Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Yenny on October 31, 2008, 01:45:31 AM
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well, actually i just wanted to show that the 51 is so so much more maneuverable then the 190s. That is all, Steve asked me to film some 51 flight stuff. So I decided to take a 51 up for furballing. Here is 1 out of 3 pick that steve pwned on me. 3 out of 3 51 sorties! omg all 3 of my 51s were picked by Steve! It was fun stuff though! Oh and I love the new model of that 262! i was pulling like 6-7G at 250 knts tnbin that thign and the wings were still there!
Oh yea I was kinda breaking off the niki to type=/ such bad call but couldn't resist it :(
http://files.filefront.com/BadSteveahf/;12209081;/fileinfo.html
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sorry dude, you told me what skin you had so I went lookin for ya. :salute
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=D it's okay 190 > P51 !
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The 190 isnt even in the same LEAGUE as a P-51.
RAce
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The 190 isnt even in the same LEAGUE as a P-51.
RAce
oh my.
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Yea I'll take a few on the nose for that one but I stand behind it.
:D
Race
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The 190 isnt even in the same LEAGUE as a P-51.
RAce
Could be, could be.
Could be the P-51 doesn't do anything better than a Spit or 109 than run, really, if we want to be honest, but oh well.
Could be that once you get past the e-noodle stroking, the ability to engage and disengage at will is kind of nice in the MA, and that is the strength of the Mustang AND Dora vs. 98% of the rest of the plane set. So they end up being flown in an almost identical style.
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I always get lucky with a P-51... I'm not sure if I have the sortie, but near the end, I went into a group of like 10 Rooks/Knits (Maybe bishops, I'm not sure if I was rook at the time or not) and furball. I come out of it and land 5 kills. :rock
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I've had some wonderful P-51 sorties that i will never top out. My greatest was 11 kills in one sorite no rearms and no damage. Was a nice furball and i was doing a mixture of TnB and BnZ. I never got to full flaps and i kept as much E as possible as we were outnumbered.
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The 190 isnt even in the same LEAGUE as a P-51.
RAce
I'll agree but not for performance issues. Simply because nothing has the range of a Pony but more importantly the views of the Pony it has the best all round and especially over the nose view compared to any other fighter. Making gunnery and SA all the more easier.
In addition to usual performance aspects that make it one of the best rides in the game.
<S>...-Gixer
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I'll agree but not for performance issues. Simply because nothing has the range of a Pony but more importantly the views of the Pony it has the best all round and especially over the nose view compared to any other fighter. Making gunnery and SA all the more easier.
In addition to usual performance aspects that make it one of the best rides in the game.
<S>...-Gixer
I think it is inferior to other late war rides. It certainly does have great views.
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Fwiw, I think the 190D-9 is superior to the P-51D at main arena altitudes. It's faster, climbs better, rolls better, and has more firepower. Where it falls behind is range and air-to-ground ability.
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I think it is inferior to other late war rides. It certainly does have great views.
It might be inferior in one aspect or another performance wise to other late model rides but overall it's very good. The point I was making is that it has the best views in the game especially over the nose and fuel range which are overlooked as a significant advantage compared to any other ride.
Views,fuel range,overall performance,six 50s and ammo to spare is what makes it one of the best rides in the game and above some other late war rides.
Of course then HT went and patched the F4U making it the best non jet ride in the game by giving the late war F4Us the performance of a pony plus the low speed performance of a zeke with it's uber flaps. Which is just hilarious every time I come across one. :rolleyes: :lol
<S>...-Gixer
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It might be inferior in one aspect or another performance wise to other late model rides but overall it's very good. The point I was making is that it has the best views in the game especially over the nose and fuel range which are overlooked as a significant advantage compared to any other ride.
Views,fuel range,overall performance,six 50s and ammo to spare is what makes it one of the best rides in the game and above some other late war rides.
Of course then HT went and patched the F4U making it the best non jet ride in the game by giving the late war F4Us the performance of a pony plus the low speed performance of a zeke with it's uber flaps. Which is just hilarious every time I come across one. :rolleyes: :lol
<S>...-Gixer
Ya, I get a kick out guys that fly the f4u then claim thate 5q drivers suck because they only fly an uber ride. hehehh. Now go watch the film I posted about Tec... it will make you laugh at least once.
