Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: df54 on January 11, 2009, 06:03:25 PM
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does someone know a reliable method for determining the minimum
manouvering speed for ah aircraft.
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um 150 and above for american airplanes exept fm2 without flaps
spits i would say 120
germans same as american planes exept for the f and e of the 109
japs 100 for zeros there others i would say 140
me262 safety stay about 400
me 163 150
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does someone know a reliable method for determining the minimum
manouvering speed for ah aircraft.
your question is kind of open ended and left for interpetation........
I would say to find out the extreme limit of flying your plane type to the extreme minimal maneuvering speed you would have to find out the stalling speed..ie.meaning to where you can not maintain an atitude of pointing the nose above the horizon.....
many of us here fly these cartoon planes to the EXTREME EDGE...especially when in a Knife fight. It is left up to each individual person to find out exactly how far they are capable of PUSHING a particular plane type and still maintain controlled flight.......or step across that edge of the flight envelope and ride the wave and gain control before you lose it all..control that is....
I am BRAIN FRIED FROM TOO MUCK WORK..I am sure one of the engineers will soon post here to give a more academic answer...
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um 150 and above for american airplanes exept fm2 without flaps
I disagree, I can push a Hog around at speeds well under 80 IAS......... and for 10 minutes or longer.......( waiting patiently for the "Wonder Flaps" lobbier's ROFL )
let me add to my list,
: A C202, a F6f5, a P51B, a SBD, D3A, and quiet a few others....all not at or near 80 ias.but some a little higher 90/100 ias , and some lower......
as for flying a F4U-1.there is film footage of it manuevering well under 45 IAS and not augering...... ( 3rd edit: I am going to backpedal a lil bit here. Although the plane in the film mentioned is well below its absolute minimum level flight speed, the theory of momentum and inertia is what the plie-it & plane is using since it's speed has already dropped well below the minimal limit...it still has momentum and the laws of inertia so that the air moving across the controls allows one to still get effective use at of the Rudder, Ailerons, elevator to make it perform when one thinks it would be impossible......)
2nd edit: also, I am not campaigning or say this is how one should fly. I am under the thought of , a person should use their plane type in the limits of the planes best Flight envelope, ie.being Instantaneous turn speed/rate to sustained turn speed/rate....and at the same time I encourage everyone to find the extreme limits on each end of the flight envelope........you will not know what you are capable of unless you push it just as far as you can......
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accelerated stall speed for a given configuration=square root of Gs X 1 G stall speed for that configuration.
So, if an airplane stalls at 100mph at 1 G in a given configuration, then at 4 Gs it would stall at 200mph.
However, keep in mind that the square root of zero is zero and that zero times a number is zero....
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I disagree, I can push a Hog around at speeds well under 80 IAS......... and for 10 minutes or longer.......( waiting patiently for the "Wonder Flaps" lobbier's ROFL )
let me add to my list,
: A C202, a F6f5, a P51B, a SBD, D3A, and quiet a few others....all not at or near 80 ias.but some a little higher 90/100 ias , and some lower......
as for flying a F4U-1.there is film footage of it manuevering well under 45 IAS and not augering...... ( 3rd edit: I am going to backpedal a lil bit here. Although the plane in the film mentioned is well below its absolute minimum level flight speed, the theory of momentum and inertia is what the plie-it & plane is using since it's speed has already dropped well below the minimal limit...it still has momentum and the laws of inertia so that the air moving across the controls allows one to still get effective use at of the Rudder, Ailerons, elevator to make it perform when one thinks it would be impossible......)
2nd edit: also, I am not campaigning or say this is how one should fly. I am under the thought of , a person should use their plane type in the limits of the planes best Flight envelope, ie.being Instantaneous turn speed/rate to sustained turn speed/rate....and at the same time I encourage everyone to find the extreme limits on each end of the flight envelope........you will not know what you are capable of unless you push it just as far as you can......
did you read without flaps
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did you read without flaps
did you read where I said
your question is kind of open ended and left for interpetation........
he said nothing regarding with or without flap usage.......
oh , yes I see you are refering to where I quoted you, yes I read that ....it just didn't register at the time....pardon me
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I have footage of a P-51B flying at 50 KIAS in controlled flight.
Minimum manuerving speed is also dependent on the gross takeoff weight.
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does someone know a reliable method for determining the minimum
manouvering speed for ah aircraft.
the key words in the question are " manouvering speed "
Maneuvering Speed or Va is the indicated airspeed at which an aircraft exceeds it's load limit acceleration. The mass or weight and force or lift present on the aircraft the moment AOA is exceeded will result in one of two things, One), result in a stalled wing condition if the speed is blow Va, or two), the wings may depart from the aircraft at airspeed above Va.
This is why your flight instructor has you slow to Va prior to entering an accelerated stall.
