Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Custom Skins => Topic started by: Tilt on November 06, 2008, 05:39:47 PM
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Kudos Greebo who's colour pallet and superb base skin I have pirated shamelessly.
Still WIP
Some dirtying up to do and a Guards emblem to craft.
I have gone with yellow surround on the main stars as per suggested on a B&W plate where this is obviously darker than the white regiment leader bands.
Yellow tail star is for effect. I have seen no data confirming it one way or the other.
(http://www.btinternet.com/~fulltilt/pics/pop1.jpg)
(http://www.btinternet.com/~fulltilt/pics/pop2.jpg)
(http://www.btinternet.com/~fulltilt/pics/pop3.jpg)
(http://www.btinternet.com/~fulltilt/pics/pop4.jpg)
(http://www.btinternet.com/~fulltilt/pics/pop5.jpg)
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very nice :D
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Sorry, but pasting some new markings onto the default skin seems like cheating to me.
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Yeah, I agree with Greebo. Taking a skin done by someone else, even the default bird, and putting different markings over the top is just wrong.
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Sorry, but pasting some new markings onto the default skin seems like cheating to me.
LOL I wish I knew even how to cheat.
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Sorry, but pasting some new markings onto the default skin seems like cheating to me.
Cheating? is it a contest?
I just want Yellow 01.
I am not here to gain kudos from being a creator my skill is but nothing beside yours.
I dont even want my name in the skin column you can even put A.Cheater in the column if you like.
as you know the default skin is the proper base marking all La5fn of 1944. Such skins "should" use it as the foundation or else we get poor uniformity.
In fact if you look here http://www.hitechcreations.com/ahhelp/skins.html (http://www.hitechcreations.com/ahhelp/skins.html) it talks about Modifying skins. Explaining how to down load them and then submitting changed versions of them.
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I'm sorry, cheating was a poor choice of word. You said what you had done in your post and I did not mean to imply you were being dishonest.
What I mean is that skinners put many tens of hours of work into a skin. The default La-5FN represents a month of my spare time, maybe 50-60 hours of work. There are around 60 layers of panel lines, rivets, 3D effects, colours, markings and weathering. Then someone comes along, spends a couple of hours altering it and calls it a new skin. This makes me feel cheated. It doesn't just devalue my work, it devalues the work of every other skinner who does it the hard way. I don't want to make a big deal about this and I'm not objecting to you submitting it.
BTW there is a vertical stretching effect on the top of the fuselage. This makes the stars appear distorted the further up the fuselage you go. If you resize the top row of stars about 30% smaller vertically you should be able to correct this.
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In fact if you look here http://www.hitechcreations.com/ahhelp/skins.html (http://www.hitechcreations.com/ahhelp/skins.html) it talks about Modifying skins. Explaining how to down load them and then submitting changed versions of them.
That refers to the fact that the cockpit, pilot, gear wells and some other internals are not modifed (normally) when doing skins.
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Well I dont want to devalue any ones work.
Neither do I want to spend what would be 100's of hours on a task that can be completed in far less. (100's of hours for me because I do not have the skill to do it quicker)
If I could do it in 2 minutes I would
So far I have taken about 4-5 hours (probably because I have such little skill)
I do not need or want to claim it as a new skin.
I do not need to have any reference to me as the creator. I post it here for any help or guidance in making it better
Thanks re the 30%. I could see the effect but was going to experiment with various %'s and indeed was only considering the top half of the stars to achieve it. I'll try it with the whole row of stars.
My view is that a culture that says only original work can be used is one that denies progress. There is no copyright here.
I disagree with fencer. It means exactly what it says. Skins are available to be down loaded for modification. I am modifying a downloaded skin.
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I disagree with fencer. It means exactly what it says. Skins are available to be down loaded for modification. I am modifying a downloaded skin.
Of course you do, to do otherwise would admitt wrong doing on your part. :)
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Well I dont want to devalue any ones work.
