Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: dirtdart on November 25, 2008, 09:55:24 PM
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Ladies and Gentlemen, to begin, I am in the Army and I have served in armored units so I can say I speak with a shred of authority on this matter. I for one and tired of being shot by tanks whilst strafing the heck out of them in my new IL-2 of doom with those wicked 37mm guns. Imagine if you will the variables involved and the accuracy required to fire a 7.5 cm round around a kilometer and striking a target travelling 250 kts and changing both altitude and distance (vertically and laterally) at a tremendous rate. In a tank if you are not spot on with range you cannot hit another stationary tank, yet fire near an airplane and it explodes. All of this is somehow possible without the aid of computers, barometric pressure measuring devices, thermomters and so on. If you would please record yourself, if you indulge in the tank strafing, and see what I mean. I do admire the few who can pull it off, but is seems this is now the standard. I get popped consistently at 1k. Please do not read into this as a gripe, merely a fishing trip to see if there are others who have noticed this.
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ive noticed it myself. isnt always on the first or second pass, but i was in MW tonight and betty popped me at a 45 degree angle to her... i have served no time in the armed forces in anyway (to young) unless a junior member in the fire department counts; s o i have very little say in this matter other than what i see in game. :salute
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I have popped several aircraft this tour with the main gun on a tank. They were all coming directly toward the main gun. I don't remember the distance when I fired but it was under 1k. Don't need a fancy FCC for that kind of shot.
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My personal best...18 Ground to Air kills in one sortie in a Panzer! This was back a long time ago...and one of my witnesses was the dreaded drdeathx
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lol i got 8 last night in a t34/76, as for it being absurd, if you come in low enough for a gun to traverse and fire at you at less then 800, then you outta die. Only problem i have is there is instant co-ordination, no commander telling you location, elevation, and a turret that swings faster then it did in real life. other then that you shouldnt need to be that low to hit tanks anyway, making the armour in his tank have more angle and him to get a change to shoot at you. i come in high so only pintle will be able to shoot, i probably do come in low but they are usually on the move and i try not to pull out of my run infront of them. other then that enjoy my lack of grammer :P
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yes i have noticed this as well.
on more than one occasion i have been shot down by a tanks main gun. if in each event i was flying directly at the tank then i would take my medicine and just chock it all up to dumb arsed bad luck and flying stupidly straight into a gun. but this has not always been the case.
on no less than three occasions i have been dropped by a tank jock while in a turn fight with other enemy a/c. this is not even a remote possibility, the complexities of attempting that kind of shot is beyond the abilities of today's targeting systems (for a single shot against an opponent constantly changing its flight path speed and altitude).
i know that some modern tanks can fire one of two types of rounds that are intended to take down a hovering or slow moving chopper, (one being like a shotgun blast of pellets an another that is like a WWII AA shell with a proximity fuse) but they could not target and score a "direct hit" on an evasively moving a/c going 200 or 300 mph at a range that is so close that the a/c disappears from their screen faster than they can turn their turret or adjust their line of fire. they especially couldn't do it without the aid of a targeting computer, something that tanks just didn't have 60 years ago.
its just one of the many annoying quirks (lazer targeting for bombers, planes that fly without wings ect) that must be dealt with while playing this game. unfortunately i dont believe there is a way to adjust the coding to prevent this from happening without hurt the rest of the performance of the gv in some manner unintended.
so b**ch not fly more and just let it go.
FLOTSOM
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I think that the main reason you are seeing it is because more players are trying it. I've got 6-7 this tour with the main guns; prior to this tour I never attempted it because I just didn't think it was possible. Of course of those all of them were planes coming in to strafe me, except for one that stalled at 2k out, right in front of my guns as I was looking for an enemy tank. Couldn't resist trying :rofl
Look at it this way too; I've got like a 2.38% hit rate, which pretty much means I waste a LOT of ammo for every kill I get. Averages say that eventually something will hit....
What I find more irritating is hearing ONE "tink" from a plane and finding myself in the tower :furious If you can one-hit us, I think it is only fair the main gun impacts every once in a while....
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its a game :salute its great to fire on a low plane that is strafing you down and u can hail mary it. i miss more than hit but have goten those holy cow side angle shots . its good for the game to have equilizers .
