Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: yanksfan on December 05, 2008, 06:53:18 PM
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We have the pony B and D models, what were the others produced for combat, what were there differences , what were there purposes, and how long did each see action?
Don
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P51/F6A,A36,P51A,P51B/C,P51B,P51C,P51D(2types),P51K,and P51H.
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I know that the P51A was the Allison engined version. As far as I know it was fairly unpopular.
I think that the C was more or less similar to the B, but I may be wrong there.
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* P-51: 150 built
* P-51A: 310 built at Inglewood, California
* P-51B: 1,988 built at Inglewood
* P-51C: 1,750 built at Dallas, Texas
* P-51D: A total of 8,156 were built: 6,502 at Inglewood, 1,454 at Dallas and 200 by CAC at Fisherman's Bend, Australia
* XP-51F: Three built
* XP-51G: Two built
* P-51H: 555 built at Inglewood
* XP-51J: Two built
P-51D being assembled, Inglewood CA.
* P-51K: 1,500 built
* P-51L: None built - cancelled
* P-51M: One built at Dallas
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From what I'm reading, the only difference in the D and K is that the K was built in Dallas and the d was not. Also on the D models, 1 had a dorsel fin and 1 didn't.
A 20mm pony called the MarkIA was produced in late 41' but only 93 were ever made. So I guess I'll never see one of them in the game :frown:
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What are some of the major differences in the varents and what were their roles?
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you forgot the CA-17s made in australia and the cavalier mustangs which were P51Ds remanufactured in the 1960s with some significant changes to the airframes and the USAF purchased a few of them.
http://www.mustangsmustangs.net/p-51/p51variants/Cavalier.shtml
(http://www.mustangsmustangs.net/p-51/p51variants/images/Cavalier.jpg)
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What are some of the major differences in the varents and what were their roles?
Gun packages and horsepower are the big differences...and canopy. The A36 and P51A had a bird cage canopy and only 4 .50cals. One model even had 4.30cals and 4.50cals. These planes were limited to carrying only 2000lbs of ord, because of the underpowered engine I would guess.
All the models from the D on up could carry 3000lbs of ord, more fuel and had 6 .50 cals. The 51H had the biggest engine with a cruising speed of 487, and was lighter by 6 or 7 hundred lbs.
As far as their roles, ground attack,bomber escort and fighter.
P.S. the supercharger was introduced in the D models
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F6's were recce birds. 51B/C same bird, different production plant. D/K same bird, different production B at Inglewood CA, C at Dallas TX, aeroproducts propeller on the K, Hamilton Standard on the D. K suffered from some problems with vibration of the hollow aeroproducts prop. K canopy was a bit flatter which gave a less distored view then the rounded D model canopy from the Inglewood plant
In the end you are talking the early Allision birds including the A-36 which was a 'dive bomber' with dive brakes, and then the two Merlin versions B/C, D/K H model was postwar lightweight. It never saw combat. D/Ks were recalled for combat in Korea because of their loiter time and weapons load. They lost a lot to ground fire.
A/B and C models either had the birdcage Canopy or the Brit made Malcom hood. It was rare on an Allison bird, but there is photo evidence of it's use in 44-45 in the ETO
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Why does the 51 carry a "P" designation rather then an "F" and whats the difference?
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Gun packages and horsepower are the big differences...and canopy. The A36 and P51A had a bird cage canopy and only 4 .50cals. One model even had 4.30cals and 4.50cals. These planes were limited to carrying only 2000lbs of ord, because of the underpowered engine I would guess.
All the models from the D on up could carry 3000lbs of ord, more fuel and had 6 .50 cals. The 51H had the biggest engine with a cruising speed of 487, and was lighter by 6 or 7 hundred lbs.
As far as their roles, ground attack,bomber escort and fighter.
P.S. the supercharger was introduced in the D models
A36 and P51A/B/C could 1000 lbs and D on up 2000 lbs.
Also the A36 had six .50 cals and the P51A had only four .50 cals.
You also forgot the P51 which had four 20mm.
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you forgot the CA-17s made in australia and the cavalier mustangs which were P51Ds remanufactured in the 1960s with some significant changes to the airframes and the USAF purchased a few of them.
http://www.mustangsmustangs.net/p-51/p51variants/Cavalier.shtml
(http://www.mustangsmustangs.net/p-51/p51variants/images/Cavalier.jpg)
Nice find! :aok
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Why does the 51 carry a "P" designation rather then an "F" and whats the difference?
The "P" designation refers the aircraft type "pursuit". Sometime after WW2 the aircraft type was re designated "F" or "Fighter". Essentially it was a naming convention the mission of the two types was the same. At least that's my understanding of it.
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You also forgot the P51 which had four 20mm.
I *think* that is the P51C, or am I mistaken?
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I *think* that is the P51C, or am I mistaken?
No, it's the P51. No alphabetical notation.
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A 20mm pony called the MarkIA was produced in late 41' but only 93 were ever made. So I guess I'll never see one of them in the game :frown:
I'd love to have a pony like that, know of any pic's or a site with more info on it?
