Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: 33Vortex on November 21, 2008, 05:18:17 PM
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As a player (paying customer) who put +90% of my ingame time in Luftwaffe fighters and particularly the 190, the most annoying problems with bombers are:
1) Bomber guys who fly their bomber(s) as they were fighter planes, maneuvers such as loops, sudden steep climbs and unrecoverable dives (though perfectly doable ingame) are common. I have apsolutely no respect for this gamey behavior.
2) Bomber guys who fly their whole formation to a target, only to bail out of a perfectly working aircraft (or three) to quickly grab another formation. Denying interceptors guaranteed kills. If this is not gamey I don't know what is. To me it just looks stupid. :confused:
3) Laser accuracy on defensive guns. Admittedly a problem of a lesser degree than the other ones but nevertheless firing all guns simultaneously from a whole formation of bombers represent concentrated firepower which is unreal. Remember, some of those guns were hand held. The hand held guns should have less accuracy than the ones sited in turrets. Gunnery is a very respectable skill, those who know how to shoot rather than pull gamey tricks earn points in my book.
Fighter-like behavior is fine with bombers such as the A20 (Boston), Ju88, B25 to some degree and yes even the P38. :devil Though whenever a formation of Lancasters or B26s start chasing my 190, making defensive sudden steep climbs, diving maneuvers or even a loop, I feel like logging off. It just makes my eyes bleed. You almost never see this from a B17 formation, perhaps it's better modeled? I wouldn't know as I practically never have used one.
Seriously though, my point is that the current FM of some of the bombers ingame allow very unrealistic maneuvers. Granted a pilot about to get shot down would pull some desperate maneuvers, but not in a formation with other planes and he would certainly not commit to a maneuver which means guaranteed structural failure!
Additionally, there should be some incentive to survive your mission whatever a/c you dare to takeoff with. Or else we will continue to see HALO parachuting bomber crews, as well as the retarded kamikaze routine with attack fighters who only focus on target damage (another gamey behaviour).
If people don't give a **** about survival (takes a lot of skill and a decent amount of luck in many situations) please let them... but reward those of us who do. People who don't care about survival most likely don't care about their score anyway. What they care about is results ingame and the game mechanics does not reward survival, it rewards base captures. As long as death or airframe loss is a matter of just losing a few perks and especially when # of fighter kills (or bomb damage) weighs heavier than k/d ratio (or damage/death for bombers), all of this will remain. It seems like kills/time is another important factor in fighter scoring, further promoting quick one-way-ticket sorties.
Now the arrogant bastards of the lot will of course tell me to sod off to some other arena. I will tell you then that it's not about that. It's about me as a fighter guy and paying customer wanting to see the level of gameplay raised. If you want to do that, give the players some incentive to survive and penalize players who simply don't care. (If you take the attitude of "I don't care" you very much rule your own opinion out at the same time.) It's the only way to promote development on a personal level and the game as a whole, regarding tactics and level of skill. If you want to re-create the WW2 aerial fighting, teamwork should be more than hoarding a enemy base in a series of one-way trips to get a base capture. It gets old fast.
Promoting teamwork is to reward successful missions. A feature that can be expanded upon A LOT. I'm sure you're aware of this and I hope you're working on it seeing how Combat Tour was cancelled in favor of general development.
The post was originally not meant to be this long and extensive. It started only with my frustration with the nutjobs who think that they're flying bombers.
If you (HTC) could fix the issues mentioned above, that would improve gameplay tremendously for us fighter guys.
Thanks! :aok
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Lancasters were capable of those kinds of manuevers. The standard response to a nightfighter behind your Lanc was a "corkscrew" to the right or left. That is a tight, diving turn followed by a tight climbing turn.
Obviously that wouldn't be done while in a daylight formation though.
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Obviously that wouldn't be done while in a daylight formation though.
Key factor.
Did they do the loop as well? :lol
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In a game there will be gameyness. No way around it regardless of the aircraft or vehicle type. Agree the 'stunts' some guys pull are a bit much and a def. turn off, not to mention the bomb and bails.
I wish the bombers could not run full power all the time like they do. This is not realistic, and of course the all guns firing formation feature is really tough at times. I would like to see HTC address those two concerns, but would rather see the pilots just mature alittle and let HTC worry about developing new a/c and features for all of us to enjoy. The modeling is just one part. The guys playing the way they do is another whole beast, and for me, the bigger of the probs. One can overcome the performance of the bomber with patience and tactics, we all know that. It's the player actions that are the real let down.
.02 in.
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Agreed. Im a BUFF-dweeb myself, and even from our end its gamey. Those who pull these stunts give us a bad name, and honestly rob us of targets by bomb-and-bailing while we bother to fly home. Penalize suicides, reward my landings just a tad more.
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1) Bomber guys who fly their bomber(s) as they were fighter planes, maneuvers such as loops, sudden steep climbs and unrecoverable dives (though perfectly doable ingame) are common. I have apsolutely no respect for this gamey behavior.
You have a proof what real WW2 bombers cannt execute such maneuvers? Sure, they didnt it on everyday basis, but it doesnt mean they couldnt do.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJ546BEps-M
Btw, comparing to real WW2 fighters, our fighter planes can do alot "gamey" things.