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You forgot a few things Anaxogoras. The 190 bleeds E in hard turns far faster, lacks combat flaps, accelerates slower, far less armored, has a glass radiator, poor view, speed...barely, firepower.....even that one is a matter of opinion. Stability favors the 51 too. My personal best is 10 in a Bravo (no rearm) and 19 in a 51D (rearm). I have more counts of "How did you do that?" and "Your *^*&ing" than I care to remember too. The plane is far better at a lot of things than most would care to admit or learn how to do themselves. If the FM is weak I cant wait to see what she will do fixed!
Race
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accelerates slower, far less armored
incorrect.
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FWIW, I find the Dora the steadier gun platform of the two planes. 190s across the board seem to be very steady and lack nose bounce, even when you are "abusing" the control inputs trying to make a last minute adjustment for a snap shot.
But yeah, the forward views on the 190s do suck, a little bit more than they need to IMHO.
OTOH, I think Steve low-rates the Pony just abit. Sure, the Corsairs float like a butterfly, but there are plenty of situations where the F4U won't quite have the get-up-and-go to drag your butt out of an ugly multi-bandit situation, and the Mustang will.
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Dora's gun platform > the P51. Usually when I fly the Dora I only have literally .5 to 1 sec to fire. I usually only fire at 200 yards, on either snapshot or high speed pass. I am used to the D9 gun platform so I can't use any thing else. I have hard time aiming w/ the 50 cals and 30mm, or hispanoes etc. I've recall countles of time i fly spit ridin the enemy's 6 clock at 200 yards and I can't hit him because i keep overleading due to the fact that I'm used tothe D9 where you gotta pull a lot more lead cause the projectile rate is slower w/ its 20mm. I've sorties in D9 where i wrack up 20-26 kills w/o rearm. It just I am used to that platform and i can't adjust to any other plane. Just like the movie above, at 200 yards ez shot and I miss w/ the 50 cal because i'm not used to aiming it.
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i hate 190 so much rofl, its like a flying brick with wings
-BigBOBCH
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I've turnfought 2 La7's OTD, while in a Ta-152 (2 on 1, no help). They both were shot down and just to eliminate the "angles argument", I scraped water a couple of times doing less than 100 Indicated.
OddCAF was there and was literally speechless that I RTB'd, let alone shoot two La7's down. OddCAF had oil damage from one of them HO'ing him. Another CAF sqauddie was shot down after not listening and just "barreled in".
Planes aren't the "Yardstick" in this game. It's how you use it, that makes ALL of the difference. I turn Ponies, hell I turn EVERYTHING. IDGAF about BnZ, etc. I pay my monthly subscription to FIGHT. Some lose this simple concept very easily.
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^_^ killing newbies in La-7s aren't rly fighting !
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I turn Ponies, hell I turn EVERYTHING. IDGAF about BnZ, etc. I pay my monthly subscription to FIGHT. Some lose this simple concept very easily.
Turning EVERYTHING doesn't equate to Fighting..
<S>...-Gixer
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So how does that work exactly?
I've turnfought 2 La7's OTD, while in a Ta-152 (2 on 1, no help). They both were shot down and just to eliminate the "angles argument", I scraped water a couple of times doing less than 100 Indicated.
OddCAF was there and was literally speechless that I RTB'd, let alone shoot two La7's down. OddCAF had oil damage from one of them HO'ing him. Another CAF sqauddie was shot down after not listening and just "barreled in".
Planes aren't the "Yardstick" in this game. It's how you use it, that makes ALL of the difference. I turn Ponies, hell I turn EVERYTHING. IDGAF about BnZ, etc. I pay my monthly subscription to FIGHT. Some lose this simple concept very easily.
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Reason I said noob La-7s pilot is if they were good, it only take 1 to give you hell =). 2x of any plane vs one, and they know what you are doing, you almost got no chance. The constant one drag one tag, forcing you to break force you to have no E and just sitting there waiting to die=). But then again they were newbie!
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I've sorties in D9 where i wrack up 20-26 kills w/o rearm.
Film?
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OTOH, I think Steve low-rates the Pony just abit. Sure, the Corsairs float like a butterfly, but there are plenty of situations where the F4U won't quite have the get-up-and-go to drag your butt out of an ugly multi-bandit situation, and the Mustang will.
