Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: BnZs on December 11, 2008, 10:47:36 PM
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I don't know about you guys, but I find that most skins (excluding bare-metal silver types) tend to just blend with the water tone we currently have, some worse than others. A plane goes from being difficult to see at "high noon" to impossible to see against the water at "dusk". It is VERY annoying to only be able to see a red icon. and not be able to make out your the opponent's wingline/planform, even with the zoom turned on. The problem also exists with certain land terrain/plane skin combinations. Yes I know how to adjust gamma, and it doesn't make any difference with this particular problem. I am running at maximum graphic settings on a good system, with a 21'' monitor. Yes, I know difficulty seeing the target is "historical", but this is one case where, as with readable instruments, I think we should err on the side of playability instead of perfect accuracy. Quite frankly, my eyes aren't getting any younger either, I am sure there are many AH'ers in the same boat.
It doesn't have to be this way. The shade of water we've had in some Special Events terrains, such as Tunisia, does NOT cause a dark-painted aircraft to become nearly invisible. I realize why MA terrains aren't quite as graphically detailed as the ones used in Special Events, but surely simply lightening the shade of the water and some trees would not overload low-end CPUs.
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You do know thats how they did camo, or do you mean, lets say a blue hellcat against some green land or water?
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He means the lighting and texture combine to make planes less noticeable than they should be.
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Some planes practically disappear from some viewing angles, and not necessarily dead-six, either. Sometimes I have trouble picking up the La-7s when I'm at their High 5 or 7 o'clock, even if they're gray against the water.
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/agree
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Thank for the support guys...I'm glad I'm not the only one having a problem with it. Perhaps I don't need that cane and dog after all? ;)
I actually ran into an NOE Ju-88 last night attempting to defend the fleet. I would have sworn I was taking a beam shot with it passing left-to-right, but I was actually coming in on it's stern. I really couldn't see anything but the icon. And this is a bomber, not a small single-engine fighter.
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I also agree, I think the terrain color scheme should be changed such like the FSO or AVA arena's, I thought there was some changes coming from HTC on the map terrains and such, does anybody know if this is still going to happen and when.
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What graphics card do you have?
I sorta agree now that I think about it, but before reading this, simply felt I had to make sure I was aware of my surroundings..........
Besides, if you have alt and some F4 is noe, you're still going to see them coming. When I zoom in full from 18,000 feet I can clearly see the Selector Skin on a 110, or any F4U blue and the direction of the plane.
I've got an 8800 card.
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Okay guys, fixed the post, sorry.
These are some screen shots of an F6F, 110, and 109 K-4 offline. The terrain is Trinity. These pics were taken using external view. I estimate the apparent size of the airplanes as shown in this camera position is equivalent to the what you would see being behind an airplane at ~400 in unzoomed view. The 109K pics, btw, were taken with default skin.
(http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/7031f03d8b70e26e9110ced5f5755ae16g.jpg)
(http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/8c480b2126cbe42089e0da39bccfe99d6g.jpg)
(http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/ae03f20b0cbef92d49d0ee449d575f116g.jpg)
(http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/dd46f144b83440d7f185590f43ee81c86g.jpg)
(http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/66c739d0c9c1d749b80ab7997cac483c6g.jpg)
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http://www.mediafire.com/?dcdvrgdiy8g
Is what he meant to type, I think.
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I agree with your wish/complaint. At 400 yards, one of these aircraft would occupy a much larger space in your visual field than it does on the computer monitor, the definition would be greater, and you'd have a sense of depth. Consequently, camouflaging/countershading is even more effective in the game than it was in real life.
Btw, save your pics in PNG format instead of JPEG so the colors don't bleed.
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Some water like the old one that had specular effects would make the planes stand out easily.. The present water texture has the same dull finish as planes and everything else in the game.
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A profile shot of an F6F taken at "twilight" against the water used in the current "Italy" terrain. This water or a shade like it would represent a welcome "step-up" in visibility for MA terrains also. :aok
(http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/ab10f94be2baa8b880dbcb670bc776716g.jpg)
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Im glad Im not the only one who see this.
