Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: oakranger on November 20, 2008, 02:53:23 PM
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One of my squad mates is getting a bit frustrated with Las and Spits that he gets kill by in his pony. I showed him a few things that he should work on but i was wondering if there are others. Dose anybody know the best way in fighting a La or Spit in a pony?
Cheers
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Don't... to be quite honest. I'm not saying that it's impossible to beat a Spixteen stick in a Pony, but in order to do so at MA altitudes you have to out fly him significantly in every respect.
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I agree with Bubi. The P-51 pilot should keep it fast and use hit and run tactics. The Spitfire XVI and La-5/7 can both handily outmaneuver a P-51. They climb and accelerate better, too. We're assuming competent pilots here, of course, and for that reason expect the Spixteen or La-7 pilot to win a 1vs1 fight a big majority of the time. Lastly, don't let people who call you "runstang" or other names get under your skin. ;)
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Well 51 can dance pretty good. It just if u go up against a good pilot in a spit or la7, well sry you're outta luck. Practice TnB it in DA but for MA fun just keep the 51 BnZ. More enjoying doing that in the 51 then getting your arse handed to you every time you take it up. It's good to learn how to dance in the 51 for when you need to though, but try not to unless you have to!
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Yeah come in high, HO or vulch once, and then run. If theres a gaggle of ya then the mustang can be effective. If you make a mistake and an LA gets level with you with close to equal E then he's cooked.
On the other hand theres a few Pony sticks that can give an LA a hard time. The last time I ran into one at TT while flying an LA. He had about 1,000' on me, "which is no big deal", and I tried turning him and slowing him, beating him down lower, and he just slashed and used his energy so effectively I actually got into some trouble and probably would have lost had another plane not jumped in. Not that I'm that great mind you but Ive flown LAs against Mustangs a lot and this guy was really good with his flap work and/or tactics. Normally when you get a Mustang to pull flaps in a turn you got him.
I dont know who he was but he was aggressive and very good. "Most" of the time the hardest thing with a mustang is running them down. An LA can not only out turn it but has a big edge in climb and acceleration.
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BnZ them with the D Pony. Keep the speed up and keep them on the defensive by reversing out of guns range and forcing them into continual evasives. Extend if it gets too hot.
The B Pony might stand a chance with good throttle management and flap work, particularily against the La. That will depend a lot on the pilots.
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The pony has an advantage vs both the la-7 and the spit XVI if the pony driver knows his plane.
La-7
The sweet spot for an la-7 is roughly 5,000 ft. above that it loses performance rapidly. The sweet spot for the pony is about 12k. While the la-7 is superior to the pony in a flat circle the pony can use the vertical and 1 notch of combat flaps to dominate the la-7. At lower alts the pony has a tougher set of issues but offset much of the la's advantage thru a higher speed E fight in the vertical obliques.
Unless the spit has alt or E its really just a target...
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Thx guys. everything you share is all i told my squad mate. I told him that if he really wants to learn to control his flying, get into a 190.
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The pony has an advantage vs both the la-7 and the spit XVI if the pony driver knows his plane.
La-7
The sweet spot for an la-7 is roughly 5,000 ft. above that it loses performance rapidly. The sweet spot for the pony is about 12k. While the la-7 is superior to the pony in a flat circle the pony can use the vertical and 1 notch of combat flaps to dominate the la-7. At lower alts the pony has a tougher set of issues but offset much of the la's advantage thru a higher speed E fight in the vertical obliques.
Unless the spit has alt or E its really just a target...
Damn good post.
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The pony has an advantage vs both the la-7 and the spit XVI if the pony driver knows his plane.
La-7
The sweet spot for an la-7 is roughly 5,000 ft. above that it loses performance rapidly. The sweet spot for the pony is about 12k. While the la-7 is superior to the pony in a flat circle the pony can use the vertical and 1 notch of combat flaps to dominate the la-7. At lower alts the pony has a tougher set of issues but offset much of the la's advantage thru a higher speed E fight in the vertical obliques.
Unless the spit has alt or E its really just a target...
most of the fight at TT eventually end up otd aroudn 1k!
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Karaya - I agree that snaphook's reply is excellent except the following point:
At lower alts the pony has a tougher set of issues but offset much of the la's advantage thru a higher speed E fight in the vertical obliques.
I disagree in the usual situations. The thrust-to-weight ratio heavily favors the La-7 in this situation. Quickest way to lose a fight with an La-7 is trying to E fight it in a Mustang in the vertical.