My point about the f4u is that, all-around, it's the best plane in the set. There may be anecdotal circumstances where another plane is better.
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Film?
Some of those sorties, I didn't really film it. I usually don't film my flight unless it's a DA 1 v 1 thingie. I do have a bunch of film of random stuff though. I guess i can get unrusty and film a few 20+ w/o rearm for ya =). I said 20-26 cause I have quite a few 20+ when I used to play this game like it was a job! but my best w/o rearm was 26, wrack the last 5 of them w/ the last 300 rounds of 13mm. Landed w/ 2% fuel. It was wild hehe.
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It might be inferior in one aspect or another performance wise to other late model rides but overall it's very good. The point I was making is that it has the best views in the game especially over the nose and fuel range which are overlooked as a significant advantage compared to any other ride.
Views,fuel range,overall performance,six 50s and ammo to spare is what makes it one of the best rides in the game and above some other late war rides.
Of course then HT went and patched the F4U making it the best non jet ride in the game by giving the late war F4Us the performance of a pony plus the low speed performance of a zeke with it's uber flaps. Which is just hilarious every time I come across one. :rolleyes: :lol
<S>...-Gixer
i see this posted allot lately but, i just don't see it in game, f4u, certainly does not have the slow turning ability of a zeke, i fight them all the time, and they are quite easy to kill, unless the stick really knows how to fly them, but that goes for every plane in AH.
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Some of those sorties, I didn't really film it. I usually don't film my flight unless it's a DA 1 v 1 thingie. I do have a bunch of film of random stuff though. I guess i can get unrusty and film a few 20+ w/o rearm for ya =). I said 20-26 cause I have quite a few 20+ when I used to play this game like it was a job! but my best w/o rearm was 26, wrack the last 5 of them w/ the last 300 rounds of 13mm. Landed w/ 2% fuel. It was wild hehe.
sounds like lots of vulching to me.
or just a buch of TALL TALES.
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^_^ pff ammo is never the issue, fuel is. But i'll dust the rust off and take em D-9 out for some killwhoring run and film it !
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I've turnfought 2 La7's OTD, I scraped water a couple of times doing less than 100 Indicated.
That's so addictive :lol
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i see this posted allot lately but, i just don't see it in game, f4u, certainly does not have the slow turning ability of a zeke, i fight them all the time, and they are quite easy to kill, unless the stick really knows how to fly them, but that goes for every plane in AH.
The zeke analogy is a bit of an exaggeration, as are the cries about it being terribly overmodeled, imo.
They are easy to kill only if you know to switch to energy tactics once they drop flaps.
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"Possible" and "Easy" are two different things.
The zeke analogy is a bit of an exaggeration, as are the cries about it being terribly overmodeled, imo.
They are easy to kill only if you know to switch to energy tactics once they drop flaps.
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^_^ killing newbies in La-7s aren't rly fighting !
I've gotten you within 5 seconds in "your l337 190" while in a "POS Ki-61". They weren't newbies, but hey hijack away!
I don't see you turning the Dora (and I'm not talking two complete turns, I'm talking more), keep picking.
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How do you make the Ta-152 counter the turn rate and radius advantage of the La-7 in horizontal fighting? I need to know these things darn it. :)
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How do you make the Ta-152 counter the turn rate and radius advantage of the La-7 in horizontal fighting? I need to know these things darn it. :)
Neither one were paying attention to their speed. I went 1/2 throttle and 1 notch of flaps, it's a decent turner. Going into the 2 on 1, I had resigned myself to "as good as shot down."
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The zeke analogy is a bit of an exaggeration, as are the cries about it being terribly overmodeled, imo.
They are easy to kill only if you know to switch to energy tactics once they drop flaps.
You and ink are approaching this from opposite sides. He thinks they're easy to kill because they try to turn with his HurriIIc. You go the opposite way and BnZ them to death when they get slow because your ride, whatever it is, can't turn with them like a Hurri.
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The zeke analogy is a bit of an exaggeration, as are the cries about it being terribly overmodeled, imo.
They are easy to kill only if you know to switch to energy tactics once they drop flaps.
