Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: BaldEagl on January 01, 2009, 11:23:27 AM
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I had been wanting to get a few sorties in a XIV this camp so I did so last night.
10 kills, 1 death which was my own fault when I augered it diving straight down at a target right on the deck (but yes, I did get the kill).
What a sweet plane. 407 mph @ 18K. Same gun load out as the XVI. I was running down Typhs on the deck and could out-turn them once caught. E-fighting Zekes, Hurris and Spit VIII/XVI's with ease. Climbing to intercept bombers at about 4K/min.
Those who don't think the XIV should be perked really need to take one out for a spin. IMO it's every bit as dangerous as the Tempest but with 2 less cannons.
I might stick with this one for a while and see how I do in the long term.
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I'm not convinced it deserves it's perk, bar the gun loadout you can do all those things in a 109k for twice as long
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Think the 16 should be perked and the 14 unperked. 14 is real unstable and I think the spit 16 fanatics would have a hard time keeping it in the air
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Think the 16 should be perked and the 14 unperked. 14 is real unstable and I think the spit 16 fanatics would have a hard time keeping it in the air
I'm a XVI fanatic. I took the XIV out again this afternoon. 5 kills on one sortie. I thought I'd be able to run down a Dora on the deck but we were exactly even in speed. Couldn't close and held at 1000 yards for a sector and a half. Pony D's don't stand a chance.
Alright. I changed my mind. Unperk the XIV. :devil
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Alright. I changed my mind. Unperk the XIV. :devil
And perk the XVI :noid
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a 325 mph plane doesnt need to be perked
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I think the Spit XIV can be unperked. Baldeagl, you have good results in it compared to the average joe because you're a better than average pilot.
From December's ToD:
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3294/3156728435_6b190f865c_o.png)
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a 325 mph plane doesnt need to be perked
The Spitfire XVI does 344mph on the deck.
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a 325 mph plane doesnt need to be perked
Speed isn't everything.
I like taking the 14 up for a change. Took it up and got 5 kills with no harm.
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Spikes, he was talking about the 16, not the 14.
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The Spit14 is a 109K4 with alot better gun pack. When you fly it in its environment it owns everything.
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k/d alone does not tell the story. Of all the planes listed, the Spit XIV is the one people are most likely to actually attempt to FIGHT with, instead of cherrypick. It is also the plane most likely to be taken up by inexperienced folks who are mistaken about its capabilities.
These threads always compare the SpitXIV to the K4 and thus end up as better arguments for perking the K-4 than unperking the XIV. If the Kurt didn't have its difficulties with views, guns, and elevator lock-up in dives, it would CERTAINLY deserve to be perked, and maybe does even with those difficulties. In any case, no such comparison is a good reason to unperk the XIV.
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I had been wanting to get a few sorties in a XIV this camp so I did so last night.
10 kills, 1 death which was my own fault when I augered it diving straight down at a target right on the deck (but yes, I did get the kill).
What a sweet plane. 407 mph @ 18K. Same gun load out as the XVI. I was running down Typhs on the deck and could out-turn them once caught. E-fighting Zekes, Hurris and Spit VIII/XVI's with ease. Climbing to intercept bombers at about 4K/min.
Those who don't think the XIV should be perked really need to take one out for a spin. IMO it's every bit as dangerous as the Tempest but with 2 less cannons.
I might stick with this one for a while and see how I do in the long term.
+1, it's a speed demon in the MA's. Last time I took one up in the MA's (July/August) I got something like 5 or 6 kills and landed em.
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If the Spitfire XIV could pass 550 miles on internal fuel I'd fly it 100% of the time.
However, even if it did, I still don't think it needs a perk simply because it carried no bombs during the war. While the F4U-4, though out-performed by the Spitfire XIV, is a practically uncatchable fighter-bomber that can launch off a carrier deck. Any attempt to intercept it and it will either dive to safety of the a TG or just outrun you.
As awesome as the Spit XIV is, it's not ganna do that.
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Don't blame whels he doesn't get in a plane often :lol
Spikes you're right it isn't just about speed. The 16 has decent speed. accelerates good, handled decent in a dive, holds E beautifully, turns beautifully, and had a modest armament. should be perked IMO, and the 14 unperked because it's unstable and I think spit 16 fanatics would find it hard to turn and not auger once they get low and slow.
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Remember though, it's about balancing gameplay.
Spitfire XVI's are most often easy meat for anyone with better than average E-management, while the Spitfire XIV should be unperked simply because no one really knows how to fly it effectively. Most of the professional E-fighters have too much balls to fly a Spitfire :)
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Guys, get real. It is a Spitfire that can hit 361 mph on the deck. It would make anything with a "P" in front of its name, 190s, or Typhs obsolete in the MA. The 109K would be at at least a slight disadvantage.
Once again, we are getting comparisons, this time to the SpitXVI, once again the posters don't seem to realize that they are making a better argument for perking the SpitXVI than for un-perking the XIV. One thing about the XVI again, say what you will, its top speed OTD is 344mph, not too shabby, but still, most LW planes that can't turn with the XVI are as fast or faster.
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It should be unperked. The numbers it puts up are horrible. If it were to prove to be a monster unleashed then it could be reperked.
As it is everything is only guesses.
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Guys, get real. It is a Spitfire that can hit 361 mph on the deck. It would make anything with a "P" in front of its name, 190s, or Typhs obsolete in the MA. The 109K would be at at least a slight disadvantage.
Actually, the 109K4 is easy to catch in a XIV as I found out tonight. The only plane that's been able to outrun me the last two days is the Dora and we were evenly matched in speed.
I'm finding that 5-6 kill sorties are becoming the norm in the XIV vs 2-3 in everything else I fly. That's on par with my experience in the Tempest.
I did die a couple of times tonight but it was because I was getting braver; venturing in where I pretty much knew I shouldn't be. I also got picked once by a Temp while circling with a K4. Bad SA on my part.
I really do believe that if the XIV were unperked it would be akin to unperking the Tempest. The LWA's would be swarming with them. It is truely an awsome ride. It's only real deficit is it's propensity to snap it's wings pulling out of a high speed dive because it's so damn fast. As long as you're careful it's not a problem.
BTW, range isn't that bad. Slap on a sipper tank to get to alt and if you have a long way to go throttle back to max cruise. It'll still clip along at about 350 mph while almost doubling it's range (don't quote me on those numbers).
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It should be unperked.
Agreed, believe it or not. Spit 14 is the only Spitfire that is tricky to fly well. It's a monster once you learn it, but so are lots of planes.
- oldman
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Spikes, he was talking about the 16, not the 14.
As was I. :)
It doesn't need a big 20 perk like the 14 has now, but a light 5-10 perk on it.
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Remember though, it's about balancing gameplay.
Spitfire XVI's are most often easy meat for anyone with better than average E-management, while the Spitfire XIV should be unperked simply because no one really knows how to fly it effectively. Most of the professional E-fighters have too much balls to fly a Spitfire :)
Look at it in this sense...a mission is IB to a base. Quick, up Spit16's, LA7's, and NIK's ASAP! Almost all Spits I run into are 16s, and if I'm lucky I drag them up and flop over on them on the first pass. Otherwise I'm rat bait with how much I suck. :)
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I really do believe that if the XIV were unperked it would be akin to unperking the Tempest. The LWA's would be swarming with them.