Neither do I want to spend what would be 100's of hours on a task that can be completed in far less. (100's of hours for me because I do not have the skill to do it quicker)
If I could do it in 2 minutes I would
So far I have taken about 4-5 hours (probably because I have such little skill)
I do not need or want to claim it as a new skin.
I do not need to have any reference to me as the creator. I post it here for any help or guidance in making it better
Thanks re the 30%. I could see the effect but was going to experiment with various %'s and indeed was only considering the top half of the stars to achieve it. I'll try it with the whole row of stars.
My view is that a culture that says only original work can be used is one that denies progress. There is no copyright here.
I disagree with fencer. It means exactly what it says. Skins are available to be down loaded for modification. I am modifying a downloaded skin.
No disrespect but if you don't have or want to take the time to make your own skin then you shouldn't try to make one by putting new markings on someone elses work. What you're doing IMO is kind like plagiarising. You take someone else's hard work and just cover up a small part to make it you own. You could have just asked greebo or even someone else to make it . By the time you're done greebo would have done more work on that skin then you did.
Its like someone downloading someones sound pack, changing out one planes sounds then upload it on here and call it their own.
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You take someone else's hard work and just cover up a small part to make it you own.
I am not claiming it as my own plse read above (what is the opening line on this thread?).
In fact I am very up front in what I am doing...........unashamedly so
You could have just asked greebo or even someone else to make it .
I have..in february
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,226439.0.html
even more so
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,244005.0.html
To be frank I dont se anyone else equalling the default (base) skin in terms of accuracy. It is after all taken straight from page 69/70 of the Erik Pilawskii study on the matter. It is of such quality that many hours could be spent and never equal it. It should be the base for all La5FN's except the few that were at kursk in mid 43.
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You using his while skin and only changing the markings is just like stealing. You say you're not claiming it as your own but that is exactly what you are doing when you submit it or post picture here. Admitting what you are doing doesn't make it any less wrong.
Do what you want but if I were you i would try to make the whole thing yourself no matter how bad or how long it takes. Three vet skinners have stated their opinion. When it is in game and people see it they will think you did all the work when that is not the case. What will happen when someone tells you they like your skin? As I said do what you want but if you do all the work in making a new skin you will get more respect then what you are doing right now. :salute
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(http://www.btinternet.com/~fulltilt/pics/pop6.jpg)
After ajdusting the upper stars.
Infact I have split them in two compressing the lower half by 30% and the upper half by nearly 45%.
Latterly I have compressed the upper part of the 0 and the 1 as well as the point of the star.
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I have reconsidered my decision not to object to this skin Tilt and am going to PM Skuzzy and ask that he not accept it. If he agrees with me then either you can do this skin from scratch like every other skinner does, or I will do it.
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If you want to do it Greebo I will stop all work immediately. You will make a far better job of it than I will.
If you decide you wish to I will send you all my pathetic attempts todate.
If not then I would continue to use the base skin I have modified. You see I fundamentally disagree with the idea that material that is freely available should not be used.
I remember a post some time a go where a fellow asked if any one who had done all the rivit lines on some plane or other could copy them to him so he could make the skin he wanted.
He recieved the rather indignant reply that this had taken many hours work and was not going to be freely given out and that he too should do all this work too.
Well it was his work and I cant deny it his was his to withold.
I saw that at the time as a total lack of community spirit. Basically the attitude was I've done all this work, its mine and no one else can benefit from it but me.
Yet who was "benefitting"? and how were they "benefitting"?
All I could see is that the rivit layer was being witheld purely for jealously guarded Kudos. Whilst the community benefited from the complete works of a few it would not get the combined works of many.
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I would say that anyone who wants to spend many tens of hours of their spare time producing skins for the community is already showing plenty of community spirit. The only payoff for all that work is the kudos you get from the community. There are only 15 slots per plane anyway and 1 or 2 skinners can fill those very quickly.
I'm happy to do the Popkov La-5FN for you Tilt. In fact I was going to anyway until you posted a while back that you were working on one.
