Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Hardware and Software => Topic started by: ROC on December 21, 2008, 10:45:59 PM
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http://www.killernic.com/products/killerm1.aspx
Skuzzy, I am going to invest in more toys shortly, and I am trying to figure out if upgrading my network card should be a higher priority than a second graphic card. Does a card such as the one I linked to "really" make a difference?
Currently, I am running:
ASUS M2N-SLI Motherboard
AMD Athlon 6000+ Dual Core
3 Gigs CL4 Memory
NvIdia GeForce 9800GT
WinXP SP3
Cable 10mb Down, 2mb Up
Standard 1394 Net Adapter with the NvIdea NForce Network Controller
The board comes with GB Lan, not sure whether a pci-express network card like above would be a better investment than a second card. If I had to pick one, what would be the greater benefit?
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It's been discussed a few times in the Hardware/Software section. If you can find a better waste of money for $150-170, let me know. But this one takes the cake. Your ISP is going to determine your ping/packet loss more so than anything else. The cpu utilization of onboard NICs is so negligible its not worth measuring.
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It's just a scam ROC.
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If you just want to spend money, just get an nvidia GTX 260. $200 and it'll run faster than 9800s in SLI. If you want to recapture 2-3% of your cpu utilization, get a soundcard. I read *somewhere* that the audigy2 ZS is about as good as it gets for bang/buck, but I'm not 100% sure.
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Thanks, didn't think there would be that much of an improvement, figured I'd ask those who knew.
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I read *somewhere* that the audigy2 ZS is about as good as it gets for bang/buck, but I'm not 100% sure.
I'm definetly loving mine. Nary a problem in what, 5 years I've had it? Except that they buried the drivers for it deep, deep in their website. Took me half an hour to find last time.
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http://www.killernic.com/products/killerm1.aspx
Skuzzy, I am going to invest in more toys shortly, and I am trying to figure out if upgrading my network card should be a higher priority than a second graphic card. Does a card such as the one I linked to "really" make a difference?
Currently, I am running:
ASUS M2N-SLI Motherboard
AMD Athlon 6000+ Dual Core
3 Gigs CL4 Memory
NvIdia GeForce 9800GT
WinXP SP3
Cable 10mb Down, 2mb Up
Standard 1394 Net Adapter with the NvIdea NForce Network Controller
The board comes with GB Lan, not sure whether a pci-express network card like above would be a better investment than a second card. If I had to pick one, what would be the greater benefit?
Here's the deal. Your cable speed is 10mb... a far cry from the 1000mb that card can support. Even if you were to install it, you're not going to notice any improvements in game performance. The network is only as good as it's weakest link. Even most website's aren't going to reach the 10mb speed of your cable connection.
The only benefits to a 1gb network connection would be transferring files from one local computer to another (if the other computer was 1gb as well)... OR if your internet connection was much, much faster and you downloaded multiple files all the time.
As far as the performance increase of having an add-on network adaptor vs. the onboard adapter... negligible if any. The on board network doesn't use the same kinds of resources that onboard sound or video uses.
Really the only reason to buy this card would be anticipating the need to upgrade in the future as internet speeds increase... BUT you could wait and by then find this sort of thing for a fraction of the cost at that time...
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Hmm, some mis-information and ignorance here.
The killer nic doesn't make that much of a difference, but it's not necessarily supposed to increase bandwidth anyhow. The whole point of the killer nic is to eliminate the computer itself as a source of network latency and bottlenecks. Even a perfectly tuned and tweaked computer will occasionally interrupt or delay network activity when it does other stuff like access the hard drive or do something that suddenly loads up the cpu and hits the memory bus hard. The killer nic has a computer right on the nic, so the computer can shove the network data right to the card and then the card shoves it down the pipe no matter what else the computer is doing.
This reduces any network stuttering induced by your own computer. Is it significant? That depends on how bogged down your own computer is. It certain can aggravate an already marginal connection.
That's how it's supposed to work. Does it actually do that? Well, every review I read said that it works as intended, however the performance gains are marginal at best and only a professional twitch gamer would notice the difference. The AH servers and client have network smoothing code built in, so it seems unlikely you'd see that much of a difference in AH. I will say however that if I was into AH dueling in a big way, having a better network connection than your opponent is a decided advantage so a hard-core AH gamer might find room in his/her budget for one of these cards because it just might provide that half-second advantage that might make the difference in a duel.
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I will say however that if I was into AH dueling in a big way, having a better network connection than your opponent is a decided advantage so a hard-core AH gamer might find room in his/her budget for one of these cards because it just might provide that half-second advantage that might make the difference in a duel.
Now that makes me gettin curious.. how is having a "better" network connection an advantage over an ordinary one?