That is SO far away from reality that I am actually speechless for now... :confused:
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That is SO far away from reality that I am actually speechless for now... :confused:
How can you know what the reality would be?
Anyone who flys a Dora, D Pony, K-4, Tempest or Typhoon would be a candidate to switch over. The XIV has all the positive attributes of those planes plus a better climb rate than some and better turning ability than all of them. That's not counting the XVI and La-7 converts.
I'm not saying everyone would switch but what if 1/3 did... what if 1/2 did?
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BaldEagl,
The only way that a Spitfire Mk XIV can pace a Fw190D-9 on the deck is if the Spitfire is on WEP and the Fw190 is on MIL. The Spitfire's top speed on the deck is 358mph, the Fw190's is 377mph. That isn't enough for the Fw190 to zoom away, but it is enough for him to pull steadily away.
And for what it is worth, I'd be shocked if the LWA was swarming with them after the brief "Ooh, its free!" period. The Spitfire Mk XIV takes a lot of effort to use and will bite you hard if you mess up.
I'm not saying everyone would switch but what if 1/3 did... what if 1/2 did?
What if 1/2000th did?
Unless they unperk it and see we'll never know, but I do know it wouldn't be anything like 1/10th let alone 1/2 or 1/3rd.
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Not based upon what the reality would be.. but what the reality already is.
The Spit XiV has a much lower perk price than the Tempest. 15 compared to 50.
Why is it then that we see MUCH less of the cheaper XIV than the very expensive Tempest, getting less than 1/4th of the Tempest skills? Why is it that despite this lower usage the Spit also has a K/D of ~1.2 compared to the much more poular Tempests K/D of 6.8?
The Spit XIV has a much lower K/D than many free fighters, but unlike them, it's perk status prevents it from being flown and wasted by 2-weekers...
The Spit 14's handling is simply horrible. It's a very tricky plane to fly, with lot's of stability issues. And that's the very reason it's so unpopular and by far the least effective & least flown perk plane.
BTW, the Ta 152 was once perked to.. with similar stats as the Spit XIV (and similar handling problems).
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Ta152 always posted a higher K/D ratio though (and still does) albeit with slightly lower total numbers.
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BaldEagl,
The only way that a Spitfire Mk XIV can pace a Fw190D-9 on the deck is if the Spitfire is on WEP and the Fw190 is on MIL. The Spitfire's top speed on the deck is 358mph, the Fw190's is 377mph.
I was on WEP.
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Not based upon what the reality would be.. but what the reality already is.
The Spit XiV has a much lower perk price than the Tempest. 15 compared to 50.
Why is it then that we see MUCH less of the cheaper XIV than the very expensive Tempest, getting less than 1/4th of the Tempest skills? Why is it that despite this lower usage the Spit also has a K/D of ~1.2 compared to the much more poular Tempests K/D of 6.8?
The Spit XIV has a much lower K/D than many free fighters, but unlike them, it's perk status prevents it from being flown and wasted by 2-weekers...
The Spit 14's handling is simply horrible. It's a very tricky plane to fly, with lot's of stability issues. And that's the very reason it's so unpopular and by far the least effective & least flown perk plane.
BTW, the Ta 152 was once perked to.. with similar stats as the Spit XIV (and similar handling problems).
OK, that's a good argument but I still think people would "see the light" so to speak.
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OK, that's a good argument but I still think people would "see the light" so to speak.
Only that there is no "light" to see.
The handling issues are real & severe.Hard to see the light when the average player is fighting more his plane than the enemy.
All performance numbers of the XIV are fine, and only based on them the XIV would be truly a monster. But performance numbers are only a part of the story...
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Not based upon what the reality would be.. but what the reality already is.
The Spit XiV has a much lower perk price than the Tempest. 15 compared to 50.
Why is it then that we see MUCH less of the cheaper XIV than the very expensive Tempest, getting less than 1/4th of the Tempest skills? Why is it that despite this lower usage the Spit also has a K/D of ~1.2 compared to the much more poular Tempests K/D of 6.8?
The Spit XIV has a much lower K/D than many free fighters, but unlike them, it's perk status prevents it from being flown and wasted by 2-weekers...
The Spit 14's handling is simply horrible. It's a very tricky plane to fly, with lot's of stability issues. And that's the very reason it's so unpopular and by far the least effective & least flown perk plane.
BTW, the Ta 152 was once perked to.. with similar stats as the Spit XIV (and similar handling problems).
Hey Snailman, didn't you see my beautiful chart? :D It shows how many perks were spent for a kill this last ToD:
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3294/3156728435_6b190f865c_o.png)
In a way, the Spit XIV is more expensive than all the other perk fighters except the 262.
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I was on WEP.
Yes, I know.
He wasn't.
That is exactly what I said.
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These threads always compare the SpitXIV to the K4 and thus end up as better arguments for perking the K-4 than unperking the XIV. If the Kurt didn't have its difficulties with views, guns, and elevator lock-up in dives, it would CERTAINLY deserve to be perked, and maybe does even with those difficulties. In any case, no such comparison is a good reason to unperk the XIV.
I feel that the comparison to the 109K is a reasonable way to justify/unjustify the spit14's perk because they are very similar planes. A rough comparison would be to say the spit14 is a slower, better turning 109k. The 109 has it's disadvantages of course, but so does the spit14 as others have mentioned- it's poor low speed handling.
Another significant disadvantage for the spit14 in the MA in my opinion is it's 5 min WEP requiring 15mins cooling, where as the 109K has 10min WEP, 10min cooling (i believe most planes have 5/10). When the spit14's WEP runs out it's performance is very average in my opinion, even with WEP many aircraft can out run at low alt which is the most common alt fights occur in AHII. Several unperked planes can run down the spit14 at low level including the la7, 109K, tiffie, d9, p51d and p47N which reduces the spit14's survivability in the MA.
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If you get caught on the deck, low-e then your flying the 14 wrong. Keep your alt, let the runners go. Even when they come back you'll be able to outrun, outhandle, outclimb them.
But I am still for unperking the 14 atleast for a few tours to see what the numbers say then.
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I've flown the bloody thing a little, did a series of duels vs a squaddie in a Spit16 once and won most of them (albeit, we started out at 15K and the fight tended to climb). If you are comparing it to any of the earlier marks of Spits, well yes, the XIV handles worse than what are otherwise the easiest-handling a/c in the game. Sure, and a wrong-turning engine doesn't help. But no worse than a Tempest's handling problems really, or even a Kurt4s for that matter.
And the Ta-152...really, we are bringing this up? Lousy argument for unperking the XIV. The Ta-152, for all intents and purposes at MA alts, is a slightly slower Pony with big cannons. And the XIV's handling quirks do not approach the oddities of the 152.
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If you are comparing it to any of the earlier marks of Spits, well yes, the XIV handles worse than what are otherwise the easiest-handling a/c in the game. Sure, and a wrong-turning engine doesn't help. But no worse than a Tempest's handling problems really, or even a Kurt4s for that matter.
I'm not sure if we play the same game at all...
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Only that there is no "light" to see.
The handling issues are real & severe.Hard to see the light when the average player is fighting more his plane than the enemy.
All performance numbers of the XIV are fine, and only based on them the XIV would be truly a monster. But performance numbers are only a part of the story...
I haven't run into these severe handling issues that you speak of. Of course, for the most part I'm not slinging mud in it at 80 mph either. If that's where the handling issues appear then it's not being flown to it's strengths.