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If someone, like you Tilt, will not take the time to do the easiest thing, the panel lines and rivets, then they are not going to take the time to do a well researched complete job on the skin.
I have 50+ skins in game. If you want, feel free to not use them. My opinion still stands.
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I have 50+ skins in game. If you want, feel free to not use them. My opinion still stands.
and they all look like poo. :P
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Yeah that brown color is rather catching!
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I'm happy to do the Popkov La-5FN for you Tilt. In fact I was going to anyway until you posted a while back that you were working on one.
Then I will await your skin Greebo with thanks and an assurance that any assistance I can give will be gladly given.
The only request I would make is that it is yellow 01 and not a white 01 as some have recorded. My research ( and yes fencer even I would say it is considerable on this subject) indicates that the colour of the star surround is still open to debate either a "dirty" silver or a yellow but not the same as the pair of white bands behind it. I leave this and all else to your judgement.
I work with an old version of paintshop pro 5 and have the layered skin saved in various 2048 x2048 .psp files upon which I have layers masking out some of the default skin and adding the stars and bands. If this can be of help please advise. Obviously with the original layered work you will not have to modify background layers as I have.
My priority here is Yellow 01. My fear is that you are now less than motivated. My trust and hope is that you will produce to your usual superb standard.
PS even when I said I would work on 01. I also said I would use your default. I have never represented my efforts otherwise.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,244005.0.html
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Gee I never thought I would see such artistic hissy fits here!!!
None of your complaints have merit because none of you copyrighted your work. When you put it out there free gratis it is in the public domain and available as such.
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I understood your comment in that thread to mean you would use the same colours I was using Tilt, not that you were using my skin. I am sorry about this misunderstanding and I will of course do the best job I can on the skin.
As for copyrighting skins Hwkeye, that is ridiculous. The only place to use them is in the Aces High arenas and they have to be approved by HTC to get in there. I would like to think that HTC would require that the skin is primarily the work of the person submitting the skin to be approved, but I could be wrong about that.
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"Ridiculous"? I thought the reaction to Tilt's use of the base skin came close to that description! I was personally dismayed at how he was treated particularly in light of the credit and praise he gave going into his post.
Honestly, having praised the skinners here in the past, and not wanting to take anything away from their contributions to the AHII community, my copyright comment was made more on a legal level and really meant to explode the idea that anyone is 'stealing' or somehow cheating but using non-copyrighted materiel (skins created by community members for the use of other members in this case). I assume that HT holds the copyrights and any patents to Aces High II and therefore must assume that as long as skins are used within the context of the game there is no infringements. I also suspect that when a skinner submits a skin for approval they also know that they are giving up their rights to their work and that HT and HiTechcreations have full use of that artwork should they deem it useful to do so. That would include the use of the skins as a basis for the work of other community members unless HT has a specific policy that prohibits that use.
From Wikipedia: "Copyright is a legal concept, enacted by governments, giving the creator of an original work of authorship exclusive rights to control its distribution for a certain time period, after which the work enters the public domain. Generally, it is "the right to copy", but usually provides the author with other rights as well, such as the right to be credited for the work, to determine who may adapt the work to other forms, who may perform the work, who may financially benefit from it, and other, related rights. It is an intellectual property form (like the patent, the trademark, and the trade secret) applicable to any expressible form of an idea or information that is substantive and discrete. Copyright was initially conceived as a way for governments in Europe to restrict printing; the contemporary intent of copyright is to promote the creation of new works by giving authors control of and profit from them."
Peace Out!
Hwkeye
"Imitation is the highest form of flattery”
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I'm with Hwkeye on this, on all points. :aok
Fencer and Greebo - you both do excellent work, and you can be sure the community recognizes this.
Tilt... by all means, keep working on the LA skin(s) in whatsoever manner you choose... we need more :rock
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I'm with Hwkeye on this, on all points. :aok
Fencer and Greebo - you both do excellent work, and you can be sure the community recognizes this.
