning at all but doing so nonetheless until we reached 30K! I could never seem to get closer than 2K from him but kept following him up as the XVI is a better extreme alt performer than any German aircraft (except maybe the 110). At about 30K he finally reversed and I picked up his six 800 back. Again he just kept flying away in his lazy spiral climb. I broke off and RTB'd for fuel in a full power dive to my base, then slipped it hard and belly landed just as he was approaching the field ack.
This sounds like GTR. 1 v 1 at 20k, 152 v Dora and after a couple of merges he gets scared and runs for 1.5 sectors. When we got over his field we merged again and again he got scared and dove 15k to ack. 15 frigging K straight down to ack from an even 1 v 1. :furious
Not only did he run like a little girl, he called one of his squadies over to the base he was hiding at so that they could try to gang me.
He wasn't trying to land, every time I broke off, he'd climb back to 15k and turn back in my direction.
If you're not going to fight have the decency to say so on 200 so that I don't waste the last 45 minutes I have online for the night.
Luckily I rolled film because I ran low on fuel and flew all the way home. When I checked the film I wasn't the least bit surprised to find out that it was GTR. He is a waste of bandwidth.
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OK. I watched the film. I reversed on Caldera 12 times in ~8 minutes then finally exited, probably out of ammo (but the stupid film viewer doesn't let you see that).
For the most part, our fight took place with us within 1.5K of one another although there were a couple of times it extended to 2.5K mostly near the end as Caldera tried to extend and I had to chase him back down. Through much of the fight I was reversing at under 1K (many reverses at 7-900).
I'm certainly not going to appologize or feel bad about using the K4's superior climb rate to try to beat a much nimbler aircraft.
This film is nothing for me to be ashamed of other than the fact I didn't get the kill and has absolutely nothing in common with my encounters last night. I stayed in and fought until I was out of ammo. None of these were BnZ passes. It was classic energy fighting with a less nimble AC against a more nimble AC both using their planes strengths to try to gain an advantage and, for the most part, remaining inside the box.
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Well, I was happily buff hunting. They should have just left me alone.
sounds like they did.
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H@ll, it took me years to get out of the habit of diving into me on 10+ odds alone. It's only been within the past year or so that I broke myself of that habit.
well, sniffing your stats, the only thing you've seemed to learn is how to game the stats. however, seems you've been consistently mediocre in skills over the years...
:noid
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Sincere thanks for the compliment sir, you made me smile wide! Credit where it is due, the move should be named after WldThng. Long ago i saw a film of him in a spitfire below literally 20 red guys and he pulled 'my' move on no less than 7 attacking enemy and killed them in 2 minutes.
:eek:
and who do you think taught him that? that move existed even before me (and i was using it in AW, and i'm sure someone in ww2 did)... not everyone figures it out.
:noid
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Shane: so who could be credited with first using or demonstrating it in the world of combat flight sims? Personally i never seen anyone do it better than WT in that 7 kill clip. But yeah, getting the crap beaten out of me by fellows such as yourself all nudged me towards the present. And i am thankfull.
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Im sorry, what is this "The Move" you guys are talking about ?
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Shane: so who could be credited with first using or demonstrating it in the world of combat flight sims? Personally i never seen anyone do it better than WT in that 7 kill clip. But yeah, getting the crap beaten out of me by fellows such as yourself all nudged me towards the present. And i am thankfull.
no idea... no one ever showed it to me, so i'm guessing it's like the wheel... discovered independently and repeatedly over the years in various sims.
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Well, I was happily buff hunting. They should have just left me alone.
I should post this on the wish list forums, however,,, I live in VA BCH, in the summer they have planes flying around pulling these huge advertising banners of various sizes, well I was just thinking,,, maybe we could use them in the game,,, so you would pull one around that would say,,,ummm BUFF HUNTING, PICKING, RUNNING, RTB, or just HI YALL, HOWDY, WHAT IS YOUR SIGN, etc.... :lol
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well, sniffing your stats, the only thing you've seemed to learn is how to game the stats. however, seems you've been consistently mediocre in skills over the years...
:noid
And that has relevence to this thread in what way?
