Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: FiLtH on December 28, 2008, 11:19:54 PM
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Make an arena with tweaked models that stall easier, is harder to hit the enemy, enemy takes more damage to bring down, add winds etc.
Create an arena that makes players strive to get good enough to fly in. Full Realism in AW was harder than Relaxed realism arenas to fly in. Eventually it grew and was populated by many good pilots.
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I like some of this, however I disagree with upping the hardness of aircraft. We have an all-or-nothing damage model and whines galore about rubber bullets as it is. Requiring more damage to knock off pieces is just going to compound those problems (though I'd LOVE to see the glass engine in the F4U fixed).
However if HTC would ever give us a more detailed damage model where just having holes in your wings, fuselage and control surfaces impacted performance I'd be all for that. :aok
I DO agree with fixing the EZ-mode stalls and gunnery, (as it is it's WAY too easy to get high hit percentages) and adding wind in the arena.
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Make an arena with tweaked models that stall easier, is harder to hit the enemy, enemy takes more damage to bring down, add winds etc.
Did the "real" WwII really stall easier than ours in AH?
Took it really more damage to bring planes down?
I DO agree with fixing the EZ-mode stalls and gunnery, (as it is it's WAY too easy to get high hit percentages)
Uhm.. the average AH player is getting not much better hit % than his historical counterpart. And the few of us that realy excel.. well, most have an insane number of live target practice. How often did a WWII fighter pilot shoot at a maneuvering enemy? I do that more in one tour than even an eastern front "Experte" did it during the whole war.
Could it be that the wish of getting a bigger challenge may result in some kind of ultra-realism that may be actually not that realistic at all?
Just wondering...
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I've watched a LOT of gun cam footage, read more about the subject than I care to admit, and our gunnery is NOT too "easy". Lusche is spot on when he points out that real pilots had vastly less gunnery practice than a guy who has been playing a few months, much less a vet.
Examples: Several of Bob Johnson's kills literally *exploded* to little bits when he hosed them down with 8 .50s. IIRC, it was at Y29 that P-51D pilot shot a 190 in a turn with a deflection shot. The range was so close that the guns in each wing (3 .50s) hit each wing of the 190. Being hosed down by these 3 .50s apiece caused *both* wings to break and fold up over the canopy, like "a carrier plane".
Saxman: For offline practice, I turn my lethality down to .0001% sometimes. A few .50 pings to the nose of any plane *still*gets the oil/rad, even though otherwise you can hose it down from here till Christmas with 30MMs at those settings and not break off any flying surfaces. Interesting aye?
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I recall a Spitfire pilot who had done most of his combat in the Battle of Britain hitting a Bf109 later, firing a burst of 5 rounds from each cannon and blowing it apart. He said he'd forgotten how effective the cannons were and so was initially stunned when the Bf109 broke up.
Saburo Sakai described breaking a P-39 in half while flying his A6M, firing only 2 rounds from each cannon.
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If you want an arena with increased realism you're not looking at the right factors. My opinion is...
- Redouts should damage the pilot's vision
- Positive G's should hamper the viewing system and delay flap deployment, etc.
- Engine controls should include prop pitch, mixture, different throttle response times, WEP differences
- Other things I can't think of now ;)
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- Engine controls should include prop pitch, mixture, different throttle response times, WEP differences
I'd rather just see this in the normal arena, with a stall-limiter like option to simplify it for newbies.
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To be honest I guess Im looking at weeding out a few players to make an arena they may not be interested in. Selfish?
Ya maybe.
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We already have prop pitch. That is what RPM is. All the fighter aircraft in this game have constant speed props other than the Spitfire Mk I and Hurricane Mk I.
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I think even those have 'em, Karnak! We've got the later versions of both, with Hamilton props, right?
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I think even those have 'em, Karnak! We've got the later versions of both, with Hamilton props, right?