Tilt... by all means, keep working on the LA skin(s) in whatsoever manner you choose... we need more :rock
I don't have to worry about it.. :aok As my skins are not available in the format necessary for someone to plagiarize them. Which is why I don't post them to AH-Skins. I have seen several skins put up here represented as "new work" which were nothing more than colors thrown over someones upload to AH-Skins.
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And HTC makes the determination as to which skins make it in-game, and once they are in-game, they're free for anyone to modify in whatever manner, and if submitted, up to HTC to accept or not.
"In the export directory, view the .bmp's and decide which ones you wish to modify.[/i] Copy the files that you will be modifying from the export directory to the working directory you created in step 3. IMPORTANT: Copy ONLY those files that you will be changing."
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And HTC makes the determination as to which skins make it in-game, and once they are in-game, they're free for anyone to modify in whatever manner, and if submitted, up to HTC to accept or not.
"In the export directory, view the .bmp's and decide which ones you wish to modify.[/i] Copy the files that you will be modifying from the export directory to the working directory you created in step 3. IMPORTANT: Copy ONLY those files that you will be changing."
What it is refering too for the "ones you want to modify" are the plane, cockit, pilot, gauges, bullet hots, blood, oil, bent props, running props etc etc.. bitmaps which are exported and saved on your HD when you do that. Only the default skins can be viewed this way. And they cannot modify any skins other than those which are default, unless the person who submitted the skin has uploaded it to AH-Skins or given it to someone else.
So no, technically they are not free for anyone to modify. And they are the property of HTC once they are submitted. All they give is permission to modify the default skin. Greebo is asking that his work, for HTC, not be used in the manner that Tilt started too. That is what this boils down too.
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What tilt was doing isn't breaking any laws but that doesn't make it right. Us skinners spend hours upon hours of work making our skins and for someone to do what hes doing makes it look like he has no respect for others work. If he was doing that to one of my skins I would be on the phone with HTC the second I found out about it demanding they did something about it.
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isn't the skin base tilt is using the HTC default (made by Greebo?)? I can see that bitmap when I "save default," so I'm sticking with HTC's published permission to modify as I see fit, so to speak. I'm unsure as to the validity of your claim that this particular bitmap is "unmodifiable."
i see two fairly comparable la5 skins in the "default" and greebo's 229IAD skin... only minor modifications in some of the camo areas and maybe a few scuffs tidied up here and there. the most notable difference is... the markings.
now disregarding the fact that greebo also did the 229IAD skin, anyone with a modicum of skill (still more than i possess) could have put the 229IAD markings on the Default and submitted it. Sort of like what Tilt is doing, no? And exactly what Greebo apparently did.
I dunno where Tilt got the base skin to work with, but if it was from "HTC" then i see no plm with what he is doing. If Tilt got it from AH-Skins, then I guess Greebo needs to reconsider his modus operandi and bring it more into line with yours.
the point being, I think greebo (and to a lesser extent, initially, you) are getting your noses bent out of shape in regards to Tilt who was very forthright and upfront (unlike some of the others you've alluded to.)
Point remains, if Tilt is working from the HTC default skin, you have no valid claims. If Tilt is working from something Greebo put up on AH-skins or something, he was never less than upfront about it, nor wanting to steal Greebo's thunder.
again.. anyone can modify whatever .bmps found in the default skin... *any* .bmp and it's up to HTC to accept or not.
Tilt never did anything wrong in my opinion, and from a legal standpoint none of you skinners have any actionable claims. if you're scared about someone "stealing" your work, don't share the actual files with anyone, this includes posting them on AH-skins (sure, post screenies, but not the actual files). this way, as fencer says, skinners work is more protected from "abuse" since they'd be inaccessible.
And bear in mind, if you post those files for off-line use, then someone just may plagarize your work. good luck proving it, tho' it'd take little more than different markings, or a few camo line/color adjustments to make it "different" enough, if you even had the foresight and legal protection of copyrighting your "off-line" files.