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Since the remodel, the skies are full of IL2's looking and succeeding in destroying any and all GV'rs. One ping the turret is out, ping two engine dies, ping three your cartoon life is a memory. The only defence one has is to kill the low flying plane comming directly at you fro 500 out. Realism factor, well I dont think pilots would come in that low with little angle. I would think real pilots would come in somewhere from 30 - 45 degrees. That would make it highly unlikely to be killed by a tank.
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I took a look at my stats from some time ago (2006). Roughly 10% of all my kills in a Panzer were IL-2's trying to strafe me. If you can see down the barrel of my tank, you're doing it wrong, and you're just inviting me to put a big piece of lead up your nose. An IL-2 makes a big target coming right at a tank. The great part of it is, the better the pilot is able to hold his nose on target, the easier shot it is for me.
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Probably unrealistic but it is no different than taking a lead shot on a M8 moving at 55mph - shoot where he will be when the round reaches your target. I have hundreds of main gun air kills up to 2k out. Not wise to fly straight at barrel you should die 99% of the time even by those not very good at tanking yet as a 600 yd shot at a plane flying steady to get good stafing or missle shot in is a no brainer. Panzer is best at this although T34 almost as potent. Ask around its not luck when a decent tanker blows the crap out of the same guy 10 times in a row coming low and straight ( or on auto climb coming off field - who needs a computer to calculate that shot-LOL) into main gun range. Don't need fast turret tanks have treads just turn tank into attacking air plane ( or anything for that matter as heaviest armor in front) in first gear and stop to fire. I can't understand how an IL2 37mm can turret a tank with 1 round when an ostwind can fire tons of 37mm rounds dropping onto turret top with arched shot with a fairly similar angle of attack of rounds with little to no effect. Armor piercing as opposed to HE I suppose. BTW Thanks for your service to our great country ..if only the real world was so simple us regenerating cartoon warriors would of whooped the terrorist and got you all home by now:)<S>
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Ladies and Gentlemen, to begin, I am in the Army and I have served in armored units so I can say I speak with a shred of authority on this matter. I for one and tired of being shot by tanks whilst strafing the heck out of them in my new IL-2 of doom with those wicked 37mm guns. Imagine if you will the variables involved and the accuracy required to fire a 7.5 cm round around a kilometer and striking a target travelling 250 kts and changing both altitude and distance (vertically and laterally) at a tremendous rate. In a tank if you are not spot on with range you cannot hit another stationary tank, yet fire near an airplane and it explodes. All of this is somehow possible without the aid of computers, barometric pressure measuring devices, thermomters and so on. If you would please record yourself, if you indulge in the tank strafing, and see what I mean. I do admire the few who can pull it off, but is seems this is now the standard. I get popped consistently at 1k. Please do not read into this as a gripe, merely a fishing trip to see if there are others who have noticed this.
What unit were/are you with?
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In an exercise in Sweden 1982 I was awarded a helicopter kill @ 1000 yards with my IKV91 tank .
We did , however, use target computer for our 9cm gun.
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yet fire near an airplane and it explodes.
I doubt that ... the tank round actually has to strike the airplane. So, if anyone is lucky enough to put a tank round on a plane, then it's going to be a real bad sortie for that pilot.
I have had a few in my day and one doesn't need a computer to pop 110's or IL-2s at 200-400D, coming in at 20ft AGL straight as an arrow.
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and a turret that swings faster then it did in real life.
Any you know this how ? ... you have some resource that HTC doesn't have in regards to the rates that the tanks can slew their turrets ?
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the bottom line is , don't fly into or towards the barrel,(look before you leap) i have maybe 15 or more kills of planes this way, mostly b25's or IL-2's, at a range of about 600, if the plane is flying strait at you ( and he is because he is trying to aim his 75mm gun at you) the gun sight in the tank is almost full of airplane, pretty simple point and squeeze move there, an ostwind is no better than a main round of a tank gun in its ability to hit a moving flying target, the difference is your ability to see a bigger picture of that target and many more rounds to fire so as to get an idea as to where to fire the next round. having a tank hit you the first shot is no different than getting hit with the first round of an ostwind. i would have to give kudos to 'triumph' tho, he hit me at 1.5k at an angle, while i was in a ju-87 climbing out, i wanted to cuss like a , well i wanted to cuss some, but then after i thought about it , i remembered that i had gotten close to that far out before, and simply <<S>> such a great shot! :salute
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Well, I am glad to see the posts and agree to all, just a quirk I noticed with the game and wanted to talk, not b**ch about it.... If you film your death by tank you will find the round not hitting you, but actually flying by you and that is the point I wanted to make. If there is some sort of a spatial kill zone affixed to a tank round in terms of pixels or whatever than so be it, it would just be nice to know, that is all. It is the absence of this knowledge that fuels the BBS and the rumor of cheats and so on. I just like knowing stuff up front.