I recall those being three setting props compared to the original fixed pitch, two bladded props fitted on the pre-war Spits and Hurris. I could be wrong though.
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etc.[/li]
[li]Engine controls should include prop pitch, mixture, different throttle response times, WEP differences[/li][/list]
Definately :aok
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different throttle response times
Does the data even exist for this? If not, it wouldn't be realistic as it would just be fudged in for at least some aircraft.
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Create an arena that makes players strive to get good enough to fly in.
I think that's the key here. If this means making the arena "harder" than in reality, well, so be it.
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Create an arena that makes players strive to get good enough to fly in.
I think that's the key here. If this means making the arena "harder" than in reality, well, so be it.
Why? That sounds idiotic.
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I didn't have an AW subscription (I was into space games at the time) but I recall reading that the RR was the "main" and the FR was quite underpopulated.
Yes... just what we need... another TA with lethality at 0.0001 and only 10 folks in it at any given time.
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IIRC, it was at Y29 that P-51D pilot shot a 190 in a turn with a deflection shot. The range was so close that the guns in each wing (3 .50s) hit each wing of the 190. Being hosed down by these 3 .50s apiece caused *both* wings to break and fold up over the canopy, like "a carrier plane".
Somebody watched "Death Of The Luftwaffe" Season 2 of Dogfights :)
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Somebody give Krusty a cookie....he wasn't even there and he gets it. :eek:
FR in Air Warrior was seriously underpopulated until one weekend when Moggy "accidentally" broke Relaxed Realism and the RR weenies had no where else to play.
Air Warrior also tried having an "Ultra Realism" arena. It was a mega-flop. One thing to keep in mind when asking for "realism" is......is it fun? Does it enhance gameplay? Flying real airplanes is work, especially high performance ones. Sorry, I'm here to play.....not work. :)
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Why? That sounds idiotic.
Maybe because of the challenge it would pose ? If we can have things dumbed down and made easier than in RL, then why not up the ante for once?
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Maybe because of the challenge it would pose ? If we can have things dumbed down and made easier than in RL, then why not up the ante for once?
Because the ultimate goal is having it be fun while getting as close to reality as possible. Making it harder than reality has the same flaw that making it easier has, it reduces the proximity of the simulation to reality.
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The way I remember it, the squad I was XO of at the time <Rattlesden> , decided one night to go over and try it out. First flight was a B25 off a cv. Krusty is right. At that time there were only 40 or so floks who used it. We ended up moving our squad there. Then we talked others to coming along, guys we flew with alot in RR, and as the numbers grew, more and more squads came. Eventually near rthe end bigpac FR was just slightly less, or on par with each of the RR arenas.
Not saying we were the ones who changed it...just saying our squad and the JG26 guys had alot to do with its growth.
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Because the ultimate goal is having it be fun while getting as close to reality as possible. Making it harder than reality has the same flaw that making it easier has, it reduces the proximity of the simulation to reality.
Just to understand your point better, do you think that AH currently is in close proximity to reality?
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Just to understand your point better, do you think that AH currently is in close proximity to reality?
Heh. No. But that wasn't the OP's suggestion.
I do think that many posters here have a tendency to elevate the guys who really flew these things to superhuman levels of skill and ability in their minds when they talk about how hard they were to operate. These were 18,19,20, 21, 22 year old kids being taught to fly and fight in these over time periods as short as a month. If they were as superhumanly hard to operate as many would have us believe then there is no way they would have been useful warmachines.
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Actually AW FR was slightly less ardous than AH std. RR was like AH with anti stall permanently switched on and no G effects (blackouts etc).
So I think Filth wants an arena several steps beyond AWFR. I must admnit that most steps beyond what we have now seem to entail "hard work" rather than "enhanced skill or judgement".
However
I despair of the "its a game its not reality" brigade.