My $.02 - to successfully fight the La-7 or the Spit XVI in a Mustang, you have to figure out how to use other things besides the raw performance of the Mustang to win the fight. Instead you need to out smart your opponent by exploiting other variables besides raw performance like differentials in airspeeds and angles to equalize or win the fight.
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
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http://gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php
The P-51 doesn't have any power/weight advantage over the La-7 until you get to around 18k ft or more.
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Karaya - I agree that snaphook's reply is excellent except the following point:
I disagree in the usual situations. The thrust-to-weight ratio heavily favors the La-7 in this situation. Quickest way to lose a fight with an La-7 is trying to E fight it in a Mustang in the vertical.
My $.02 - to successfully fight the La-7 or the Spit XVI in a Mustang, you have to figure out how to use other things besides the raw performance of the Mustang to win the fight. Instead you need to out smart your opponent by exploiting other variables besides raw performance like differentials in airspeeds and angles to equalize or win the fight.
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
I agree completely...
Which is exactly why I suggested a fight in the semi-verticals (flying the X) at slightly higher speeds. Basically the pony driver has to out fly the lala driver. A fight in the pure vertical or a flat turning fight simply hand the contest to the la-7. My thought is that i'm going to fly the "X", work the flaps and throttle and get the la driver out of sync. Basically I'm flying a fast angles fight hidden inside an "E fight". I want the lala chasing me on the up hill leg and then catching him overspeeding on the downhill. I think that against any but the best la drivers the pony has an edge in a decelerating decending fight as you work thru the 1st 2 flap settings. If you cant saddle up quickly obviously got to roll away clean up and run like a scalded dog....
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Snaphook, when you say "out fly," is that the same as saying that the 51 pilot is more skilled and knows his ride better than the La-7 pilot? What if they are equal in these respects?
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http://gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php
The P-51 doesn't have any power/weight advantage over the La-7 until you get to around 18k ft or more.
Pardon me but if you look at the chart you posted the pony has roughly a 20mph speed advantage at 12k and an equal climb rate. It also has combat flaps that help it significantly in higher speed turns. you'll also see the pony on wep is faster from 8k on up. The real key here is the quality of ACM the pony driver uses. The la will win a flat or looping fight but if the pony uses the "X" and combat flaps he's got the edge vs any but another outstanding pilot.
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Snaphook, when you say "out fly," is that the same as saying that the 51 pilot is more skilled and knows his ride better than the La-7 pilot? What if they are equal in these respects?
If the pony driver flies to his strength the la doesnt have the control surface authority at high AoA and higher speeds. In a vertical fight the raw power and acceleration of the la will win and the la will out turn the pony in a flat circle...however in a higher speed vertical rolling scissors cut back type of fight the pony sriver has an edge with his combat flaps. Now he has to keep the fight in his sweet spot and a lot will depend on the initial merge. If the fight starts to low the pony has to be aggressive and force the fight while the la-7 is still fast. If the fight slows down without him having an angular advantage to exploit hes probably dead. If the fight starts at 8k or more then he can take the fight up...
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OK, I understand better what you were thinking of and agree :aok. I typically use something similar to try and force that hi-lo overshoot with an oblique nose-down turn trying to use gravity and the other aircraft's speed against em.
I don't agree that the P-51 has the advantage though. 1) Equal pilot skill the tactic is easily counterable. 2) Like you said if you can't either quickly get that snapshot or a short saddle the game is up. 3) Also the margin is thin and you can't make any miscalculations in the P-51 in this situation to make it work.
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
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I want to clarify something here for perspective...
The pony is (IMO) a very subtle plane that requires a lot of touch. It retains E very well and once you learn to unload the plane fully at unusual attitude it will carry a long a feather edge where other planes can't. However it doesn't generate the brute strength of a 109, 190 or la-7 (among others) that allows you to muscle the plane thru the verticals. I am not an exceptional pony driver, I spend to much time in planes I have to yank around to maintain the feel required, however I fly it often enough and well enough to glimpse the potential. so to me this is a pilot vs plane equation that requires the pony driver to maximize his planes potential. If in fact that happens then the pony driver has IMO a window of opportunity he can exploit vs an la-7 under an "even merge". If however the la-7 driver can gain the high ground then the pony is in serious trouble...
Posted this while you were posting tango...