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Im glad you ask I think this will answer the question.
I've had this argument before. In support of the loadout on the 109f4
Some might say only structural improvements... hog wash!
For in game purposes
51B/C varients
NA-102, NA-103, NA-104-
P-51B-1NA
P-51B-7NA/P-51C-3NT
P-51B-10NA
p-51B-F-6C-NA or NT
"The -5 block added the alternate air source on each side of the cowling with filtered air and provisions for cold weather operations. A new Merlin -7 model was incorporated into the production line at the end of the P-51B-10NA block. Horsepower was boosted again, up another 50 to 1,450 at take-off. 91 model F-6C-NA or NT were created from -10 block of P-51Bs and the -10 block of P-51Cs. They had cameras mounted in the rear fuselage near the star and bars. "
51D/K varients
P-51D-5NA
P-51D-10NA
P-51D-15NA
P-51D-20NA
P-51D-25NA
P-51D-30NA
"The dorsal fin was added during the P-51D-10NA and later versions at the factory. Many other P-51s received this mod in the field. Look on this page, there is a wartime pic of a -5 model with the dorsal fin. Metal elevators were added in February 1945. The P-51D continued to have a fabric rudder. The -25 blocks and later were fitted with attachment points for various forms of rockets and rocket launchers.
One of the most important improvements to the P-51 was not structural. The K-14 gun sight was introduced in October of 1944 to the -20NA and later blocks. This new gun sight helped the pilots score more hits especially in higher deflection angle attacks. The K-14 utilized an analog computer. The pilot had to dial in the wingspan of the enemy aircraft and the range. Then all he had to do (sounds easy) was to put the enemy aircraft in the gun sight and pull the trigger. "
http://www.mustangsmustangs.com/p-51/p51variants/P-51D.shtml
We have 1 51D that does it all... where the 47 variety is at least done right. If the 51's can have improvements made from the field {Field mods} why cant the 109F-4 one of the most important 109's Fritz/Franz or Frederic?
Perk it! Fine by me! but it should be availible. hell the 109e carry's a bomb/dt.
Gimme Back my Bullets,
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What is the difference between the British Malcom hood and the bubble canopy?
I was told at one time (don't recall who told me) that the B model was slightly faster then the D due to the bubble on the D model.
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A36 and P51A/B/C could 1000 lbs and D on up 2000 lbs.
Also the A36 had six .50 cals and the P51A had only four .50 cals.
You also forgot the P51 which had four 20mm.
I mentioned the MarkIA (20mm pony) . The paper I have says the a,b,&c ponys carried 1000 of BOMBS. I was counting the extra weight for rockets although printout doesn't mention rockets in any of the 51s. :salute
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What is the difference between the British Malcom hood and the bubble canopy?
I was told at one time (don't recall who told me) that the B model was slightly faster then the D due to the bubble on the D model.
In AH the P-51B has a Malcom hood and the P-51D has a bubble canopy.
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P51/F6A,A36,P51A,P51B/C,P51B,P51C,P51D(2types),P51K,and P51H.
na73?
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Why does the 51 carry a "P" designation rather then an "F" and whats the difference?
P=pursuit
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I'd love to have a pony like that, know of any pic's or a site with more info on it?
Although the image here carries the wrong designation this is in fact a P51 (not a P51A).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:P-51A.jpg
If someone has edit rights there could you fix this?
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I know that the P51A was the Allison engined version. As far as I know it was fairly unpopular.
I think that the C was more or less similar to the B, but I may be wrong there.
The P51A was actually incredibly popular with the RAF. The A model was excellent at low alt (very fast on the deck) and was used as attack planes a lot.
The dorsal fin on the P-51D wasn't a field mod for the majority of the D models, many yes, but most came off the assembly line with them. They quickly learned of the instability caused by the bubble canopy and that fin was the fix for it.
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you forgot the CA-17s made in australia and the cavalier mustangs which were P51Ds remanufactured in the 1960s with some significant changes to the airframes and the USAF purchased a few of them.
http://www.mustangsmustangs.net/p-51/p51variants/Cavalier.shtml
(http://www.mustangsmustangs.net/p-51/p51variants/images/Cavalier.jpg)
That's dead sexy. Too bad there weren't more WWII fighters to get post-war updates like that. Plenty of potential with thousands of HP on tap..
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The P51A was actually incredibly popular with the RAF. The A model was excellent at low alt (very fast on the deck) and was used as attack planes a lot.
The dorsal fin on the P-51D wasn't a field mod for the majority of the D models, many yes, but most came off the assembly line with them. They quickly learned of the instability caused by the bubble canopy and that fin was the fix for it.
There was never a field mod for a dorsal fin. Some aircraft were produced without them but also never did have them.
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Was the D model the only one to have the dorsal fin? And if I understand above statement correctly, dorsal fin models were not used in combat?