That said, I did get into a turning contest with a Spit VIII last night. IIRC someone else finally got the kill but here's my take on that encounter: We started one on one and were both using the vertical. On the uphill sections of the fight the XIV had clear superiority. I could maintain speed and close on him as he rolled over the top every time. On the downhill segments I was holding much more speed and used a combination of lag pursuit and rolling around his flight path to hold position behind his 3/9 line. I had him totally on the run and there was little he could do to shake me. In retrospect, I needed to work throttle a bit better on the downhill segments so that I wouldn't have had to use as much rudder as I was using to get back in-plane for his breaks. Live and learn. Regardless, I held good speed throughout the engagement. I never heard a stall buzzer or hit the buffet but was able to maintain my 3/9 position through extended manouvering instead. I'm guessing I was holding 150 mph or higher throughout.
The Ta-152 has much more severe handling deficits than the XIV. There really is no comparison.
Oops... accidently posted before I finished.
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Really Lusche? Does the SpitXIV have low-speed high-power roll control issues worse than the Tempest or K-4, or yaw instability issues worse than the Ta-152.
Like I say, the problem comes in when comparing the XIV to other Spits (say the 16) and not to the LW planeset as a whole. You have a small number of planes who are conceivably a threat to the XIV, but a much larger number it could plain out-run, out-climb, out-turn and generally outfight, or who are else so much slower than the XIV that it never has to fight them at all if the XIV pilot keeps his head.
Remember, the only justification for the 16 NOT being perked is medium speed...
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Really Lusche? Does the SpitXIV have low-speed high-power roll control issues worse than the Tempest or K-4, or yaw instability issues worse than the Ta-152.
In short: Yes.
And I read a lot of "But I'm killing a lot of (insert plane) in the MA with it" or "But my k/d in a Spit XIV is so and so"
Well I frequently outturn Spit's in my Ta 152H, and I'm having an overall K/D of ~5in the Hurricane I in LW MA. But that doesn't mean the Ta is a better turner than the Spit or the Hurri I is a killer worthy of being perked. You have to take the pilot's skill levels into account.
And fact is, the overall success of the XIV is quite limited. Average K/D (lousy when compared to other perk planes) and very low absolute kill numbers. And this is not a short time phenomenom but stable from tour to tour.
And I have a very hard time to believe it's just because it's only flown by n00bs and just no one is flying it to it's strengths. The perk price is already boosting K/D, because it prevents 2 weekers and complete inept players from flying it.
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If the 14 were unperked the arena WOULD be swarming with them...for the first few days, then people would realize it's not as..."user friendly" as he 16, and would switch over to the 8
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If the 14 were unperked the arena WOULD be swarming with them...for the first few days, then people would realize it's not as..."user friendly" as he 16, and would switch over to the 8
thats assuming people know what the roman numerals represent.
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In short: Yes.
I absolutely do not see this. I took it up offline to be sure after I read this. Compared to the Ta, a very steady gun platform. Roll rate at 120mph with the engine wide open, *not* sprightly but better than the tempest. Rolls against torque at least as well as the K-4 does.
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And fact is, the overall success of the XIV is quite limited. Average K/D (lousy when compared to other perk planes) and very low absolute kill numbers. And this is not a short time phenomenom but stable from tour to tour.
And I have a very hard time to believe it's just because it's only flown by n00bs and just no one is flying it to it's strengths. The perk price is already boosting K/D, because it prevents 2 weekers and complete inept players from flying it.
Consider the fact that is has a relatively low perk-price, it has the same *name* as an airplane series newer players are likely to be comfortable with, but is in fact, a totally different airplane. Not a bad airplane, but different.
Also consider the fact that once again, it is a perk-plane that people are more likely to be actually *fighting* in, instead of vulching and cherrypicking. The Tempest's k/d would probably be even lower than the XIVs if they were actually used for dogfighting instead of slashing through.
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Agree completely with Lusche. The Spit 14 is mediocre when compared to most of the LW monsters except for its climb rate. The amount of engine torque present in high-power, low-speed maneuvers is difficult for most pilots to control successfully. Its heavy controls at high speeds make it a difficult BnZ aircraft. I can't think of a single facet of its performance envelope that encourages me to take it over any of its unperked peers in typical MA combat.
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Consider the fact that is has a relatively low perk-price, it has the same *name* as an airplane series newer players are likely to be comfortable with, but is in fact, a totally different airplane. Not a bad airplane, but different.
Also consider the fact that once again, it is a perk-plane that people are more likely to be actually *fighting* in, instead of vulching and cherrypicking. The Tempest's k/d would probably be even lower than the XIVs if they were actually used for dogfighting instead of slashing through.
That might be valid if people were actually using it. Its usage numbers indicate that is not the case. It simply isn't being used on purpose. I wouldn't be surprised if a fair number of Spitfire Mk XIV sorties are made in error by people who intended to take some other variety of Spitfire. Yes, this would drive its K/D ratio down too.
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thats assuming people know what the roman numerals represent.
LOL good point.
I upped a Spit 14 earlier to get a feel for it. That thing is an AMAZING climber. was climbing at 4500 fpm WEP climb from the deck up to 10K. I went afk for a minute, came back and a 190 was 1.5k off my 6, so I turned into him, I had forgotten how unstabe that thing is (especially when turning it to the left) Shot down the 190, then spotted a set of 24s. It tore up the buffs with ease, it held its E, and I could zoom back up and prepare for another pass.
I still think it should be unperked. Its climbing wouldn't be matched by any other un-perked plane but it really wouldn't be an effectie turn fighter for someone just starting out (which IMO is most spit 16 pilots)
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B4Buster,
The Bf109K-4 out climbs it.
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B4Buster,
The Bf109K-4 out climbs it.
Not until around 13k does the K4 start to out climb the 14.
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I dont think the 14 should be perked. Much like I didnt think the TA-152 shouldnt have been perked.
Now I wonder how much difference did unperking the 152 have on sortie rates and K/D ratios? My guess is not much and that for the most part pretty much the same small pool of 152 specialists are flying it. At least now some months after it was de-perked.
De-perking the Spit-14 might see a bigger increase then the 152 in usage rates, at least at the beginning, and maybe months down the line. But not much more. The thing is the reality of what actually happens in the MAs will continue to put most Spit drivers into their 5s, 8s, 9s, and 16s.
It would be interesting to see what really happens. Its actually very interesting to see so few 14s despite the popularity of the Spits, and despite its low perk price.
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Not until around 13k does the K4 start to out climb the 14.
Actually, the climb performance of the two planes are thoroughly matched from sea level upto 10k. Between 10k and 20k the K-4 outclimbs the Spit14 hands down, and then from 20k and on the Spit14 starts holding a constant but minor advantage.
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Baldeagle, it doesn't sound like you were pushing the spit14 to it's limit if you didn't hear the stall buzzer or any buffet.
Bnzs i'm astonished you think it has good low speed handling, low speed handling is more than being able to roll at low speeds, did you try and mix it up in a spit14? I took the spit14 up for a couple of hours in the MA/DA last night because although i used to fly it a lot, i haven't flown it for some time so this is what i found- (this is entriely subjective)
The spit14 nose bounces all over the place when there is input from the stick making it difficult to aim, it is prone to torque rolls if power is cobbed on and is also prone to flat spins if the nose is high or if the aircraft is slipping. This is in stark contrast to the the 109K which can be thrown about at all angles- the aircraft feels steady as a rock low speeds in comparison, easily recoverable if a stall is entered. The 109k will go where you want it to go, the spit14 fights you every inch of the way.