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Greebos default and 229IAD skins are totaly different. If you go to the hanger and set your convergense and toggle between them youll see that they are. He just used his own template for both of them. I do the same with my skins and Im guessing that most other skinners do to.
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FYI
I am very happy Greebo is doing Yellow 01 he will make a better job than I.
I did a yellow 01 for AH1, submitted it and had it accepted but when I saw kweassa's version it was obviously better than mine. I asked Skuzzy to use Kweassa's
All default skins are available for modification from the hanger within game. (just select and click a button) In this instance Greebo had crafted the default skin. I was not using his other skins because I cannot access them (simply) this way. My challenge then was to find a pallet that added the yellow I needed whilst not wrecking the default skin.
I had done this to my satisfaction recently.
Using the default skin this way there is a compromise which Greebo (who has the original artwork) does not have to make. I rendered my modifications at 2048 x 2048 and then shrank it back to 1024 x 1024. But in using the default download I start with a 1024 x 1024 and have to double its size. Loosing some fidelity in the process.
Also I have to then add layers masking and covering some of the stuff on the original skin. Greebo only has to peel off the layers he has on his original work.
Greebo's superior skill to one side, he has the best tools and starting artwork to do the best job.
Its the same choice as before (for me).
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not for the quibbles and bits...
the difference as i mentioned before was in markings (including the spinner color), varying slight camo adjustment(s), some fiddling with panel lines and transparencies and perhaps a bit of adjustment on the wing root scuffs.
minor stuff.
without referencing anything, from this perspective (don't forsee major changes from another perspective, maybe the bottom... maybe...) :
which one is default?
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The one on the right is the default made by...... you guessed it greebo. The one of the left with the different colors, different marking, different camo, and different paint chiping is his 229IAD skin. That means he redid almost everything bit the panel lines, rivets, bolts, and some weathering. He used HIS template to make another skin just like he, myself and others do. It saves us hours of tedious work when we want to make two or more skins for one plane. He isn't using someone elses work and trying to pass it off as his own.
You don't get it because as far as I know you've never made a skin. So I ask you this. Spend a few dozen hours making a skin and then let me change just one thing on it and submit it like I did all the work and see how you feel about it. Until then you really don't have any thing to say because people have a right to get POed when others try to steal their hard work.
And before you say it wasn't my work being used that's right it isn't, but knowing what skinners go through to make these skins I feel its wrong what tilt was doing, and its even more wrong for someone who has never made one to come in here and try to voice his opinion.
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The one on the right is the default made by...... you guessed it greebo. The one of the left with the different colors, different marking, different camo, and different paint chiping is his 229IAD skin. That means he redid almost everything bit the panel lines, rivets, bolts, and some weathering. He used HIS template to make another skin just like he, myself and others do. It saves us hours of tedious work when we want to make two or more skins for one plane. He isn't using someone elses work and trying to pass it off as his own.
You don't get it because as far as I know you've never made a skin. So I ask you this. Spend a few dozen hours making a skin and then let me change just one thing on it and submit it like I did all the work and see how you feel about it. Until then you really don't have any thing to say because people have a right to get POed when others try to steal their hard work.
And before you say it wasn't my work being used that's right it isn't, but knowing what skinners go through to make these skins I feel its wrong what tilt was doing, and its even more wrong for someone who has never made one to come in here and try to voice his opinion.
I can voice my opinion from an end-user perspective and opine on the legalities of your whines.
the point is, this situation is much ado about nothing. If Tilt is using the default .bmps to work "yellow 1", then none of you have a valid complaint, merely a high signal to noise ratio whine.
And since Tilt is, and also well within the permissions granted by HTC, I suggest you step back a little and CYA in regards to non-default skin files.
Stop trying to make Tilt come off in a bad light - he's been anything but.
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What tilt was doing isn't breaking any laws but that doesn't make it right. Us skinners spend hours upon hours of work making our skins and for someone to do what hes doing makes it look like he has no respect for others work. If he was doing that to one of my skins I would be on the phone with HTC the second I found out about it demanding they did something about it.