Hogs are the easiest kills for me regardless of "what the other person does". Lag pursuit does wonders. Never seen your handle in game and would be more than happy to roll a Ki-61 against your Hog. (I'm assuming the "They" in your quote is directed at "Hogs")
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Recently, I took an A-20 up to 15,000 feet to intercept a raid into a V-base. As I arrived there, a friendly in a P-51 told me that a pair of Doras were headed my way (radar was down and I saw them only as distant dots). As we closed, both nosed over and dived underneath my Havoc. Before we actually passed, I executed a reverse into a lead turn. They didn't reverse as I rolled in 600 yards astern. I pursued hoping to goad them into a fight. Instead, they ran off and never returned.
I went back to the V-base, killed the high alt fighters and dropped down for the low stuff.
I'll never understand why two pilots in late-war fighters with a big performance advantage (75 mph faster) would flee from what is little more than a medium bomber. They had much more E and could have easily converted into the vertical. :huh
My regards,
Widewing
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I'm beginning to hate F4U's. They are the uber plane of the game. My only two deaths last night both came from F4U's (well... almost).
The first was actually a good fun one on one with me in an F6F until the guys squaddie intervened and killed me but I don't think I'd have won either way.
The second was with me in my Spit. I made the mistake of slowing down to turn fight the guy after killing two of his buddies. I wobbled, and had to unload which put him on my six but again, I don't think I could turn with him anyway.
As to the flying bricks and Ponies I had a really fun nose low rolling scissors fight last night in a 109A8 against a P-51D. The A8 is actually quite agile in a nose low attitude with speed. The Pony broke off after several turns and left the area. I was hoping for a conclusion to that fight but no such luck.
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How do you make the Ta-152 counter the turn rate and radius advantage of the La-7 in horizontal fighting? I need to know these things darn it. :)
Actually if you dont load the 152 with ridiculous amounts of fuel, (50% percent still yields you much more flightime than 100% in the La7) the La7 does not have a turn rate advantage, just the turn radius advantage. This makes turnfighting the 2 indeed intresting.
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Hogs are the easiest kills for me regardless of "what the other person does". Lag pursuit does wonders. Never seen your handle in game and would be more than happy to roll a Ki-61 against your Hog. (I'm assuming the "They" in your quote is directed at "Hogs")
Feeling good huh? I'd like to see that ki61 against mtnman or saber, comparable E states to start.
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Feeling good huh? I'd like to see that ki61 against mtnman or saber, comparable E states to start.
The Ki-61 is a "POS" Steve, didn't you know that? On top of that, I've fought those two and they were all great fights. Anything else?
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The Ki-61 is a "POS" Steve, didn't you know that? On top of that, I've fought those two and they were all great fights. Anything else?
Ya, did you kill them regardless of what they did? Comparable starting E states. You are beginning to sound like a person who feels he cannot be beat by anyone.
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I've gotten you within 5 seconds in "your l337 190" while in a "POS Ki-61". They weren't newbies, but hey hijack away!
I don't see you turning the Dora (and I'm not talking two complete turns, I'm talking more), keep picking.
hehe 5 secs huh? picking me while I'm ontop of the loops in the rolling scissors vs 2 spit 5 in a 152 doesn't count as fighting. It's true I usually try not to tnb Dora, I do sometime when I'm bored but usually I don't do it.
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hehe 5 secs huh? picking me while I'm ontop of the loops in the rolling scissors vs 2 spit 5 in a 152 doesn't count as fighting. It's true I usually try not to tnb Dora, I do sometime when I'm bored but usually I don't do it.
Wrong, I was co alt and flew behind you before easily pulling the trigger at less than 100. Why would someone like yourself "US Army", feel the need to LIE? Answer us that one.
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Just watched the film. Nice pick Steve, he didn't even see you :lol
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Ya, did you kill them regardless of what they did? Comparable starting E states. You are beginning to sound like a person who feels he cannot be beat by anyone.
That is because you are now allowing irrational thoughts and common sense to be overridden by something else. You obviously don't know me, as well as I know you. Sad. I never made that claim. You "made it for me". As for them, sure I've beaten them, but they've beaten me. That's the way this game works Steve.
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That is because you are now allowing irrational thoughts and common sense to be overridden by something else. You obviously don't know me, as well as I know you. Sad. I never made that claim. You "made it for me". As for them, sure I've beaten them, but they've beaten me. That's the way this game works Steve.