We have 2 arenas now anyway, HTC could unperk it in one arena....errrr.... for an experiment. :D
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Don't need no stinkin' experiment. The Spit14 doesn't deserve a perk.
Nothing can justify the Spit14 perk when there are D-9s, K-4s, La-7s running out there unperked.
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B4Buster,
The Bf109K-4 out climbs it.
Like Larry said, not until about 13k, and you won't get that high most of the time in the MA
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Bnzs i'm astonished you think it has good low speed handling, low speed handling is more than being able to roll at low speeds, did you try and mix it up in a spit14? I took the spit14 up for a couple of hours in the MA/DA last night because although i used to fly it a lot, i haven't flown it for some time so this is what i found- (this is entriely subjective)
I didn't take it out for any duels, but I have in the past. I didn't say it was a particularly steady plane, I do think posters are exaggerating the horribleness of its handling. From aerobatics and target shooting, I can tell that it does pay to have a yaw input device and use it judiciously during maneuvers to keep the ball centered. It makes sense that a 5 bladed prop will generate alot of gyroscopic forces. But, the workload for keeping her flying straight is easier than the Ta-152's. I think many of the handling problems may simply be the fact that by and large we will be used to a prop turning the opposite way, all our instincts and feel are attuned to that. The Kurt4 and Tempest remain harder to control in the rolling plane and of course the 14 has the edge on wingloading on both of those in the turn.
It certainly isn't like the other Spits, but then again, a K4 or a Tempest doesn't handle like a Spit, that means they are horrible worthless airplanes now doesn't it? :D
You are right that it can enter a tail slide if gotten slow with the nose high, but that is true of all Spits.
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Don't need no stinkin' experiment. The Spit14 doesn't deserve a perk.
Nothing can justify the Spit14 perk when there are D-9s, K-4s, La-7s running out there unperked.
LOL, the D9 is utterly inferior to the Spit14 except for top speed at very low alt. Even the speed advantage drops to a paltry 8mph if the D9 has a centerline rail for the drop tank, which must be carried for the most part with MA fuel burns. The K-4 is closer in performance, yet has its well known disadvantages, and in a duel between equals, the SpitXIV should win.
Kweassa, the La-7 by all rights SHOULD be perked, the excuse for it not being is short legs and no drop tanks. The La-7 also manages to have massive engine power relative its size yet does not have the torque difficulties other planes with monster power/weight ratios, like the XIV or K4, it in fact seems to exhibit almost P-38 like abilities in the vertical. But I digress...
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Last night I was in a P-51d and tried to fight a 109K at around 12k ft. After winning the merge (the K-4 pilot didn't expect me to fight, I think) his La-7 countryman climbed up into our fight and forced me to extend. I laughed out loud watching that La-7 try to catch me at 12k ft. :lol
The La-7 is only good at extremely low altitudes, so that's another reason why it doesn't deserve a perk.
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Actually, the climb performance of the two planes are thoroughly matched from sea level upto 10k. Between 10k and 20k the K-4 outclimbs the Spit14 hands down, and then from 20k and on the Spit14 starts holding a constant but minor advantage.
(http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/4/24/1013733/spit14k4.png)
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All this talk has made me decide to try the XIV and 152 this tour, just so I can mess up the K/D ratios. :P
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Last night I was in a P-51d and tried to fight a 109K at around 12k ft. After winning the merge (the K-4 pilot didn't expect me to fight, I think) his La-7 countryman climbed up into our fight and forced me to extend. I laughed out loud watching that La-7 try to catch me at 12k ft. :lol
The La-7 is only good at extremely low altitudes, so that's another reason why it doesn't deserve a perk.
One, while the La-7's performance doesn't *dominate* at 12K, but it doesn't exactly suck either. Check DokGonzo's for yourself Anax. The La-7 does not give up a huge amount in speed to the P-51 at 12K-20K, is as good or better in climb, and of course still has a much lighter wing-loading.
Two, most fighting in the MA is low, the La-7 has no reason to leave its comfort zone to hunt, and, finding itself in trouble, easily re-enters its comfort zone by diving. If there was as much, or indeed any combat above 20K the La-7 might not have inordinate value relative other fighters, but such is not the case.
Oh, and if we unperk the SpitXIV, then not only will we have the La-7 making the deck basically an untenable place for the high-speed E fighters to be, the unperked SpitXIVs running around will have the same effect at higher altitudes. If making the P-51s, Jugs, 190s, Typhoons, etc., obsolete in the MA sounds like a good thing to you, well then, I'm afraid we must part ways on that one.
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Oh, and if we unperk the SpitXIV, then not only will we have the La-7 making the deck basically an untenable place for the high-speed E fighters to be, the unperked SpitXIVs running around will have the same effect at higher altitudes. If making the P-51s, Jugs, 190s, Typhoons, etc., obsolete in the MA sounds like a good thing to you, well then, I'm afraid we must part ways on that one.
This very unpopular and ineffective perk plane will not, under any circumstances, be a very popular and effective non-perk fighters. Many players will try it in tour one, most of them will quickly go back to Spit 16 LA7 P51 due to it's horrible handling. Open it to the "masses", and you will see see all those average & worse players flopping around, despereatly fighting nose bounce while trying to hit anything and slowly spin to the ground...
How important even some minor changes to handling are to the popularity of a fighter can be seen in the LA-7. All performance numbers were unchanged, artwork greatly omproved.. but the minor handling changes resulted in a net "usage" decline by almost 50%!
And I don't see any way how jugs could be made "obsolete" by a unperked 14 - we already have a lot of planes both faster as well as more maneuverable than the Jugs, so they should have been long obsolete by now ;)
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Oh, and if we unperk the SpitXIV, then not only will we have the La-7 making the deck basically an untenable place for the high-speed E fighters to be, the unperked SpitXIVs running around will have the same effect at higher altitudes. If making the P-51s, Jugs, 190s, Typhoons, etc., obsolete in the MA sounds like a good thing to you, well then, I'm afraid we must part ways on that one.
You mean just like the SpitfireXVI dominates the furballs now? :D
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Anax, pull a Late-war plane at random out of your hat. I can guarantee you that 99% of the time, if it can't maneuver on fairly equal terms with a SpitXVI, it will be at least as fast or faster. The same cannot be said for the Lala or the SpitXIV.
You must understand of course, that as far as I'm concerned HTC *could* perk the SpitXVI lightly, 3-5, about the same I'd assign to the La-7. And lower the SpitXIV's price to the same amount, perhaps.
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I find that the XIV is crippled by strange torque effect - it is difficult to hit those rudder snapshots in it because it skews in a strange way.
I don't think the in game XIV turns as well as it should: -
http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spit14afdu.html
TACTICAL COMPARISON WITH SPITFIRE IX
13. The tactical differences are caused chiefly by the fact that the Spitfire XIV has an engine of greater capacity and is the heavier aircraft (weighing 8,400 lbs. against 7,480 lbs. of Spitfire IX).
