Spit XIV

[BnZs]

Which is, yet again, irrelevant to the max.

Performance is irrelevant?

The anecdote is merely confirmation of what the numbers tell us, that an airframe that goes 361mph at sea level and accelerates really well, and can out-turn every non-perk LW plane in its speed class (save ONE) is damn dangerous and hard to get away from, especially if it has some altitude to convert. And if you can climb at nearly 5K per minute, there is nothing keeping you from having some altitude.

Its like me flying a P-51D and arguing nothing has changed with the flaps.

Like, how sensitive would I be to the degree of performance change in a P-51 with flaps out - a plane I rarely, if ever, fly - and much less fly it well enough to the extent to actually feel a drastic change between the current and previous versions in the first place?

You don't have to "feel" the P-51. Its relative turn performance vs. other planes is documented in hard numbers. Just like the numbers for the SpitXIV.

Besides, none of this in the first place, again, has any relevance to the matter at hand. You don't perk planes for their individual performance. You perk it on a relative scale, according to the impact it might have in the MA. And whatever impact the Spit14 may have in the MA, it is already done by other planes of its peers, which already have been roaming free in the skies of AH unperked.

The current debacle over the P-38J, wherein according to stats reflecting "impact on the MA" the P-38J is an uber-plane that needs to be ENY 5 if not perked, reveals the fundamental problem with judging airplanes on such a basis.

[BaldEagl]

All I can say is that over the past six months my K/D in the Spit XVI (my primary ride) is 3.69 vs. 7.25 in the XIV.  By comparison my 6 mo. K/D in the Tempest is 6.50.  The only planes I flew with a higher K/D over that time were the 190A-5 (11.00), 190D-9 (9.00) and P-47D-11 (8.00).  The XIV even beats my beloved 190A-8 (my second primary ride at 7.23).

Notice that all of these planes are typically flown fast, rarely if ever into the stall buzzer/buffet range.  You don't have to fly into the area of having handling issues to be effective in any aircraft and further, any aircraft can be flown to the point that it suffers from handling issues.

Now I realize that these comparisons aren't nessesarily a good argument for keeping the XIV perked although I think it does show a valid comparison as to the "company it keeps".  More importantly, as a long time Spit dweeb, I think that the direct comparison between the XIV and XVI holds great validity.  Did I suddenly become twice as good a pilot when I jumped into the XIV?  I think not.  The machine did a lot to improve my numbers.

Once others got used to it I belive it's numbers would improve overall.

Two last notes on handling.  I haven't experienced the nose bounce mentioned in this thread.  For the most part the XIV has seemed rock steady as a gunnery platform and I suspect it's a trim issue.  Second, you do have to maintain rudder on landing as it's got a heavy torque roll at landing speeds which is expected given the engine and airframe.

[715]

Do you use Combat Trim or do you constantly fiddle with the trim manually?

[BaldEagl]

Do you use Combat Trim or do you constantly fiddle with the trim manually?

In general I use combat trim but I always turn it off at very high or very low speeds then trim out manually if I feel I need to.

[thrila]

You don't chase down Typhs, P-51s, or "pace" D9s in a Mossie. Nor do you E-fight with nearly 5K a minute in climb rate to work with....

You have completely missed the point i was attempting to make- how will someone know how a plane performs with 25 kills, flown in such a conservative manner, that the only time the stall horn or buffet was heard was on landing.  If the old mossie was flow in the exact same manner, one would never encouter it's dreadful stall charcteristics and as far as they were aware had none.

A mossie with an alt advantage just as the spit14 requires one, can run down all of the aircraft mentioned in your quote,the mossie has good acceleration in a dive.  As mentioned before, the only way a spit14 could keep pace the d9 was if it wasn't using WEP, it's generally accepted that when comparisions regarding speed is made, both aircraft are using WEP, not one. 

The D9 is about 15 mph faster than the spit14, almost all of the midwar aircraft are about 15mph slower than the spit14, most of the aircraft found in LW arena have the ability to "pace" the spit14.  With WEP off the spit14 is limted to a not so stellar 330mph, almost all aircraft bar the early planes are within 15mph, the n1k is only 4mph slower.  When the d9 WEP runs out it has to worry about the spit14, when the spit14 WEP runs out it has to worry about the whole arena.