I think you know exactly what i'm trying to say, but cant really explain fully. But it takes a very good pony driver to beat even a slightly above average la driver. However I do think that a true flat out pony ace can take an equal la-7 driver off an even merge...I simply think the la-7 cant quite hang with the pony in the high low high fight....IF the pony driver hits his marks and doesnt stall a wingtip...
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I want to clarify something here for perspective...
The pony is (IMO) a very subtle plane that requires a lot of touch. It retains E very well and once you learn to unload the plane fully at unusual attitude it will carry a long a feather edge where other planes can't. However it doesn't generate the brute strength of a 109, 190 or la-7 (among others) that allows you to muscle the plane thru the verticals. I am not an exceptional pony driver, I spend to much time in planes I have to yank around to maintain the feel required, however I fly it often enough and well enough to glimpse the potential. so to me this is a pilot vs plane equation that requires the pony driver to maximize his planes potential. If in fact that happens then the pony driver has IMO a window of opportunity he can exploit vs an la-7 under an "even merge". If however the la-7 driver can gain the high ground then the pony is in serious trouble...
Spot on IMHO. :aok
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
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Unless the spit has alt or E its really just a target...
:huh co-alt/E with similar pilot skills - surely the best the pony can hope for is to not get shot down? D vs XVI (both introduced 1944) the spit climbs, turns and accelerates better. and it has a much more lethal gun package. I'm a pretty average spit stick but its rare that I get killed by a single pony that I'm aware of.
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The LA-7 is tough nut to crack in a P-51 but the Spit not so much. The best way i find to beat a Spit is to use the zoom climb ability of the mustang. IMO the Pony is one of the best in the zoom.
I will usually give the spit my six at the merge and climb slowly afterward. As the spit gains I will go into a nose low turn and gain airspeed up to around 425 or 450. If you can time it right and keep the spit at 800 or 1000 then your zoom climb will allow you to either get above him or go for the rope. This tactic can allow the spit for a shot at the top but if you don't want to run i find it works well. The trick is to not pull to many G's when climbing and save as much of that speed as possible.
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The LA-7 is tough nut to crack in a P-51 but the Spit not so much. The best way i find to beat a Spit is to use the zoom climb ability of the mustang. IMO the Pony is one of the best in the zoom.
I will usually give the spit my six at the merge and climb slowly afterward. As the spit gains I will go into a nose low turn and gain airspeed up to around 425 or 450. If you can time it right and keep the spit at 800 or 1000 then your zoom climb will allow you to either get above him or go for the rope. This tactic can allow the spit for a shot at the top but if you don't want to run i find it works well. The trick is to not pull to many G's when climbing and save as much of that speed as possible.
I fly the XVI a lot and most of my pony kills (probably 50%) come from them trying that exact tactic. The Pony can't maintain speed in the climb no matter how much smash they start with and the XVI will always reel them in (given the XVI wasn't slow to begin with).
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I agree to a point with you BaldEagl. The biggest danger with trying this is pulling up to hard. You wouldn't want to go straight up against the spit or any airplane for that matter. If you climb at around 5500 fpm then the pony can get extention if he starts out fast enough.
Also the amount of fuel in the airplane is a big consideration on what you can do. To much fuel and your in a heap of trouble.
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I agree to a point with you BaldEagl. The biggest danger with trying this is pulling up to hard. You wouldn't want to go straight up against the spit or any airplane for that matter. If you climb at around 5500 fpm then the pony can get extention if he starts out fast enough.
Also the amount of fuel in the airplane is a big consideration on what you can do. To much fuel and your in a heap of trouble.
As long as the Pony (D model) has it's nose pointed up (to any almost any degree) he's bleeding off speed and advantage to the XVI. Every time I see a pony go nose up I smile because it's only a matter of time. Level or nose low I'd most likey break off immediately and try to coax him into reversing.
I have had some very good, tough fights against D Ponies though. If the fight starts with altitude and the Pony can fight in a nose low scissors with flaps deployed he stands a reasonable chance of getting a shot on the Spit but if it doesn't happen by the time the fight hits the deck he needs to break off and extend level.
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As long as the Pony (D model) has it's nose pointed up (to any almost any degree) he's bleeding off speed and advantage to the XVI. Every time I see a pony go nose up I smile because it's only a matter of time.