Range & Endurance
14. The Spitfire XIV, without a long-range tank, carries 110 gallons of fuel and 9 gallons of oil. When handled similarily, the Spitfire XIV uses fuel at about 1 1/4 times the rate of the Spitfire IX. Its endurance is therefore slightly less. Owing to its higher speed for corresponding engine settings, its range is about equal. For the same reasons, extra fuel carried in a long-range tank keeps its range about equal to that of the Spitfire IX, its endurance being slightly less.
Speeds
15. At all heights the Spitfire XIV is 30-35 mph faster in level flight. The best performance heights are similar, being just below 15,000 and between 25,000 and 32,000 ft.
Climb
16. The Spitfire XIV has a slightly better maximum climb than the Spitfire IX, having the best maximum rate of climb yet seen at this Unit. In the zoom climb the Spitfire XIV gains slightly all the way, especially if full throttle is used in the climb.
Dive
17. The Spitfire XIV will pull away from the Spitfire IX in a dive.
Turning Circle
18. The turning circles of both aircraft are identical. The Spitfire XIV appears to turn slightly better to port than it does to starbord. The warning of an approaching high speed stall is less pronounced in the case of the Spitfire Mk XIV.
Rate of Roll
19. Rate of roll is very much the same.
Search View and Rear View
20. The search view from the pilot's cockpit is good; the longer nose of the aircraft interferes with the all-round visibility, which remains the same as that of the Spitfire IX. Rear View is similar.
Sighting View and Fire Power
21. The sighting view is slightly better being 4 deg (140 m.p.h.) as against 3 1/3 deg. The two bulges at the side cause little restriction. The firepower is identical with the Spitfire IX.
Armour
22. As for the Spitfire IX
Conclusions
23. The all-round performance of the Spitfire XIV is better than the Spitfire IX at all heights. In level flight it is 25-35 m.p.h. faster and has a correspondingly greater rate of climb. Its manoeuvrability is as good as a Spitfire IX. It is easy to fly but should be handled with care when taxying and taking off.
BRIEF TACTICAL COMPARISON WITH TEMPEST V
Range and Endurance
24. Rough comparisons have been made at the maximum continuous cruising conditions of both aircraft. (3150 revs. +4 1/2 lb. boost Tempest, 2400 revs. +7 lb. boost Spitfire XIV).
24A. The best heights of each aircraft are very different, producing the following results:-
The Tempest is faster and goes further up to 10,000 ft. From 10,000 - 20,000 ft. both aircraft cruise at about 300 I.A.S. Above 20,000 ft. the Tempest cannot maintain its high crusing speed and no comparisons can be made with the Spitfire XIV which increases its ground speed and range up to 29,000 ft.
These comparisons remain the same with the full fuel loads at present available (2 x 45 gall. long range tank Tempest, 1 x 90 gall. longe range tank Spitfire).
Maximum Speed
25. From 0 - 10,000 feet the Tempest V is 20 mph. faster than the Spitfire XIV. There is then little to choose until 22,000 feet, when the Spitfire XIV becomes 30-40 mph. faster, the Tempest's operational ceiling being about 30,000 feet as opposed to the Spitfire XIV's 40,000 feet.
Maximum Climb
26. The Tempest is not in the same class as the Spitfire XIV. The Tempest V however, has a considerably better zoom climb, holding a higher speed thoughout the manoeuvre. If the climb is prolonged until climbing speed is reached then, of course, the Spitfire XIV will begin to catch up and pull ahead.
Dive
27. The Tempest V gains on the Spitfire XIV.
Turning Circle
28. The Spitfire XIV easily out-turns the Tempest.
Rate of Roll
29. The Spitfire XIV rolls faster at speeds below 300 mph., but definitely more slowly at speeds greater than 350 mph.
Conclusions
30. The tactical attributes of the two aircraft being completely different, they require a separate handling techique in combat. For this reason Typhoon squadrons should convert to Tempests, and Spitfire squadrons to Spitfire XIVs, and definitely never vice-versa, or each aircraft's particular advantages would never be appreciated. Regarding performance, if correctly handled, the Tempest is the better below about 20,000 feet and the Spitfire XIV the better above that height.
TACTICAL COMPARISON WITH MUSTANG III
Radius of Action
31. Without a long range tank, the Spitfire XIV has no endurance. With a 90 gallon long-range tank it has about half the range of the Mustang III fitted with 2 x 62 1/2 gallon long range tanks.
Maximum Speed
32. The maximum speed are practically identical.
Maximum Climb
33. The Spitfire XIV is very much better.
Dive
34. As for the Spitfire IX. The Mustang pulls away, but less markedly.
Turning Circle
35. The Spitfire XIV is better.
Rate of Roll
36. The advantage tends to be with the Spitfire XIV.
Conclusion
37. With the exception of endurance no conclusions can be drawn, as these two aircraft should never be enemies. The choice is a matter of taste.
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You must understand of course, that as far as I'm concerned HTC *could* perk the SpitXVI lightly, 3-5, about the same I'd assign to the La-7. And lower the SpitXIV's price to the same amount, perhaps.
Ah yes, the old classic "Perk any British Fighter that entered service later than 1943" argument. Haven't seen one of those recently.
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And I don't see any way how jugs could be made "obsolete" by a unperked 14 - we already have a lot of planes both faster as well as more maneuverable than the Jugs, so they should have been long obsolete by now ;)
SpitXIV takes the Jug's bailiwick, high altitude, away from it. Simple as that.
Almost nothing more maneuverable than a P-47N is both faster and can dive with it. The La-7 is perhaps the biggest threat, but a light Jug is not so inferior in maneuverability that an isolated Lala is an insurmountable obstacle. However, if all the Jugs are already driven down on the deck by SpitXIVs that can reach 15K in ~3.5 minutes and are otherwise totally superior? ;)
Handling changes to the Lala? Not sure that is the explanation. Fads come and go. Doesn't seem so bad to me. Still hangs on its prop straight up to absurdity, without the torque problems you'd expect from a huge radial in a tiny airframe.
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Ah yes, the old classic "Perk any British Fighter that entered service later than 1943" argument. Haven't seen one of those recently.
Its all about the performance Karnak. Do you honestly think I'm arguing that more formidable fighters should carry higher prices because I hate the British? :huh
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Its all about the performance Karnak. Do you honestly think I'm arguing that more formidable fighters should carry higher prices because I hate the British? :huh
Given the effect those fighters have on the game (no more than some other non-British fighters) and their complete performance characteristics (great speed and climb ruined by handling issues in the case of the Mk XIV) it certainly appears so.
You guys keep focusing on the raw numbers of the Mk XIV, and it does look really good on paper. Then you fly it and it sucks. You are fighting the airplane as much as the enemy. Is it extremely good in the hands of skilled player? Yes. So are the Bf109K-4, Ki-84, Fw190D-9, La-7, Typhoon Mk Ib, N1K2-J, P-51D, F4U-1A, Spitfire Mk XVI and so on. Is it extremely good in the hands of an average or new player? Not nearly as good as the La-7, N1K2-J, Spitfire Mk XVI. Probably not even as good as the Ki-84 and F4U-1A, both of which have "quirks" to them that need to be learned.
It also has cripplingly short range.
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SpitXIV takes the Jug's bailiwick, high altitude, away from it. Simple as that.
Almost nothing more maneuverable than a P-47N is both faster and can dive with it. The La-7 is perhaps the biggest threat, but a light Jug is not so inferior in maneuverability that an isolated Lala is an insurmountable obstacle. However, if all the Jugs are already driven down on the deck by SpitXIVs that can reach 15K in ~3.5 minutes and are otherwise totally superior?