If you look closer the only stat I'm consistently bad in is K/H due to where and how I fly and what i enjoy in the game. I also fly all of the plane set over time and I can't claim greatness in every plane in the game.
Still, I'm not claiming to be among the best but certainly am not among the worst. Lets go to the DA. You'll probably win but I bet I'll surprise you.
BTW, what's your in-game name?
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Im sorry, what is this "The Move" you guys are talking about ?
Maybe batfink can post another film link in this thread? I would describe the move like this: The bandit attacks from 6 o'clock with a superior energy state. The intended target makes a gentle, nose-low turn that's just inside the turn radius of the attacker. At the right moment, the target levels out, acquires the attacker from the side view, and puts a well-placed snap shot on the overzealous attacker as he overshoots.
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Sounds like i got a lot to learn in this area, never have succeeded to get a kill from a bnz'er missing me.
Thanks for the description, it was very helpfull <S>
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Well, the attackers I saw in batfink's films were not traditional bnz aircraft. Mostly 16s and N1ks, while batfink was in a 109K.
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http://www.freeroleentertainment.com/dudtaters.ahf
http://www.freeroleentertainment.com/reversek4.ahf
couple of really old 109K4 clips i still got hosted. Like shane says, I didnt invent this move at all, though i may have innovated it and demonstrated it more than anyone else. Not to mention winning advantages with it almost every sortie. The single most valuable defensive theory to counter a high con. (also i would like to refer to Steve's rope thread about now. Don't blame or demonish the guys who die in these clips. Everyone falls for this sooner or later, I know i have done more than once and i practicaly eat, sleep and breath the move.)
:salute
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http://www.freeroleentertainment.com/dudtaters.ahf
http://www.freeroleentertainment.com/reversek4.ahf
couple of really old 109K4 clips i still got hosted. Like shane says, I didnt invent this move at all, though i may have innovated it and demonstrated it more than anyone else. Not to mention winning advantages with it almost every sortie. The single most valuable defensive theory to counter a high con. (also i would like to refer to Steve's rope thread about now. Don't blame or demonish the guys who die in these clips. Everyone falls for this sooner or later, I know i have done more than once and i practicaly eat, sleep and breath the move.)
:salute
i think the move, or the initial part of it is fairly common as someone rolls out defensively and breaks to increase separation from the bandits... those of us who see all oppt'y as being offensive, have discovered that rolling back into the bogeys line provides us with a shot, however briefly, and if the was also trying to slow down, then you just might have acquired their 6, forcing them down and out or die.
it's kind of hinted at in here (june 99): http://homepage.eircom.net/~frontacs/WBStored/RollingScissorsvsBreakTurn.html
"For an example, when i fly the 109 attacking from above is absolutely necessary. So I begin my dive and watch my target pull into a sharp diving break turn, or even Split S. He has evaded my attack, but blown all of his energy and lost any hope of attaining an equal energy state to my own (unless it's a dragless Spit ). The targets who really scare me, and who have shot me down from an inferior position a few times, are the ones who do some variation of a scissors mentioned above. A barrel roll variation also works really well, and is so hard to hit. Reversing a disadvantage is not about gaining superior position, it's about gaining superior energy."
and also hinted at in here(same site, jan '99) - and lookee who's name appears: http://homepage.eircom.net/~frontacs/WBStored/ACMLagDisplacementRolls.html
"Has anyone in a Spitfire been killed by an FW190 after an energy pass and wondered how in the heck that bird got turned around and got on your six so fast?
Usually that would be DocDoom or Drex or GunJam in the ID. =)"
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wow, now there are some classic thread archives to look through. cheers shane.
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And that has relevence to this thread in what way?
If you look closer the only stat I'm consistently bad in is K/H due to where and how I fly and what i enjoy in the game. I also fly all of the plane set over time and I can't claim greatness in every plane in the game.
Still, I'm not claiming to be among the best but certainly am not among the worst. Lets go to the DA. You'll probably win but I bet I'll surprise you.
BTW, what's your in-game name?
it's relevant, how? well, for several comments from you in this thread:
...Last night I ran into a 109K-4, then later a 109G-14 that showed some of the most timid flying I have ever seen.......
...What were they thinking taking those planes up? It certainly couldn't have been fun for them the way they flew.