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yes "Ground School - Theory of Flight", along with Wikpedia and Google search is very informative for most
if someone is going to post from a cut and paste, it is always helpful to show them where the post or quoted text came from
I have noticed a string of posted replys that have been "Cut/ Copy & Paste" without any credit of where the True TEXT came from
not refering to this Posted Topic alone, there have been quiet several different topics in the Help & Training forum lately where people are copying and pasting replys without showing the original credit or URL of where the info came from. I am simply asking that give credit to where it is due....it would be much appreciated from the whole community
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I would assume the OP wants to know what the minimum speed is for effective BFM (Basic Fighter Maneuvers).
For me (IIRC, I got this directly from Robert Shaw's classic Fighter Combat) the key speed to keep in mind is that which allows you to complete a pure vertical maneuver.
Ideally, you want to be able to pull the nose up all the way into a half loop and be able to finish off with a half roll at the top (Modern Immelmann maneuver).
This speed will allow you to do any of the Basic Fighter Maneuvers and ,thus, puts you in a good position for defense.
Now, what speed is that exactly? It gets a little tricky at this point because the speed required to do a vertical maneuver can be dependent on the technique used to accomplish it.
A maximum G Immelmann requires more speed at entry than an airshow quality Immelman.
Another variable in the equation is altitude. With 15,000 feet below you, its easy to convert altitude for speed. I'll get slower than my minimum vertical maneuver speed up high because I know I can always use nose low maneuvering to build speed. On the deck every knot below maximum G maneuvering speed is a nail in the coffin.
How do I track this speed? For starters I fly only one airplane type, the P38. I don't ever look at the instrument panel much less the airspeed indicator. It has to become a matter of judging the wind noise, an instinctive "feel". In a real airplane it is easy to tell how fast you are going, especially in a WWII era airplane. On a computer its a bit harder. Thats why I recommend using a headset to fly and adjusting the engine sounds down to a low level and using wind noise as your primary speed indication.
Learning one plane type really well before swapping to another is always a good idea as well.
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I don't really know if I'm answering this right, but I go into a controlled maneuver all the time at close to 25 IAS or so, all the time. Considering a contolled stall in a maneuver.
But, most of the time the minumum maneuver speed is usually dictated by what and how I am fighting. :salute
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yes "Ground School - Theory of Flight", along with Wikpedia and Google search is very informative for most
if someone is going to post from a cut and paste, it is always helpful to show them where the post or quoted text came from
I have noticed a string of posted replys that have been "Cut/ Copy & Paste" without any credit of where the True TEXT came from
not refering to this Posted Topic alone, there have been quiet several different topics in the Help & Training forum lately where people are copying and pasting replys without showing the original credit or URL of where the info came from. I am simply asking that give credit to where it is due....it would be much appreciated from the whole community
Not sure if this was directed to me, however, It's a cut and past form my training material hand outs to my students. I've been a CFII for the last 30 years.
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I rather doubt the OP is interested in structural maneuvering speed (Va).
In his original post he uses the word minimum which precludes Va (as it is a maximum speed)
In addition, I doubt he is much worried about breaking parts off his AH airplane.
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I had the same take Dawger. I'm not seeing how knowing Va would be useful as it applies to AH.
When df54 posts a question it usually reminds me of an exam where and essay is required for the answer. I agree with TC, this one is a bit open ended.
edit...spelling
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Its not even useful in real world airplanes any more. American Flight 587 proved that Va is somewhat of a myth.
Most every Transport category aircraft now has a warning in the AFM regarding rapid movement of controls and the possibility for structural failure below Va.
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thank you dawger your response was excellent and was the information i was seeking(i dont have shaw's book-wasn't he also the grouchy old fart in Jaws).
As to murdr's response i dont see the question as being open ended
and certaintly don't expect a lengthly response. Also i don't appreciate
the sarcasm.
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I had the same take Dawger. I'm not seeing how knowing Va would be useful as it applies to AH.
When df54 posts a question it usually reminds me of an exam where and essay is required for the answer. I agree with TC, this one is a bit open ended.
edit...spelling
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No offense intended, and I wasn't being sarcastic. You ask good questions that bring on good discussions. It often takes more than a few words to answer them, that's just an observation, not a critique. I don't see the harm in asking for clearification on the question being asked.
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thank you dawger your response was excellent and was the information i was seeking(i dont have shaw's book-wasn't he also the grouchy old fart in Jaws).
As to murdr's response i dont see the question as being open ended
and certaintly don't expect a lengthly response. Also i don't appreciate
the sarcasm.
http://www.amazon.com/Fighter-Combat-Tactics-Maneuvering-New/dp/0870210599
There is a link to Shaw's book. Be forewarned, it is a textbook although the subject is darn interesting if you are a student of air combat. Lots of it doesn't apply to games but most of it does. Bob Shaw played Warbirds once upon a time.