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Hate to tell you this eagl, but every decent network controller since the DEC20010 (circa 1995) has had an on-chip micro-processor which handles the network stack as well as the bus master transfers of data. Most of the better ones from Broadcom also have a significant amount of on-chip buffering as well.
If you look at the source code for network drivers, that are pretty simple these days as the hardware does all the work for you.
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Hate to tell you this eagl, but every decent network controller since the DEC20010 (circa 1995) has had an on-chip micro-processor which handles the network stack as well as the bus master transfers of data. Most of the better ones from Broadcom also have a significant amount of on-chip buffering as well.
If you look at the source code for network drivers, that are pretty simple these days as the hardware does all the work for you.
What Skuzzy said, in the old days if you didn't have a DEC chipset you noticed. Nowadays the only differences a high end card is going to give you is network-geek orientated features (vlan support, lacp on a multiport card, stuff like that).
You're better off spending more money on a half decent router/firewall. Cheap crappy routers are the biggest source of gaming problems.
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Hate to tell you this eagl, but every decent network controller since the DEC20010 (circa 1995) has had an on-chip micro-processor which handles the network stack as well as the bus master transfers of data. Most of the better ones from Broadcom also have a significant amount of on-chip buffering as well.
If you look at the source code for network drivers, that are pretty simple these days as the hardware does all the work for you.
I know this Skuzzy, and I also know that even halfway decent buffering makes a huge difference, the same way it used to back in the day of ISA modems. Still, you caveat it with "decent network controller" and I challenge you to prove to me that most people are using "decent" NICs. Almost everyone I know is either using mobo onboard NICs (only moderately crappy) or truly crappy $3 realtek NICs (that happen to be wonderfully supported under linux because they are so simple/crappy).
The fact is that computer hiccoughs are going to either interrupt network activity or at the very least add latency. You can test this yourself, with a simple ping test. Put two nics in your computer. Ping localhost, and then ping one nic from the other. Latency will show up. The killer nic is *supposed to* tie into the network stack low enough that latencies normally introduced by normal computer operation are minimized. I read a good review that actually measured this, and the claims were technically true but as I said before, only noticeable in very specific scenarios (ie. lan gaming between two skilled twitch shooters).
If everyone on the network was using a high quality nic, then yea I'd say there would be no effective difference. But who really goes out and buys even a $30 nic, when they can use the "free" onboard one or a $3 realtek controller that works just fine as far as they can tell?
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eagl, quite frankly, those sites that came to the conclusion this card is doing something great made it easy for me to know which sites can be trusted and which ones cannot. I know too much about all this to by into the marketing of this product. And that is what this product is all about.
Some of the early marketing of this product actually claimed it could change the routes of the network connection to find better ones. That was just a flat out lie.
Sorry, but this is smoke and mirrors at its finest.
Sure there are cheap NIC's out there, but no one has to spend over $30 to get a really good network card that will offload the CPU of the entire network stack, handle all data transfers, and include jumbo frame buffer support.
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eagl, quite frankly, those sites that came to the conclusion this card is doing something great made it easy for me to know which sites can be trusted and which ones cannot. I know too much about all this to by into the marketing of this product. And that is what this product is all about.
Well, if I was talking about "great" results, then you'd be right. But I"m not even though you insist that I am. I'm talking very specifically about actual in-use test results that say that the killer nic demonstrated reduced latency in specific situations however the benefits are not noticeable except for highly experienced twitch gamers.
Let me say that again. The killer nic demonstrated reduced latency in specific situations however the benefits are not noticeable except for highly experienced twitch gamers.
My input specifically where it applies to AH is that the only AH gamer who might have ANY benefit from a killer nic is someone who is hardcore into dueling. I have noted from experience in AH (including those dueling tournys) that an AH player with reduced latency can have a demonstrable advantage over his opponent. In that situation, someone with a few hundred bucks to waste might find some benefit from one of these things.
That's it. No claims of greatness, no blathering of obscure technical terms that mean nothing in terms of real performance. Only the observation that the killer nic demonstrated in actual use a slight decrease in latency, and that the only people who might benefit from that are (as noted in the article I read) highly experienced twitch gamers, and (my input) AH duelers with too much money on their hands.
Some of the early marketing of this product actually claimed it could change the routes of the network connection to find better ones. That was just a flat out lie.
Who gives a flying ****? I didn't mention this, neither did anyone else in this thread. It was about what a killer nic would do in AH and routing was not brought up. Sheesh :)
Sorry, but this is smoke and mirrors at its finest.
This is true unless you play twitch games for a living or are obsessed with dueling in AH, in which case I could see someone wasting a few hundred bucks on one in order to gain that microsecond advantage that can turn an HO shot into a killing front quarter shot. Been there, done that, drex schooled my butt a bazillion times as I learned it.
