Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: grizz441 on November 26, 2008, 04:08:12 AM
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It seems to me it wouldn't be that difficult to program in a detection system where if Player A kills Player B a certain % of his total kills AND Player B gets killed by Player A a certain % of his total deaths, Player A should be flagged and his scorecard should read "Flagged for Cheating" for the month.
Example: Player A has killed Player B for 20% of his total kills (Lets say, 50 of 250)
Player B has been killed by Player A 75% of his total deaths (Lets say, 50 of 67)
This would be a clear and cut Shade killing scenario and Player A would be flagged.
The exact percentages of 'suspicious behavior' would be determined by HTC.
Not a perfect solution that would catch everybody, but it would catch the blatant abusers and deter others from this sort of behavior. In order to 'game' this score security, you'd have to know the percentages that set off the alarm bells and you'd also have to do a bunch of number crunching to make sure you don't get caught. It would make it very annoying and difficult to successfully shade kill for any sort of significant gain.
<edit> This would be used in the LW Arena's. It wouldn't work in EW or MW because the numbers are so low.
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While high % of kills do indeed often indicate something is wrong, it's not always the case that it actually is.
In low populated arenas like EW it's actually indeed possible for two players having large share of their kills on each other without anything being wrong. But suddenly they are labeled "cheat" or "gamer" or such. (I often fly at non-primetime, always the same 3-5 players on EW at that time)
The program would lack any kind of human discretion.
Big "no" from me
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While high % of kills do indeed often indicate something is wrong, it's not always the case that it actually is.
In low populated arenas like EW it's actually indeed possible for two players having large share of their kills on each other without anything being wrong. But suddenly they are labeled "cheat" or "gamer" or such. (I often fly at non-primetime, always the same 3-5 players on EW at that time)
The program would lack any kind of human discretion.
Big "no" from me
When the percentages are high enough, you can conclude with 99.99999% Certainty that cheating is going down. But what about the borderline scenarios you speak of?
You could program levels of degree of suspicion.
Ex.
Level 1: Blatant abuse (Automatic cheating flag)
Level 2: Somewhat suspicious (Administrative review)
It's intended for the Late War arenas where everyone flies Lusche, not EW.
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When imply it? after 1 week, after 2 weeks? Or after 1 hour of play, after 10 hours of play?
Because when you log in the first time after reset, your first kill will always be 100% on the same guy.
What if :
example that really happened :
a player keeps spawning PT boats to kill a CV, and an another guy keeps killing him with the ships 5 inchers like 13 times in a row (1 sortie)
Percentage on that player will rise enormously, you will be flagged, everybody will think you're a cheat,...
All this is dependable on how many kills you got before, and at what point...
Other example :
newbee 2 weekers comes in, plays for 10 hours, gets shot like 25 times, manage to get his first kill, 100% kills on 1 player, flagged...
There might be solutions for the above mentioned examples, but I just don't think it as easy to imply as you suggest
:salute
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Wouldn't just beating a confession out of the accused be easier and more enjoyable? :devil
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I think that after every tour has ended now the guys with thier name high up on the ranks will be looked hard at by those on the bbs with little else to do anyway so that is prolly a good enogh detection system ;)
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i think it's much more fun reading the witchhunts in here. it seems that we're always talkin about a way to police ourselves, and with the new score pages, htc has given us the ability to easily do so. :D
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Just a question, but are shade accounts not allowed? If I were HTC, I would probably encourage it, purely from a subscriber $$ position.
And score? I mean does it really matter? What does a high score get you anyway...kudos...bragging rights...the ability to control a CV?
I kindof agree to the post above, where it is more fun to read about it here.
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A simple question:
Who cares? If someone wants to shoot down a shade account 100 times a day, let them. They are only "cheating" themselves of any dignity they might have had. It's a cartoon airplane game, and worrying about what some other person does with their $15 or $30 is silly.
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A simple question:
Who cares? If someone wants to shoot down a shade account 100 times a day, let them. They are only "cheating" themselves of any dignity they might have had. It's a cartoon airplane game, and worrying about what some other person does with their $15 or $30 is silly.
I agree Bodhi. I play this game for the fun of it. I only pay $15 a month, If other people want to pay $30, let them...
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A simple question:
Who cares? If someone wants to shoot down a shade account 100 times a day, let them. They are only "cheating" themselves of any dignity they might have had. It's a cartoon airplane game, and worrying about what some other person does with their $15 or $30 is silly.