Of course we all know its a game (I hope). But its a game based around certain facets of reality and to preserve this the game play model is best to improve/adapt change along lines that also adopt certain facets of reality to create challenges that reflect the essence of some of the challenges that may have been encountered. This does not mean that it has to adopt reality in full or any part of it that spoils the experience.
Why is it that when someone expresses a wish for some effects or characturistics of enhanced realism (whether we agree with them or not) there is this stock reply regarding how close this game is to actual reality as if this singular expression of percieved wisdom condemns the wish to the waste bin.
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I agree with a new arena. Let's keep lw orange and have another like ava but have only 2 sides. 1 axis and 1 allied able to up their respective vehicles. Make that arena have no auto speed flaps and no killshooter kind of thing. Give players a penalty of being banned to the other country or less access to some vehicles for shooting friendlies. No perk points or names in lights unless 5 kills are landed. Putting more rounds into a target to kill it doesn't seem to be the way I would like to see things go. If like to see the strat system in effect and some good slugfests. An arena that does not have even an option for autotake off. No training wheels like combat trim. This might take numbers away from the lw arenas but would be healthy to find the sim junkies in this arena and the game junkies in the others. No 2 week accounts or anything. This would negate the gried making shade owners from switching sides and shooting friendlies maybe. The more kills you land the better planes you can up without gaining some rank kind of system might help it along. Yes a new arena might be a waste. Look at the other arenas we have. Do they get much use? If ava was open and had people in it with some touch of realistic brushstroke to it I think you'd see less ganging and less complaints of arena caps. What sucks is having ideas and not knowing what would have to get coded or redone to accomplish things like this. It might create a sim half and game half. The fights would have a bit less wash and repeat to them. The acm would mean something. If getting killed meant you had to wait 5 minutes to up from the same field again you wouldn't go into the fray without regard if you wanted to keep the fight going. These are just some ideas for if they ever did listen and do something like this. I'd hand my lw hat up for good. More rounds to drop a target though? That would probably take some tweeking on a less than every 2 weeks basis for a little while to get right. Sorry for being so long winded. Happy new year from the north country!
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No map and no icons. Only dar available in the tower.
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Even pilots back then had maps and chartlets I'd keep the maps but agree with the dar. Icons at maybe and a big maybe at 400 or less just to keep the collisions down but would be willing to part with that all together as well for the sake of keeping it on the not so easy side of things. Not a bad suggestion though really! Now if only it would happen. Has there ever been a wish granted to its fullest or do we drop these ideas here on our own deaf ears? Just wondering what the success rate is of this wishlist forum.
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Even pilots back then had maps and chartlets I'd keep the maps but agree with the dar. Icons at maybe and a big maybe at 400 or less just to keep the collisions down but would be willing to part with that all together as well for the sake of keeping it on the not so easy side of things. Not a bad suggestion though really! Now if only it would happen. Has there ever been a wish granted to its fullest or do we drop these ideas here on our own deaf ears? Just wondering what the success rate is of this wishlist forum.
As has been discussed REPEATEDLY, icons are there to compensate for the limitations of the game. A plane that could be clearly identified at 1000yds in real life is just a black speck at the same distance in the game. Monitors don't have high enough resolution to properly render these aircraft.
Additionally, in the game we don't have depth perception, so while in real life it was clear if a plane was flying towards or away from you you DON'T have that visual reference in the game. The icon counter, once again, compensates for this limitation.
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Aren't there several anecdotes where veteran fighter pilots try one of these sims and comment that it is *HARDER* than flying the real thing?
Okay, there are four areas where AHII's realism might be questioned:
1-Stall-limiter. Actually, I don't know if these even warrants a mention, since few people use it and it is basically a disadvantage to anyone who does.
2.-Combat trim. I've flown Il2 and honestly, manual trim doesn't raise the workload all that much. Now there are some planes which don't *have* three axis trim...if you have a twisty stick instead of pedals, that is annoying, trust me on this. Honestly, considering extra difficulty trimming/and or flying not perfectly trimmed presents on a computer and joystick, I favor leaving it as is.