IMHO, real problems with bombers are divebombing in heavies, ability to keep formation at full speed and warping drones.
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Yes, its all gamey from a dedicated Buff sticks perspective too. Most of us never have flown Buffs in such a manner.
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Yes Oleg I'm aware that the bombers could be quite nimble without their bomb load and reduced fuel load, a Boeing 707 is a long way from WW2 piston-engine bombers though. I'm just questioning to what degree the bombers could do the maneuvers we see them do ingame such as loops and what looks to be unrecoverable dives at high speeds, and why or when a pilot would carry out such high-risk maneuvers. Risking a plane and it's entire crew without good reason could not only get you killed but probably court martialed if you survived. The game and game developers should, imho, strive to create through game mechanics and player rewards a environment which simulates WW2 combat in a sensible and reasonably realistic way. With that philosophy, realistic flying behaviour should be encouraged and rewarded through game mechanics. Unfortunately that is not always the case currently. FSOs are generally great in that respect, having only one life do wonders to realism and immersion. Some still choose to embark on suicide missions or carry out suicide maneuvers, but it did happen irl too.
Concerning fighters and the gameyness of their flying there would be tons of features that could be added. Engine management is one thing that's practically a no-issue ingame, not to mention navigation. What would be amazing, imho, would be a flight sim that combined the features and realism of FSX WW2 a/c with almost every switch and dial functioning, with the gameplay and flight modeling features of Aces High. The problem would be that most players, or customers if you will, would not play the game since it would be too difficult and the learning curve too steep, disregarding the graphics issue. Graphics is not what makes the game interesting long-term, as AH proves it is the interaction between players and the infinite combinations of different Air Combat situations that do that for us. The competition in AH is murder to anyone new to ACM, adding full-realism a/c and engine management would make the workload impossible for most. In this respect, AH does strike a good balance even though many of us would like (or can't get enough) realism. :)
I love the game, it has a balance of realism and gameplay like no other but there is plenty of room for improvements. It should be obvious to everyone. :)
I'm thinking one way to raise the level of teamwork a few notches would be to expand on the mission feature. For example to multiply perk points by a factor derived from # of planes that return safely from a successful mission. Mission goal could be set by mission creator, simply use the current scoring categories fighter, attack and bomber mission types. Now that would promote teamwork, and squads would have their work cut out for them in the MAs. We're also missing a squad scoring that reflect on the teamwork of the squad in a mission-oriented way, aside from just base captures.
Hope that made some sense. The post just got bigger and bigger I have too many ideas... :lol just trying to help out HTC making the game better and more enjoyable for all!
:salute
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IMHO, if the flight performance and airframe structural limits are modeled as accurately as possible, accurate behavior will follow. That said, I have to admit that I very rarely see the sort of "Lancstuka" flying that is so obviously silly. Hats off to the Historically Accurate Bomber Flyers! :salute
Never thought of this one, Turner, "...Remember, some of those guns were hand held. The hand held guns should have less accuracy than the ones sited in turrets." Anyone here remember the bullet dispersal study that Ogre did back in WarBirds? He proved, with careful and thorough math, that in RL it would be almost impossible to score hits at the long ranges that are commonplace in our games.
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33Vortex, for what it's worth, here's my opinion on the topic:
1) Bomber guys who fly their bomber(s) as they were fighter planes, maneuvers such as loops, sudden steep climbs and unrecoverable dives (though perfectly doable ingame) are common. I have apsolutely no respect for this gamey behavior.
I do this sort of thing very often in the B-25H, largely because I can, and it's my only practical defence against fighters - many fighters will drop almost whatever they're doing to come kill a B-25, and if their gunnery is even half decent they'll have me down before I get one of my turrets turned in their direction. This is even more of a factor for the B-25H because it doesn't have formations.
If the plane is capable of such a manoeuver, I'd say it's justified because I think that HTC have modelled the AC very well.
An example of this is my stall fight last night with me in a B-25H vs an F4F. After the first HO (because it was the only shot I could get on him in the forseeable future, given how manoeuverable the F4F is), I lost some fuel, and a few of my 50 cals, whilst he lost half a wing. After he came back (and I ran out of 50cal ammo), I had resorted to shooting the 75mm at point blank range until he augured.
The reason I told that thing about the F4F just above was to show that the B-25H is actually quite a manoeuverable AC, especially for its size.
Due to the fact that the Lancaster (or B-17 etc) are capable of carrying out a loop, I'd say it should be allowed, however unless your bomber has fixed guns in the nose I'd say that doing such a thing is largely useless.
2) Bomber guys who fly their whole formation to a target, only to bail out of a perfectly working aircraft (or three) to quickly grab another formation. Denying interceptors guaranteed kills. If this is not gamey I don't know what is. To me it just looks stupid. :confused:
This is possibly the most annoying thing in the game (at least that I can think of at the moment).
3) Laser accuracy on defensive guns. Admittedly a problem of a lesser degree than the other ones but nevertheless firing all guns simultaneously from a whole formation of bombers represent concentrated firepower which is unreal. Remember, some of those guns were hand held. The hand held guns should have less accuracy than the ones sited in turrets. Gunnery is a very respectable skill, those who know how to shoot rather than pull gamey tricks earn points in my book.