I totally agree with this, even when I am flying my Ki84 (which performs slightly worse the Spit16 in just about every category). If the Pony isn't already waaaay faster then me, when he pulls up he is just giving me a chance to close the gap and blast him. But if he dives instead, I know that I probably will never catch him and usually br eak off a bit and maintain my altitude to see if he'll turn back into me and give me a new merge and a new chance to nail him.
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This is all dependent on the pony drivers skill and understanding of his plane. Like the la-7 the pony driver has to know that he has a narrow performance sweet spot. At latitudes over about 11k the ponys performance in the vertical falls off dramatically vs the spitties and the speed differential also narrows shortly after that. So the pony driver has to realize that under about 8k and over about 12k he has severely restricted options in the pure vertical. He does however have the raw speed and the endurance to control the fight. simply put the spitty isnt going anywhere until the pony decides to let him.
So for the pony to win he needs to understand that he needs to dictate the terms. Normally I'll get to about 11k and let the spitty climb up toward me then start a nose down fight to 6-7k and then go vertical into my sweet spot. more then likely if the spitty follows he dies. If however the spitty simply keeps climbing regardless of what I do then I normally just keep on going....
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I upp LA-7s all the time in base defense, often desperate base defense. My tactics are always the same. If I can I get up to the 3k to 5k sweet spot, get my speed up, pull high G turns to dodge B&Z's, and wait for an enemy to make a mistake. This is the only time I fly LAs. I dont upp them and take them to other bases and the only exception is maybe TT when its up, and on my weekdays off when I get them. During the day on weekdays, with the kiddies in school, theres often a lot of talent at TT and you can learn something.
And when I upp an LA-7 I stray from base ack to get guys to commit. They say the LA-7 is a great low alt climber but my experience is that your always looking up for cons and if you go verticle to long then your bleeding E and your dead. A slow LA with high cons is a dead LA. So thats it. I lay there and wait for a Mustang to make a mistake. And the mistake is apparent right away, right away you know if you got him or not. He either stays to low for to long, to slow, gets to greedy, strays from his buddies, isn't aware of his 360%, or overestimates the capabilities of his airplane.
The LA-7 is probably the most one dimensional airplane I fly. Maybe the most one dimensional of the entire set. As long as you dont play "its" game you should be alright.
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The LA-7 is probably the most one dimensional airplane I fly. Maybe the most one dimensional of the entire set. As long as you dont play "its" game you should be alright.
The La-7 is far from being the most one-dimensional plane in the set when it comes to fighter combat. It's as fast as you can get non-perked at typical altitudes, it has superb acceleration and, unlike other speed demons like Typhoon or 190D it can turns surprisingly well. It doesn't need to be flow at high speed all the time, accelleration AND maneuverabilty enable it to be flown n BnZ mode, as a E fighter or even going TnB with most planes in the set.
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The La-7 is far from being the most one-dimensional plane in the set when it comes to fighter combat. It's as fast as you can get non-perked at typical altitudes, it has superb acceleration and, unlike other speed demons like Typhoon or 190D it can turns surprisingly well. It doesn't need to be flow at high speed all the time, accelleration AND maneuverabilty enable it to be flown n BnZ mode, as a E fighter or even going TnB with most planes in the set.
My description of "one dimensional" = doesnt carry bombs, "or meaningful loads", is a short distance fighter, and pretty much a low ALT fighter used for defence. I make that disinction in comparison to the Yank and Brit Jabo set I usually stick to. If this were Star Wars the LA would be a TIE fighter.
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I fly the XVI a lot and most of my pony kills (probably 50%) come from them trying that exact tactic. The Pony can't maintain speed in the climb no matter how much smash they start with and the XVI will always reel them in (given the XVI wasn't slow to begin with).
Yep that is basically what I was going to say..Playing a vertical cat and mouse game with the spit16 is a real bad idea in the pony :aok
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The LA-7 is tough nut to crack in a P-51 but the Spit not so much. The best way i find to beat a Spit is to use the zoom climb ability of the mustang. IMO the Pony is one of the best in the zoom.
I will usually give the spit my six at the merge and climb slowly afterward. As the spit gains I will go into a nose low turn and gain airspeed up to around 425 or 450. If you can time it right and keep the spit at 800 or 1000 then your zoom climb will allow you to either get above him or go for the rope. This tactic can allow the spit for a shot at the top but if you don't want to run i find it works well. The trick is to not pull to many G's when climbing and save as much of that speed as possible.