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If your monitor can display true black this is less of an issue but still an issue especially for my tired old eyes.
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totally disagree with this one - its called camoflage and thats what its for :confused:
I mean theres a great big red flag over the con telling you what plane and its range, how much more help do we need?
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No.. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you ought to be able to spot a painted chunk of metal (maybe even flying low enough to lift some spray) from the sea. It's especialy unreal at low light conditions like dusk and dawn. The lighting engine showing its age..
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totally disagree with this one - its called camouflageand thats what its for :confused:
I mean theres a great big red flag over the con telling you what plane and its range, how much more help do we need?
Did you see my screenshots? A plane against certain terrains with certain lighting conditions isn't camouflaged, it's invisible at very short ranges. It is demonstrably impossible to do any ACM when you can't see the planform, wingline, or hell, can't even tell whether the bandit is "coming or going". Ever seen other airplanes from a real airplane? Traffic a mile away sticks out like a sore thumb, and you can easily make out the wingline/planform of something like a Cessna at that distance. In AHII, under the right lighting/terrain conditions, you can't make out the planform of a Ju-88 at 200 yards.
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yup looked at the screenies and in none of them is the a/c invisible. it is, however hard to make out because its a dark skin against a dark background, as it should be. if they are invisible to you, you either need to recalibrate your system or get a new monitor.
moot, at dusk and dawn not only is it darker, but the eye perceives less contrast and (need a GWC to help me out here ;)) ?desaturates colours.
so basically AH is simulating RL here - camo works to a degree and visibilty is worse at dusk and dawn. :aok
PS there was an AEW Nimrod parked up at Heathrow when I departed there once. from only 1000' at lunchtime on a cloudy day it was practically invisble on the concrete hardstanding. all the other (brightly painted) a/c stood out a mile...
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Can we have better and brighter water tiles please, kkthxbye.
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yup looked at the screenies and in none of them is the a/c invisible. it is, however hard to make out because its a dark skin against a dark background, as it should be. if they are invisible to you, you either need to recalibrate your system or get a new monitor.
Are you kidding me? Of course it's not literally invisible, but seeing the plane's aspect well enough for ACM is impossible the way they wash out.
The monitor is about 4 months old, and there is noting wrong with the adjustment on my system.
so basically AH is simulating RL here - camo works to a degree and visibilty is worse at dusk and dawn. :aok
Ah, the old AH as infallible argument...
Except that against virtually every custom water texture-you know, the ones that actually look more like water-planes stand out much, much better...so it is a paradox. Which AH terrain is the infallible representation of reality? :devil
PS there was an AEW Nimrod parked up at Heathrow when I departed there once. from only 1000' at lunchtime on a cloudy day it was practically invisble on the concrete hardstanding. all the other (brightly painted) a/c stood out a mile...
And there you've hit upon what aircraft camouflage is actually most useful for-concealment when parked. Perhaps also in certain circumstances when NOE over certain terrain, but not useful for much more than that.
Camouflaging in general works really against the human eye for stationary objects against a broken background...but once any apparent movement is seen or the object is "spotted" the effect is broken. And you've got to factor in the 3D effects when the airplane is ~1000 feet above the background, particularly if that background is more or less flat. It is like a hunter in camouflage. Stock-still against some bushes or a tree, he may be nigh impossible to spot. But once he moves, or you spot him, the outline is apparent. And a plane against the water is like that same hunter lying on a bare floor-no matter how well his camo pattern is synced with the floor, his outline will be readily apparent.
Just compare some of my sunset screenshots from the game with this:
(http://www.sunsetreflections.com/260WhiteSandsDr/images/SunsetWithUltralightPlane.jpg)
The paint job is really irrelevant against a water background...
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The reason is some of the times, is that your Gamma is 1.00, turn it up to 1.1 and it'll be a lot better.
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I actually keep it at 1.7
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RTHolmes - What BnZ said. You're arguing the general principle, I'm talking about AH's case specificaly. The lighting is just way too flat to render things correctly..