You've got another good point here, however I doubt any possible 'solution' would be worth the trouble/have that much of an effect.
<S>
Yossarian
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leave those bomber drivers alone!! most of the stuff done in most of the aircraft in this game was never done by a live pilot, more than once!! i said it before,kill the ords if you don't like the bombers!! why should HTC make it easy for you to role a base without doing all the preparations necessary? if they are flying from distant bases to kill you , you took to long! as far as
cv's are concerned some of you might not remember, but the ack was increased about tenfold, not that long ago! and it made killing them alot more difficult!
if you don't want to see bombers bail, don't re-up after they kill you,
in no war ever in history, did a dead pilot get up in another plane to shoot down some bombers!
the only thing that could help would be a more isolated tank town group of bases!
some of the old maps have those. maybe the old tank town could be brought back, maybe in a well isolated area.
being in a tank should be no less difficult than in a plane in that you should always have S.A. check to see if your part of the map has dar, look at the radar, look up! just be cause you cant fly does not mean the air should not be a threat.
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Yossarian, the B25 has perfectly good reasons for being used the way you use it.
WWhiskey, it would be a much more pleasant discussion if you'd refrain from shouting, it is not necessary to get your point across. :)
What I'm after is more realistic flying. Ultimately it's up to the pilot, but imho there should be numerous incentives built into the game to fly realistically. Generally speaking that spells teamwork and coordination. Btw about the bailing issue, one way to counter it would be to make it impossible to bail out of a undamaged a/c. If you really are in a hurry and need to close things down there's always ALT + F4 anyway. ;)
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Yes Oleg I'm aware that the bombers could be quite nimble without their bomb load and reduced fuel load, a Boeing 707 is a long way from WW2 piston-engine bombers though. I'm just questioning to what degree the bombers could do the maneuvers we see them do ingame such as loops and what looks to be unrecoverable dives at high speeds, and why or when a pilot would carry out such high-risk maneuvers. Risking a plane and it's entire crew without good reason could not only get you killed but probably court martialed if you survived.
As long as plane characteristics and structural integrity allows you to do "crazy" maneuvers, you are free to do it. The rules are same for both fighters and bombers. If you think FM of some plane isnt real - prove it.
What kind of "risk" you talking about? Its a game, dammit. Or you trying to say, "risking" a bomber is wrong, but "risking" a fighter is ok? AH fighter pilots performs all sort of crappy/risky/gamey things every time, why it dont bother you? And i dont mean missing features like engine management or so.
btw, I am fighter pilot.
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As bad as I get whacked for my bomber killing technique (or lack there of), I don't think the bomber guns should be messed with. Bombers need to know that they have SOME defense against fighters. So don't mess with the guns IMO.
The ability of formations to do the impossible drives me nuts though. Not so much from a maneuvering standpoint but from a speed standpoint. IMO, if you take the formation option from the hangar, speeds should be 90% of the bombers max level speed in order to maintain that formation. If that speed is exceeded, the drones should be lost. As it stands right now, drones have to exceed their limitations to maintain the formation with a leader that has the throttle firewalled. This is especially true in any maneuvering situation. IMO, this (by itself) should at least slow the "stuka" problem in formation flight because if you nose over and exceed that 90% threshhold you just lost 66.6% of the bombs in your formation. Any lone bomber, however, should be able to do whatever the aircraft can handle as far as speed and maneuvering capabilities are concerned. This might add a level of immersion which shouldn't be too intensive and require some creative piloting on the part of the hard core bomber pilots without crippling them by making their guns less lethal.
I also like the idea of limiting the the ability of Norden equipped bombers to only be able to drop from the internal bombardier position.
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kill the ords
So, you just want to make me fly a few miles farther to kill you? Fine by me. Ive done sorties that run almost the entire length of the map and thought nothing of it. I dont mind moving another 20 miles behind the lines. Hell, it gives me more time to get my B-17s that much higher! And it will do the same for any dweeb gaming the bomber.
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OK i know im stepping into this late but having ridden in the door of a UH 60 Blackhawk on many occasions i feel I have some knowledge of what I am about to say.
I do not want to be the waisit gunners navigator or radio man on any bomber preforming a role or loop in the 1940's :eek: They did not have near the safety equipment that exits today. whats more i admire the nerve of the pilots in WW2 on all sides that had the nerve to fly straight and level into a fight believing in the team the whole way. :salute
Just my 2 cents.
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if you don't want to see bombers bail, don't re-up after they kill you
If heavy bombers fly at the altitudes they are designed for, the dead fighter pilot would not be able to get back up to them before they were out of range. Fighter bases under attack could refuel and rearm or scramble extra aircraft if needed/or if they were available. An attacking bomber force could not. The only reason a downed fighter could get back up to you would be they either up an Me 163, you are at low altitude, or you are flying circles bombing specific targets unlike the carpet bombing that would have been used because of the inaccuracies of bomb sighting equipment. Either way your argument fails. I know several dedicated buff drivers, for them the entire mission is what is fun. The use of escorts increases the likelihood of you making it home exponentially. Many pilots are more than happy to provide escort if you ask on country.