A few years ago (to answer a poster) I was in 2-7 Cav (GHOST) Garryowen Regiment.
At any rate, to those who besmudge the IL2 and it's lethality, well it is about time we had a good attack plane with antiarmor capability. Too bad we can't load 75mm AP into the B-25H. What about the anti-armor cannon pods for the JU-87 eh.........
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You're seeing the round not hitting you, they are seeing the round directly hitting you. If you watched his film you would see an accurate shot.
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Well, I am glad to see the posts and agree to all, just a quirk I noticed with the game and wanted to talk, not b**ch about it.... If you film your death by tank you will find the round not hitting you, but actually flying by you and that is the point I wanted to make. If there is some sort of a spatial kill zone affixed to a tank round in terms of pixels or whatever than so be it, it would just be nice to know, that is all. It is the absence of this knowledge that fuels the BBS and the rumor of cheats and so on. I just like knowing stuff up front.
What you are describing is not what you think it is, and is not unique to tank rounds. It has to do with the slight difference between what you see and what he sees due to internet lag. Look at any film where you are hit, and chances are pretty good you will see tracers fly past your aircraft but hear the hits. The thing is, in his "reality" on his PC, he sees hit sprites, not tracers flying past.
Next time you are near a town where WWs or Ostis are taking down the town, watch where it looks like their shots are going. Often it will look like they are shooting short or long, but buildings are blowing up anyway. It is the same concept, and not anything that can be "corrected."
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Very interesting. Yes, I did film it and have seen it. The lag thing is interesting. Well, thanks to those who gave input.
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oh god, memories, about 3 months ago i was in a sherman and there was a lancaster flying away from me at 2.5 k, as he was turning back to make another run on me i fired,
i plucked his wing off at 2.5k in the middle of the turn, and that has been my furthest and best shot yet.
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it's called leading your target i get hits on most planes except 262's,if they come in low enough,and i see them soon enough.with the pintle gun on my panzer. if u lead the target right u can hit it.and if they persist in attacking me i have and will shoot u down.
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If I'm low and straight on with a tank I don't mind getting popped by the main gun. The shots that bother me are the shots where I'm diving in at 30 degrees or higher AOA or my all time favorite is when the tank misses you the first shot and then pops you as soon as he reloads at 180 degrees from the first shot whilst the plane is in a hi yo-yo. My main gun won't turn 180 faster than a plane will and I can't seem to elevate my gun to 45 degrees or higher for a shot. It is also almost always the shermans that do this. Amazing or gamey...you choose.
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So what im takeing from this is that tanks should just sit there and be fauder for any IL2 or B-25 that wants to shoot at them and not attempt to defend themselves?? I DONT THINK SO if any IL2 or B-25 not to mention any other plane comes in at an angle where i can get a bead on them with my tank i'll main gun em in a heartbeat. The pintle guns on all the tanks in this game are weak and getting maingunned is the pilots fault for trying to strafe a tank at a less than optimal attitude. Comming in on a tank at 200ft in a gradual dive will get ya owned everytime. Besides it makes a good story to tell the grandkids :rofl
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lol
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I shoot down planes quite often with the m-8,I`ve even begun telling others to use it as you would a ostwind.Not saying it`s right,but :aokit`s effective.
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I think I shoot more planes down with tanks than with an Osti, it is a little to easy.
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I've become quite a good shot in a shore battery hitting the low goon heading into a base, and have taken out several stupidly low bombers as well. Depending on the angle of the bombers, all 3 can be destroyed in 1 shot. Makes for a big explosion. :O
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I complained to skuzzy..... there is just no way a lousy 88 round should hurt my Super 38. It has stressed skin and all. :noid
:D
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ive done it some myself its not easy to do if you're not used to it but it isnt impossible when the plane is coming straight at you. i usually wait till it is 200-400 out and then shoot.