...If you do engage and break off, then IMO it's pretty dweeby to try to follow them home afterwards for the landing vulch.
... don't think I've ever really done that to any extent unless I was already low on fuel, low on ammo or already shot up, in which case I wouldn't have initiated another engagement either. H@ll, it took me years to get out of the habit of diving into me on 10+ odds alone. It's only been within the past year or so that I broke myself of that habit.
need i break it down further?
:noid
and my in-name game is shane08 (added the 08) when i returned in mid-aug after an 18mo break. Started AH in tour 14 coming from AW3 (started in '98) after AW millenium went pay for play and EA killed it. I don't doubt you have a lot of basic gaming skills - your stats indicate that clearly... i do however think you've rarely ever gotten out of that fighting-style comfort zone. Ironic coming from a self-proclaimed spit fan, no?
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it's relevant, how? well, for several comments from you in this thread:
need i break it down further?
:noid
and my in-name game is shane08 (added the 08) when i returned in mid-aug after an 18mo break. Started AH in tour 14 coming from AW3 (started in '98) after AW millenium went pay for play and EA killed it. I don't doubt you have a lot of basic gaming skills - your stats indicate that clearly... i do however think you've rarely ever gotten out of that fighting-style comfort zone. Ironic coming from a self-proclaimed spit fan, no?
I'm sorry. I still don't see where my stats are relevent to those comments.
1. It was timid flying. I am not a timid flyer, but I do spend time in the lesser populated areas of the map trying to find one-on-ones as I'm not part of a hoard squad. As I've always said, I also like ot hunt buffs and the climb-out and the hunt are sometimes time consuming.
2. As I've said, I fly every plane in the set every few months. On rare occasions where I'm totally uncomfortable in something I might not engage, but for the most part I'll go for it and see what happens regardless of the match-up.
3. I can only recount two times that I've followed someone home to vulch them on landing and both times it was buffs. I've never engaged, disengaged, then lurked behind someone in such a dweebish way.
4. Exectly as I stated.
Your stats aren't exactly uber either given how much I've heard of your skills. Your K/S slightly outpaces mine and your K/H is clearly better than mine.
Lets compare out past few camps since you brought it up:
Late War Tour 105 Fighter Scores for BaldEagl
Score Rank
Kills per Death + 1 3.94 155
Kills per Sortie 1.49 292
Kills per Hour of Flight 4.46 1324
Kills Hit Percentage 12.80 76
Kill Points 32692.38 125
Fighter Rank: 156
Late War Tour 105 Fighter Scores for Shane08
Score Rank
Kills per Death + 1 2.05 461
Kills per Sortie 1.65 215
Kills per Hour of Flight 7.45 365
Kills Hit Percentage 5.21 1255
Kill Points 12575.34 694
Fighter Rank: 325
Late War Tour 104 Fighter Scores for BaldEagl
Score Rank
Kills per Death + 1 3.20 237
Kills per Sortie 1.29 425
Kills per Hour of Flight 3.46 2105
Kills Hit Percentage 10.06 189
Kill Points 39704.21 93
Fighter Rank: 318
Late War Tour 104 Fighter Scores for Shane08
Score Rank
Kills per Death + 1 2.61 345
Kills per Sortie 2.11 131
Kills per Hour of Flight 8.06 315
Kills Hit Percentage 5.77 1033
Kill Points 17367.82 452
Fighter Rank: 193
Late War Tour 103 Fighter Scores for BaldEagl
Score Rank
Kills per Death + 1 2.21 463
Kills per Sortie 1.24 478
Kills per Hour of Flight 3.71 1967
Kills Hit Percentage 10.56 152
Kill Points 31994.99 219
Fighter Rank: 353
Late War Tour 103 Fighter Scores for Shane08
Score Rank
Kills per Death + 1 2.13 484
Kills per Sortie 1.90 185
Kills per Hour of Flight 10.30 109
Kills Hit Percentage 5.15 1311
Kill Points 4223.88 2085
Fighter Rank: 519
I joined AW in June '96. Was there until the end then switched over here immediately after.
Speaking of comfort zones; LA-7, meet Spit.
So... DA?