Sure there are cheap NIC's out there, but no one has to spend over $30 to get a really good network card that will offload the CPU of the entire network stack, handle all data transfers, and include jumbo frame buffer support.
"Good enough" is good enough for pretty much everyone. We are in complete agreement on that. Our difference of opinion is if there is ANY measurable benefit from using the killer nic. I argue that there is a measurable difference but it is so small that almost nobody would ever notice it even in controlled circumstances, and I have not and will not bring up the outlandish and false claims made by the killer nic promoters or it's fanbois.
As for me, I know that there are also distinct advantages to having a POOR network connection and if you know how to utilize certain aspects of the smoothing code, you can take advantage of it. I just won't show anyone else how to do it since I'm not going to help others game the system :)
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Now that makes me gettin curious.. how is having a "better" network connection an advantage over an ordinary one?
If you have a better network connection than your opponent, you can see what he does before he sees what you do. Your decisions can therefore be made very slightly faster than his. Second by second it's only a slight difference, but over the duration of a dogfight being able to act before your opponent even sees your next move can be decisive. It's one reason why the best fighter pilots in the world sometimes appear to be prescient - they notice very small things and act decisively on them before their opponent even notices anything has changed. It's a huge advantage to be able to observe, orient, decide, and act (the classic OODA loop) before your opponent even recognizes what he's seeing.
It's the same in AH. A very low latency and stable network connection means you see and can act on what your opponent does as soon as the server feeds you the info, while your opponent's FE is still showing what the server told him 200 or 500ms ago.
The flip side of this is that the smoothing code levels the playing field, but again I won't go into details.
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If you have a better network connection than your opponent, you can see what he does before he sees what you do.
How so?
In my understanding, travel time of signals between our computers add up. I'm sending my data to the server (my latency) which then relays to your computer (your latency). The same goes other way round: Your signals go to the server first (your latency) which relays them to my computer (my latency)
So let's say you have a ping of 30 and I'm having one of 150.
Me->Server 150ms
Server->You 30ms
Total travel time: 180ms
You->Server 30ms
Server->Me 150ms
Total travel time 180ms
Total travel time should be the same both ways, so no one has an advantage over the other. I don't see how you could "see my moves earlier", which would mean that somehow my signals would have to travel much faster from me to you than yours would travel to mine.
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Eagl, the question is, is this card worth it? At 4 times the price of a good network card,..there is no way it is worth it. I call it a scam due to the various claims the manufacturer have made, that are just lies. I was not quoting any fanbois of sites. The claim it will change routes for you came from the manufacturer. Yes, it is a big deal to me, as it goes to the credibility of the product and those who designed it. You can call it what it you like. I call it scamming.
In real world use, there are just as many Internet gurus who have said it will not do a thing for your gaming connection, which actually makes sense. There is nothing this card can buy you, in real world use, as the Internet is the gating factor in the performance of online game play. Overall latencies and fluctuations in latencies are all impacted by the various routers on the Internet.
Today, most, if not all, network based games use timers to send thier packets, instead of simply blasting them out over the network every frame loop. These games will not be impacted by this card at all, as compared to a $30 network card.
Not sure why you are getting all wound up about this. Would a white paper on this topic help? I am a EE with over 25 years of networking experience. I think I am more than qualified to cover this topic.
By the way, I have not said it as I really did not think it needed to be said. If anyone wants to prove something, the easiest way to go about it is to create a test situation where the point will be proven. It does not mean the point proven is valid. It simply means there is a situation where it can be proven. Is the situation valid and applicable to the real world? I happen to know the answer to that question as I also happen to have a bit of coding experience in this particular area (both with HTC and outside of HTC).
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Eagl, the question is, is this card worth it? At 4 times the price of a good network card,..there is no way it is worth it. I call it a scam due to the various claims the manufacturer have made, that are just lies. I was not quoting any fanbois of sites. The claim it will change routes for you came from the manufacturer. Yes, it is a big deal to me, as it goes to the credibility of the product and those who designed it. You can call it what it you like. I call it scamming.
In real world use, there are just as many Internet gurus who have said it will not do a thing for your gaming connection, which actually makes sense. There is nothing this card can buy you, in real world use, as the Internet is the gating factor in the performance of online game play. Overall latencies and fluctuations in latencies are all impacted by the various routers on the Internet.
Today, most, if not all, network based games use timers to send thier packets, instead of simply blasting them out over the network every frame loop. These games will not be impacted by this card at all, as compared to a $30 network card.
Not sure why you are getting all wound up about this. Would a white paper on this topic help? I am a EE with over 25 years of networking experience. I think I am more than qualified to cover this topic.
By the way, I have not said it as I really did not think it needed to be said. If anyone wants to prove something, the easiest way to go about it is to create a test situation where the point will be proven. It does not mean the point proven is valid. It simply means there is a situation where it can be proven. Is the situation valid and applicable to the real world? I happen to know the answer to that question as I also happen to have a bit of coding experience in this particular area (both with HTC and outside of HTC).