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I complained to skuzzy..... there is just no way a lousy 88 round should hurt my Super 38. It has stressed skin and all. :noid
lets see 88mm amour piercing round,against thin alumanim panel----hmmmm---i think ap round wins
and the he round will mess up your day as well--it explodes with steel balls or schrapnel <---mispelled.
it's been done in real life..and i've shot down 5 planes in 6 month's with ap.quit whining
:D
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Last night it happened again i set up between base and town at a base we were working on and a IL2 ups makes a hard right turn and comes at my M4 at 50' off the deck so i popped him and figured he wouldnt do that again. But what's he do ups and turns hard right and comes at me agin 50' and i pop him again this happened 4 times while another IL2 comes in at a steep ange and tracks me.However even tracked the other IL2 keeps doing this and keeps getting maingunned. I was yellin at my screen for him to stop!!! i felt sorry for the guy.
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If I'm low and straight on with a tank I don't mind getting popped by the main gun. The shots that bother me are the shots where I'm diving in at 30 degrees or higher AOA or my all time favorite is when the tank misses you the first shot and then pops you as soon as he reloads at 180 degrees from the first shot whilst the plane is in a hi yo-yo. My main gun won't turn 180 faster than a plane will and I can't seem to elevate my gun to 45 degrees or higher for a shot. It is also almost always the shermans that do this. Amazing or gamey...you choose.
If you're coming in at a high enough angle, he won't be able to hit you. If he hits you with the main gun, you're doing it wrong.
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moin
do you all knew that Otto Carius (tiger comander) Guner killed a il2 with his 8,8cm gun like AHII stile. must be in late 43.
it happens realy in real life :O. ok it was luck i think but in ah you need luck too. the diverence is that we all hade more fire practice than every guner of ww2 did have.
cu chris3
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I dont care if it happened in real life and even if it is gamey... I believe the tank gun sights are a little better in AH then in RL and I dont have a problem with that. You should expect to die if you are in an IL2 and the same goes for tanks. Fun/fun and win/win and all that... Think of it as game concessions if you must but dont whine about it man!
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(http://www.freeroleentertainment.com/sherman.JPG)
additional film: http://www.freeroleentertainment.com/shermanAntiair.ahf
(http://www.freeroleentertainment.com/sherman.JPG)
not exactly diving low to the ground within 600yds...
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My best lucky shot was at 1.5 on an il2..... angle shot i just pulled the trigger and watched the tracer as it flew... used the force so to speak..... Now keep in mind that thats not really a dupilcatable shot just pure luck.
BUT It really easy to shoot il2 or any plane down at 800 out .....You guys fly st right in down the barrel of the tank.... It actually really hard to MISS..... You all hold it so straight and steady on the way in..... :devil
<S>
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All low level attacks on tanks are HOs. ;)
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best shot was low lancs trying to carpet bomb me. i parked on the up slant of a hill and popped his arse at 2.5. most ground to air kills in a tank i think would have been 56. most of the planes where airborn
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Well I've never gotten more than a couple planes in a single tank sortie, but my favorite shot(s) I had a couple months ago. Lancasters were diving (pretty steep angle) at a V-base on my 12, perpendicular to my movement. When I fired the shot, icon showed 3k, so I gave him about that in increased gun angle. Fired where he would be in 10 secs or so after leveling out, and laughed as I blasted off his drone's tail with an HE round. He decides to and get some distance, then finally turns back around. Coming more or less right at me this time, (slightly off-kilter though) I drop his 2nd drone at 2.5k. Took a couple more shots at his final bomber, but never got him. That would have been classic :)
Now in this case, I almost felt bad for the guy. (almost...he was still stuka-lanc'ing) He was no where near me, and in neither case was he coming dead on toward my Sherman. That being said, the vast majority of tank-plane kills I get are idiots coming in low angle, as has been noted many times. If you have to come in at low angle, for gods sake look what way the barrel is facing. If your staring down it, you may want to change attack. :)
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This is why tanks should not have icon range over 2k. :rock
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How about a 190 away shot! Heres the film shot is at 1.08! http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=d65e52f34eaab177d2db6fb9a8902bda
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Proof it is too easy to shoot a plane with a tank shell in AH
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You telling me that if someone flys a real airplane right down the barrel of a real tank..... You should not be able to shoot it at 800 yards..... I bet its easier in real life... Just no one ever does it... and there would be plane wreckage everywere...