Well, for what it's worth, (not going deeper into this though), but if you allow that, what's the difference with allowing "real" cheats like aimbots and other stuff?
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A simple question:
Who cares?
Many playes do (for various reasons), and luckily HTC does too.
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A simple question:
Who cares?
Would you ask the same question if this were some non-internet game?
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you guys have way too much time to think! :D
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Well my two cents is this cheating is cheating it takes away from everybody even the people that don't care.
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A simple question:
Who cares? If someone wants to shoot down a shade account 100 times a day, let them. They are only "cheating" themselves of any dignity they might have had. It's a cartoon airplane game, and worrying about what some other person does with their $15 or $30 is silly.
WHELP,
there seems to be an abundence of people here that care about the score that noone cares about. regardless, though, it is very fun to read. i especially like when lusche does it, as he covers all the bases, and there is no getting away from it then. :D
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When imply it? after 1 week, after 2 weeks? Or after 1 hour of play, after 10 hours of play?
Because when you log in the first time after reset, your first kill will always be 100% on the same guy.
What if :
example that really happened :
a player keeps spawning PT boats to kill a CV, and an another guy keeps killing him with the ships 5 inchers like 13 times in a row (1 sortie)
Percentage on that player will rise enormously, you will be flagged, everybody will think you're a cheat,...
All this is dependable on how many kills you got before, and at what point...
Other example :
newbee 2 weekers comes in, plays for 10 hours, gets shot like 25 times, manage to get his first kill, 100% kills on 1 player, flagged...
There might be solutions for the above mentioned examples, but I just don't think it as easy to imply as you suggest
:salute
A few things.
1. There would have to be some 'error catching' parameters to not flag people who haven't flown a lot and obviously aren't cheating
2. You'd probably scan the database two weeks into the campaign, then each following week. (Or some schedule like that)
3. I think a system to flag potential cheaters is a good idea but, in retrospect, automatically black marking their name without human deference isn't smart. I just don't know how much of this goes on and think it would be silly if Skuzzy had to spend all day reviewing clear and cut cases of cheating that the system could have just arranged for him.
I personally think it's more fun for the community to police itself but Skuzzy said the witch hunts have to stop otherwise we'll lose the new scoring pages.
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With the new stats pages that Skuzzy announced it is easy to see who is killing shade accounts. I think that the potential of exposure by the community and the inevitable ignominy of being revealed as a "rank/perk miner" will go a long way toward eliminating this form of (at best) bad behavior. A substantiated allegation by the community followed by an e-mail to support@hitechcreations is IMO the way to go
My 2 cents: Let the community police itself
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If two accounts are killing each other from the same IP address that's pretty easy to spot. So then the question is to what degree and how's that impacting the rest of the players.
Then you've got the shades/helpers from a different IP address. That's harder and would need some system in place such as you describe to flag the account.
Regardless, none of that should be automatic. Each should be reviewed by HTC and dealt with as they deem appropriate (loss of kills, points, perks, etc. would probably suffice).
Other than that, the perpetrators should be discovered and judged by the community after a traditially entertaining witch hunt.
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It is a waste of time to program anything to worry about scorepadding. I'd rather they work on game development.
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It's easy to self police this. No need for a program and no need to waste devs time writing it.
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Big waste of time and resources. With the new score pages, the community will police itself.
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*Let's just flag pacerr now*
CRAP! I said that outloud :O
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*Let's just flag pacerr now*
CRAP! I said that outloud :O
I actually got killed by pacerr a few days ago. How embarrasing.
He was flying a Tempest in the middle of a hoard.
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He was flying a Tempest in the middle of a hoard.
In the middle? Really? Are you sure he wasn't 8k above the hoard?
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In the middle? Really? Are you sure he wasn't 8k above the hoard?
No, that would have been me...
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No, that would have been me...
With Bruv above you, right? :D
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I'm usually doing my best to ensure that nobody is above me :D
(my alt record during a regular combat sortie -not testing or fooling around- is 42k ;) )
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oh noes this is gunna kill muh score!
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Big waste of time and resources. With the new score pages, the community will police itself.
Didn't Scuzzy say we can't do witchhunts anymore? I also doubt he wants to get hordes of shade killing email.
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It's easy to self police this. No need for a program and no need to waste devs time writing it.