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Triple post
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Triple post... stupid BBs wasn't posting so I leave, come back and here's three posts of the same thing.
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would that be three seperate challenges or one times three? :P
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would that be three seperate challenges or one times three? :P
heh.
but in response to baldie... you can't whine about timid flying when you're one of those "survivalist" types who uses any excuse to rtb. this and your stats imply you're all about ranking.
i'm not saying you have zero mad skillz - you have great overall gaming skillz (but tip - read zazen's treatsie on ftr stats)... i just found this thread ironic.
as for the DA.. if you see me on, just ask. we can do whatever scenario floats your boat, as long as you don't claim running me out of gas as a "win." :aok
oh.. as for our stat comparison.. bear in mind i recently returned after a 18 month break.. tour 102. I'm no where near the level i used to be, nor as motivated... meh...
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OK. I watched the film. I reversed on Caldera 12 times in ~8 minutes then finally exited, probably out of ammo (but the stupid film viewer doesn't let you see that).
For the most part, our fight took place with us within 1.5K of one another although there were a couple of times it extended to 2.5K mostly near the end as Caldera tried to extend and I had to chase him back down. Through much of the fight I was reversing at under 1K (many reverses at 7-900).
I'm certainly not going to appologize or feel bad about using the K4's superior climb rate to try to beat a much nimbler aircraft.
This film is nothing for me to be ashamed of other than the fact I didn't get the kill and has absolutely nothing in common with my encounters last night. I stayed in and fought until I was out of ammo. None of these were BnZ passes. It was classic energy fighting with a less nimble AC against a more nimble AC both using their planes strengths to try to gain an advantage and, for the most part, remaining inside the box.
Bald nobody is expecting you to appologize or feel ashamed. I think the film shows you taking a safe approach to a fight much like the fight you described in your original post. You came in with an advantage and decided to take all the time you needed to maintain that advantage. Your not the only one that does it. I would however not call it a classic energy fight, in the respect that I have seen many others who I would consider to be excellent in the energy fighting realm press their attacks at a much more rapid pace. Taking almost a full minute to finally make another sweep and after he shows you his tail is fairly timid way to fight IMO and in my opinon were excellent examples of BnZ.
What I did see was a change in tactics on caldera's part in an attempt to try and end the stailmate that I saw happening in the film.
Again no need to feel ashamed and nobody here seems to be trying to make you feel that waybut it seems that you started this thread to complain about someone who tried to keep their advantage to a safe level when you have been known to do the same.
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Well said DKFF49 !!
:aok
Phil/OPP7755
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dkff... right, i watched the film too, i wouldn't call that e-fighting in the sense.. it was more of a running BnZ as caldera was apparently trying to get to base, and was purely in a defensive mode, refusing to climb too far up the ropes.
this would be a more classic e-fighting, i think.
http://www.speedyshare.com/619968645.html
temp vs niki starts at 1:47... had to kill a pony-b prior to that... took me about 3 1/2 mins to finally pop the niki. thankfully we were away from the main furball.
you'll see me working to gain some alt, while keeping the niki interested. yuo'll see me do a few high speed reverses, merge one turn and out, maintaining my speed.
the next to last you'll notice i slow down a bit, testing the niki (around 4:50) and then after separating one final time, i re-merge and chop the throttle to get inside the niki (who wasn't expecting it) for the kill.
the incoming F6F forced me to close the deal cuz i didn't want the sucker coming in and stealing it, lol.
I could easily have extended and alt'd on the niki, being in a temp, but.... i didn't want him to wander off back towards his buddies.
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I only turned for base at the end after B.E. did the same. The base seen in the film is actually the bish v-base (i had to change direction so he didn't get a freebie ack kill). I tried to run so he would come down and chase me. It was quite frustrating as i couldn"t climb up to fight him. I don't have a problem if he wants to fight that way. I only posted the film because it seemed quite like the flying he was complaining about in the start of this thread.
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I only turned for base at the end after B.E. did the same. The base seen in the film is actually the bish v-base (i had to change direction so he didn't get a freebie ack kill). I tried to run so he would come down and chase me. It was quite frustrating as i couldn"t climb up to fight him. I don't have a problem if he wants to fight that way. I only posted the film because it seemed quite like the flying he was complaining about in the start of this thread.
well, 11 mins is a tad.... long... to get a kill from an advantage.