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Ladies and Gentlemen, to begin, I am in the Army and I have served in armored units so I can say I speak with a shred of authority on this matter. I for one and tired of being shot by tanks whilst strafing the heck out of them in my new IL-2 of doom with those wicked 37mm guns. Imagine if you will the variables involved and the accuracy required to fire a 7.5 cm round around a kilometer and striking a target travelling 250 kts and changing both altitude and distance (vertically and laterally) at a tremendous rate. In a tank if you are not spot on with range you cannot hit another stationary tank, yet fire near an airplane and it explodes. All of this is somehow possible without the aid of computers, barometric pressure measuring devices, thermomters and so on. If you would please record yourself, if you indulge in the tank strafing, and see what I mean. I do admire the few who can pull it off, but is seems this is now the standard. I get popped consistently at 1k. Please do not read into this as a gripe, merely a fishing trip to see if there are others who have noticed this.
There is a whole thread on air to air collisions and how unreal they are. The computer geeks have explained how this works, read it and see if itmakes any sence to you.
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You telling me that if someone flys a real airplane right down the barrel of a real tank..... You should not be able to shoot it at 800 yards..... I bet its easier in real life... Just no one ever does it... and there would be plane wreckage everywere...
No, I am saying that hitting planes with somewhat consistency at 3k is not accurate. Also look at my previous post in which someone hit a plane at 1.5k flying perpendicular to the tank.
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Proof it is too easy to shoot a plane with a tank shell in AH
Proof? If you can see down the tank's barrel, you're doing it wrong.
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Ladies and Gentlemen, to begin, I am in the Army and I have served in armored units so I can say I speak with a shred of authority on this matter. I for one and tired of being shot by tanks whilst strafing the heck out of them in my new IL-2 of doom with those wicked 37mm guns. Imagine if you will the variables involved and the accuracy required to fire a 7.5 cm round around a kilometer and striking a target travelling 250 kts and changing both altitude and distance (vertically and laterally) at a tremendous rate. In a tank if you are not spot on with range you cannot hit another stationary tank, yet fire near an airplane and it explodes. All of this is somehow possible without the aid of computers, barometric pressure measuring devices, thermomters and so on. If you would please record yourself, if you indulge in the tank strafing, and see what I mean. I do admire the few who can pull it off, but is seems this is now the standard. I get popped consistently at 1k. Please do not read into this as a gripe, merely a fishing trip to see if there are others who have noticed this.
It seem HE rounds will blow up if they pass near the plane, that's just what i've seemed to notice
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It seem HE rounds will blow up if they pass near the plane, that's just what I've seemed to notice
No, you have to hit the plane, but remember, what you see and what the other player is seeing aren't exactly the same, so if I shoot at you and see a hit, you might see a miss but still take the hit anyways.
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i enjoy plane killin in a panzer. i just let them get a bit closer and then drill them at D300-D500. just when they think then have me, POP goes the weasel. its great fun and it always makes em crazy hehehe. have a great day!!
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Gamey but funny.
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What I'm not understanding, is how is it really that gamey? I mean, they aren't cheating, they aren't using some sophisticated piece of military hardware. They are just getting a plane in their sights, using the proper lead, and pulling the trigger. What are they doing that anyone could not do with enough practice? I've heard a bunch of people say "how is it possible without computer tracking, it's unrealistic" etc. Well, no one is using any aiming computers are they? It sucks when it happens to you, but nothing fishy is going on. Take one big gun, find one plane, put plane in sights, use correct lead, pull trigger, boom.
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Gamey as in ... how many times can you find historically that this happened.
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How many times did F4U-4s shoot down P-47s?
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Not even in the same league...... those are both allied aircraft. Tanks didn't shoot planes with main gun because it was darn near impossible.
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oh, lordy i loves to face shoot IL2's and 110's. yes indeed.
caught one on the wing once, but it was a lucky pot-shot. but if you're coming at my tank low and slow, expect an AP round in the face. :D
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Proof? If you can see down the tank's barrel, you're doing it wrong.
What he said, basically.
If you fly straight at me, within the deflection limits of my main gun, looking down the barrel of it............
I will pop you each and every time, no question.
Don't like it? Change your approach angle. Get beyond the elevation angle of my tank. Do not fly at me, almost horizontally, from 5 K out, telegraphing your intention.
I intentionally look for guys doing exactly that, just so I can pop them with my main gun. :devil
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Shuffler, if it is indeed impossible, how are they doing it? They aren't cheating... And how would you propose to make it more in line with real life?
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It being darn near impossible in RL was what I meant by gamey. Only in a game are you going to see that happen with such regularity.