This move simply won't work if your spit driver is Co E at merge. The ONLY way, regardless of what climb rate you choose, to beat a spixteen this way is if the fight started out with the spit at a lower E state. The spixteen will out zoom a pony any day, assuming comparable E states.
CO-E and below 12k, a pony stick has to out fly an LA7 or spixteen. Fortunately, there are few capable LA7 pilots out there. Even more fortunately there are guys who fly LA7's and think they are competent and you can quickly hand them their butts.
For both these planes, it's rather easy to get them to overshoot. Spixteen pilots tend to want to stay on the throttle because they are focusing on not letting the pony get away. LA7's, in spite of their radial engine, seem to decelerate poorly so getting them to go past you in a scissor is not all the difficult.
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Unfortunatly when you scissors an LA-7 you might end up to close to it for a snap shot and if the LA-7 manages his E well enough he can recognize it and stay on your inside and a bit behind. I ran into a very good P-51 stick today, "wont mention him cause its easy to check", and he started scissoring me and I was able to recognize it and setup for a snapshot. He did everything right but I recognized the move.
Ive been handed my lunch more then once by a P-38 stick who knows how to scissors. The P-38 is actually more dangerous when its scissoring because you can keep the nose up easier and stall fight it better. I'd much rather be in an LA-7 then a Spit-16 when faced with either a P-51 or P-38 being flown by sombody with superior skills. But Ive been carved up in both. Enough to never understimate either adversary.
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Haven't been a pony stick long but I really do like it. I've found that as long as I'm at what I think is cornering velocity, I can hang with both planes. Caveat to this is that if E states are equal, I usually do like all other pony pilot, stick my tail between my leg and RUN!. If I have some E advantage (doesn't mean I have to be higher than them, just mean that I have an edge on E), I'll try and mix it up.
One thing I discovered though is that being at cornering velocity means that you should be at that speed when making your lead turn or any other turn. If I have excessive speed, I'll make my turn in the vertical. The more speed, the more dramatic I'll go to the vertical to get to that cornering velocity as fast as I can. The other thing I've discovered to is to be at cornering velocity when I'm in range with him as much as possible.
This seems to work for me.
Oh yeah one more thing, in a pony against one of these planes, if I don't kill him in the first 2 or 3 passes, I get out of dodge cause a couple of things have happened:
1. My gunnery sucks and I've lost my E advantage.
2. I've tangled with a someone who knows what they are doing in those planes and have lost my E advantage. BTW, not all people who fly spits and LAs are dweebs.
S1n1ster
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I usually do like all other pony pilot, stick my tail between my leg and RUN!.
S1n1ster
NO NO NO NO NO
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I dunno, i've seen some guys do some pretty magical things in 51s. Some guys can stall fight em and flop em around with spits. How does a LALA stall fight? I got into a stall fight with a pony the other day whilst in a 109F. It was on! That damn pony flopped and stalled and was a major PITA. We went six or seven turns before he got picked. I was surprised it did so well.
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A D or B Pony with less than 25% fuel handles much, much better compared to heavier fuel loads. Climb rate improves to 4k/min and the stall doesn't come on as quickly and when it does it's usually not as hard to recover.
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One of my squad mates is getting a bit frustrated with Las and Spits that he gets kill by in his pony. I showed him a few things that he should work on but i was wondering if there are others. Dose anybody know the best way in fighting a La or Spit in a pony?
Cheers
A P51 without and advantage cannot really fight those planes (and many many others). In real life the P51 became famous for its speed and range. If you want to fly it that bad your only options are hit and run or hope the other guy is not as good as you
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A P51 without and advantage cannot really fight those planes (and many many others). In real life the P51 became famous for its speed and range. If you want to fly it that bad your only options are hit and run or hope the other guy is not as good as you
..... but thats the fun thing about this game. 75% of the people you will run into most likely don't know how to fly which ever plane they are in and you can win easily....IF you know your pony! As for the other 25%.... it depends on when you catch them, but hey its only a game, and they get new ponys ready for you faster than you can trash them ! It comes down to you knowing YOUR plane better than the other guy. If you know how to handle your pony at 100 knots or less chances are you have most of the LA's covered....as long as you give them little to shoot at. Spits are a bit tougher, but they can be had the same way due to most are newb pilots that blow all their "E" on the HO shots. Avoid the HO's, spiral up and hand over their heads and then drop on them like a hammer !