3.-Engine management. This is another thing from Il2 which doesn't really change all that much IMHO. AHII's engine management is not complex, but it *does* limit you to staying within conservative settings. There is a factor people don't think about: With a "realistic" level of control over engine management, you could run your engine in a way that would wear it slap out after a couple of sorties, a factor you do not worry about since you get a "new" aircraft every sortie. AHII's system prevents that. There is one further objection, systems that use water/water-methanol objection never run out of it-there is that. However, IIRC, most of these systems had at least 10 minutes worth of fluids, which is alot of WEP time, at least by MA standards. So this is another change I can take or leave.
4. Auto-retract flaps. This is the one change that might have an effect on gameplay. After lots of incidences of having flaps torn off or jammed, people might be as reluctant to use flaps as heavily as we do in-game, and would stick with the maneuvering settings that have a wide safety margin at high airspeeds.
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Saxman I do agree with you on the resolution of screens and pixels of the digital world we play in. I do think taking the icons and not having them shown until much closer would give a better element of surprise both in the air and on the ground. Icons for enemy gvs should not be shown to aircraft. I know there's things that have to be in the game to simply make it a bit more playable since not everyone has a hotas setup and all. Just think that if there is to ever be an arena with harder settings like the op was wishing for, we need to take out the wrenches and remove some training wheels is all. With in game comms it wouldn't be hard to distinguish friend from foe. We do that already in fso events. It is easy to forget that not everyone has the irtracker setup with the dual core 4gbram system. At the same time there is obviously a good amount of players(
judging from what ive read on this bbs and conversations I've had with others while in game) that would most likely fill an arena that was more sim than game. Please keep in mind that this is the wishlist area and any idea here that hasn't been tried out yet isn't always something that needs to be suppressed or made fun of in my eyes.
Ill try anything they come up with for this game. Id love to call it a full fledged sim. F4s vs ponies and zekes vs 109s kind of kill the idea of this being close to sim. They won't model a plane that hasn't seen combat but allow 3 fictional countries to duke it out in a completely non historic match up is a bit against the sim grain. A lot of people just want that more sim than game side of the fun. Meant not to be offensive. I just agree with the op and have once again gotten really long winded. if anyone read this whole post.
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No map and no icons. Only dar available in the tower.
yeah...and when u die, you are dead. Create a new account. :rock
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4. Auto-retract flaps. This is the one change that might have an effect on gameplay. After lots of incidences of having flaps torn off or jammed, people might be as reluctant to use flaps as heavily as we do in-game, and would stick with the maneuvering settings that have a wide safety margin at high airspeeds.
I'd agree to this with the following point:
Aircraft whose flaps were designed to either blow-back or otherwise auto-retract should STILL auto-retract (F4Us and F6Fs should be able to pre-set two notches of flaps and have them drop and blow-back as speed allows, the N1K2 should have its auto-flaps, etc).
CJ,
No icons until 400 yards is RIDICULOUSLY close, as most aircraft would have been easily identifiable well beyond that range (and once again, the game can't show enough detail to identify that plane). I think setting the icons like if FSO would be fine for the Mains. Close enough to be more challenging without being too restrictive.
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Personally, I would like to see the arena options to include a better set of icon options for CM's
For example, I would also love to see the option of letting the CM's select a dot color so when the bogey is still some dots they are one color for friendly and another for enemy. It would also be nice if they could select more variables as to when different icons (range/type) would show up.
In my ideal world there would be no ranges. Rather, enemy "dots" would be grey and friendly ones green. Once within 1.5 k maybe type would show up but not range. This would add a lot to ACM and realism while giving some grace to reality. You could tell if they are bad or nice just the same and ID type at about the same range but SA would be beyond cartoon mode and camouflage pattern selection would actually make some difference.