Yup. Plus flushing the shade killer out is half the fun.
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Didn't Scuzzy say we can't do witchhunts anymore?
He didn't exactly say that. He said they were getting out of hand... not that they weren't gonna be tolerated at all.
:t
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It's easy to self police this. No need for a program and no need to waste devs time writing it.
I agree with you Steve...
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We can still find the witches, but we aren't allowed to harass/humiliate/headhunt them until they quit, even though that's a much better alternative in my opinion. However, it's HTC's company, and if they don't mind honoring the lowest of players on their website, well, that's their business.
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I think most people care about there score in one way or the other,I care about my fighter score only, for thats all i fly under,now that these "shade killers" have been exposed, I think we will be able to see a more true score/ranking.
Someone asked if anyone would care if this wasnt on online game, I say yes, would you care if someone was cheating while you where playing Monoply? chess? Poker? hell ya, I think most people dont like cheaters and this is a cheat for sure!!
just my $.02
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Didn't Scuzzy say we can't do witchhunts anymore? I also doubt he wants to get hordes of shade killing email.
I also believe he said that such matters should be brought to the attention of HTC. So rather then the rush to summary execution on the BBS, I believe Skuzzy wants you to let him know so he can research it and take the appropriate action.
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A simple question:
Who cares? If someone wants to shoot down a shade account 100 times a day, let them. They are only "cheating" themselves of any dignity they might have had. It's a cartoon airplane game, and worrying about what some other person does with their $15 or $30 is silly.
This isn't about score/rank or even perk farming and all to do with maintaining some sort of fair play standards within the community. A community that is tolerant of these sort of actions will also become tolerant of far more unfair gaming practices like cheating and the community will become a festering boil.
ack-ack
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I think the community can police itself if it is allowed to. Skuzzy got fed up with it in another thread and declared Musashi not a shade of u2007 :huh :huh :huh :huh :huh Can anyone explain how he came to that conclusion?
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I think the community can police itself if it is allowed to. Skuzzy got fed up with it in another thread and declared Musashi not a shade of u2007 :huh :huh :huh :huh :huh Can anyone explain how he came to that conclusion?
Only Skuzzy himself can, and it's highly unlike he actually will, at least in public ;)
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Only Skuzzy himself can, and it's highly unlike he actually will, at least in public ;)
He must not have looked at the stats or something, it might be the most blatant case to date up there with Amsoil21's.
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If Skuzzy says it's not a shades account, he's probably right. However, no one ruled out cooperative vulching, and the stats just don't make any sense otherwise. That's where I would place my bet.
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All the community needs is a TALL tree and a SHORT piece of rope........ :devil
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If Skuzzy says it's not a shades account, he's probably right. However, no one ruled out cooperative vulching, and the stats just don't make any sense otherwise. That's where I would place my bet.
Isn't that the exact same thing essentially? In principle at least...
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well if two different people, in different places, are paying $15 a month, each, then it might be hard too justify terminating there accounts when they are not really taking up much space, and the only thing they are skewing is the scoreboard, especially since the people in here will chastise them for it soon enough! and i don't think they said we can't point them out, probably more along the lines of keeping it as civil as possible, when doing so!
just my two cents worth
WWhiskey out.
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Isn't that the exact same thing essentially? In principle at least...
I guess the important question is was this u2007 person killing a shade or not? Apparently not. Then step two in the checklist is, did his repeated killing of this person unfairly place him into rank contention? Or maybe he was simply perk farming, which while also a dweebtastic activity, not quite the cheap cheating for rank like Amsoil21.
Perhaps HTC doesn't find the perk farming by two paying customers to be quite as foul as the rank cheating.
Just a thought, not saying that it is (or should be) the case, just a possibility.
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I guess the important question is was this u2007 person killing a shade or not? Apparently not. Then step two in the checklist is, did his repeated killing of this person unfairly place him into rank contention? Or maybe he was simply perk farming, which while also a dweebtastic activity, not quite the cheap cheating for rank like Amsoil21.
Perhaps HTC doesn't find the perk farming by two paying customers to be quite as foul as the rank cheating.