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But in what possible way could you fix it? They aren't doing anything that is fakey or gamey in my opinion, just putting proper lead on a fast moving target. And when they shoot a slow moving IL-2 coming straight at down their gun, I can especially see how a tank can kill a plane. The other more difficult shots are just the result of practice.
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Understanding how a crew in a ww2 tank work is the key.
It just takes too long time for a commander and gunner to react to something that is not flying into your barrel.
1rst you have to stop if you moving.
Then Commander will have to spot and align the turret .
Gunner has to find target, and compute where the target will be half a second to a second from trigger is pressed and adjust accordingly both elevation and sideways.
Modern tanks will have a much easier task since you have button where commander can do autoaligning of his periscope to gunners sight.
Also modern computers let you do the advanced computing by simply pressing on a button - following the target and press trigger.
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No idea how to fix it. I'm just pointing out it's gamey. I still laugh when I see it done.
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I don't think there is anyway to change without changing the whole mechanics of tanking.
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Yeah, it sucks. I've given and I have received. It IS gaming the game. The amount that it happens in AH2 is no where near the amount that it actually happened in real life... and I have my doubts that it ever did, really.
A tank shooting down an aircraft is in the same category as taking %25 fuel and DT in fighters or %25 fuel in bombers, Lanc-Stuk'in at 500ft, performing evasive aerobatics in a fully loaded B24, etc, or any other gross abuse of the aircraft or gv's in the sim-game that is only allowed because of improper modeling.
I would think there would be a way for HTC to code out the ability for tanks to shoot down aircraft while it is airborne and still allow a tank to destroy an aircraft while it is on the ground.
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Not even in the same league...... those are both allied aircraft. Tanks didn't shoot planes with main gun because it was darn near impossible.
And anti-tank aircraft didn't come in at a low angle either. If you do, don't cry when you die.
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It being darn near impossible in RL was what I meant by gamey. Only in a game are you going to see that happen with such regularity.
A lot of stuff we do here is darn near impossible in real life. In real life, a .50 BMG has a 15.5 foot drop at 800 yards. The 30mm cannon used in most of the German aircraft have approximately a 50 foot drop at that distance. In real life, to hit ANY target at that range during WWII would be an incredible shot. In here, it happens all the time.
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Understanding how a crew in a ww2 tank work is the key.
It just takes too long time for a commander and gunner to react to something that is not flying into your barrel.
1rst you have to stop if you moving.
Then Commander will have to spot and align the turret .
Gunner has to find target, and compute where the target will be half a second to a second from trigger is pressed and adjust accordingly both elevation and sideways.
No different than maning the gunners in a bomber, dropping supps from an M3, flying two drones, driving a jeep inside a tank, coasting at 1,000mph down hill. Some things have to be a little gamey or they would be nothing at all.
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Gamey as in ... how many times can you find historically that this happened.
How many times one fighter plane shot down other fighter from ~1000 yards?
How many times one tanks hits other tank from 3k+?
How many heavy/medium tanks was destroyed by IL-2 guns (23 or 37mm)
How many CVs was sunk by level bombers?
... and so on.
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"... and so on."
Happened twice at least, as far as I can recall.
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I haven't read every post, so excuse me if someone has already mentioned this. I'm guessing that the same rules (considering network lag) that govern aircraft collisions also apply to aircraft and main gun rounds. This would explain why the recordings of tank and aircraft don't both necessarily show an impact. In this case the code may have a tolerance, a "range of interaction", which effectively treats near misses as impacts. Then again, maybe some of you guys can really shoot. :aok
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I haven't read every post, so excuse me if someone has already mentioned this. I'm guessing that the same rules (considering network lag) that govern aircraft collisions also apply to aircraft and main gun rounds. This would explain why the recordings of tank and aircraft don't both necessarily show an impact. In this case the code may have a tolerance, a "range of interaction", which effectively treats near misses as impacts. Then again, maybe some of you guys can really shoot. :aok
If I'm the shooter and I see my round hit you on my screen, you die, even if it looks like a miss on your screen. If I'm the shooter and I see my round miss you on my screen, you don't die, even if it looks like a hit on your screen. That's basically how it works.
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Not even in the same league...... those are both allied aircraft. Tanks didn't shoot planes with main gun because it was darn near impossible.
How many real life aces had 20,000+ kills?
Familiarity. As you use something more often, you are better ABLE to use it. When you have torched off 90-100k rounds you are more accurate than your "real life" counter parts are going to be. Combined with the fact that getting "killed" in real life doesn't let you re-up and use that experienced gained, just like in real life getting your plane shot out from under you generally kept you from learning your enemy's tactics for later use...