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A P51 without and advantage cannot really fight those planes (and many many others). In real life the P51 became famous for its speed and range. If you want to fly it that bad your only options are hit and run or hope the other guy is not as good as you
While I agree this is more or less true in game, the P-51 did fine against 109s and 190s over Germany, AND Yaks and La's in Korea. It is difficult to see how this would have happened, if, as some allege, the USAAF had been so foolish as to send what amounted to a turkey with a big gas tank up against some of the most experienced and deadly pilots of WWII. Thus when making comments about what made the P-51 famous, one should consider the possibility that pilots fighting in actual P-51s did not suffer from all of the limitations that AH'ers in cartoon P-51 do. :D
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While I agree this is more or less true in game, the P-51 did fine against 109s and 190s over Germany, AND Yaks and La's in Korea. It is difficult to see how this would have happened, if, as some allege, the USAAF had been so foolish as to send what amounted to a turkey with a big gas tank up against some of the most experienced and deadly pilots of WWII. Thus when making comments about what made the P-51 famous, one should consider the possibility that pilots fighting in actual P-51s did not suffer from all of the limitations that AH'ers in cartoon P-51 do. :D
One of the limitations being knowledge of history, cold, fear, bordome, fatigue? lol. What aces? They were all dead by the time the 51s showed up. Second, the 51s had numbers and alt. Third, the Germans did not go up to dogfight 51s. The objective was to stop the bombers before they got bounced by the 51s. Sure they did well in real life but I think we are talking about AH here. Not even close to real life.
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While I agree this is more or less true in game, the P-51 did fine against 109s and 190s over Germany, AND Yaks and La's in Korea.
I think it's hard to argue that the P-51 gained much of it's reputation for it's long legs and high altitude performance plus being a "beutiful" aircraft (no one ever said that about the F6F-5 despite it's much greater success).
A P-51/190 match up at alt isn't much of a match-up at all but that's not what the Germans were building for. They were building heavily armored and heavily armed fighters to kill American B-17's and did an exemplary job of it. Oddly, while they were doing so they ommited the high alt performance that the P-51 (and P-47) brought to the table.
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One of the limitations being knowledge of history, cold, fear, bordome, fatigue? lol. What aces? They were all dead by the time the 51s showed up.
This is often said, and there is a lot of truth to it. A good argument can be made that the P-47 broke the back of the Luftwaffe over the Western front before the P-51s were deployed. I don't think anyone would argue that the Thunderbolt was outright better as an air superiority machine though, although it was good enough at the right time except for the issue of range.
And of course the Experten were not ALL dead. Consider the fact that a certain number of Luftwaffe high-scorers from the Eastern front did not have such a nice experience when moving to the West. And of course, some German aces survived and went on to write memoirs of their experiences that have inspired more "lost cause" fandom than anything other than the Confederate States of America.... :)
Second, the 51s had numbers and alt.
Except when they didn't. I'm sure you've already read the combat account quoted by Humble in a thread in General discussion.
Third, the Germans did not go up to dogfight 51s. The objective was to stop the bombers before they got bounced by the 51s. Sure they did well in real life but I think we are talking about AH here. Not even close to real life.
Once again, generally this is true, but there are enough instances from WWII when things did not go according to plan and dogfights broke out for us to know that the P-51 was no turkey in fights over Europe with either the 190 or the 109.
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Yes, the F6F was near-perfect for its time and place, but one must allow that a good part of its success was as much due to the mistakes the Japanese made in fighter design and tactics early in the war as was due to the Hellcat's specific design.
One could argue that almost any of the front-line fighters from the other nations from mid-war onwards could have racked up large k/d ratios against the Zero using similar hit-and-run tactics.
I think it's hard to argue that the P-51 gained much of it's reputation for it's long legs and high altitude performance plus being a "beutiful" aircraft (no one ever said that about the F6F-5 despite it's much greater success).
A P-51/190 match up at alt isn't much of a match-up at all but that's not what the Germans were building for. They were building heavily armored and heavily armed fighters to kill American B-17's and did an exemplary job of it. Oddly, while they were doing so they ommited the high alt performance that the P-51 (and P-47) brought to the table.
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If you're accelerating on the deck trying to recover some energy from that fight you just won and then happen to get a Spit or LA on your six that has closure - the only thing you can do is force an overshoot with a combination of rolling / pulling and a lot of rudder and dump flaps - anything to bleed the E, keep an eye on the bandit and wait for him to overshoot, then maybe it'll end up in a slow speed rolling scissors. I always roll to the left to let the engine torque help roll me around as I'm on top inverted, and crank in a lot of left rudder. If the Spit or LA is an average pilot, he'll hopefully be out infront of you.
