P-51 vs La or Spits

[humble]

Snaphook, when you say "out fly," is that the same as saying that the 51 pilot is more skilled and knows his ride better than the La-7 pilot?  What if they are equal in these respects?

If the pony driver flies to his strength the la doesnt have the control surface authority at high AoA and higher speeds. In a vertical fight the raw power and acceleration of the la will win and the la will out turn the pony in a flat circle...however in a higher speed vertical rolling scissors cut back type of fight the pony sriver has an edge with his combat flaps. Now he has to keep the fight in his sweet spot and a lot will depend on the initial merge. If the fight starts to low the pony has to be aggressive and force the fight while the la-7 is still fast. If the fight slows down without him having an angular advantage to exploit hes probably dead. If the fight starts at 8k or more then he can take the fight up...

[dtango]

OK, I understand better what you were thinking of and agree .  I typically use something similar to try and force that hi-lo overshoot with an oblique nose-down turn trying to use gravity and the other aircraft's speed against em.

I don't agree that the P-51 has the advantage though.  1) Equal pilot skill the tactic is easily counterable.  2) Like you said if you can't either quickly get that snapshot or a short saddle the game is up.  3) Also the margin is thin and you can't make any miscalculations in the P-51 in this situation to make it work.

Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs

[humble]

I want to clarify something here for perspective...

The pony is (IMO) a very subtle plane that requires a lot of touch. It retains E very well and once you learn to unload the plane fully at unusual attitude it will carry a long a feather edge where other planes can't. However it doesn't generate the brute strength of a 109, 190 or la-7 (among others) that allows you to muscle the plane thru the verticals. I am not an exceptional pony driver, I spend to much time in planes I have to yank around to maintain the feel required, however I fly it often enough and well enough to glimpse the potential. so to me this is a pilot vs plane equation that requires the pony driver to maximize his planes potential. If in fact that happens then the pony driver has IMO a window of opportunity he can exploit vs an la-7 under an "even merge". If however the la-7 driver can gain the high ground then the pony is in serious trouble...

Posted this while you were posting tango...

I think you know exactly what i'm trying to say, but cant really explain fully. But it takes a very good pony driver to beat even a slightly above average la driver. However I do think that a true flat out pony ace can take an equal la-7 driver off an even merge...I simply think the la-7 cant quite hang with the pony in the high low high fight....IF the pony driver hits his marks and doesnt stall a wingtip...

[dtango]

I want to clarify something here for perspective...

The pony is (IMO) a very subtle plane that requires a lot of touch. It retains E very well and once you learn to unload the plane fully at unusual attitude it will carry a long a feather edge where other planes can't. However it doesn't generate the brute strength of a 109, 190 or la-7 (among others) that allows you to muscle the plane thru the verticals. I am not an exceptional pony driver, I spend to much time in planes I have to yank around to maintain the feel required, however I fly it often enough and well enough to glimpse the potential. so to me this is a pilot vs plane equation that requires the pony driver to maximize his planes potential. If in fact that happens then the pony driver has IMO a window of opportunity he can exploit vs an la-7 under an "even merge". If however the la-7 driver can gain the high ground then the pony is in serious trouble...

Spot on IMHO.   

Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs

[RTHolmes]

Unless the spit has alt or E its really just a target...

  co-alt/E with similar pilot skills - surely the best the pony can hope for is to not get shot down? D vs XVI (both introduced 1944) the spit climbs, turns and accelerates better. and it has a much more lethal gun package. I'm a pretty average spit stick but its rare that I get killed by a single pony that I'm aware of.

[transam1]

The LA-7 is tough nut to crack in a P-51 but the Spit not so much. The best way i find to beat a Spit is to use the zoom climb ability of the mustang. IMO the Pony is one of the best in the zoom.
I will usually give the spit my six at the merge and climb slowly afterward. As the spit gains I will go into a nose low turn and gain airspeed up to around 425 or 450. If you can time it right and keep the spit at 800 or 1000 then your zoom climb will allow you to either get above him or go for the rope.  This tactic can allow the spit for a shot at the top but if you don't want to run i find it works well. The trick is to not pull to many G's when climbing and save as much of that speed as possible.

[BaldEagl]

The LA-7 is tough nut to crack in a P-51 but the Spit not so much. The best way i find to beat a Spit is to use the zoom climb ability of the mustang. IMO the Pony is one of the best in the zoom.
I will usually give the spit my six at the merge and climb slowly afterward. As the spit gains I will go into a nose low turn and gain airspeed up to around 425 or 450. If you can time it right and keep the spit at 800 or 1000 then your zoom climb will allow you to either get above him or go for the rope.  This tactic can allow the spit for a shot at the top but if you don't want to run i find it works well. The trick is to not pull to many G's when climbing and save as much of that speed as possible.

I fly the XVI a lot and most of my pony kills (probably 50%) come from them trying that exact tactic.  The Pony can't maintain speed in the climb no matter how much smash they start with and the XVI will always reel them in (given the XVI wasn't slow to begin with).

[transam1]

I agree to a point with you BaldEagl. The biggest danger with trying this is pulling up to hard. You wouldn't want to go straight up against the spit or any airplane for that matter. If you climb at around 5500 fpm then the pony can get extention if he starts out fast enough.