Bnz you have misunderstood lusches post too, performance by numbers does not give a complete representation of an aircraft, turn circles for instance give you some numbers but it doesn't tell you how effective the aircraft is in a turn fight for instance:

-The mossie has poor figures but can turn fight with a lot of planes because it is incredibly stable all the way up to the stall, the pilot can push it to the edge of it's envelope with ease.

-The old 109s in contrast could in theory outturn many fighters but were effectively unable to turnfight aircraft that it could in theory. This was because as the 109 approched the edge of it's envelope it would wobble all over place, forcing it out of the turn.

Baldeagl, comparing kd is next to useless- for instance, according to yours the 190a5 needs perking because it has a kd 50% greater than the spit14. I could post my own and make some aircraft look fantastic and others very poor.

My apologies for the wall of text.

[BnZs]

A mossie with an alt advantage just as the spit14 requires one, can run down all of the aircraft mentioned in your quote,the mossie has good acceleration in a dive.  As mentioned before, the only way a spit14 could keep pace the d9 was if it wasn't using WEP, it's generally accepted that when comparisions regarding speed is made, both aircraft are using WEP, not one. 

The F4F and P-40B can also dive well to catch things. However, you know as well as I do that when you have a much slower, poorer accelerating craft, you must manage your energy extremely well against a hotter craft flown by a pilot who knows what they are doing defensively. Too fast and you overshoot, dump too much energy to stay with them in their maneuvers and they accelerate away. However, the Spits retain energy with the best of them and very little will out-accelerate a SpitXIV, and everything in the MA is at best a few MPH faster, except the LA7s. So ones chances of escaping an XIV with the E advantage are slim indeed.

Oh, BTW, that Batfink can make the Mossie behave like an F-22 is interesting, hard to deal with, and obviously the product of alot of practice. I also think its evidence that the flight model is not perfect.

The D9 is about 15 mph faster than the spit14, almost all of the midwar aircraft are about 15mph slower than the spit14, most of the aircraft found in LW arena have the ability to "pace" the spit14. 

Because of short legs, the D9 must usually carry a drop-tank, the rail for which slows top speed on the deck down to 369mph.

361mph is damned fast. This is nearly 20mph faster than any P-38 or P-47D, faster than the Yak9u, faster than than the P-51B and a paltry few mph slower than the P-51D, P-47N, and 109 K-4.

[Bronk]

levi in a d3a could wipe 1/2 an arena....does that mean the d3a deserves a perk?

[BaldEagl]

OK.  I just did comparisons at DocGonzo's to the Bf 109K-4, F4U-4, FW 190D-9, La7, Mosquito, P-47N, P-51D, Tempest and Yak9-U (generally recognized as the fatest planes in the arenas).

The results are:

Bf 109K-4:  Holds a speed advantage to 14K then again from 20-25K.  Holds the speed advantage to 25K with WEP.  Deck speed advantage of 8 mph (7 mph WEP... both these are negligable).  Also holds edge in WEP climb rate and lethality.  Acceleration and turn rate go to the XIV.

F4U-4:  Speed advantage to 10K reduced to 4K with WEP.  Deck speed advantage 20mph reduced to 12 mph WEP.  XIV holds climb, acceleration, lethality and turn advantages except with flaps deployed.

FW 190D-9:  Speed advantage to 12K reduced to 8K with WEP.  Deck speed advantage of 15 mph reduced to 14 mph WEP.  XIV holds climb, acceleration, turn rate and lethality advantages.

La7:  Speed advantage to 14K reduced to 8K WEP.  Deck speed advantage of 28 mph reduced to 20 mph WEP.  Also holds turn and low-end acceleration advantages.  Climb rate and lethality to the XIV.

Mosquito:  Generally 10 mph slower than the XIV on the deck it's only advantages are in flap turn rate and lethality.

P-47N:  Speed advantage to 3K then again over 15K.  3 mph slower than the XIV on the deck.  Climb rate, acceleration, turn rate and lethality to the XIV.

P-51D:  Speed advantage to 17K reduced to 8K with WEP.  Deck speed advantage of 24 mph reduced to 4 mph with WEP.  Climb, acceleration, turning and lethality to the XIV.

Tempest:  Speed advantage to 24K.  Advantage to 10K with WEP then again from 15K-18K.  40 mph speed advantage on the deck.  The Temp also climbs better to 7K with WEP off and holds low-end acceleration and lethality advantages.  WEP climb rate and turn rate to the XIV.