Handling changes to the Lala? Not sure that is the explanation. Fads come and go. Doesn't seem so bad to me. Still hangs on its prop straight up to absurdity, without the torque problems you'd expect from a huge radial in a tiny airframe.
Summary:
"British Spit14s are better than American P-47N. So they should be perked"
.. good argument.
Not.
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bnzs, you want to perk the spit14 because it's good at high alt? where almost none of the fighting takes place. The p47N is faster than the spit14 above 15k, the jug still has options if it wants a high alt fight.
The la7 has a marginally smaller turning circle than the spit14 according to gonzo's charts, even without flaps- oh, but you want to perk that too. :D Essentially a perk plane has an unperked rival that can outrun and out-turn it at standard MA altitudes, why would anyone want to use perks to fly it. I am not convinced that the spit14 vs 109K match up is such a walkover as you believe it is, i believe once the fight goes slow the 109K will dominate the spit14.
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Handling changes to the Lala?
When was this?
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Summary:
"British Spit14s are better than American P-47N. So they should be perked"
.. good argument.
Not.
When you state the argument correctly, it is in fact a good argument.
This is the argument stated correctly:
"When X plane has nearly *every* advantage over dozens LW airplane types, it should probably be perked in the LW MA."
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If we had a Mk XII..... the thing was designed for AH combat alts, perk it. The XIV not so much.
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The la7 has a marginally smaller turning circle than the spit14 according to gonzo's charts, even without flaps- oh, but you want to perk that too. :D Essentially a perk plane has an unperked rival that can outrun and out-turn it at standard MA altitudes, why would anyone want to use perks to fly it?
Hey, as far as I'm concerned, the fact that there is ONE unperked plane that likely should be perked has no bearing on whether or not another plane should be perked. The La-7 is a unique oddity in terms of its capabilities and lack of a perk price, though one must factor in the shortest range in the game.
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"When X plane has nearly *every* advantage over dozens LW airplane types, it should probably be perked in the LW MA."
Which the Spit XIV does not.
Therefore Kweassa's statement is true.
You continue to focus on its paper numbers and ignore its actual performance.
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it has the lowest kd of any of the perked planes this year if you look at what luche looked up
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Which the Spit XIV does not.
Therefore Kweassa's statement is true.
You continue to focus on its paper numbers and ignore its actual performance.
Yet BaldEagle has taken the thing out and proven its performance is not just on paper...the only valid argument I've heard against the SpitXIV is that it wiggles a bit while maneuvering. Probably not enough to save anything from those Hispanos.
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I tried it and it wiggles QUITE a bit. For no particular reason. It is amazingly unstable. I even bounced a 190 who never saw me yet I did not even get to fire as I was so surprised at how the Spit XIV appeared to go in ever direction except the one I was pointing to. It's almost like the controls are celebrating "Opposite Day".
Can someone explain the aerodynamic justification for this squirreliness? Especially given the report posted above about the handling of the real Spit XIV being about the same as the real Spit IX.
How about this: keep the small perk but fix the squirreliness?
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Can someone explain the aerodynamic justification for this squirreliness? Especially given the report posted above about the handling of the real Spit XIV being about the same as the real Spit IX.
It said they had the same turning circle, not the same handling. The answer you seek is pretty obvious: an extra ~1k lbs of weight, mostly in the nose.
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The only justification I can think of is the 5 bladed prop. The extra mass would add to gyroscopic effects, kind of like the rotary engines on WWI biplanes. These effects may be especially hard to deal with when you are used to the airplane's engine turning in the other direction.
But you are correct 715, that report does seem to also imply that the XIV's handling traits are just as gentle as the IX, except on the ground.
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The warning of an approaching high speed stall is less pronounced in the case of the Spitfire Mk XIV.
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Conclusions
23. The all-round performance of the Spitfire XIV is better than the Spitfire IX at all heights. In level flight it is 25-35 m.p.h. faster and has a correspondingly greater rate of climb. Its manoeuvrability is as good as a Spitfire IX. It is easy to fly but should be handled with care when taxying and taking off.
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Yet BaldEagle has taken the thing out and proven its performance is not just on paper...the only valid argument I've heard against the SpitXIV is that it wiggles a bit while maneuvering. Probably not enough to save anything from those Hispanos.
Seriously? Baldeagl scoring 25 victories as proof that the spit14 has none of the mentioned issues, whilst in his own words "never heard a stall buzzer or hit the buffet" . I could do that in the old mossie and never discover it's stall characteristics. It's problems are more than just a small wiggle, take one up in the DA and try and do some turn or stall fighting.
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Yet BaldEagle has taken the thing out and proven its performance is not just on paper
How has he proven that? By getting X number of kills in the LW MA? That's saying nothing about any handling characteristics, especially when flying flying so far away from the edges of performace that he never heard the stall buzzer.
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Seriously? Baldeagl scoring 25 victories as proof that the spit14 has none of the mentioned issues, whilst in his own words "never heard a stall buzzer or hit the buffet" . I could do that in the old mossie and never discover it's stall characteristics. It's problems are more than just a small wiggle, take one up in the DA and try and do some turn or stall fighting.
You don't chase down Typhs, P-51s, or "pace" D9s in a Mossie. Nor do you E-fight with nearly 5K a minute in climb rate to work with....
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You don't chase down Typhs, P-51s, or "pace" D9s in a Mossie. Nor do you E-fight with nearly 5K a minute in climb rate to work with....
Which is, yet again, irrelevant to the max.
One can at least try and understand the irrelevance of a single pilot's anecdotal trial of a certain plane doesn't add up to much against the general consensus formed by numerous other pilots who've been dedicated to the plane for years.
Its like me flying a P-51D and arguing nothing has changed with the flaps.
Like, how sensitive would I be to the degree of performance change in a P-51 with flaps out - a plane I rarely, if ever, fly - and much less fly it well enough to the extent to actually feel a drastic change between the current and previous versions in the first place?
...
Besides, none of this in the first place, again, has any relevance to the matter at hand. You don't perk planes for their individual performance. You perk it on a relative scale, according to the impact it might have in the MA. And whatever impact the Spit14 may have in the MA, it is already done by other planes of its peers, which already have been roaming free in the skies of AH unperked.
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faster spitfires in the main
that sounds like a nightmare
it may turn worse and handle worse, be a bit more unstable
but its still a spitfire
and just like a well flown P38, P51, 109
a well flown Spitfire can be a scary thing to face
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*shrug* I still feel the C-Hog and Spit XIV should be unperked, and the LA-7 perked. The arena's changed a bit since the days when the C-hog and Spit XIV were introduced.
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*shrug* I still feel the C-Hog and Spit XIV should be unperked, and the LA-7 perked. The arena's changed a bit since the days when the C-hog and Spit XIV were introduced.
Yes times have changed.. so why should the La-7 be perked when it's being flown MUCh less than ever before and has a much lower K/D at the same time? Does it mediocre effect on gameplay really has an "unbalancing effect"? ;)
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Yes times have changed.. Does it mediocre effect on gameplay really has an "unbalancing effect"? ;)
Mostly I feel that the fastest low-alt plane with 3-cannons deserves a small perk to deter suicide-pork 'n' augers, as well as to encourage some of the youth to take another plane from time to time, lol... The head-on spray 'n' pray from them may get a bit less annoying if there was a 5-perk cost associated with the LA-7 / 3-cannon version.