When I fly buffs, though rarely these days, I would put it in auto climb after bomb drop and fend off fighters. I would not think to stick stir a heavy bomber or fly acrobatics the airframes were not designed for. The dump and jump was one of the reasons I left my old squad. I think it is repulsive. You expect to see this behavior from the kids, but there is too much of it occurring to statistically validate that is who is doing it.
In essence, what you are saying is since the fighter base you attacked is close to the fight and defending pilots can re-up and reengage, you should be able to bail to get back to the fight and drop the fighter hangars as soon as possible by not having to make the return trip home first. You know, I do not see pilots of fighter/bombers fly with this mentality. I have yet to see a P-51 conduct a jabo sortie and bail to up another jabo sortie without returning to base first. I guess Forest could say it best, "Gamey is as gamey does." :salute
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If heavy bombers fly at the altitudes they are designed for, the dead fighter pilot would not be able to get back up to them before they were out of range. Fighter bases under attack could refuel and rearm or scramble extra aircraft if needed/or if they were available. An attacking bomber force could not. The only reason a downed fighter could get back up to you would be they either up an Me 163, you are at low altitude, or you are flying circles bombing specific targets unlike the carpet bombing that would have been used because of the inaccuracies of bomb sighting equipment. Either way your argument fails. I know several dedicated buff drivers, for them the entire mission is what is fun. The use of escorts increases the likelihood of you making it home exponentially. Many pilots are more than happy to provide escort if you ask on country.
When I fly buffs, though rarely these days, I would put it in auto climb after bomb drop and fend off fighters. I would not think to stick stir a heavy bomber or fly acrobatics the airframes were not designed for. The dump and jump was one of the reasons I left my old squad. I think it is repulsive. You expect to see this behavior from the kids, but there is too much of it occurring to statistically validate that is who is doing it.
In essence, what you are saying is since the fighter base you attacked is close to the fight and defending pilots can re-up and reengage, you should be able to bail to get back to the fight and drop the fighter hangars as soon as possible by not having to make the return trip home first. You know, I do not see pilots of fighter/bombers fly with this mentality. I have yet to see a P-51 conduct a jabo sortie and bail to up another jabo sortie without returning to base first. I guess Forest could say it best, "Gamey is as gamey does." :salute
i don't think your getting the point, if you fly them up high, say 25000 or more,(by the way i used too do this all the time) you get chewed on for porking!
the fighters want you low enough so the can shoot you down,but please don't shoot back, or steer the plane more than 2 degrees, they would rather just have you leave it on auto, while going too get a beer or something,
o and you can,t bomb anything but factories, no hangers, or tanks!(personally i like to bomb planes on the rearm pad from about 6000 feet) i very rarely ever bomb from outside the plane tho, if its got an f-6 sight i use it, yet i can hit any target at most any alt.from 500 feet for shoreline bases or CV,s all the way up to 33500 feet (as high as lancs will go )for fields and factories! the only thing i think of as special that i do in my lancs is the high stall turn, just like they do them in the movie Dam Busters, and i am pretty sure they were historically accurate, but i bet if you saw me do one you would think i was showing off, in my lanc's
in essence , the bomber pilot is the big joke of it all, yet without us, alot of players wouldn't have landed that first
HOST: 88934276 landed 3 kills in a stearman of I'm a newb!
there wouldn't be all that cannon fodder for those pilots that cant find anybody else to engage, and there wouldn't be anything for the newbs who don't pick up fighters right away but still want to fly, god knows you cant just up a tank in the game if your a newb without becoming cannon fodder yourself, for, o, a month, or so, till someone tells you how to see those little spots out there down that long small hole,( up arrow zoom keys) lol
and yet the only complaint a bomber pilot has is the fighter who you just shot down, is on your six again, and again while you are trying to get home, especially if you have flown a few sectors into enemy territory!
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I like the idea of limiting speed when in formation mode, just because it makes sense.
I posted a long time ago, that barrel rolls and loops in heavy bombers should have a negative effect on the gunners, knocking them out, or throwing them way out of position, or killing them.
I have no problem with a bomber pilot using rudder to keep the tail towards the fighter, or using other defensive tactics.
When he pulls the trigger to fire all, the lazer guns look kinda cheesy.
If they could be randomized where the guns you aren't in shoot in some sort of short staggered delay pattern, and they hit the target within a box and not in the same spot, it wouldn't be so bad.
I mean it's like 12 guys from 3 different bombers going.. 1.. 2... 3... fire, and they share the same brain and can all hit the exact same target at the exact same time, every time.
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I wont ever "chew" on a bomber pilot for going over my team's airfield at 20k+ alt. That is the way it should be done. There are plently of planes that A> climb like a fart in a cold room (see 109G-2/G-14/K4) or B> move fast enough to intercept a bomber formation (see 190D-9, Jug, Typhoon, etc).
I will chew on pilots for dive bombing their Lancs, or performing a snap turn in their B24's at 1000ft. Seeing either of those is quite the boner killer because I know their is someone abusing the game and not playing the sim and I'm the target.
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I didn't read all the posts but back when I was flying Lancs all the time I'd often dogfight in a single Lanc at altitude (over 20K). I'd do it after I was down to one plane and usually was bingo ammo.