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(http://www.mustangsmustangs.net/p-51/p51variants/images/P-51H.jpg)
here is an H with the fin fillet
(http://www.mustangsmustangs.net/p-51/p51variants/P-51K/P-51K-10NT_2.jpg)
this is a K in dallas with the fin fillet
(http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/images/Louiv22qc_ref.jpg)
here is a P51D without the fin fillet
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...It does have a fin... look again... ;)
EDIT:
Here is one without:
(http://www.airplane-pictures.net/images/uploaded-images/2008-4/13358.jpg)
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In the case of the D models, 1 had it and one didn't. So 2 types of D models. :salute
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I'd love to have a pony like that, know of any pic's or a site with more info on it?
(http://img68.imageshack.us/img68/5776/ac21gf3.jpg)
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Ok just so I have it right, the dorsal fin on the P-51D is the added area at the lower leading edge of the tail, correct? The smaller upright blade in the center between tail and canopy is an antenna, right?
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Ok just so I have it right, the dorsal fin on the P-51D is the added area at the lower leading edge of the tail, correct? The smaller upright blade in the center between tail and canopy is an antenna, right?
Well now you got me confused, and I'm now I'm doubting myself. From what I read I was almost certain it was the antennae looking thing between the bubble and the tail. I read that it helped stabilize the air before it reached the tail. However, I do see what you mean about the shape of the tail on some models.
Dorsal fin speaks something separate of the tail on the top of the aircraft to me, I suppose it could be interpreted many ways. I don't think they'd call an elongated leading edge of the vertical stabilizer a dorsal fin, would they...?
EDIT:
Ah ha! I was wrong, here's a little exerpt:
"The cut-down back for the new bubble canopy lead to a loss of surface area. This caused the P-51D to have directional problems (especially with full fuel in the fuselage tank creating an aft CG) for all but the most proficient pilots. The solution was to add a fillet (often called the "dorsal fin") to the vertical stabilizer that extended down and towards the front. The fillet was also added to other P-51 models already in the field."
(Source: http://www.mustangsmustangs.com/p-51/p51variants/P-51D.shtml)
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To make things confusing the RAF didn't call it a P51. The Alison engined version was a Mustang mkI, the P51D was a Mustang mkIV and a mk IVa was a P51K. lol
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No Dorsal Fin Fillet:
(http://www.boeing.com/companyoffices/aboutus/wonder_of_flight/images/p51mustang_500.jpg)
Dorsal Fin Fillet:
(http://www.warbirdregistry.org/p51registry/images/p51-4463864-main.jpg)
They were actually added to some B/C models as well.
(http://www.361fg.com/images/CharlieW/Page1/enlarge/BubinU.jpg)
(http://www.361fg.com/images/other/IV1en.JPG)
P-51B birdcage canopy:
(http://www.swissmustangs.ch/mediac/400_0/media/43-12408_1.jpg)
(http://www.collectair.com/images/p51b.jpg)
(http://www.collectair.com/images/p51b2.jpg)
(http://www.swissmustangs.ch/mediac/400_0/media/B-model~RAF~colours.jpg)
(http://www.starduststudios.com/RRGodfrey.jpg)
(http://www.starduststudios.com/Godfrey-scoreboard.jpg)
(http://www.starduststudios.com/JCM_P-51B.jpg)
(http://www.354thpmfg.com/gallery/Horry_Museum/image07.jpg)
P-51B Malcom Hood:
(http://www.swissmustangs.ch/mediac/400_0/media/42-103006~34th~TRS~ex~111th~TRS.jpg)
(http://www.starduststudios.com/Salem_Rep.jpg)
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3138/2703357194_d6065fa864.jpg?v=0)
(http://www.starduststudios.com/Twilight%20Victory.jpg)
(http://www.starduststudios.com/thornellsScore.jpg)
P-51D bubble canopy:
(http://www.swissmustangs.ch/mediac/400_0/media/43-12102_1.jpg)
(http://www.collectair.com/images/jerk1.jpg)
(http://www.swissmustangs.ch/mediac/400_0/media/44-13464~MX-A.jpg)
(http://www.starduststudios.com/JCMeyerPoints.jpg)
And, you realize what we've all forgotten:
(http://www.swissmustangs.ch/mediac/400_0/media/44-63887.jpg)
(http://www.swissmustangs.ch/mediac/400_0/media/twinmustang.jpg)
(http://www.swissmustangs.ch/mediac/400_0/media/P82E.jpg)
Where's the F-82 in all those other "fantasy 1946" flight sims?
wrongway
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Great pics wrgwy, thanks.
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Was the laminar wing on all mustangs or just the "D" model?
http://www.aviation-history.com/theory/lam-flow.htm
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I really have no idea what was behind the F82, don't know what they had in mind with that.
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I really have no idea what was behind the F82, don't know what they had in mind with that.
Range!
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Long-range escort for the B-29's. The 2 cockpits allowed for the pilots to alternate control during long flights, but some models only had flight controls on the left side while the right side had the radar operator. Apparently the F-82 had the first 3 kills in the Korean War (Source: Wikipedia, reliable, I know...).
It'd be real awkward shooting at something with 6 x 50 cals coming from your right side... lol