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No way should the C-Hog be unperked. F4Us will turn with anything if flown right, and 4 20mms aren't forgiving
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The C-hog is DEAD meat when confronted with a competent pilot co-alt/co-energy by an LA-7 or Spit XVI. Heck, a well-flown Lightning or Ki-84 will toast it.
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Which is, yet again, irrelevant to the max.
Performance is irrelevant?
The anecdote is merely confirmation of what the numbers tell us, that an airframe that goes 361mph at sea level and accelerates really well, and can out-turn every non-perk LW plane in its speed class (save ONE) is damn dangerous and hard to get away from, especially if it has some altitude to convert. And if you can climb at nearly 5K per minute, there is nothing keeping you from having some altitude.
Its like me flying a P-51D and arguing nothing has changed with the flaps.
Like, how sensitive would I be to the degree of performance change in a P-51 with flaps out - a plane I rarely, if ever, fly - and much less fly it well enough to the extent to actually feel a drastic change between the current and previous versions in the first place?
You don't have to "feel" the P-51. Its relative turn performance vs. other planes is documented in hard numbers. Just like the numbers for the SpitXIV.
Besides, none of this in the first place, again, has any relevance to the matter at hand. You don't perk planes for their individual performance. You perk it on a relative scale, according to the impact it might have in the MA. And whatever impact the Spit14 may have in the MA, it is already done by other planes of its peers, which already have been roaming free in the skies of AH unperked.
The current debacle over the P-38J, wherein according to stats reflecting "impact on the MA" the P-38J is an uber-plane that needs to be ENY 5 if not perked, reveals the fundamental problem with judging airplanes on such a basis.
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All I can say is that over the past six months my K/D in the Spit XVI (my primary ride) is 3.69 vs. 7.25 in the XIV. By comparison my 6 mo. K/D in the Tempest is 6.50. The only planes I flew with a higher K/D over that time were the 190A-5 (11.00), 190D-9 (9.00) and P-47D-11 (8.00). The XIV even beats my beloved 190A-8 (my second primary ride at 7.23).
Notice that all of these planes are typically flown fast, rarely if ever into the stall buzzer/buffet range. You don't have to fly into the area of having handling issues to be effective in any aircraft and further, any aircraft can be flown to the point that it suffers from handling issues.
Now I realize that these comparisons aren't nessesarily a good argument for keeping the XIV perked although I think it does show a valid comparison as to the "company it keeps". More importantly, as a long time Spit dweeb, I think that the direct comparison between the XIV and XVI holds great validity. Did I suddenly become twice as good a pilot when I jumped into the XIV? I think not. The machine did a lot to improve my numbers.
Once others got used to it I belive it's numbers would improve overall.
Two last notes on handling. I haven't experienced the nose bounce mentioned in this thread. For the most part the XIV has seemed rock steady as a gunnery platform and I suspect it's a trim issue. Second, you do have to maintain rudder on landing as it's got a heavy torque roll at landing speeds which is expected given the engine and airframe.
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Do you use Combat Trim or do you constantly fiddle with the trim manually?
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Do you use Combat Trim or do you constantly fiddle with the trim manually?
In general I use combat trim but I always turn it off at very high or very low speeds then trim out manually if I feel I need to.
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You don't chase down Typhs, P-51s, or "pace" D9s in a Mossie. Nor do you E-fight with nearly 5K a minute in climb rate to work with....
You have completely missed the point i was attempting to make- how will someone know how a plane performs with 25 kills, flown in such a conservative manner, that the only time the stall horn or buffet was heard was on landing. If the old mossie was flow in the exact same manner, one would never encouter it's dreadful stall charcteristics and as far as they were aware had none.
A mossie with an alt advantage just as the spit14 requires one, can run down all of the aircraft mentioned in your quote,the mossie has good acceleration in a dive. As mentioned before, the only way a spit14 could keep pace the d9 was if it wasn't using WEP, it's generally accepted that when comparisions regarding speed is made, both aircraft are using WEP, not one.
The D9 is about 15 mph faster than the spit14, almost all of the midwar aircraft are about 15mph slower than the spit14, most of the aircraft found in LW arena have the ability to "pace" the spit14. With WEP off the spit14 is limted to a not so stellar 330mph, almost all aircraft bar the early planes are within 15mph, the n1k is only 4mph slower. When the d9 WEP runs out it has to worry about the spit14, when the spit14 WEP runs out it has to worry about the whole arena.
Bnz you have misunderstood lusches post too, performance by numbers does not give a complete representation of an aircraft, turn circles for instance give you some numbers but it doesn't tell you how effective the aircraft is in a turn fight for instance:
-The mossie has poor figures but can turn fight with a lot of planes because it is incredibly stable all the way up to the stall, the pilot can push it to the edge of it's envelope with ease.
-The old 109s in contrast could in theory outturn many fighters but were effectively unable to turnfight aircraft that it could in theory. This was because as the 109 approched the edge of it's envelope it would wobble all over place, forcing it out of the turn.
Baldeagl, comparing kd is next to useless- for instance, according to yours the 190a5 needs perking because it has a kd 50% greater than the spit14. I could post my own and make some aircraft look fantastic and others very poor.
My apologies for the wall of text. :lol
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A mossie with an alt advantage just as the spit14 requires one, can run down all of the aircraft mentioned in your quote,the mossie has good acceleration in a dive. As mentioned before, the only way a spit14 could keep pace the d9 was if it wasn't using WEP, it's generally accepted that when comparisions regarding speed is made, both aircraft are using WEP, not one.
The F4F and P-40B can also dive well to catch things. However, you know as well as I do that when you have a much slower, poorer accelerating craft, you must manage your energy extremely well against a hotter craft flown by a pilot who knows what they are doing defensively. Too fast and you overshoot, dump too much energy to stay with them in their maneuvers and they accelerate away. However, the Spits retain energy with the best of them and very little will out-accelerate a SpitXIV, and everything in the MA is at best a few MPH faster, except the LA7s. So ones chances of escaping an XIV with the E advantage are slim indeed.
Oh, BTW, that Batfink can make the Mossie behave like an F-22 is interesting, hard to deal with, and obviously the product of alot of practice. I also think its evidence that the flight model is not perfect.:D
The D9 is about 15 mph faster than the spit14, almost all of the midwar aircraft are about 15mph slower than the spit14, most of the aircraft found in LW arena have the ability to "pace" the spit14.
Because of short legs, the D9 must usually carry a drop-tank, the rail for which slows top speed on the deck down to 369mph.
361mph is damned fast. This is nearly 20mph faster than any P-38 or P-47D, faster than the Yak9u, faster than than the P-51B and a paltry few mph slower than the P-51D, P-47N, and 109 K-4.
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levi in a d3a could wipe 1/2 an arena....does that mean the d3a deserves a perk?
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OK. I just did comparisons at DocGonzo's to the Bf 109K-4, F4U-4, FW 190D-9, La7, Mosquito, P-47N, P-51D, Tempest and Yak9-U (generally recognized as the fatest planes in the arenas).
The results are:
Bf 109K-4: Holds a speed advantage to 14K then again from 20-25K. Holds the speed advantage to 25K with WEP. Deck speed advantage of 8 mph (7 mph WEP... both these are negligable). Also holds edge in WEP climb rate and lethality. Acceleration and turn rate go to the XIV.