I used much of his stuff (with permission of course) in all of the manuals I wrote years ago.
Don't expect a step by step guide but his guidance is the source material for everything else out there. I can't think of anything useful in game that he doesn't cover but you really have to read it, try to visualize it, fly it in a 1 v 1 controlled situation and then read it again. Rinse and Repeat hundreds of times.
I remember trying to wrap my head around lag displacement rolls (back then maybe 20 guys knew what they were by name). It took me a week of reading, hand-flying, dueling and reading again. And then the light went on. That was the maneuver that really made me a true believer in the value of the book.
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i assumed that the question was exclusively related to effective acm.
If i interpreted your response as sarcasm you have my sincere and heartfelt apology. Sometimes its not what is said ,its what is implied
that causes misunderstandings.
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A while back Murdr corrected me on a few things about min speed in a k4. Well I didnt believe him. So I did a few tests for myself.
By god if he wast right... :aok
First, one should actually practice this in the plane you want to fly. I have 4 or 5 planes that I know the absolute min airspeed I can stay in the air at ..among other things...like flaps, climb etc.
As for maneuver speed I guarentee you will be amazed at how slow you can actually fly if you do it right.
First, fly strait reducing throttle until flaps can come out. Fly slower with all flaps...keep flying slower and slower attempting to maintain a constant airspeed. At some point you will NOT BE able to maintian level flight. Then you will KNOW for sure in that particlular plane.
Then try some maneuvers at the min speed....This will show you further how much maneuver you can do.
After this, practice maneuvering at this speed withoug crashing....LOL
Oh man will you be surprised.
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i assumed that the question was exclusively related to effective acm.
Sometimes its not what is said ,its what is implied
that causes misunderstandings.
First, one should actually practice this in the plane you want to fly. I have 4 or 5 planes that I know the absolute min airspeed I can stay in the air at ..among other things...like flaps, climb etc.
As for maneuver speed I guarentee you will be amazed at how slow you can actually fly if you do it right.
First, fly strait reducing throttle until flaps can come out. Fly slower with all flaps...keep flying slower and slower attempting to maintain a constant airspeed. At some point you will NOT BE able to maintian level flight. Then you will KNOW for sure in that particlular plane.
Then try some maneuvers at the min speed....This will show you further how much maneuver you can do.
After this, practice maneuvering at this speed withoug crashing....LOL
Oh man will you be surprised.
quoting df54 1st, then Agent...............shows why I originally posted that your question was open ended and left for interpetation...
on the same note, I agree completely with Dawger, as every Trainer from every flight sim from old to new, that has any ioda of compentency would teach a pupil to always keep enough speed to be able to go vertical at any given moment! adding that if you know your plane well enough it is very possible to take it nose vertical and perform a 1/2 loop or hi - yoyo at speeds quite low and under 100 kias.....
I still advocate that this is for only EXTREME circumstances/battles one might find themselves in. it is not for every fight you encounter. But if you do not know how far you can push your planes abilities or your ability, then the 1st to make a mistake will be the one in the tower, and he who knows his plane and abilities better will be the victor everytime....
note to splitatom - the pardon me should have had a "my apologies" behind it .....I hit the wrong key and justnow saw it was missing.... :salute
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One of the things my CO (Twinboom) does when he's working with us fighter wannabies in the squad is we go into the DA, and go off and find a quite spot. We take off in what ever plane you want to work on, just barely get wheels up, and play follow the leader through the trees. He flys as slow as he can, and you can't over shoot him. The whole idea is to teach you to get down and dirty and flop around feet off the ground "flying" your plane. It certainly teaches you the lower limits of a plane, as well as how to work your controls to get the most out of your plane. Its a great exercise !
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One of the things my CO (Twinboom) does when he's working with us fighter wannabies in the squad is we go into the DA, and go off and find a quite spot. We take off in what ever plane you want to work on, just barely get wheels up, and play follow the leader through the trees. He flys as slow as he can, and you can't over shoot him. The whole idea is to teach you to get down and dirty and flop around feet off the ground "flying" your plane. It certainly teaches you the lower limits of a plane, as well as how to work your controls to get the most out of your plane. Its a great exercise !
Then take this a step further and figure out how slow you can go and still make an immelman. Figure out how close to the ground you can be and still make a Split-S at various speeds. All good things to know about your chosen ride.
Regards,
Hammer
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Once below vertical maneuvering speed you are limiting your options. If you are below vertical maneuvering speed without any altitude to convert to speed then you are out of options, except for one classic. And it is a great option.
You can still type on 200 "Nice Pick, you alt monkey"
This is the origin of the entire "leave my 1 v 1 alone" silliness. Guys who expect to fly down to the last knot of airspeed and then get a free pass to build energy back up before the next attacker.