The Lanc is a very strong flyer over 20K and I was able to out duel several opponents. I specifically remember one night running a P-51 out of ammo.
Anyway, I suspect that if they can do that in the game that they could probably do the same in real life although they likely didn't for the most part. I'd hate to see the loss of the planes inherent capabilities to accomodate gameplay.
That said, I don't think formations should be able to do this without losing both drones to proxie kills.
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A Lanc? Dogfighting a mustang? At 20,000'? In real life? During daytime?
The Lanc is a very strong flyer over 20K and I was able to out duel several opponents. I specifically remember one night running a P-51 out of ammo.
Anyway, I suspect that if they can do that in the game that they could probably do the same in real life although they likely didn't for the most part. I'd hate to see the loss of the planes inherent capabilities to accomodate gameplay.
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I didn't read all the posts but back when I was flying Lancs all the time I'd often dogfight in a single Lanc at altitude (over 20K). I'd do it after I was down to one plane and usually was bingo ammo.
The Lanc is a very strong flyer over 20K and I was able to out duel several opponents. I specifically remember one night running a P-51 out of ammo.
Anyway, I suspect that if they can do that in the game that they could probably do the same in real life although they likely didn't for the most part. I'd hate to see the loss of the planes inherent capabilities to accomodate gameplay.
That said, I don't think formations should be able to do this without losing both drones to proxie kills.
LOL. Come on... be serious. There are so many things that are able to be done in this AH2 simgame that were in no way shape or form able to be done in WWII... and vise-versa. Just becasue some guys programmed a simgame to do something doesnt mean it could be done in the actual plane.... LOL! :lol Seriously... you ought to know better.
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So, you just want to make me fly a few miles farther to kill you? Fine by me. Ive done sorties that run almost the entire length of the map and thought nothing of it. I dont mind moving another 20 miles behind the lines. Hell, it gives me more time to get my B-17s that much higher! And it will do the same for any dweeb gaming the bomber.
dude your right lol i think that way to kill the ord and pretty soon i will be flying at 30k and you fighters and whatever wont be touching me or my sortie partners, :aok
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Somebody got owned by lame bombers and came here to whine about it.
0.33 for the OP.
I dont like it anymore then you do Vortex but we also have snap-rolling Bostons and rocket-assisted RAMs and dive bombing Lancs and all manner of foolishness far more lame then this.
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Somebody got owned by lame bombers and came here to whine about it.
This just about sums it all up, move along, nothing else to see here...... :lol
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What I see is too much blaming, self-righteousness and hybris going on, on these boards and indeed ingame too. Very little constructive critizism and friendly discussions, if any. Intelligent discussions? Very very few.
Why can that be? Too many people with a need to prove their self importance.
I'm off for a bath, spent 14 hrs at work today go figure.
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If a fighter is attacking the 6 of a B17 formation, the likely guns that would fire are the upper,lower and tail turrets depending on alt. If it was a high attack, the upper and tail of bomber would fire, and from turrets. Any bomber that had a shot would fire. Realistically some gunners may be better than others, but since most attacks are done rather carelessly in here by fighters, even an average trained gunner would likely score hits.
Remember many people in fighters in here hang back at 1000 and lob rounds at the bombers getting hits as well. The main thing to remember is we have much more practice at gunnery than do the real life guys of WW2 had. That and its a video game. Some of the lead I take in shooting at an attacking fighter in a high 6 slashing attack is as much as 8 wingspans at times. Its not so much the lazer affect, as it is practice and knowing how to aim the guns in this game. Practice due to hours of playing. I often wonder how a tank can kill my tank at long range while im full speed 90 degree deflection...practice. The guy does it alot.
If you do something enough, you cant help but get better at it.
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The Lancaster was an extremely dependable and maneuverable aircraft
- LANCASTER AT WAR, Advantage Media Group
The RAF Bomber Command crews loved the aircraft because it was maneuverable and could take a heavy punishment.
Strengths:
Highly maneuverable (for an aircraft of that size), enabling it to outmaneuver German nightfighters.
- http://www.xs4all.nl/~fbonne/warbirds/ww2htmls/avrolanc.html
The Lancaster's greater maneuverability and bomb load, much greater than any other Allied bomber, meant they were used more and more on the major and better defended targets.
- http://users.tpg.com.au/adsls7ld/planes.html
The tail gunner fulfilled a second role as a lookout for attacking enemy fighters, particularly in British bombers operating at night. As these aircraft operated individually instead of being part of a bombing formation, the bombers' first reaction to an attacking night fighter was to engage in radical evasive maneuvers such as a corkscrew roll; firing guns in defense was of secondary importance.
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tail_gunner
In this scene Canadian Lancaster pilot Neil Fuller is portrayed in the opening round of a Berlin bombing run. Here he is guiding his Lancaster “Fearless Freddie’s Office” through the perils of a so called “Milk Run” in early 1944, just before D Day. Hundreds more Lancasters can be seen emerging from the darkness, approaching the target area which will soon be glowing as bright as day from the fires below.