F4U-4: Speed advantage to 10K reduced to 4K with WEP. Deck speed advantage 20mph reduced to 12 mph WEP. XIV holds climb, acceleration, lethality and turn advantages except with flaps deployed.
FW 190D-9: Speed advantage to 12K reduced to 8K with WEP. Deck speed advantage of 15 mph reduced to 14 mph WEP. XIV holds climb, acceleration, turn rate and lethality advantages.
La7: Speed advantage to 14K reduced to 8K WEP. Deck speed advantage of 28 mph reduced to 20 mph WEP. Also holds turn and low-end acceleration advantages. Climb rate and lethality to the XIV.
Mosquito: Generally 10 mph slower than the XIV on the deck it's only advantages are in flap turn rate and lethality.
P-47N: Speed advantage to 3K then again over 15K. 3 mph slower than the XIV on the deck. Climb rate, acceleration, turn rate and lethality to the XIV.
P-51D: Speed advantage to 17K reduced to 8K with WEP. Deck speed advantage of 24 mph reduced to 4 mph with WEP. Climb, acceleration, turning and lethality to the XIV.
Tempest: Speed advantage to 24K. Advantage to 10K with WEP then again from 15K-18K. 40 mph speed advantage on the deck. The Temp also climbs better to 7K with WEP off and holds low-end acceleration and lethality advantages. WEP climb rate and turn rate to the XIV.
Yak9-U: Speed advantage to 20K. Deck speed advantage of 27 mph reduced to minus 3 mph with WEP. Climb, acceleration, turn and lethality to the XIV.
In summary, the 109K-4, La7 and Tempest are the only adversaries among the high speed fighters that match up well against the Spit XIV and each and every one of these is generally recognized as among the most formidable opponents in the arenas. Further, one of them carries a 50+ perk price. The only reason the K-4 isn't perked is because people have trouble hitting with the Spud gun combined with it's short clip and by this analysis it appears that the La-7 should be perked mildly.
Generally, by 8K even the fastest planes have lost their speed advantage. You can't tell me that people don't climb to 8K in the arenas. Given even a mild altitude advantage the XIV will run down it's faster opponents on the deck and once caught there is no escape.
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The only reason the K-4 isn't perked is because people have trouble hitting with the Spud gun combined with it's short clip
and the forward view, and the torque, and the heavy controls in a dive, and the short range... :devil
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Why is that people want to argue the intangibles?
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BaldEagl,
The Mossie will run a Spit XIV down in a dive. I've done it. And I've gained separation from La-7s in a dive, enough for me to turn on and kill them.
The Spit XIV should be a bit draggier than the earlier Spits due to larger radiators. I don't know if that is modeled.
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Why is that people want to argue the intangibles?
Here is an intangible for you --
I took the XIV up last night. 5 kills (+1 proxy) vs. 2 losses.
If I can get kills in it, it probably needs a perk. :o
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Here is an intangible for you --
I took the XIV up last night. 5 kills (+1 proxy) vs. 2 losses.
If I can get kills in it, it probably needs a perk. :o
I always wonder if threads like this about aircraft that rarely get used create a noticeable bump in its usage for a short time.
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I always wonder if threads like this about aircraft that rarely get used create a noticeable bump in its usage for a short time.
It did in this case, if only a little. I don't know that I had ever taken one up before.
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The F4F and P-40B can also dive well to catch things. However, you know as well as I do that when you have a much slower, poorer accelerating craft, you must manage your energy extremely well against a hotter craft flown by a pilot who knows what they are doing defensively. Too fast and you overshoot, dump too much energy to stay with them in their maneuvers and they accelerate away. However, the Spits retain energy with the best of them and very little will out-accelerate a SpitXIV, and everything in the MA is at best a few MPH faster, except the LA7s. So ones chances of escaping an XIV with the E advantage are slim indeed.
Yes it is more difficult i agree, but can be done. Have you considered there are several aircraft that are within ~15mph slower than the spit14 that have decent acceleration and can out turn it such as the spit XVI. The la7 can run it down and out-turn it, understandbly very few people are willing to spend perks on such a plane.
Because of short legs, the D9 must usually carry a drop-tank, the rail for which slows top speed on the deck down to 369mph.
Both of their endurances suck, the D9 fuel endurance is about 5 mins better than a spit14 with a drop tank (no drag i believe) and very similar after 5 mins WEP because the spit14 drinks like a fish. :)
361mph is damned fast. This is nearly 20mph faster than any P-38 or P-47D, faster than the Yak9u, faster than than the P-51B and a paltry few mph slower than the P-51D, P-47N, and 109 K-4.
According to gonzo's stats the spit14 is only 16mph & 17mph faster than the 38L or D40, closer to the 15mph advantage the d9 has over the spit14 than 20mph. Yes the spit14 is faster than the p51B and yak9u (which has no WEP), but is less than speed advantage the p51D, p47N and 109K have over the spit14. Your use of paltry gives a false impression that the spit14 has a significant speed advantage over the p51B and yak9u, which it doesn't.
Bald, the mossie is one of the fastest planes in AH? I wish! :)
Anyway i thought i would post a film of the spit14 handling at low speed, best viewed with trails. What was peculiar in this film was that around 1.20 i was nose down and when i applied throttle it led to a horrendous spin. This was no ordinary spin because my cockpit was shaking all over as if the plane had compressed (not in film) and i had completely no control response at all- elevator, ailerons and rudder had no effect, i just continued spinning. upon reflection i should have cut throttle, but it was so strange with my cockpit shaking all over i had no idea what was happening.
http://www.4shared.com/file/79041073/55d3c867/spit14stall.html (http://www.4shared.com/file/79041073/55d3c867/spit14stall.html)
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I always wonder if threads like this about aircraft that rarely get used create a noticeable bump in its usage for a short time.
I remember it was that way with the Ta512H about 1 year ago.
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Well, the only fact that seems indisputable right now is that the Spit 14 is hardly ever used. Why people think that is the case ranges from "People don't know how good it is." to "It is nothing special with multiple unperked aircraft being better choices." Which one is more accurate can only really be determined by unperking it, but keeping the option of reperking it if it is out of control.
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I think the XIV is porked like the Mossie was, the fact that it is rarely used means that the issue is rarely highlighted.
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The spit14 prop spins the other way from most planes in the game. That means the torque is reversed. That means you turn better to the right and if you have wing tanks you should drain the RIGHT tank first.
I noticed last night while leaving fuel selection on "auto" that it totally drained the left tank before the right.
Making the handling WORSE. I was thinking that I was fishtailing a bit, that even coming out of a loop was hard to manage without spinning into a tailslide, but then I realized as I was RTB (I got myself shot up a bit) that the auto fuel select was switching from an almost empty left tank to a full right tank.
So, if you DO like the spit14, try manually choosing your right tank first. After, that is, your DT is gone.
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I noticed last night while leaving fuel selection on "auto" that it totally drained the left tank before the right.
Making the handling WORSE. I was thinking that I was fishtailing a bit, that even coming out of a loop was hard to manage without spinning into a tailslide, but then I realized as I was RTB (I got myself shot up a bit) that the auto fuel select was switching from an almost empty left tank to a full right tank.
I didn't notice that and I've been watching he tanks pretty closely as there's not a lot of extra fuel in the XIV. I'll pay closer attention still and see if that's the case.
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Holy cow, what's going on here then, :uhoh