In short, its a game. GVs shooting down planes periodically is no different that the huge number of kills and really high hit percentages of planes in the same situations.
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And anti-tank aircraft didn't come in at a low angle either. If you do, don't cry when you die.
That was because they were trying to hit the softer top armor, not in order to avoid the main gun.
Lets assume an IL2 flying at 200 mph and a tank is aiming its main gun at it. lets take IL2's length as the typical dimension for the target which is ~13m and the shooting distance as ~1000m. In terms of angular size, this is a fairly big target for a tank gun - at least a modern one, I don't know about WWII.
Lets check the time scales involved. If the IL2 is flying at 200 mph = 300 km/s (slow even for IL2) it crosses its own dimension in ~0.15 sec. Typical human reaction time (according to http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime/stats.php) is 0.215 sec with a standard deviation of about 0.035 (reading from the plot). Therefore, roughly 10% of the population may have good enough reflexes to consistently time the shot right - given they have a perfect aim in space and a timing indication of when to pull the trigger.
Now, lets check the timing accuracy - There is no timing aid (lead indicator), at least not in a tank. The shell is subsonic (or is it?), so we'll assume 300 m/s ~Mach0.9. At 1000m this means ~3 seconds flight time to hit a target that will stay in the kill zone for 0.15 sec. You need a relative timing estimation of 0.05 accuracy. I don't have any data for that, but it would be interesting how accurate can a person estimate 3 seconds.
Anyway, what I get from this is that it is "humanly possible" to make the shot and probably the limiting factor is by FAR the short time you have to actually set up the shot, since this is not a controlled experiment where you know EXACTLY where the plane will fly and wait for him with the gun. It would still be a low probability shot even if you are ready for it, but not like winning the lottory.
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Wasn't the main gun of the tiger an anti-aircraft gun that was modified for that tank?
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Lets assume an IL2 flying at 200 mph and a tank is aiming its main gun at it. lets take IL2's length as the typical dimension for the target which is ~13m and the shooting distance as ~1000m. ...
I assure you that virtually all planes vaporized by tank main guns (in AH, of course) flew directly towards tank. So no lead and plenty of time to aim. Anything else is just damn lucky shot.
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Bozon's post above seems to be right mathematically, but even that does not take into account the co-ordination between tank crews, and the time delays involved with that. Shooting a plane moving 250 laterally and vertically with a gun that was designed to shoot tanks on flat ground, is gamey a best.
And no, the object of the discussion is not necessarily that it is possible with the plane flying directly at the gun. Even that shot in real life would be hard to make because by the time the commander had got the gunner lined up on target (assuming the tank was actually pointed in at least the general direction the plane was coming), the plane would probably have already flown over the tank. The true gamey aspect is the shot that are 2.5k+ out, with movement through several different planes.
The factors that make these types of shot near impossible (or more of an impossibility) in real life are not accounted for in Ah2. In short, the time delay in co-ordination of the crew, wind (which probably has a quite noticeable effect on tank rounds, due to size and ballistics), and probably even barometric pressure and heat of the gun itself (I know both of these factors are taking in quite heavily when aiming large AA guns).
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Now, lets check the timing accuracy - There is no timing aid (lead indicator), at least not in a tank. The shell is subsonic (or is it?), so we'll assume 300 m/s ~Mach0.9. At 1000m this means ~3 seconds flight time to hit a target that will stay in the kill zone for 0.15 sec. You need a relative timing estimation of 0.05 accuracy. I don't have any data for that, but it would be interesting how accurate can a person estimate 3 seconds.
the first T34 stats I find= the 76mm did 680m/s and the 85mm 792m/s
most definitely supersonic
which reminds me of another thing I've brought up before.. How is it we can hear the tank gun muzzle blast BEFORE the projectile impacts?
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the first T34 stats I find= the 76mm did 680m/s and the 85mm 792m/s
most definitely supersonic
which reminds me of another thing I've brought up before.. How is it we can hear the tank gun muzzle blast BEFORE the projectile impacts?
Because you are closer to the gun than the impact point?
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No there's no way sound should hit first. Its just a factor which wasn't implemented in the game. If a tank round was moving 300 m/s (984 f/s) the penetration would be awful, and hitting moving targets would be nearly impossible.