Also the amount of fuel in the airplane is a big consideration on what you can do. To much fuel and your in a heap of trouble.

[BaldEagl]

I agree to a point with you BaldEagl. The biggest danger with trying this is pulling up to hard. You wouldn't want to go straight up against the spit or any airplane for that matter. If you climb at around 5500 fpm then the pony can get extention if he starts out fast enough.

Also the amount of fuel in the airplane is a big consideration on what you can do. To much fuel and your in a heap of trouble.

As long as the Pony (D model) has it's nose pointed up (to any almost any degree) he's bleeding off speed and advantage to the XVI.  Every time I see a pony go nose up I smile because it's only a matter of time.  Level or nose low I'd most likey break off immediately and try to coax him into reversing.

I have had some very good, tough fights against D Ponies though.  If the fight starts with altitude and the Pony can fight in a nose low scissors with flaps deployed he stands a reasonable chance of getting a shot on the Spit but if it doesn't happen by the time the fight hits the deck he needs to break off and extend level.

[PFactorDave]

As long as the Pony (D model) has it's nose pointed up (to any almost any degree) he's bleeding off speed and advantage to the XVI.  Every time I see a pony go nose up I smile because it's only a matter of time. 

I totally agree with this, even when I am flying my Ki84 (which performs slightly worse the Spit16 in just about every category).  If the Pony isn't already waaaay faster then me, when he pulls up he is just giving me a chance to close the gap and blast him.  But if he dives instead, I know that I probably will never catch him and usually br eak off a bit and maintain my altitude to see if he'll turn back into me and give me a new merge and a new chance to nail him.

[humble]

This is all dependent on the pony drivers skill and understanding of his plane. Like the la-7 the pony driver has to know that he has a narrow performance sweet spot. At latitudes over about 11k the ponys performance in the vertical falls off dramatically vs the spitties and the speed differential also narrows shortly after that. So the pony driver has to realize that under about 8k and over about 12k he has severely restricted options in the pure vertical. He does however have the raw speed and the endurance to control the fight. simply put the spitty isnt going anywhere until the pony decides to let him.

So for the pony to win he needs to understand that he needs to dictate the terms. Normally I'll get to about 11k and let the spitty climb up toward me then start a nose down fight to 6-7k and then go vertical into my sweet spot. more then likely if the spitty follows he dies. If however the spitty simply keeps climbing regardless of what I do then I normally just keep on going....

[Rich46yo]

I upp LA-7s all the time in base defense, often desperate base defense. My tactics are always the same. If I can I get up to the 3k to 5k sweet spot, get my speed up, pull high G turns to dodge B&Z's, and wait for an enemy to make a mistake. This is the only time I fly LAs. I dont upp them and take them to other bases and the only exception is maybe TT when its up, and on my weekdays off when I get them. During the day on weekdays, with the kiddies in school, theres often a lot of talent at TT and you can learn something.

And when I upp an LA-7 I stray from base ack to get guys to commit. They say the LA-7 is a great low alt climber but my experience is that your always looking up for cons and if you go verticle to long then your bleeding E and your dead. A slow LA with high cons is a dead LA. So thats it. I lay there and wait for a Mustang to make a mistake. And the mistake is apparent right away, right away you know if you got him or not. He either stays to low for to long, to slow, gets to greedy, strays from his buddies, isn't aware of his 360%, or overestimates the capabilities of his airplane.

The LA-7 is probably the most one dimensional airplane I fly. Maybe the most one dimensional of the entire set. As long as you dont play "its" game you should be alright.

[Lusche]

The LA-7 is probably the most one dimensional airplane I fly. Maybe the most one dimensional of the entire set. As long as you dont play "its" game you should be alright.

The La-7 is far from being the most one-dimensional plane in the set when it comes to fighter combat. It's as fast as you can get non-perked at typical altitudes, it has superb acceleration and, unlike other speed demons like Typhoon or 190D it can turns surprisingly well. It doesn't need to be flow at high speed all the time, accelleration AND maneuverabilty enable it to be flown n BnZ mode, as a E fighter or even going TnB with most planes in the set.

[Rich46yo]

The La-7 is far from being the most one-dimensional plane in the set when it comes to fighter combat. It's as fast as you can get non-perked at typical altitudes, it has superb acceleration and, unlike other speed demons like Typhoon or 190D it can turns surprisingly well. It doesn't need to be flow at high speed all the time, accelleration AND maneuverabilty enable it to be flown n BnZ mode, as a E fighter or even going TnB with most planes in the set.

My description of "one dimensional" = doesnt carry bombs, "or meaningful loads", is a short distance fighter, and pretty much a low ALT fighter used for defence. I make that disinction in comparison to the Yank and Brit Jabo set I usually stick to. If this were Star Wars the LA would be a TIE fighter.

[Tr1gg22]

I fly the XVI a lot and most of my pony kills (probably 50%) come from them trying that exact tactic.  The Pony can't maintain speed in the climb no matter how much smash they start with and the XVI will always reel them in (given the XVI wasn't slow to begin with).

Yep that is basically what I was going to say..Playing a vertical cat and mouse game with the spit16 is a real bad idea in the pony