Uhhh OK. You said you kill them "no matter what they do". You made that claim, not me. Frankly, I must not know you like I thought I did. Your post in here seems full of braggadicio and pride. I find these traits distasteful, which is why Skyrock and I often clash, in spite of my fondness for him.
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Oh, fondnethh..
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Uhhh OK. You said you kill them "no matter what they do". You made that claim, not me. Frankly, I must not know you like I thought I did. Your post in here seems full of braggadicio and pride. I find these traits distasteful, which is why Skyrock and I often clash, in spite of my fondness for him.
Sure I said and I stand behind the fact that they ARE the "easiest kills for me to get". I rarely pick, let alone 8k and have historically had the success against them. Am I going to encounter Mtnman, AKChrispy (you forgot him), Sabre, AKDogg (ask him what a Ki-61 with less alt and misjudged E can do to his Hog, I've met him) every fight? Hell no, will I wince, whine and whimper to the forum thumping my chest?
No, I have more class than that.
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to the forum thumping my chest?
Well, like I said, this is the way I interpreted your words. Seemed out of character but then you said I obviously don't know you so I don't know what to think.
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why would I lie ^_^ we even had an arguement on that and I had to post something on it before. Something about lag could mess up who is the one that does teh collision if I remember correctly. I forgot whot he other 2 were though, was you me and 2 other biship?
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Just watched the film. Nice pick Steve, he didn't even see you :lol
Jackpot, baby!
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lol yea seriously it was a nice shot too =/
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lol yea seriously it was a nice shot too =/
I don't think he missed you with a single round. :)
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I'm beginning to hate F4U's. They are the uber plane of the game. My only two deaths last night both came from F4U's (well... almost).
And the Spit16 isn't the uber plane of the game? :rofl
As uber and lame as the F4U is post it's last patch, the Spit16 still walks away with the non perk ride uber award.
And no the F4U zeke isn't an exaggeration, nothing else can roll and float about like a zeke at extreme low speeds other then a F4U which is ridiculous for a aircraft of it's size and weight.
<S>...-Gixer
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And the Spit16 isn't the uber plane of the game? :rofl
As uber and lame as the F4U is post it's last patch, the Spit16 still walks away with the non perk ride uber award.
And no the F4U zeke isn't an exaggeration, nothing else can roll and float about like a zeke at extreme low speeds other then a F4U which is ridiculous for a aircraft of it's size and weight.
<S>...-Gixer
Sorry, my "silly poster" meter is blinking on this one...
For the record, the F4U CAN out-turn the Zeke. But only if the Zeke is too fast for his own good. Slow turning with a well-flown Zeke in an F4U is silly. The F4U may perform too well in slow flight, but it still can't compete with the Zeke. Zeke enjoys a 20% turn radius advantage (significant, in my eyes) has better acceleration, etc...
To think I'd will employ the same tactics for fighting a Zeke or Hurri as for fighting a Yak, Pony, 109, is nuts, or mis-informed.
To compare the performance of the F4U to an A6M immediately causes me to question the credibility (in my eyes at least) of the poster- sorry. I fly the F4U quite a bit, and can't get it to fly like I can get a Zeke to fly (maybe if I work at it a bit more???)
For the record (again) I don't claim the F4U FM is necessarily correct (or any other plane, for that matter). I have no way of knowing. I do know that under some pretty intense scrutiny, nobody could point a definitive finger at what was wrong with it, and back it with any real data. I personally have my doubts (but again, don't really know, and don't know how to prove one way or the other) that torque effects are too weak (for all planes?) Without anything concrete to present, these arguments are little more than witch-hunts (IMO). Could any plane in the set withstand similar scrutiny?
Blaming your success/failure on your opponents choice of plane is lame (IMO). They all have strengths/weaknesses and all can be beat. Almost every single "decent" fight I get into is decided in the end by tactics, rather than by plane choice. To blame the outcomes on plane choice is the easy route, and won't help anyone improve.
I fly the F4U because it's the F4U. Personally, I have little/no interest in the vast majority of the other planes, both past and present. I don't fly it because I like/dislike the FM, and I'd still fly "only" the F4U if the FM was changed. I think Steve feels the same about the P51. Steve is a tough cookie in the pony. It's about all I can do to dodge his attacks when we meet, let alone come out on top. The same can be said about many others.