As has been discussed REPEATEDLY, icons are there to compensate for the limitations of the game. A plane that could be clearly identified at 1000yds in real life is just a black speck at the same distance in the game. Monitors don't have high enough resolution to properly render these aircraft.
Additionally, in the game we don't have depth perception, so while in real life it was clear if a plane was flying towards or away from you you DON'T have that visual reference in the game. The icon counter, once again, compensates for this limitation.
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Oh yeah, maybe 400 is a bit too close but close enough to gain some surprise on the enemy if they aren't looking around would make it downright dangerous to stop paying attention. That's what would make things good for gameplay IMO
. As far as flaps go I agree as well. If a plane has the ability for auto flaps then keep it. The vehicles and planes should all be modeled like the real thing as far as this aspect goes. If a plane had lead computing gunsight, model it. If a plane had wings that folded up on the flight deck, model it. That's what I would be looking for in the sim side of things. Please don't get me wrong about the game and the work ht has put into it. I'm not whining or upset. Nothing wrong with the game outside of the usual complaints seen on the bbs. Just left with this wondering of why with so many arenas that are usually empty except one with a constant busy signal, (arena caps) there isn't one with the max you can get, full tilt, can't get more realistic than this kind of arena where all the stops are pulled and there's no crying in baseball. Game has been going for how many years now? No arena that is opposite the gamey side for the real sim nuts. I fall in between sim and game but crave more towards realism the more I play this game. Even if they tried some of these ideas a tour at a time, and I don't mean just my ideas the gameplay would be able to change as a whole for the better. Maybe a list of tried and failed ideas as a sticky here would make a difference as far as saving time? Didn't mean to hijack the thread either now.
>
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Personally, I would like to see the arena options to include a better set of icon options for CM's
In my ideal world there would be no ranges. Rather, enemy "dots" would be grey and friendly ones green. Once within 1.5 k maybe type would show up but not range. This would add a lot to ACM and realism while giving some grace to reality. You could tell if they are bad or nice just the same and ID type at about the same range but SA would be beyond cartoon mode and camouflage pattern selection would actually make some difference.
Range and closure rate are more important and often easier to see than type. It would be more realistic to have an icon saying "sumthin -1.5K" than type with no range/closure clues. With no range/closure clues and having to work with a monitor, you'd have guys practically ramming each other before they could even ascertain if the other fellow as coming or going.
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Range and closure rate are more important and often easier to see than type. It would be more realistic to have an icon saying "sumthin -1.5K" than type with no range/closure clues. With no range/closure clues and having to work with a monitor, you'd have guys practically ramming each other before they could even ascertain if the other fellow as coming or going.
Try turning icons off and using zoom... If you have done it a bit rough range estimation is not as hard as you think.
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I flew AW FR, true the numbers ran about 50 - 70. I do believe they're two different types of sim players in this game, the xbox pilots and the IL2 pilots squeezing both into one arena setting trying to please all is understandable if limited by server space. However, we have two spec events arena's, are both used at the same time? Is it a matter of server space? If not then cant one of these arena's be converted to a testing arena of sorts for this purpose?
I liked the limited icon idea. Maybe just a +/- by it at 5k. distance at 2k, then ID at 1k ? Would also like engine over heat, gun jambs and perked bomber drones added to the list.
Tokenjo
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If you are going for more RL, Engines can’t be run full out 100% or the time. Not without over heating. I actually have time in P40, F4UA1, P47, T6 and B25. I spent several summers ferrying these aircraft from AirShow to AirShow for a company that made a bundle of money putting these war birds on display at Air Shows all over America.
My Dad flew P47’s and P51’s in WWII , he taught me to fly in an old J3 Cub. He got credit for two 110’s and four Trains. He said he hated attacking trains in the P51’s because of the radiator. The Jug could take a lot more punishment then the 51. According to him he was never in a dog fight, they attacked from above in High speed dives, firing on their target. If the aircraft went down it went down. They never turned back to reengage. They were to busy managing power, fuel consumption, navigating and time on target.