Skuzzy,
I had followed the development of the Killer NIC and had never seen any statement indicating that it would change routes over the internet. I'm not saying that it hasn't been stated somewhere but that I had not seen it. I have been using the Killer NIC K1 card (does NOT have the dial to increase or decrease ping time) and I've been mostly satisfied in it's performance. What I have experienced is smoother connections, less boots, and in AH, the main thing that I notice is that I don't see the warpy buffs. I'm not saying that I haven't seen warps by planes but I used to see buffs warp all the time when I was in a GV but It is very rare to see it now. Truthfully in the bang for the buck department I have to agree with Skuzzy here. What I'm speculating is that the Killer has some type of "smoothing code" to lessen some of the problems inherent in the Internet. I know that there is no "Cure-all" for the woes of the internet, but this card does seem to decrease some of the impact. Would I recommend it to somebody who was scraping the fund department to have a machine capable of running AHII at a satisfactory performance level? NO! Would I recommend it for somebody that likes the latest toys and has the funds to maintain a system at the optimal level? Yes, I would. All in all, your mileage may vary.
All the Best...
Jay
awDoc1
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What I'm speculating is that the Killer has some type of "smoothing code" to lessen some of the problems inherent in the Internet.
Pure fantasy sorry. What you're saying is the equivalent to saying to a car mechanic "hey I put a new gearstick knob on my car and it goes much better now".
The Killernic is simply a nic with it's own processor, similar nic's are available and far cheaper (ie go buy a decent intel server nic). The benefits of such a nic is that it performs well under load. However a typical AH connection uses well less than 64kbps in each direction.
You really need to know the OSI layer, how each part functions with your data, how your data is transformed, handled, dropped or forwarded at each routing hop, and each switching hop, and understanding what devices could be between you and HTC and how they can affect your data in all sorts of ways. This is what skuzzy does for a job, me too.
killernic = snake oil.
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The latest version of the KillerNic does have a builtin firewall that runs on the mini Linux processor. So you can port forward or DMZ your gaming computer through your router, or bypass a router completely. I know cheap routers cause some of the issues we have in AH.
I purchased one a couple of weeks ago when newegg had them on sale. I'm having trouble getting my router to cooperate with the KillerNic. I've tried port forwarding all the AH ports, and I've also tried to DMZ it, but it's just not working. The router keeps dropping it, even though I assigned a static IP address to the KillerNic MAC. The DMZ function on my router simply doesn't want to configure at all, it's a router problem, not the nic.
So using the firewall ability is still theoretical for me. I could plug my gaming rig directly into my cable modem, but then my wifey wouldn't be too happy at the other end of the wireless router.
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You shouldn't need to port forward anything unless it's a *really* crappy router.
What use is a firewall on the card in a LAN environment anyway? You'd end up having to open everything up.
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Sure there are cheap NIC's out there, but no one has to spend over $30 to get a really good network card that will offload the CPU of the entire network stack, handle all data transfers, and include jumbo frame buffer support.
Roger that I lost both onboard NIC slots in my motherboard and then had to go buy a separate card. The connection improved a little bit over what the original was from the onboard NIC connections but not a ton.
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You shouldn't need to port forward anything unless it's a *really* crappy router.
What use is a firewall on the card in a LAN environment anyway? You'd end up having to open everything up.
I did a firmware update to my router, now the DMZ works. I've set my gaming rig to run in the DMZ while the rest of the LAN is protected behind the router.
The KillerNic built-in firewall is doing fine. It has two modes, Applications, and Gaming. They are switchable from the tray icon. Having the KillerNic firewall allows me to disable Windows Firewall. The firewall is configured to block all incoming ports with the exception of AH's ports, and that traffic must also be coming from HTC's dedicated IP addresses. When in Applications mode it also asks to allow outgoing connections from my other applications. In Gaming mode it doesn't interrupt with those requests.
So far my connection to HTC servers is working fine. No UDP drops switching to TCP yet.
I like the idea of it having it's own Power PC processor. Bigfoot networks is writing apps that can run on the nic in the background while my CPU is doing other things. So far they have the firewall and BitTorrent, there will be more.
Is it worth it? Well, I got the cheaper of the two KillerNics (K1) on Christmas sale at Newegg for $100. For 99% of folks it's not worth the extra $50 over an Intel Pro 100 NIC. For me, I like messing with new technologies that are at least 3/4 baked, it's fun. So it's worth it for me.
For folks without a LAN who want to connect their PC direct to a cable modem, the economics make more sense. You can safely connect direct to the cable modem using your Killernic firewall to protect your PC. That way avoiding buying a router for only the NAT firewall protection it provides.