Quite honestly, my 9 year old does well enough flying offline to make me suspect all the planes are too forgiving. Which of the planes in AH should he be able to fly with 5 minutes of instruction, barely able to reach the rudder pedals, and little/no understanding of the physics and tactics involved? (He's good at belly landing, since he doesn't need the rudder for that, hehe) I'm sure he'd be easy pickings for the majority of players in the MA, simply because of his lack of tactical knowledge and SA (even in the F4U). Of course, he'd be flying the same F4U as me, with the same PC, connection, joystick/pedals, distractions, carpet, and computer desk as me. That might lead me to believe tactics and SA are more important components to success than the FM is, even in the F4UZeke...
Maybe that would be the ultimate test!
MtnMan
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BTW, I'm not saying witch-hunts are without substance or value. I for one feel safer as a result of all the stake-burnings throughout history. Do we even have any witches left?
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Gixer didn't neccessarily say it outturns the zero- just that it has zero like qualities, which in fairness it does. The turning circle of an f4u with full flaps out is very similar to that of an a6m5 and smaller than a spit 1 (without flaps deployed), according to gonzo's charts. I don't think it's much of an exaggeration to say the f4u is zeke like, given it's small turning circle in addition to it's rock steady stability at low airspeeds.
From my own AH experience the moment i see an f4u deploy it's flaps i generally try to E fight it regardless of what i'm flying because it is so deadly at low speeds.
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Quite honestly, my 9 year old does well enough flying offline to make me suspect all the planes are too forgiving.
MtnMan
9 year olds have flown airplanes before...
Everything is easier when death isn't on the line.
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The 190 isnt even in the same LEAGUE as a P-51.
RAce
:huh Excuse me?!?
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Sorry, my "silly poster" meter is blinking on this one...
Maybe I'm silly in your opinion but now to some points of interest.
The F4U may perform too well in slow flight, but it still can't compete with the Zeke. Zeke enjoys a 20% turn radius advantage (significant, in my eyes) has better acceleration, etc...
I never said it could out turn a zeke, I said it has Zeke like performance at extreme low speeds.
To compare the performance of the F4U to an A6M immediately causes me to question the credibility (in my eyes at least) of the poster- sorry.
But you say yourself and every other F4U stick I know says the same "The F4U may perform too well in slow flight" So which is it?
For the record (again) I don't claim the F4U FM is necessarily correct (or any other plane, for that matter). I have no way of knowing. I do know that under some pretty intense scrutiny, nobody could point a definitive finger at what was wrong with it, and back it with any real data. Could any plane in the set withstand similar scrutiny?
No other plane has the same bag of tricks as the F4U especially the perk versions post it's last patch. The F4U performs far too well for a plane of it's size and weight at extremely low speeds under flaps. Then there is it's landing gear added to the equation which acts as the best Air Brake in the game that can be extended and retracted within seconds while still maintaing exagerated level of roll and low speed handling.
Blaming your success/failure on your opponents choice of plane is lame (IMO).
Well this silly poster has 84 kills to 20 deaths over last 3 tours against all F4U varients. And 79 kills to 24 deaths against the Dweeb16. All sorties in the Yak-T a 25 eny ride. Maybe the only lame part is sticks in two of the most uber rides in the game getting killed on avarage by a Yak-T 4 to 1.
I fly the F4U because it's the F4U. Personally, I have little/no interest in the vast majority of the other planes, both past and present. I don't fly it because I like/dislike the FM, and I'd still fly "only" the F4U if the FM was changed.
I don't care reasons why you fly the F4U and your probably one of the best F4U sticks I've ever come across. I only care that we have a plane in the set that is so far overmodeled compared to any other ride. The F4U use to be (prior to last patch) a rare ride to see around. Now it's one of the more common amongst US fighters, especially with score potatos and for very good reason.
Quite honestly, my 9 year old does well enough flying offline to make me suspect all the planes are too forgiving. That might lead me to believe tactics and SA are more important components to success than the FM is, even in the F4UZeke...