My point is that flying a complex high performance aircraft is a ton of work, let alone fight it in combat. Most of the AH players including me, would not be up to the task.
They also never just jumped into their aircraft and took off to find the enemy. They flew in pack of 4 and 8. They also didn’t engage every target they saw. They flew their mission.
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Heh. No. But that wasn't the OP's suggestion.
I do think that many posters here have a tendency to elevate the guys who really flew these things to superhuman levels of skill and ability in their minds when they talk about how hard they were to operate. These were 18,19,20, 21, 22 year old kids being taught to fly and fight in these over time periods as short as a month. If they were as superhumanly hard to operate as many would have us believe then there is no way they would have been useful warmachines.
Thanks for the clarification. I am quite aware that most online pilots have vastly more combat experience than their RL counterparts, and also have the luxury to die a thousand times and each time they have the chance to learn from these deaths. It could be said that the online pilots are "superhuman" in that regard. But that is why I think a "harder" (some might say harder than reality) arena makes sense. It will give a challenge to those who think the current arenas are not challenging enough.
Some things i'd like to see in such an arena that some ppl might consider harder than in RL:
- Reduced ammo effectiveness by at least 50%, possibly more.
- Drastically reduced icon ranges/information.
Without going into too much detail, such an arena should make the "quick sucsess with little effort" flying style/tactics unfeasable and (hopefully) thus being inattractive for that kind of players.
Just by looking in the AH general forum now, it seems such an arena is long overdue.
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If you are going for more RL, Engines can’t be run full out 100% or the time. Not without over heating.
It's already been posted and proven several times that while maintenance time might increase, the concept that these engines would overheat and shut down mid-flight is a total BS limitation.
The only place I think a power-limit should be imposed is on BUFF formations. THAT is BS that bombers can run full power and not lose their drones.
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Some things i'd like to see in such an arena that some ppl might consider harder than in RL:
- Reduced ammo effectiveness by at least 50%, possibly more.
- Drastically reduced icon ranges/information.
Without going into too much detail, such an arena should make the "quick sucsess with little effort" flying style/tactics unfeasable and (hopefully) thus being inattractive for that kind of players.
Maybe just have an arena without cannon-laden aircraft. Or try flying an EW plane such as the Spit-1, Hurri-1 or C202. No such thing as "quick success with little effort" in those. I've been having a blast with the Hurri-1 (even in MW, LW and the DA), and I think it's making me a better combatant - I've learned patience and aim.
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This would b cool since more experienced crowd could take their wrath on each other and not some noob and Me more importantly. Sweet. Imagine you guys could have arena without ,hording ,hoes and ganging what more could you ask for?
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My hope is that more than just the people who have played for a while go in there. It should be for anyone who wants a little more of a sim than a game. I don't want it to become an elitist club. Ill probably be too old to even use my joystick by the time something like this comes along in here though ha ha.
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Maybe just have an arena without cannon-laden aircraft. Or try flying an EW plane such as the Spit-1, Hurri-1 or C202. No such thing as "quick success with little effort" in those. I've been having a blast with the Hurri-1 (even in MW, LW and the DA), and I think it's making me a better combatant - I've learned patience and aim.
Been there, done that. Its still quite easy getting kills in those, thier guns are quite potent against fighters.
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I didn't have an AW subscription (I was into space games at the time) but I recall reading that the RR was the "main" and the FR was quite underpopulated.
Yes... just what we need... another TA with lethality at 0.0001 and only 10 folks in it at any given time.
The OP also forgets to point out that AW FR has a flawed flight model, which made it actually harder than AH. For example, in AH, if you blackout it's because the game is registering that you pulled too many Gs. In FR AW, if you blacked out, it's because the game registered you using too much 'stick' force and blacked you out, it wasn't tied to how many Gs you pulled. Which is one reason why those that played FR AW had an easier time transitioning to AH during the Exodus.
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