Ultra slow maneuvering might win the fight you are in but you are extremely vulnerable to any follow on attackers and it only wins down on the deck because your attacker can't easily exit when he overshoots if he tries to go a couple turns with you.
Some of Agent 360's films are a good demonstration of baiting folks into a knife fight on the deck. He points his tail at them to lure them into a gun's pass and then uses lag displacement rolls to achieve rear quarter on the overshoot. Once rear quarter he flies as slow as possible to keep the bandit out front until he gets a shot on them.
It is fairly easy to counter. The easiest method is to just ignore them. That's my preferred method. If I see a Hurricane or Zero below 5 K I completely ignore it until someone else burns his energy down and then I go pure vertical on him for the kill shot. Speed is life when attacking. Some are better than others at playing bait. If you see a guy breaking hard 1000 yards out, he isn't confident in baiting you into an overshoot. When you see the break go nose high, invert and watch. Most folks are predictable and will repeat the same maneuver. The next pass you can predict the end point of his break and just point there and hold the trigger down. Most people use one of two break turns early in their flying, split S and barrel roll. I'm pretty sure the barrel roll is unintentional but that is what results when you pull the stick into a back corner. (Proper break turn technique is unload the airplane, max roll to angle of bank desired then pull). The barrel roller is probably fairly new. The split S guy has probably got a little experience but you can still pop him on the bottom of his split S.
If you see a guy in a low to moderate G turn, nose low as you attack...look out, he is setting you up. He is slowly getting his lift vector pointed at you while maintaining or even building energy. This gives you the most difficult shot, a high G, high deflection shot.
If you go for the shot plan a level high speed extension to defeat his lag roll to your rear quarter. He will still be rear quarter but out of guns range (we hope...speed is life here).
If you want to saddle up, convert to deep lag pursuit and watch for his next move.
If you want to do neither go nose high and watch.
Unrelated random thoughts.....
Always attack as close to pure vertical as you can on a hard turning aircraft. Your roll rate will defeat his hardest break turn. Be sure he is low Energy because the most common defense is for him to go pure vertical also and force a head on. If you see him pulling for the HO half or quarter roll and pull and get back upstairs.
Lag displacement rolls are an excellent defensive tool and you can convert to an offensive position if the bandit is a dummy. Flat scissors are a last ditch defensive move and if you use it, go in all the way because the bandit will get at least one snapshot and, if you are hesistant, multiple snapshots.
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Then take this a step further and figure out how slow you can go and still make an immelman. Figure out how close to the ground you can be and still make a Split-S at various speeds. All good things to know about your chosen ride.
Regards,
Hammer
I would assume the OP wants to know what the minimum speed is for effective BFM (Basic Fighter Maneuvers).
For me (IIRC, I got this directly from Robert Shaw's classic Fighter Combat) the key speed to keep in mind is that which allows you to complete a pure vertical maneuver.
Ideally, you want to be able to pull the nose up all the way into a half loop and be able to finish off with a half roll at the top (Modern Immelmann maneuver).
This speed will allow you to do any of the Basic Fighter Maneuvers and ,thus, puts you in a good position for defense.
Now, what speed is that exactly? It gets a little tricky at this point because the speed required to do a vertical maneuver can be dependent on the technique used to accomplish it.
A maximum G Immelmann requires more speed at entry than an airshow quality Immelman.
Another variable in the equation is altitude. With 15,000 feet below you, its easy to convert altitude for speed. I'll get slower than my minimum vertical maneuver speed up high because I know I can always use nose low maneuvering to build speed. On the deck every knot below maximum G maneuvering speed is a nail in the coffin.
How do I track this speed? For starters I fly only one airplane type, the P38. I don't ever look at the instrument panel much less the airspeed indicator. It has to become a matter of judging the wind noise, an instinctive "feel". In a real airplane it is easy to tell how fast you are going, especially in a WWII era airplane. On a computer its a bit harder. Thats why I recommend using a headset to fly and adjusting the engine sounds down to a low level and using wind noise as your primary speed indication.
Learning one plane type really well before swapping to another is always a good idea as well.
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Notice how I only took 2 sentences to make that point? :lol
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I thought this was where folks went for Help and Training not a contest to make a point in the fewest words.
My mistake I guess.
I'll play better next time.
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I thought this was where folks went for Help and Training not a contest to make a point in the fewest words.
My mistake I guess.
I'll play better next time.
If you want to maximize the number of people who get your point, make it brief and up front (the Army calls that BLUF - Bottom Line Up Front). If you then want to give more details, that is great and the people who are interested will continue to read. Those who just want the point or don't have time to read a lot can get the point and move on.
Regards,
Hammer
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My guess is you haven't taught very much.
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You would be wrong.
edit.. BTW, talking writing style here, not teaching. Getting somebody to read something is significantly different from teaching a class. That is especially true in this environment.
Regards,
Hammer