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I'm giving 10-1 odds on Shane for the DA. Any takers?
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well, 11 mins is a tad.... long... to get a kill from an advantage.
8 minutes. The rest is me flying away.
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8 minutes. The rest is me flying away.
oh, right... and nobody died... i didn't watch it to the conclusion - my bad.
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oh, right... and nobody died... i didn't watch it to the conclusion - my bad.
Zing
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I tried to run so he would come down and chase me. It was quite frustrating as i couldn"t climb up to fight him.
I blew away an La-7 one night in the K-4 doing the same thing although it didn't take quite so long.
Really, I never knew that using your climb/E advantage to keep an an enemy pinned down and turning was a "lame" way to fly. I also thought that keeping him out of a guns solution/guns range was the wise thing to do. I guess in the future I'm supposed to flat turn my A8 with Zekes?
And, as I said before, reversing on average every 40 seconds is nothing like running from 15K to 30K then circling a sector before the first reversal, which was scenario one in my OP.
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oh, right... and nobody died... i didn't watch it to the conclusion - my bad.
Watch it from my perspective. You'll notice that the reason I was there in the first place is that I blew away a B-24 before ever engageing Caldera. Nobody died because Caldera did a good job evading each of my passes and couldn't get into guns range on his reversals.
In the end I flew away out of ammo, or at least out of cannons. There was no reason to remain at that point.
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Really, I never knew that using your climb/E advantage to keep an an enemy pinned down and turning was a "lame" way to fly. I also thought that keeping him out of a guns solution/guns range was the wise thing to do. I guess in the future I'm supposed to flat turn my A8 with Zekes?
When people complain about how you fly, it's a sign that you're doing something right. I get complaints from time to time too when I have an energy advantage and don't lose it.
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Watch it from my perspective. You'll notice that the reason I was there in the first place is that I blew away a B-24 before ever engageing Caldera. Nobody died because Caldera did a good job evading each of my passes and couldn't get into guns range on his reversals.
In the end I flew away out of ammo, or at least out of cannons. There was no reason to remain at that point.
i did.. u managed ur e extremely well, no one disputes that, but the overall flying was very cautious. did you watch the temp/niki film i posted? I was setting him up in advance. you were like, "craps i missed, let me try again" ad infinitum when he refused to play the dope at the end of a rope.
also, i've found it fun and challenging at times to fly the other guy into the ground.
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i did.. u managed ur e extremely well, no one disputes that, but the overall flying was very cautious. did you watch the temp/niki film i posted? I was setting him up in advance. you were like, "craps i missed, let me try again" ad infinitum
also, i've found it fun and challenging at times to fly the other guy into the ground.
Nope. Didn't see the film yet. At work. I'll look at it this evening.
And yes, I'll admit I was a bit cautious but I didn't want to let Caldera just latch onto my six either. That Ki held a significant turn advantage over me which is partially why I wasn't able to get a good shot on him. IIRC I did score a hit at one point but likely with the 7.9mm's, not the 30mm which would have resulted in an entirely different perspective on the fight.
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Allright, i watched the first 5 minutes of the film. Here's my initial reaction:
Although baldeagl was flying conservative in so far as he was preserving his energy advantage, caldera was also far more concerned with flying defense than trying to even the fight. It's not hard to dodge multiple bnz passes when you make no effort to equalize energy states. In this case, caldera was chopping his throttle and doing neg g barrel rolls to throw off baldeagle's aim (taters are hard enough to hit with as it is). That's no way to turn the tables. If baldeagl decided to slow down and start stall fighting, no doubt then caldera would have become more aggressive with his more maneuverable aircraft.
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just to make sure we are all on the same page here.
I don;t believe that film was put up to say that baldeagle's fighting preference is "bad" or to say that caldera is better. or that either one is more agressive than the other. What it was put up for or so it seems to me is to show that the one thing that baldeagle started the thread about is the very same thing he does in his bouts but only to a slightly lesser degree.
Nobody here is trying to berade him just pointing out this one simple point and it sounds as though you have just said that you agree with that statement.