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Bozon's post above seems to be right mathematically, but even that does not take into account the co-ordination between tank crews, and the time delays involved with that. Shooting a plane moving 250 laterally and vertically with a gun that was designed to shoot tanks on flat ground, is gamey a best.
And no, the object of the discussion is not necessarily that it is possible with the plane flying directly at the gun. Even that shot in real life would be hard to make because by the time the commander had got the gunner lined up on target (assuming the tank was actually pointed in at least the general direction the plane was coming), the plane would probably have already flown over the tank. The true gamey aspect is the shot that are 2.5k+ out, with movement through several different planes.
The factors that make these types of shot near impossible (or more of an impossibility) in real life are not accounted for in Ah2. In short, the time delay in co-ordination of the crew, wind (which probably has a quite noticeable effect on tank rounds, due to size and ballistics), and probably even barometric pressure and heat of the gun itself (I know both of these factors are taking in quite heavily when aiming large AA guns).
At the same time, those arguing against it are not taking into account most of the reasons it can happen too. Mainly:
1) Sheer number of opportunities (you can't compare the amount of combat time we get to "real life")
2) Ability to "learn" from your previous mistakes (you don't die)
3) Unrealistic attack angles from the aircraft (slow level attacks lining up from a distance? lol)
I can tell you the planes I have shot down have been under three circumstances:
1) (Least Common) Plane attacks the rear of my tank, over flies and goes straight away from me. This puts them right in my gun sites but flying away. I rarely hit this one.
2) (Second most common) Plane does attack number one, then does a 180 and comes straight back. Since I was already trying to line up for the shot in part number one, this is an easy hit. I just wait until about 600 yds then fire with the aim bar at ~500. Something a real pilot would have never done.
3) Plane has upped and is moving towards me from the airfield. I've been watching it for 10k+ yards, waiting for it to come in to attack. Easy shot, and something a real pilot would have never done because of the danger. :huh
I have shot down probably 20 planes, but have died 100s of times to them. I would have never figured out how to make those attacks if this were "real life". Plus the pilots I hit are always doing something to make my life easier. I'm not a very good shot (1.78% hit rate in planes, hehe) yet I have a 6%+ hit rate with tanks, even though I return to the field without ammo for my machine guns almost every time simply because the planes are LETTING me dump ammo into them. I've lost count of how many planes that have left smoking because they approach nice and slow and I fill their engine with .30 cal. I rarely drop one before I die, but that tells you exactly how most of my adversaries are flying.
You don't want to get hit by a tank? Increase your attack angles, be aware of where the enemy's field of fire are and don't let me follow your movements for 1+ minutes to line up for the shot. If you don't follow those rules in real life you die too :aok
And come play in a GV. Try to kill a plane yourself and see how far you get if they do things right.
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And anti-tank aircraft didn't come in at a low angle either. If you do, don't cry when you die.
Yes they did...
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Well, it has been a couple of weeks, and shazaam the post continues. All I really want to know is the size if the tank round as it travels though space. Is it always a scaled 7.5 cm? As far as the tank guys go.... you guys have to admit it is just part of the game, we use the TOW as an ground to helicopter weapon, no the 25mm bushmaster on the brads and I am sure there is a good reason for it. The M1 is very accurate, but remember the barrel is not rifled either. Gee I wonder if the effect of rifling is taken into account in the game...lol. Cheers all and thanks for posting, again, not a whine, an observation.
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the first T34 stats I find= the 76mm did 680m/s and the 85mm 792m/s
most definitely supersonic
which reminds me of another thing I've brought up before.. How is it we can hear the tank gun muzzle blast BEFORE the projectile impacts?
I believe it was in Ross Carter's "Those Devils in Baggy Pants" where the author complained that one of the main reason the US soldiers despised German 88s was that the explosion happened before they could hear the round coming in, giving them no time to hit the dirt.
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if its at long range you can dodge the round most of my kills i fire when they are 800 ft away
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Because you are closer to the gun than the impact point?
no, i mean incoming.. say a tank sittin 1500 yds away.. you'll hear his gun fire, THEN the round hits you :huh
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Turn the sound down for outside gunfire :)
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No, I am saying that hitting planes with somewhat consistency at 3k is not accurate. Also look at my previous post in which someone hit a plane at 1.5k flying perpendicular to the tank.
Done it at 3K with an Osti a few times. I don't see how a tank would be any different, they just fire slower. Round speed between the two is probably comparable. Round drop at 3k probably favors the tank. Just a semi educated guess on my part.