If that maneuver doesn't work, then you're most likely dead - it's usually a one shot deal. I seem to have good luck with it though. Best thing to do is not get low and slow on the deck, but sometimes the temptation to go low and mix it up is just too great.
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I didn't read the whole thread but I wanted to comment on the 51d. I have pretty much exclusively flown that plane since I began flying. My goal was to beat 16s in it. Well to my surprise I have been really successful against the average spit pilots in a turn fight (as long as I don't get ganged). If I could aim worth a darn I'd get way more kills against them. Good spit pilots can obviously whack me, but there aren't that many good ones. My next goal is to be successful like Steve is in a 51. My two cents and I am pretty much a newbie.
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For spits, i find that if you keep the fight very fast and use the excellent instantaneous turn performance of the mustang to be very aggressive on the merge, you will find you can be at least the equal of the spit for the first couple of turns. If you have alt and keep the fight descending (to keep your speed up), you can give any spit a run for its money until you run out of alt. The last thing you want is to run out of speed and get into a slow sustained turn contest with it, cause you will never win that match up. Keeping your speed up and being aggressive can yield results. If you haven't gained the angles you need within the time window you have your speed up, then you can always withdraw, use your speed advantage to gain excess E, and come back for seconds.
La's pose a bigger threat than spits. Spits are entrees. Las are the main course. I always go after the Las first. Keep the fight between 8 and 12k for the D pony, and above 12k for the B pony, and you can be the equal of any La, espc with the combat flaps. Dont get below that unless you have a good positional advantage, otherwise it will turn in the Las favour. Above 8K, you can still do "tactical withdrawals", below that you cant.
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As much as I wish we started with altitude, my buddies and I prefer to start duel by taking off from the same bases, rising up only 1K in alt and turning towards each other at 5K away.
If he's got a Spitfire XIV and I have a D-pony... things get really difficult. This opponent has been playing for about as long as I have and there's actually a 50/50 chance of him winning if we were in the same planes.
Any advice on how to use the tiny speed advantage or anything really, of the P-51D (or P-51B) starting at such a low altitude?
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This is often said, and there is a lot of truth to it. A good argument can be made that the P-47 broke the back of the Luftwaffe over the Western front before the P-51s were deployed. I don't think anyone would argue that the Thunderbolt was outright better as an air superiority machine though, although it was good enough at the right time except for the issue of range.
And of course the Experten were not ALL dead. Consider the fact that a certain number of Luftwaffe high-scorers from the Eastern front did not have such a nice experience when moving to the West. And of course, some German aces survived and went on to write memoirs of their experiences that have inspired more "lost cause" fandom than anything other than the Confederate States of America.... :)
Except when they didn't. I'm sure you've already read the combat account quoted by Humble in a thread in General discussion.
Once again, generally this is true, but there are enough instances from WWII when things did not go according to plan and dogfights broke out for us to know that the P-51 was no turkey in fights over Europe with either the 190 or the 109.
One could also say this of the P-38 and what it did for the Army Air Corps in the Pacific. The Lightning, Thunderbolt, and Hellcat don't get near enough air to air credit as they deserve. The Hellcat destroyed more aircraft than any other American fighter, the Thunderbolt went up against the Luftwaffe until basically 1944, and the P-38 was the only Fighter in production throughout WWII (and had the Top two scoring American Aces :noid ).
I love the Mustang, but my 38 wants some love too :cry
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Ray, outside of AHII/general WWII aircraft fandom, the P-51 IS hyped to an absurd degree, but inside the "community" as it were some have taken an opposite reactionary position and try to paint the P-51 as The-Single-Worst-Aircraft-Of-WWII, That-Only-Shot-Down-Some-Germans-Because-The-Yanks-Cheated or some such. :D
One could also say this of the P-38 and what it did for the Army Air Corps in the Pacific. The Lightning, Thunderbolt, and Hellcat don't get near enough air to air credit as they deserve. The Hellcat destroyed more aircraft than any other American fighter, the Thunderbolt went up against the Luftwaffe until basically 1944, and the P-38 was the only Fighter in production throughout WWII (and had the Top two scoring American Aces :noid ).
I love the Mustang, but my 38 wants some love too :cry
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love your avatar spatula LOL