But it doesn't make it wrong either. No one, least of all Tilt (based on Tilt's comments elsewhere), wants to take away from what you and other skinners are doing. As for the whole 'respect' issue I don't think it IS an issue but this thread has now MADE it one!
The tone says the following to others: "Newbies not wanted. We know what we are doing and you don't. Please do not attempt to add new skins to the game unless you are prepared to meet our standards as we are the ones with the experience. As a matter of fact just tell us what you want and WE will do it for you. And oh, by the way if the skin you want is based on too old a skin, or we feel the skin is too hard to work with them we hold the right to not do the skins."
Have I left anything out?
All you guys have is our respect. How about trying to be inclusive and work with folks. Try it, you might like it!
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The tone says the following to others: "Newbies not wanted. We know what we are doing and you don't. Please do not attempt to add new skins to the game unless you are prepared to meet our standards as we are the ones with the experience. As a matter of fact just tell us what you want and WE will do it for you. And oh, by the way if the skin you want is based on too old a skin, or we feel the skin is too hard to work with them we hold the right to not do the skins."
That is exactly what I thought when I started doing this back in the fall of 2005. In fact it appears that way at times still, even to me. So I cannot argue with you and would in fact agree to a point. I would not personally do any of the "AH1" skins as they are bound to be replaced with new 3D models in increasing numbers.
What you do see here, if you look for it, is that people are willing to help those who put an effort forth on their own. Read the forum, and not just post 50 questions which can be found. I read every thread on skin creation from back when the forum was created and learned alot. I recommend that to anyone starting skinning.
I had a couple guys who were real interested in Allied A/C who were trying hard and had alot of good questions. I sent my basic P-51D, P-51B and P-47D40 skins complete with all layers and walked them through some of the basics and how I put things together. I have spent some time on the phone with a couple guys talking over the basics and trying to help. All that I asked in return was that they try and fill some of the holes in the plane set, outside of their basic interest. I have some friends who are doing German A/C who I am sharing some of the things I have tried that have worked.
Most skinners are not against sharing on how to do it, but most are against someone who wants to just paint a few things on top of one of their skins and call it complete.
Tilt is evidently very knowledgeable about LAs and has put effort into research, unlike alot of the first time skinners. If he wanted to do an LA-7 I would not have any problem sharing my template with him as I have others on different aircraft.
Now will someone else do some TA152s? Thanks!
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It would be nice if someone at HTC would chip in to this thread and say what their policy is on this matter. I haven't had any replies to my PMs on this issue. How much modification does someone have to do to the default, or for that matter any other skin done by another player, in order to have it accepted for online use? Can they just change the squadron code and have it accepted?
As for being reluctant to help newbies, that is not the case. I have posted in here with tutorials on panel lines, weathering etc. I have also helped out skinners with their skins, offering suggestions and even reworking parts of them myself. A couple of times I have sent my complete template to a skinner who I trusted to use it only to see how I worked. I used to post templates to AH Skins. One or two of them are still current and I have no objection to anyone using them. I went off that idea because as someone (Fester?) pointed out all templates led to was some really crappy skins with good panel lines. It also undermined skinners who did 100% of the work themselves. I posted my skin on AH skins partly to help any skinners who wanted to mine them for ideas. Not any more though.
There is never going to be much variation on an La-5FN skin. There was a standard two tone grey disruptive scheme which was altered only slightly by different factories. Even so, I make an effort to vary it a bit for every skin. The guy painting the plane in the factory was never going to 100% accurate every time. Same thing with the paint chips, a long time ago Waffle called a bunch of my skins "cookie cutter" skins. The skins had different schemes but no variation in paint chips or weathering. Ever since then I've made an effort to vary the more visible stuff a bit for every skin.
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The tone says the following to others: "Newbies not wanted. We know what we are doing and you don't. Please do not attempt to add new skins to the game unless you are prepared to meet our standards as we are the ones with the experience. As a matter of fact just tell us what you want and WE will do it for you. And oh, by the way if the skin you want is based on too old a skin, or we feel the skin is too hard to work with them we hold the right to not do the skins."