Just a thought, not saying that it is (or should be) the case, just a possibility.
ill be the first to say this in this thread. if i was hurting for perks, and felt like being a low life, i would intentionally vulch a shade just to gain some free perks. Im not saying ill do it all day, but im saying for just one (maybe 2) sorties. anywho, :salute
P.S. btw, if HTC had a thing against perk farming, im sure there would be a lot of people getting a talk to, or even booted from game.
my .02
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ill be the first to say this in this thread. if i was hurting for perks, and felt like being a low life, i would intentionally vulch a shade just to gain some free perks.
Of course finding a CV fight and upping an A6M2 is a whole lot more fun without the hit to whatever (if any) reputation you have established. Personally, the only perked plane I really ever fly is a 262. I fly them so rarely that I have yet to find myself too perk poor to pay for one.
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ill be the first to say this in this thread. if i was hurting for perks, and felt like being a low life, i would intentionally vulch a shade just to gain some free perks. Im not saying ill do it all day, but im saying for just one (maybe 2) sorties. anywho, :salute
P.S. btw, if HTC had a thing against perk farming, im sure there would be a lot of people getting a talk to, or even booted from game.
my .02
I'll be the first to say that this is a clear indication that you are a person of low character. What's your in game name? I want to be sure to give you no aid when I'm on your side and kill you every chance I get when I'm not.
Ahh I see your name in your sig, noted.
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ill be the first to say this in this thread. if i was hurting for perks, and felt like being a low life, i would intentionally vulch a shade just to gain some free perks. Im not saying ill do it all day, but im saying for just one (maybe 2) sorties. anywho, :salute
P.S. btw, if HTC had a thing against perk farming, im sure there would be a lot of people getting a talk to, or even booted from game.
my .02
Pathetic. Just shows that you lack and unwilling to learn the necessary skills in order to gain perks the normal way. It's players like you that have brought down the game play to the point where it's at, WTG big guy!
ack-ack
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His in game name is Masonz. He missed me tonight, heh.
:t
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Isn't that the exact same thing essentially? In principle at least...
A shades account is a disguise- a second (or additional, or new) account that is not known to other players, and is not associated with you. Vulching your buddy in the EW 25 times isn't abusing a shades account, it's just abusing the scoring systems. I know at least a dozen players who either have, or have had, multiple accounts. There's been no abuse of those accounts, that I'm aware of- in these cases, it was simply a way to enjoy the game anonymously- to just fly without worrying about their squads, scores, dedicated planes, anklehumpers, whatever.
A shades and exploiting scoring are very different, and not necessarily related, things.
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P.S. btw, if HTC had a thing against perk farming, im sure there would be a lot of people getting a talk to, or even booted from game.
HTC has a thing against perk farming and players have been stripped of ALL scores and perks for such behaviour.
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I'll be the first to say that this is a clear indication that you are a person of low character. What's your in game name? I want to be sure to give you no aid when I'm on your side and kill you every chance I get when I'm not.
Ahh I see your name in your sig, noted.
Pathetic. Just shows that you lack and unwilling to learn the necessary skills in order to gain perks the normal way. It's players like you that have brought down the game play to the point where it's at, WTG big guy!
ack-ack
Steve and ackack, i had just been stating. ask any squad member of a squad ive been in, im not that low. I could very easily get that low, but in reality im far from it. you show me respect, i show you respect. simple enough. after what Lusche said:
HTC has a thing against perk farming and players have been stripped of ALL scores and perks for such behaviour.
i wouldnt, but i have no reason to perk farm on purpose by vulching a shade account. sure, i lose my share of 262's like many others, but im not so low i need to vulch a shade account. you can look at my stats and tell me how i bring the game down ackack, but when you find nothing to prove it, ill just sit here and laugh. Honestly, id really like to meet some of the keyboard tough guys out there 1-1 and just see how snobby they are.
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I think the community can police itself if it is allowed to. Skuzzy got fed up with it in another thread and declared Musashi not a shade of u2007 :huh :huh :huh :huh :huh Can anyone explain how he came to that conclusion?
It is kinda sad that with all the killing of Musashi, he still has a less than 1:1 kill ratio.
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Steve and ackack, you show me respect, i show you respect. simple enough.
You've admitted you are capable of slimy behavior... I don't see anything to respect. *shrug*
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A shades account is a disguise- a second (or additional, or new) account that is not known to other players, and is not associated with you. Vulching your buddy in the EW 25 times isn't abusing a shades account, it's just abusing the scoring systems. I know at least a dozen players who either have, or have had, multiple accounts. There's been no abuse of those accounts, that I'm aware of- in these cases, it was simply a way to enjoy the game anonymously- to just fly without worrying about their squads, scores, dedicated planes, anklehumpers, whatever.