Yak9-U:  Speed advantage to 20K.  Deck speed advantage of 27 mph reduced to minus 3 mph with WEP.  Climb, acceleration, turn and lethality to the XIV.

In summary, the 109K-4, La7 and Tempest are the only adversaries among the high speed fighters that match up well against the Spit XIV and each and every one of these is generally recognized as among the most formidable opponents in the arenas.  Further, one of them carries a 50+ perk price.  The only reason the K-4 isn't perked is because people have trouble hitting with the Spud gun combined with it's short clip and by this analysis it appears that the La-7 should be perked mildly.

Generally, by 8K even the fastest planes have lost their speed advantage. You can't tell me that people don't climb to 8K in the arenas.  Given even a mild altitude advantage the XIV will run down it's faster opponents on the deck and once caught there is no escape. 

[Anaxogoras]

The only reason the K-4 isn't perked is because people have trouble hitting with the Spud gun combined with it's short clip

and the forward view, and the torque, and the heavy controls in a dive, and the short range...

[Bronk]

Why is that people want to argue the intangibles?

[Karnak]

BaldEagl,

The Mossie will run a Spit XIV down in a dive.  I've done it.  And I've gained separation from La-7s in a dive, enough for me to turn on and kill them.

The Spit XIV should be a bit draggier  than the earlier Spits due to larger radiators.  I don't know if that is modeled.

[E25280]

Why is that people want to argue the intangibles?

Here is an intangible for you --

I took the XIV up last night. 5 kills (+1 proxy) vs. 2 losses.

If I can get kills in it, it probably needs a perk.   

[Karnak]

Here is an intangible for you --

I took the XIV up last night. 5 kills (+1 proxy) vs. 2 losses.

If I can get kills in it, it probably needs a perk.   

I always wonder if threads like this about aircraft that rarely get used create a noticeable bump in its usage for a short time.

[E25280]

I always wonder if threads like this about aircraft that rarely get used create a noticeable bump in its usage for a short time.

It did in this case, if only a little.  I don't know that I had ever taken one up before.

[thrila]

The F4F and P-40B can also dive well to catch things. However, you know as well as I do that when you have a much slower, poorer accelerating craft, you must manage your energy extremely well against a hotter craft flown by a pilot who knows what they are doing defensively. Too fast and you overshoot, dump too much energy to stay with them in their maneuvers and they accelerate away. However, the Spits retain energy with the best of them and very little will out-accelerate a SpitXIV, and everything in the MA is at best a few MPH faster, except the LA7s. So ones chances of escaping an XIV with the E advantage are slim indeed. 

Yes it is more difficult i agree, but can be done.  Have you considered there are several aircraft that are within ~15mph slower than the spit14 that have decent acceleration and can out turn it such as the spit XVI. The la7 can run it down and out-turn it, understandbly very few people are willing to spend perks on such a plane.

Because of short legs, the D9 must usually carry a drop-tank, the rail for which slows top speed on the deck down to 369mph.

Both of their endurances suck, the D9 fuel endurance is about 5 mins better than a spit14 with a drop tank (no drag i believe) and very similar after 5 mins WEP because the spit14 drinks like a fish.

361mph is damned fast. This is nearly 20mph faster than any P-38 or P-47D, faster than the Yak9u, faster than than the P-51B and a paltry few mph slower than the P-51D, P-47N, and 109 K-4.

According to gonzo's stats the spit14 is only 16mph & 17mph faster than the 38L or D40, closer to the 15mph advantage the d9 has over the spit14 than 20mph.  Yes the spit14 is faster than the p51B and yak9u (which has no WEP), but is less than speed advantage the p51D, p47N and 109K have over the spit14.  Your use of paltry gives a false impression that the spit14 has a significant speed advantage over the p51B and yak9u, which it doesn't.


Bald, the mossie is one of the fastest planes in AH?  I wish!


Anyway i thought i would post a film of the spit14 handling at low speed, best viewed with trails.  What was peculiar in this film was that around 1.20 i was nose down  and when i applied throttle it led to a horrendous spin.  This was no ordinary spin because my cockpit was shaking all over as if the plane had compressed (not in film) and i had completely no control response at all- elevator, ailerons and rudder had no effect, i just continued spinning.  upon reflection i should have cut throttle, but it was so strange with my cockpit shaking all over i had no idea what was happening.

http://www.4shared.com/file/79041073/55d3c867/spit14stall.html