This is a fair appraisal of a lot of what happens here but there are arguments for both sides.
I don't want to be harsh but there are some absolutely rubbish skins in this game... When people post threads with half-arsed skins (not a jab at anyone here, just a general comment).... it's.... annoying, the spots for skins are very limited and seeing them crammed full of watermelon is frustrating.
The thing with starting from scratch is that it encourages you to research things. For example, I re-did the rivet layout for the 109s... There are hardly any that over-lap with the default and I spent hours pouring over books and the internet getting the best possible information on where the rivets should be and how they should have looked.
Had I not been forced to do the whole lot myself, I'd have been very happy with the default rivet positions and as such, you can see the point of a lot of people here.
Borrowing other people's work leads to sloppiness and laziness, no matter how hard you're prepared to work on the differences.
Having said that, I have had nothing but really, really useful help with any and all questions I have asked with regards to skinning, history and anything else to do with this stuff. The small group of skinners we have here are very helpful when you're making the effort.
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Yep Iv helped xasthur with a few things since hes started skinning, and I have no problem helping others like him who need help getting off the ground. They come in and try, they do their research, don't ask stupid questions. The only people I don't help are those who come in here and ask "so how do I make a skin?". There are to many tutorials out there to just come in and ask that.
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There is never going to be much variation on an La-5FN skin. There was a standard two tone grey disruptive scheme which was altered only slightly by different factories. Even so, I make an effort to vary it a bit for every skin. The guy painting the plane in the factory was never going to 100% accurate every time.
The same could be said across both Lavochkins in game. With all due respect to the default La 7 skin and Airmesses sterling work it is now clear that infact, the default colour pallet for the default La5FN skin (or something very similar when some yellows are added) should also be used for La7's.
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I've pretty much done the Popkov La-5FN. The photo below is the only known primary source for this aircraft. Studying it very carefully revealed quite a lot. The spacing of the markings can be determined by the hatches on the fuselage, the rear white stripe just touches the fuel hatch and the rear of the "0" crosses the radio hatch. The red on the kill marking stars is much darker than the red on the national insignia. The kill stars were probably freshly repainted for the photo. The area just below the canopy also looks like it has been freshly repainted, maybe it was badly chipped. The light/dark grey camo borders are a fair bit different from anything in the Pilawskii book, but I found some other photos of similarly painted La-5FNs and used them as a template for the rest of the skin.
I've taken screenshots of the skin, greyscaled it and tried to adjust the colours to match the photo. The red on the insignia has been faded and the lighter of the camo greys darkened a bit. I'm not so sure the colour of the star surrounds and tactical number was yellow. I've included screenshots of these areas in both yellow and badly faded white, both in colour and greyscaled. Both the grey scaled shots look the same and match the shade of the photo pretty well. My feeling is that it is more likely to be white, based on the fact that a profile of his plane that Popkov signed had the markings in white. However I'll go with whichever colour you prefer Tilt.
(http://www.gfg06.dial.pipex.com/screenshots1/La5FN_Popkov.jpg)
(http://www.gfg06.dial.pipex.com/screenshots1/Popkov_colour_comparison.jpg)
(http://www.gfg06.dial.pipex.com/screenshots1/Popkov_La5FN.jpg)
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Yup I know pilawskiiis book and all Osprey books show a white 01.
I would be very willing to accept that the star surrounds may be off white.
Seidls book has a forward by Popkov and a very large section on Popkovs personal history. I am sure popkov would have read that section which is across pages 174/5/6.
Here is the same picture you have on page 174 note the wording underneath.
(http://www.btinternet.com/~fulltilt/pics/page174.jpg)
Note the photograph source. The original is with Seidl
Here is the colour plate from the profile section.
(http://www.btinternet.com/~fulltilt/pics/yel01.jpg)
I realise that artistic licence may have been used in the detail of the colour plate. But Knowing that Popkov helped in the research (at least to his own history) wrote the forword. I would cross reference the naming of the craft yellow 1 with the colour plate and Popkovs involvement.