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lol thats a very "selective" pic you've used there. how about this:
(http://www.chappedliver.com/images/2007AirVenture/2007Oshkosh%20339.jpg)
5-10x the zoom in your screenies, highlighted against a very bright background. is it in a RH bank heading away or a LH bank incoming? you got 0.1s to decide and your life depends on it...
(and before you mention "stealth" its a big aircraft and radar sig is irrelevant here)
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lol thats a very "selective" pic you've used there.
That's sky behind it, not water. And I dont remember any WWII planes wearing that sort of paint, tho it could be comparable to dusty finish.
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That's sky behind it, not water.
yeah that was my point :)
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You lost me there. What are you arguing?
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Pic is not selective at all. It is an airplane against water at sunset. Zoom? I could shrink that pick to 25% this size and still be able to see the airplane.
I can see the planform of the plane perfectly in our pic. The plane's outline "melting out" against backgrounds was my complaint i the first place. If this was a movie instead of a still pic turn determining direction would be no problem.. (Very few pilots in AH or r/l make prolonged hard turns with neg Gs, for obvious reasons LOL)
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by selective I mean you chose a pic where the aircraft is
1. 3x closer than your screenies and
2. backlit with a massively bright and clear sunset and
3. of a type which has very clear visual clues of its orientation.
I tried to find a pic taken from a suitable distance and angle of a navy camo small military aircraft flying at 50' over a sea which is roughly the same colour as the camo. Couldn't find one, probably because the aircraft would be very difficult to make out, and thats not generally what photographers want for their subject...
I do agree that there should be alot more variety in the terrains in the MA. Both for land (snow, desert, forest etc) and sea (real sea ranges from bright blue to dull grey/green with all sorts of variations inbetween.) That way different camo schemes would work better on different terrains.
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by selective I mean you chose a pic where the aircraft is
1. 3x closer than your screenies
You exaggerate and this is irrelevant because you could shrink the picture to 33.3% its current size and the outline of the aircraft would still be clear.
2. backlit with a massively bright and clear sunset
A specious objection because MA weather is always sunny.
3. of a type which has very clear visual clues of its orientation.
Irrelevant, the whole point was you could see the aircraft in silhouette. Remember, the problem is NOT that AHII airplanes become silhouettes under some lighting conditions, the problem is that he silhouette itself melts into the background.
I tried to find a pic taken from a suitable distance and angle of a navy camo small military aircraft flying at 50' over a sea which is roughly the same colour as the camo. Couldn't find one, probably because the aircraft would be very difficult to make out, and thats not generally what photographers want for their subject...
There are many pictures like that. The "invisibility cloak" such aircraft have is the copious amount of spray and disturbance the passage of a high-powered a/c at high speed causes...oh wait, that's the OPPOSITE of camouflaging yourself, now isn't it?
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lol if I posted 2+2=4 you'd find a way to disagree with it. im out :salute
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Yes, when one is correct, the arguments pretty much form themselves.
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So what you are all saying is the water while the sun is going down or just up, is making a aircraft harder to see against the background. HOLY CRAP WHAT A CONCEPT!
"the problem is that he silhouette itself melts into the background."
You do understand this is why we started coloring our ground forces and aircraft ever sence the american cival war, something about shooting while walking around in red and blue uniforms, in a brown and green inviroment, doesnt take a rocket scientest to know its a bad idea.
If you are having a hard time seeing a aircraft, then the paintjob is DOING its job.
**Only real option is to make all the sea textures the same.** So we can make it easyer for you aparent ACE pilots to get your kills on the first pass. Obviously the big aircraft name and the range does nothing for you.
So fellas, can i get a amen when i have a hard time killing olav drab green planes against the green backgrounds of the land textures!?
oh wait, that only figures too, hmm. OH!..lets make it so they can have snow, then I can see everyone no matter what.
:aok (Strong sarcasm)
Cause its all about me. :cry
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It's not the principle he's arguing, it's how it's rendered in AH.
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Just my two cents, but BnZ, I noticed you mentioned you keep your gamma at 1.7. That could be a contributing factor to the problem you are having. You shouldn't need to bump it up that high. If you do (or have to), then you might need to upgrade some video components on your rig.