A typical bombing run would start at about 20,000 to 25,000 feet and Neil would start a slow decent toward the target to pick up speed. As soon as the bombs were on their way, he would immediately turn 90 degrees and dive to about 6,000 feet in an attempt to avoid enemy fighters waiting on the far side of the target area. In this scene ME110 fighters can be seen approaching from the rear and Neil’s gunners are applying their best effort to discourage them. One more ME110 is commencing a flair drop to illuminate the entire area for other fighters.
The famous and highly successful Avro Lancaster depended on stealth and the cover of night to carry out its mission. If they were discovered, the .303 cal machine guns on board were often no match for the 20mm cannon of the opposing fighters. The Lancasters would approach the target in several streams of many aircraft. Often over 1000 aircraft would pass over the target within a 15 minute time period
- http://www.aircraftbuzz.com/Aircraft-Buzz/Gallery-cat.asp?media1Id=801
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I believe it's been mentioned but i'll say it again, it's a game, it does a great job of being fairly acurate to WWII, but it's a game none the less and there will be people trying to find loop holes and taking advantage of flaws and just playing it their way and ruining it for the pureists who would like to play the game the way it was meant to be played.
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If a fighter is attacking the 6 of a B17 formation, the likely guns that would fire are the upper,lower and tail turrets depending on alt. If it was a high attack, the upper and tail of bomber would fire, and from turrets. Any bomber that had a shot would fire. Realistically some gunners may be better than others, but since most attacks are done rather carelessly in here by fighters, even an average trained gunner would likely score hits.
Remember many people in fighters in here hang back at 1000 and lob rounds at the bombers getting hits as well. The main thing to remember is we have much more practice at gunnery than do the real life guys of WW2 had. That and its a video game. Some of the lead I take in shooting at an attacking fighter in a high 6 slashing attack is as much as 8 wingspans at times. Its not so much the lazer affect, as it is practice and knowing how to aim the guns in this game. Practice due to hours of playing. I often wonder how a tank can kill my tank at long range while im full speed 90 degree deflection...practice. The guy does it alot.
If you do something enough, you cant help but get better at it.
Some guys have a scary ability to hit attacking fighters, even when carrying out diving attacks. That if anything is respectable, I don't mind getting shot down. That's what some people really take backwards. Getting shot down is part of the game if you can't handle it don't play it. This is a post intended to give a fighter pilot's perspective of what could be considered "gamey" concerning bombers. Right now I don't think these things are a priority for HTC but since there was a thread going debating the issue of "lancstukas", a problem I see little or nothing of as I fly fighters most of the time. I have no beef with bomber guys or gunners (or whoever for that matter) who know how to shoot. Like I said, it's a very respectable skill. Fearsome even, it gets you killed, nothing to joke about or belittle.
Quite a few have taken up the argument to kill ords. In many situations it's not a viable option unless you have a whole squad doing it, spreading out to take out a whole area. Even if you can manage it, it is only for a limited time. The issues I've taken up I don't see as huge problems that ruin the game, but merely something that could be improved upon.
There are so many ways people can misunderstand a post it's bound to happen, especially when people do it more or less aware of what they're doing. I don't have the patience to maintain a prolonged discussion on a bbs as people more often than not try to undermine arguments and discredit posters. In fact, I don't have the patience to maintain a discussion with a person irl who consistently and more or less intently misinterprete what I say. Do you? Just not worth the time to bother imo. Respect is a misconception around here, people think they have to earn it some way or another by being cool. Wrong. Respect is a given, until you prove otherwise.
Agree with CAVPFCDD, there's always going to be people who "game the game" taking it to redicilous levels.
Those of you who repeatedly shout about killing ords or think that I or we are jumping on you or your way of having fun ingame, please take some time to relax.
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The other day I took a 109K4 for a ride. Soon a dar con showed on the map towards the base I had just taken off.
A formation of Lancasters at some 16+k. As they did their passes, I climbed on WEP, discarding the DT as I crossed 10k, and started the chase. Climbing slightly I soon was par with him ,some 3k to his starboard side, some 2k higher, and slowly gaining on him. When he was on my 7-8 o clock, turned towards them for a HO pass. I missed and exitted as fast as I could. Climbed a bit, surpassed him again, but then I noticed he was lower, and much faster.
To make a long story short: the whole formation of Lancs did a 400mph IAS high speed long, shallow dive from 16-17 to 3k altitude (where he was covered by his fleet's ack). I could do very little about it, the 109's controls freeze at 420mph IAS as you all know, and I couldn't maneouver well for my passes so only in the end after a very aggressive attack that put me at his direct low 6 (and after risking my skin to be fried by his deffensive guns which indeed got quite some hits on me) I could pop some 30mms on one of his drones, already with fleet ack shooting at me and an enemy field nearby.
Broke contact, congratulated the pilot on a smart move, and rtb/landed. The pursuit had lasted for about a whole sector since he started his high speed dive, but I couldn't do very well against 400mph+ IAS bombers fearing as I do their pinpoint laser multi-barreled defensive fire accuracy. I had some 3-4 passes on him, but only on the last one and risking my virtual skin I achieved to get solid hits.
Net result: 20 minutes of chase and hunt to get just one drone and be forced to break off because the enemy formation flew at fighter speeds in perfect bomber formation. And I was lucky, last pass was from his dead 6 o clock' low, if I wasn't blazed to bits is because of sheer and pure luck.