Seidls book can be found here
http://www.amazon.com/Stalins-Eagles-Illustrated-Schiffer-Military/dp/0764304763
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BTW it looks like the canopy hood has been removed for the photograph, We should be able to see the rear edge of the hood behind/at the line of the rear armoured glass
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Hobby vista also is/was confused.
In the section entitled
Corrections for H.Morgan's Osprey Vol.#15 Color Plates
This illustration shows Popkov's La-5FN "01". In the Winter of 1943-44 "Yellow 01" was finished originally in a solid AMT-11 livery, then was subsequently completed in the typical temperate two-color livery with AMT-12 over that. The stars on the fuselage and tail were yellow-bordered types, and the twin bands were done in white. The spinner at this time might still have been dark blue (it was this color originally), and the fin/rudder might not yet have had a white 'tab' on the tip. Popkov did indeed later fly another La-5FN numbered "01", but no useful photograph exists of this machine.
http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/Markings/osprey_plates.php
This is in fact pilawskii's site and as such it now suggests that the fuselage stars and numerics should be in yellow as you have shown in the full plate above.
but then in the decals section of the site he admits the following
La-5FN "Yellow 01", Vladimir Popkov, 5 GIAP, 1944: Another erroneous attempt at Popkov's machine, probably taken from the Osprey book color plate. Popkov's aircraft was finished in a typical AMT-11/-12/-7 scheme. There is still debate over the colouration of the numerals and star trim, with the view split between yellow and dirty white. The spinner is now known to have been white, as well.
http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/Markings/Decals/fighters_part01.html
and
http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/Markings/Decals/fighters_part02.html
From this I feel
1) numerics are yellow
2) star surrounds may be yellow or may be off white.
3) whether there is a guards emblem or not is unclear
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regarding the hood rail.
here is a picture I took of White 77 in Prague. ignore the camo its totally wrong but look to the canopy rail. Its not painted at all other than a production black metal colour that would be well greased to permit the hood to slide back and not jam in an emergency.
(http://www.btinternet.com/~fulltilt/pics/prtcockr.jpg)
The black finish does not extend to the rear "window frame"
Note also the hood frame when its closed. OK this is an La7 but it will not be so different in this area. hence my opinion that the hood is missing from Popkovs picture.
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Well I'm happy to go with whatever combination of colours you prefer Tilt. I don't think there will ever be a definitive answer for this skin. The dark canopy rail area seems to be unique to this plane in La-5FN photos I've looked at.
The profile signed by Popkov can be seen in this thread:
http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?PHPSESSID=42ea68e8a75f283978834052669ef944&topic=201.0
I can email you the skin if you'd like a closer look. Here's an in-game screenshot:
(http://www.gfg06.dial.pipex.com/screenshots1/Popkov_La5FN_SC1.jpg)
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Nice link. With some data I have not previously seen. I am beginning to seriously doubt some of my other sources.
It would be a brave fellow to suggest Milos Vestik got it wrong.
I think we can definately add
White tips to to the props
White roots to the props
White front to the cowl rim.
and for the sake of accuracy I think we had better (and I say this reluctantly) rename the thread "off white 01".
(which is particularly annoying because I could have used your original colour pallette for that :t)
great work as always Greebo
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This is the latest version with those changes added Tilt:
(http://www.gfg06.dial.pipex.com/screenshots1/Popkov_La5FN_SC2.jpg)
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Not as purty as the yellow version but as accurate as we can lay claim to..........
Nice work Greebo..wish I had your skill wtg
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Not as purty as the yellow version but as accurate as we can lay claim to..........
and so the nail got hammered down. :noid
looking forward to seeing it in game. :aok
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Nice work gents. Cant wait to fly her :)
ReDhAwK
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Did this get submitted? was kinda looking forward to it in this round of skins...........
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Yes, I got a confirmation email about it a few days ago.