A shades and exploiting scoring are very different, and not necessarily related, things.
Wow! I agree with Hub. And I thought that would never happen :lol
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You've admitted you are capable of slimy behavior... I don't see anything to respect. *shrug*
with this you are saying that you in no way can show slimy behaviour? no matter how hard you try?
BTW everyone...HAPPY THANKSGIVING!!
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ill be the first to say this in this thread. if i was hurting for perks, and felt like being a low life, i would intentionally vulch a shade just to gain some free perks. Im not saying ill do it all day, but im saying for just one (maybe 2) sorties. anywho, :salute
P.S. btw, if HTC had a thing against perk farming, im sure there would be a lot of people getting a talk to, or even booted from game.
my .02
Minimizing the fact that you simply choose to do such a thing does not make it right. Because this is played over the internet (with/against people you do not see face to face) does not make your unethical tactic right.
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I think the community can police itself if it is allowed to. Skuzzy got fed up with it in another thread and declared Musashi not a shade of u2007 :huh :huh :huh :huh :huh Can anyone explain how he came to that conclusion?
First off Skuzzy says it's not a shade. You can take that to mean he has information to say it's 2 different people. As for Skuzzy getting fed up that's not quite right. His objection was to my over assumptions in follow up posts beyond the Opening Post, in that locked thread. I clearly didn't have the proof to justify those assumptions. I extend my apologies to Skuzzy for my over zealous infractions.
I believe this new scoring page is a valuable tool not only for the individual but also for the ethics of the game. Once this new system is up and running on the home page and known by all, we'll see less and less shenanigans. When one suspects skulduggery the information is at hand in black and white and further more, known to be so. Your assumptions will be dismissed or validated.
Anything beyond score and perk farming such as spying on mission, captured CV's, rerouting CV's, one is still left with little more than speculation. No matter how justified your assessment of charactor/s are. No matter what the other circumstantial evidence is. No matter the hunch or gut feeling.... it's speculation. Without proof it's speculations. Skuzzy is basically saying speculation, left to run riot
or not justified, is another form of degradation of ethics ......which it is.
As for these 2 charactors mentioned above <tong in cheek> I can only speculate :rofl
Don't let that become a new catch phrase either.
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First off Skuzzy says it's not a shade. You can take that to mean he has information to say it's 2 different people. As for Skuzzy getting fed up that's not quite right. His objection was to my over assumptions in follow up posts beyond the Opening Post, in that locked thread. I clearly didn't have the proof to justify those assumptions. I extend my apologies to Skuzzy for my over zealous infractions.
I believe this new scoring page is a valuable tool not only for the individual but also for the ethics of the game. Once this new system is up and running on the home page and known by all, we'll see less and less shenanigans. When one suspects skulduggery the information is at hand in black and white and further more, known to be so. Your assumptions will be dismissed or validated.
Anything beyond score and perk farming such as spying on mission, captured CV's, rerouting CV's, one is still left with little more than speculation. No matter how justified your assessment of charactor/s are. No matter what the other circumstantial evidence is. No matter the hunch or gut feeling.... it's speculation. Without proof it's speculations. Skuzzy is basically saying speculation, left to run riot
or not justified, is another form of degradation of ethics ......which it is.
As for these 2 charactors mentioned above <tong in cheek> I can only speculate :rofl
Don't let that become a new catch phrase either.
I guess there are two types of cheating. 1. Shade killing where the same person has 2 accounts and vulches himself for points/rank.
2. "Cooperative Vulching" Where one player lets the other kill him repeatedly(on multiple occasions) for whatever reason.
While hubs and LYNX have shown the differences between these two to me nicely and I appreciate it...they are both cheating all the same in my book. You could say Amsoil21 wasn't shade vulching and maybe he was just making his little brother take off again and again for him...same thing as doing it himself.
As far as the community speculating very suspicious stats, Imo everyone who has gotten ridiculed publicly for shade killing has CLEARLY been up to some debaucheries. I haven't seen any irresponsible behavior in any of the witch hunts for shade killers. If Skuzzy says u2007 and Musashi are different players, so be it...u2007 is still a twit for vulching him hundreds of times in the campaign and deserves all the public ridicule that he gets.