The next two interceptions I did ended with dead engines aboard Fw190A8s because of lazer accuracy from defensive guns, fired from bombers flying in perfect formation at top speed, fired at a fighter coming at them at high speeds ,from avobe, and from lateral positions (approaches from 4-8 o clock in high speed dives).
Since then I simply refuse to attack heavy bombers flying in formation. They are fighter deathtraps unless they're looking elsewhere or someone has already killed their drones.
I'm not advocating for change or not change of bombers. But as they are now they are not bombers, they are flying highly dangerous gameplay concessions. It's fine with me, though, I simply ignore them and have fun fighting everything else in the game :).
<S>
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To make a long story short: the whole formation of Lancs did a 400mph IAS high speed long, shallow dive from 16-17 to 3k altitude (where he was covered by his fleet's ack). I could do very little about it, the 109's controls freeze at 420mph IAS as you all know, and I couldn't maneouver well for my passes so only in the end after a very aggressive attack that put me at his direct low 6 (and after risking my skin to be fried by his deffensive guns which indeed got quite some hits on me) I could pop some 30mms on one of his drones, already with fleet ack shooting at me and an enemy field nearby.
What wrong here? On the contrary, it was very clever, fair and realistic move, imho. It littile weird what drones still able to mantain formation, but I dont sure what they must do. Asking for loosing drones due to "overspeed" (not real overspeed, cause drones are same as lead plane) in such situation is silly at least. (anyway, i hate when bombers do this to me, because it makes them much harder targets :cry )
btw, I doubt lanc can do 400mhp IAS though, last time I tried, it riped apart after ~350mph or so, if I remember correctly.
So called "lazer accuracy" is myth spreaded by ppl who think bombers must be just dead meat, and got pissed alot if they loose.
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Some guys have a scary ability to hit attacking fighters, even when carrying out diving attacks. That if anything is respectable, I don't mind getting shot down. That's what some people really take backwards. Getting shot down is part of the game if you can't handle it don't play it. This is a post intended to give a fighter pilot's perspective of what could be considered "gamey" concerning bombers. Right now I don't think these things are a priority for HTC but since there was a thread going debating the issue of "lancstukas", a problem I see little or nothing of as I fly fighters most of the time. I have no beef with bomber guys or gunners (or whoever for that matter) who know how to shoot. Like I said, it's a very respectable skill. Fearsome even, it gets you killed, nothing to joke about or belittle.
Quite a few have taken up the argument to kill ords. In many situations it's not a viable option unless you have a whole squad doing it, WRONG, One plane can take out ords in a large air base if you learn some skill spreading out to take out a whole area. Even if you can manage it, it is only for a limited time. The issues I've taken up I don't see as huge problems that ruin the game, but merely something that could be improved upon.
There are so many ways people can misunderstand a post it's bound to happen, especially when people do it more or less aware of what they're doing. I don't have the patience to maintain a prolonged discussion on a bbs as people more often than not try to undermine arguments and discredit posters. In fact, I don't have the patience to maintain a discussion with a person irl who consistently and more or less intently misinterprete what I say. Do you? Just not worth the time to bother imo. Respect is a misconception around here, people think they have to earn it some way or another by being cool. Wrong. Respect is a given, until you prove otherwise.
Agree with CAVPFCDD, there's always going to be people who "game the game" taking it to redicilous levels.
Those of you who repeatedly shout about killing ords or think that I or we are jumping on you or your way of having fun ingame, please take some time to relax.
There is currently two threads that are similar but share one thing in common, BOMBERS.
Both have someone in them complaining about bombers yet bottom line as well as you admit, DO NOT FLY THEM or understand them.
Bombers are a key instrument in this game, not just fighters, to complain about gamey bombing in this game is one argument and should be addressed to limit that.
However in this thread and the other, it morphs into the brink of getting rid of bombers altogether, that's where I have a problem with this gibberish.
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I have never even considered the alternative to get rid of bombers altogether, they are a necessary and natural part of the game. Where do you even get that from? :huh
I think you're misunderstanding something, and why is it that you have to type in such big letters, it's not necessary. Also, to state that "One plane can take out ords in a large air base if you learn some skill" is to take a very arrogant stance which is counterproductive if you want people to take you seriously.
So called "lazer accuracy" is myth spreaded by ppl who think bombers must be just dead meat, and got pissed alot if they loose.
Oleg, please don't assume such things. In the original post I never mentioned such a thing as "lazer accuracy" and I don't think anyone in this discussion think that bombers should be dead meat, even if they use such terms.
To state my own opinion concerning bomber formations as targets. Bombers are easy to shoot down, but it's totally dependant on the bomber pilot and if he has a good gunner or can gun himself. Some bombers are impossible to shoot down, because the guy know what he's doing, but most bombers are easy targets, because the guy is not aware of all the defensive actions he can take, or has put himself in a really bad position. Taking off from a front field for example is a deathwish (for anyone really not just bombers).
The same applies to fighters actually, some guys seem almost untouchable. People get frustrated and call them cowards, picktards or whatnot. It's a proof of skill, to fly in a way so that you don't get shot down, it's undisputable regardless of what plane you're in. However, some maneuvers carried out do strike me as kindof gamey, and it's not limited to bombers alone.