MtnMan
Yes of course all the planes are dumbed down for a computer game compared to real flight, I have real flight experience in helicopters and I can tell you that any PC based simulator doesn't even come within a bees dick of represnting helicopter flight... But even in a computer game with FM as basic as represented here one expects a certain realistic (within game modeling) representation of any given aircraft and the F4U currently sits outside that with it's overly effective flaps at extreme low speeds and landing gear air brakes.
And yes of course tactics and SA are most improtant to success but flying something thats over modeled makes the first two a lot easier then it probably should be.
<S>...-Gixer
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No other plane has the same bag of tricks as the F4U especially the perk versions post it's last patch. The F4U performs far too well for a plane of it's size and weight at extremely low speeds under flaps.
F6F... :noid
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F6F... :noid
I think you've had enough to drink for one day... :lol
<S>...-Gixer
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But you say yourself and every other F4U stick I know says the same "The F4U may perform too well in slow flight" So which is it?
Then there is it's landing gear added to the equation which acts as the best Air Brake in the game that can be extended and retracted within seconds while still maintaing exagerated level of roll and low speed handling.
The F4U use to be (prior to last patch) a rare ride to see around. Now it's one of the more common amongst US fighters, especially with score potatos and for very good reason.
When I say "may", I'm saying "maybe", "might" as in "I'm not positive one way or the other". I'm using "may" instead of "does" or "doesn't". There's no "which is it" answer, because I don't have enough facts to say "does or doesn't". If I did, I'd say it "does" or "doesn't" perform to well, rather than "it may" perform too well. For the record, I think it might perform too well at very slow speeds, but I have no way of proving it. The same seems to be true for many others (can't prove it), or we'd have seen data supporting that fact (saying it does perform too well). Do we have data proving that any of the other planes do or don't perform too well at low speed? Or are our instincts/beliefs seen as good enough?
The gear thing I don't use enough to really be familiar with. It's a last-ditch effort to slow down for me- a method I employ so extremely infrequently in a fight that I consider it a non-tactic. I do use it to slow down for landing, and in the old days I used it while dive-bombing. IMO, if I'm using gear in a fight I've screwed up big-time, and will soon be in the tower. I certainly don't see it as affecting me positively in a fight. When I teach people in the F4U, we use the gear for landing- it's never even crossed my mind to teach them to use it in a fight.
I don't see the F4U around any more than I ever have, but I don't keep an eye on usage stats either, so could easily be missing something. The only time I see "high" numbers of them is when a CV is near. I can only think of one score-driven person using F4U's a lot. But again, it's not something I pay attention to... Are there actually enough score potatoes using them to consider its use "common" for score potatoing?
MtnMan
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Gixer- you mentioned the gear being deployed and retracted within seconds, which is interesting because it brings to mind an issue I have with our "pilots". The FM of the pilot we all use, if you will. I'll post it in a different thread though rather than hijack this one further...
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My feeling about the F4Us is that it's way way overmodel. Under a good stick those things can out manuever most Spit5. Which is why I rarely fly them. I'm more of a LW bird, mainly because they are a lot harder to fly and master. 109K4 can take most F4Us in the vert, the only one that it couldn't is the F4U-4. I've spent countless hour in DA working on 109 v. F4Us, for my 109 to take on a good F4Us stick I'd have to take em vert. As soon as I drop flaps going into a stall fight I'm dead.
It's hard to believe that the F4Us are very stable at super slow speed, and they can point that nose straight up while doing 50mph and maintain control for a few seconds at that speed.
So I really really think that plane is overmodel, to me it's on the same caliber as spit 16s, just a bit better.
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It's hard to believe that the F4Us are very stable at super slow speed, and they can point that nose straight up while doing 50mph and maintain control for a few seconds at that speed.
So I really really think that plane is overmodel, to me it's on the same caliber as spit 16s, just a bit better.
Watching my films, I'd say the minimum "useful" speed for me in an F4U is around 120-130 mph. By that I mean I can do more than subtly redirect my flight path. Starting at a higher speed, sure, I can point my nose straight up, and let it drop to around 0mph. So can any other plane in the set. So can a 747. At 50mph you're 25mph below stall in the F4U, you're not purposely pointing the nose anywhere (or maintaining control) at that point.