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Sir, go find a boat or other 40 foot object on or above open water at twilight on a clear day. Go 200 yards from it. If it's outline melts to nothing against the water, then tell us. We'll pass the hat to buy your cane and dog.
And btw, it is not just "water colored" paint schemes that disappear against water. In fact, you'll notice that the F6F shows up BETTER than the green and brown default 109 skin and the black 110 skin. (Those who are fishermen will know that black is a good choice for lures such as plastic worms, because it is highly visible in a wide variety of light/water conditions while simultaneously looking more naturalistic.
And the icon btw, is almost useless if you can't even see the planform. The icon is deliberately coy about distance (which is a good thing-brings more pilot judgment of closure rate and range into play-in short, it makes overshoots by deceleration much more possible than they would otherwise be) and tells you nothing about angles. You'd be better off able to see the plane and having no icons.
I have pointed out before, if you assert that what happens in the MA in twilight is an *accurate* representation of reality, then the water in several custom maps must be crapulent...
And remember, in AHII, it is a problem even in broad daylight.
I also see a misunderstanding of the uses and limits of camouflage. It works best when there are objects behind and/or in front of you to break up your outline. For an object thousands of feet away from any other objects, or with only the relative uniformity of the open sea for background, it might help conceal you from casual glances from a few thousand feet away, but would do nothing to a war-bird sized object "Predator"-like concealment against eyes only a few hundred yards away. Camouflage is something various air forces have from time to time actually dispensed with. While the pros and cons of this are debatable, it obviously does not make such a large difference than doing so is completely untenable. Like I say, more useful on the ground than anywhere else.
An airplane's visibility problems in AHII are not like the difficulties involved in spotting a guy in full camo back in the bush. Thinking that the plane *should* disappear against the open water like that is like presuming that a guy could dress himself head-to-toe in concrete gray cloth, lean against the nearest skyscraper, and be invisible for passers-by who know he is there and are staring directly at his position.
(http://www.ezthemes.com/previews/s/seaplanesunset.jpg)
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2075/2481923963_543920d983.jpg?v=0)
(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/85/245596229_23542eac53.jpg?v=0)
(http://hsus.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/06/27/184x265_duck_sunset_istock.jpg)
So what you are all saying is the water while the sun is going down or just up, is making a aircraft harder to see against the background. HOLY CRAP WHAT A CONCEPT!
"the problem is that he silhouette itself melts into the background."
You do understand this is why we started coloring our ground forces and aircraft ever sence the american cival war, something about shooting while walking around in red and blue uniforms, in a brown and green inviroment, doesnt take a rocket scientest to know its a bad idea.
If you are having a hard time seeing a aircraft, then the paintjob is DOING its job.
**Only real option is to make all the sea textures the same.** So we can make it easyer for you aparent ACE pilots to get your kills on the first pass. Obviously the big aircraft name and the range does nothing for you.
So fellas, can i get a amen when i have a hard time killing olav drab green planes against the green backgrounds of the land textures!?
oh wait, that only figures too, hmm. OH!..lets make it so they can have snow, then I can see everyone no matter what.
:aok (Strong sarcasm)
Cause its all about me. :cry
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There is no reflected light off the water in AH. So the only light we see is the setting sun. The dark side of the plane coupled with the dark non reflecting water makes it a dark mass with nothing to contrast.
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if you can see aircraft using Google earth we should be able to see them from with in the atmosphere, no?
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Yeah, second picture I posted up there was the worst sunset cloud conditions I could find with a seaplane setting in it.
Then I decided, pictures of ducks at sunset would probably be more common. Turns out a duck would actually be harder to see on land at dark thirty than he is setting on the pond....
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Like the argument for a different default German AFV skin or icons on aircraft, this thread is NOT about camouflage or how the human eye renders something in certain light conditions. It is about how a given image can be rendered on a computer screen which has many limitations compared to the human eye/brain.
Looking at the list of players agreeing with this, and seeing that it includes some great sticks, gives it even more credibility. The argument isn't being made by people who are failing at the game and looking for an excuse.
Change the water! :aok
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You mean like this?
(http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/6581/capture04082008185059kf0.jpg)