The blame game here and in game is a result of misunderstandings and misiterpretations, not taking into account hurt egos of shot down pilots. If you can't stand getting shot down, don't play the game, it's that simple. I don't discuss with people calling me, or anyone else for that matter, names only because they can't shoot me down. To me it just proves their frustration and lack of skill to counter mine. I respect those who shoot me down, especially those who I have met on equal terms in a good fight. However, the nature of war is such that if you take on someone in a fair fight you've failed already. You want to strike fast and hard at a enemy unaware, is the ideal. If someone catch me unaware, kudos to him/her. That is my standpoint.
In the end it's a game, it simulates air combat real well imo but like I said there's always room for improvement.
Did that straighten a few things out for you guys? I can only speak for myself but I don't think anyone want to get rid of bombers, that's a very stupid thing to believe.
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Oleg, please don't assume such things. In the original post I never mentioned such a thing as "lazer accuracy"...
Hm? :huh
3) Laser accuracy on defensive guns.
The next two interceptions I did ended with dead engines aboard Fw190A8s because of lazer accuracy from defensive guns...
... and I don't think anyone in this discussion think that bombers should be dead meat, even if they use such terms.
May be you not, but many think exactly so. Its not first thread about bombers after all.
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Desperate to evade the lights, Coulombe put the big Lancaster into a steep dive, soon exceeding the 350-mph dive-limit speed at 450 mph. At the last moment, feet on the instrument panel, he muscled the shuddering bomber out of its death-defying dive and slipped anonymously into the comforting darkness, away from the insidious searchlights.
- http://www.richthistle.com/article_include.php?i=a26_long_road_home.php
In a hard dive the prototype aircraft achieved speeds reaching almost 400 mph (644 km/h) with production aircraft (operational loadout) being limited to 360 mph (578 km/h).
- http://www.pilotfriend.com/photo_albums/timeline/ww2/Avro%20Lancaster.htm
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Hm? :huh
:lol
Sorry, I'd change that if I could. The term "laser accuracy" is quite stupid. Forgive me, I'm only human. :)
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Lets get the things straight, those lancs were going at 400mph IAS+. I had to really make do with a 109 with almost cemented controls in my passes and my closure rate was not exactly great. But I'm not discussing wether the 400mph IAS mark in a shallow dive is realistic or not, nor I'm discussing wether the player did well or not (he did an amazing job, and I congratulated him for it). I'm discussing wether a formation of lancasters would keep a perfect close formation while doing so. Something I highly doubt.
As for laser accuracy guns, I got two Fw190A8 engines shot out in high speed dives from the bomber's high 4 and 8 o clock respectively, at distances of 600-500 yards at the closest.
In my book that is laser accuracy, and this I can say for sure is NOT realistic given WW2 bomber gunner statistics of impacts on fighters attacking buff boxes. Whoever discusses the gunners in the buffs have a buffed up accuracy for gameplay purposes, simply don't play this game or simply don't know about historic facts. Either way, fact remains that buff gunnery is not realistic at all, and formations don't improve the situation at all.
as I say ,I'm fine with bombers as they are now, and I'm not calling for any change as others do here. I simply don't attack them unless they are peashooter bombers (junkers 88 ,bostons, etc), they are distracted by someone else, or they are without their formation. And that's all :). But I can understand those who are pissed off by their power within the game.
S!
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RAM all guns are fairly accurate on all things except maybe the base AA and some tank guns that seem to have a built in drift. Any fighter I shoot with, the tracers are all straight to target with no rogue rounds veering off. It just seems as its easier from a bomber because its a stable turret with the bomber flying level.
Ever shot a bombers guns at a spit16 or 190 coming in stirring the whole way? Thats no more fun than having the bomber shoot down your fighter, but its in the game, and we deal with it.
Im with you though, unless I think I can get away with it, I stay away from a B24/B17 while in a fighter.
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I hunt buffs all the time. I'm having an off camp but I'm still 29:5 against B-17's, B-24's, B-25's, B-26's and Lancasters. Normally I'd expect to be ~25:1. Most of those kills are in a Spit XVI with a few in the 109K-4 and the FW190A-8 although you can successfully buff hunt in anything. I was 3:1 against Lancs in a Spit I a couple of camps ago and at least three of my kills this camp came in a 109K-4 using only the 2x13mm's. To top it off, a few of my deaths this camp are to collisions, not guns.
The heavy buffs guns are accurate and deadly if you're climbing up their six. If you're dying a lot to heavies it's probably time to change tactics while attacking them.
BTW Ram, all you have to do in the K-4 is use manual elevator trim and it will give you all the dive speed you want.
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BTW Ram, all you have to do in the K-4 is use manual elevator trim and it will give you all the dive speed you want.
I know, but lateral corrections are much harder to do with trims only. And if you can't bank chances are you won't hit.
And I didn't, until the last "gung-ho" pass.
I don't have much more to discuss either, for me attacking heavies in formation is a receipt for a fast trip back to tower. If you kill buffs with 2x13mm, hats off to you, because I'm not even trying with 4x20mm anymore, go figure ;).