Here's a film to illustrate. Watch my speeds. Trying for my first shot, even at over 90 mph I don't have much control. I'm coasting, and can't do anything beyond a subtle tweak of my planes "trajectory". I try anyway, (expecting to get pounded by the A20 at any moment, whom I had killed twice, and who was currently l missing an elevator due to my antics. I think he was holding a grudge...) and pay with a stall/spin that costs me 2400-2500 feet in recovery. Even though my speed at the top is 42ish when I fall off, I had no control beyond some rudder once in the low 90's or high 80's (full throttle, airflow over rudder even at zero airspeed). I can't pull out of my dive until I'm over 170mph. The slow speeds are misleading, because I'm not really in control at those points. I've directed my flightpath while at a greater speed so that in my low speed "coast" I'm pointing in a direction I want to be pointed in, but I'm not actually in control much below 107-110. I'm basically a rock tossed on a planned arch. I can't manuever comfortably much below 125, preferably not below 140. This is again illustrated by the fact that I can't even get out of the A20's way while doing 120mph. I knew he was there, but couldn't do anything...
Also note that the 109 pilot (one I greatly respect as an opponent, BTW) could have done things differently to alter the outcome.
I guess I have trouble believing ANY plane should just fall out of the sky because they stall. What should the F4U do when it gets slow? It drops its nose, and it rewards poor control inputs with a spin. The spin is recoverable with correct control inputs. It stalls around 76mph, but loses effective control before that. Basically, it does what the manual says it'll do.
I'll agree though, that it appears to be doing more at a slower speed than it really is. For one, watching the film you'd think I was slower than I was, simply based on the perceived ground speed. In reality, for a plane that stalls at 76mph to still have some control at 90mph, and "decent" control at around 120 is surprising how??? 50mph above stall the plane should do what, exactly?
http://www.mediafire.com/?yqag4ygy2jz (http://www.mediafire.com/?yqag4ygy2jz)
MtnMan
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Where the hang prop becomes important is in whoever stall out 1st eat it. In 109k4 I almost can't keep my nose straight up at wep because torque will kick in and force me to roll left and I couldn't go up further. Which is usually around 100 knts that happen. In the F4Us w/ wep on you're literally going up all the way til 50mph before you roll left due to torque (maybe even lower) I can't remember the exact speed. This is where it plays out really critically. As you pulling G spiralling up or the F4U have the ability to maintain on its bandit's 6 until it stall out.
In the F4U, usually the fight is down at stall speed, so this is even more important as you go vert in a stall fight trying to squeeze every last possible alt u can get on the rolling scissors etc. It plays a big advantage for how the F4U is modeled.
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So you're saying that the F4U hangs on it's prop too well? The 109 should be able to easily outclimb the F4U, especially once the F4U gets slow. If the F4U has enough speed to do a zoom climb on the other hand, and if the 109 goes up at an angle allowing the F4U to "cut across the corner" though...
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For all the talk about the F4U's torque, one thing to keep in mind is that the engine power compared to the size of the plane is NOT all that much. ALL of these single-engine fighters could try to flip you over if you were trimmed near stall speed and idle and suddenly cobbed throttle.
The one that gets me is how the La7, a ~7,000 lbs. airplane with 1,800 HP up front, seems to behave so torquelessly sometimes.
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For all the talk about the F4U's torque, one thing to keep in mind is that the engine power compared to the size of the plane is NOT all that much. ALL of these single-engine fighters could try to flip you over if you were trimmed near stall speed and idle and suddenly cobbed throttle.
The one that gets me is how the La7, a ~7,000 lbs. airplane with 1,800 HP up front, seems to behave so torquelessly sometimes.
Well, I agree that maybe the effect of torque is over-emphasized, but I also find it odd that it's perfectly OK to start an engine on full throttle with no adverse effects in AH. Or to go from idle to full throttle instantly on a take-off roll with no real problems either. Of course, combat trim seems to always conpensate for the full torque effect, even when no torque is present (cutting throttle on landing reduces torque, but trim ignores this). Maybe that dampens it enough that we don't see too many adverse effects.
And maybe that's necessary from a game standpoint.
I also wonder about the effect that the constant speed prop has on torque, since going to full throttle doesn't increase the RPM of the prop. I know the pitch changes, but I wonder what effect (if any) that has on "felt" torque.
MtnMan