Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Yarbles on January 12, 2009, 07:35:29 AM
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I know what furballers are but what are toolshedders?
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They kill the evil, dangerous buildings on a base.
:noid
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They kill the evil, dangerous buildings on a base.
:noid
some use torpedoes for this. :noid
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some use torpedoes for this. :noid
I prefer drop tanks :D
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I prefer drop tanks :D
ya, but with torps, you can lead it a bit, so when someone turns the town, ya still hit it. :rofl :noid
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ya, but with torps, you can lead it a bit, so when someone turns the town, ya still hit it. :rofl :noid
I thought I was the only one seeing this :noid
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Someone will correct a detail of my definition, but here's my best try:
Toolshedder: Is typically a bomber pilot who ignores player controlled objects and attacks stationary, unoccupied buildings instead, i.e. a shed full of tools; especially when there is a large furball underway and the bomber pilot drops the fighter hangars without the threat of field capture by either side, which also makes him a griefer. Another variety of toolshedding is noe-base-sneak-capture missions.
Von that white 7 looks frign' awesome!
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Sounds fairly good to me gavagai.
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my definition is targets
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soooo...in all seriousness now.......
sometimes when i don't feel like flying a fighter, i'll take lancs, and just go drop bombs. sometimes fuel or dar factories. sometimes on a town, if there;s an attempt at capture going on at that base....sometimes i'll just go and pop radar on multiple bases....usually picking a route that has me heading home when i drop my last egg. sometimes, i'll go to a small base, and de-ack it......just because i can. it tends to piss off some people too.....but sometimes that;s the point too.
when i'm doing this, it's a bonus if someone comes up to fight me.
so....is this considered toolshedding?
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I added both to the Common terms page (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/wiki/index.php/Common_terms) They are intentionally brief, but I think they cover the definitions.
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Someone will correct a detail of my definition, but here's my best try:
Toolshedder: Is a player (using a bomber, fighter or GV) who ignores player controlled objects and attacks stationary, unoccupied buildings instead, i.e. a shed full of tools; especially when there is a large furball underway and the player drops the fighter hangars without the threat of field capture by either side, which also makes him a griefer. Another variety of toolshedding is noe-base-sneak-capture missions.
Von that white 7 looks frign' awesome!
That's my edit of an otherwise excellent definition.
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Someone will correct a detail of my definition, but here's my best try:
Toolshedder: Is typically a bomber pilot who ignores player controlled objects and attacks stationary, unoccupied buildings instead, i.e. a shed full of tools; especially when there is a large furball underway and the bomber pilot drops the fighter hangars without the threat of field capture by either side, which also makes him a griefer. Another variety of toolshedding is noe-base-sneak-capture missions.
Von that white 7 looks frign' awesome!
Herr Bug's doing :aok
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I'm not really sure just how fighter-bombers fit into this thread, but I do both: I take out ords/VH on an airfield if necessary, dump 3k ords on a cv, or ca, and hit strat targets, if necessary...and then...furball, providing I survive the awesome ground, or puffy ack (from CVs). Some may call me a Toolshedder, others may call me a "Suicide Bomber" which I am not ( I always fly with the intend of surviving)...but I can read a map and see where the fight is going and how I, as an individual, may be able to influence the map to my Country's favor.
Many Tours ago a single Corsair could sink a CV; today we call for more hardening of a CV that now takes 8K to sink, but with increased ack defense.
Many Tours ago we screamed for more ack protection on Airfields, and more Barracks to prevent captures from opposing Airfields...and this happened; now we scream that there is too much ack and that it is too accurate, and that Bombers are targeting Fighter Hangars and Bomber Hangars on airfields we insisted were poorly defended before, but are now protected by the very same defensives we asked for a few TODs ago.
So, am I a Toolshedder, or a Furballer? I fly an aircraft capable of both; I've furballed on the deck with Spits and Zekes, and furballed at 30K with bombers; and just for the record, furballing bombers at 30K far exceeds, in my opinion, the skill of furballing Spits, or Zekes, at sea level.
And! Oh! Do Bombers at 25-30k fall into the Toolshedder Category? And! Do fighter-bombers who oppose this action fall into the Furball Category?
Just wondering...can one furball at 30k...and be a Bomber?
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Play the game the way you enjoy it Patches. If someone else has a problem, it's thier problem and they can learn to deal with it, or go to a different area/map/arena.
Assuming that you're playing within the rules of the game and designers that is.
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It appear to me that “toolsheaders” is used mostly as a derogatory term by furballer types to describe anyone that is not a dedicated furballer.
For the most part I believe they have the definition wrong or at least partly wrong. I’ve flown in well planned mission that contained bombers and escort fighters that fought their way into a target, destroyed the enemy’s ability to make war and captured the base all while being opposed by enemy Air, Sea and Ground forces. The furballers tend to lump everything into “Toolsheading” if it’s not a light fighter with 50% you’re a toolsheader. God forbid you might want to capture a base or horror of horrors win a reset.
I'm a long time player of AW and AH and I've seen the shift in game play strategy, one thing is for sure, it's always changing. It does change from base taking to furballing and back. One change I have noticed, which I believe is more a reflection of our society, is the proliferation of side switching. Loyalty to nothing, it’s only a game, right? I think back to the day when any one side was totally out numbered and people couldn’t switch sides to balance it out. I seemed to have enjoyed the game play more back then. The sense of team work. Even when we lost it was still fun. It always seemed like we had the lowest numbers and got rolled at very base, but it was fun.
Today it’s all about the "me" player. Play when I want, where I want and with who I want or I’m out of here.
I find nothing interesting with the endless furballing just outside of a base in the LWA.
It’s interesting that for the furballers, there is a dedicated arena. Anyone going into that arena knows what to expect. I have yet to see a toolsheader in that arena taking down FH’s or hitting strat targets of any kind. So why is it that every furballer in AH is not in that arena 100% of the time, if it’s all about the fight and the fight is pure air combat, well?
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I have yet to see a toolsheader in that arena taking down FH’s or hitting strat targets of any kind. So why is it that every furballer in AH is not in that arena 100% of the time, if it’s all about the fight and the fight is pure air combat, well?
Because bombers are restricted to one area of the map. When they were available at all bases in the DA, you'd often enter and find all bases belonging to one side.
As someone said, furballers don't need the limp wristed toolshedders but the toolshedders definitely need the furballers.
ack-ack
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Toolshedding is the willful and wanton destruction of inanimate objects. Nothing wrong with that in and of itself. It's not my cup of tea personally, but different strokes for different folks..yadda yada..
The problem arises when people decide to pretty much exclusively toolshed, which could be done offline by the way, with no intrinsic difference. Then, in the act of toolshedding, intentionally or incidentally, they catastrophically interfere with the fun for the people who were hitherto enjoying fighting other living creatures that actually fight back. Even more detrimental to the public perception of the toolshedder is when the toolshedding itself becomes merely a means to an end, a griefing tool, whereby the end goal is to intentionally piss as many people off, who enjoy actually fighting other living creatures, as humanly possible.
I don't entirely blame the toolshedders, I also blame HTC. HTC needs to provide the would be toolshedding griefer with a wider variety and more interesting targets than the show-stopping Fighter Hangers at a given field. That would go a long way to heal the chasm between the two, often diametrically opposed, facets of playerdom.
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The chief frustration with toolshedding is not the concept in and of itself, but the fact that toolshedding, especially in buffs, is simply the single biggest factor in moving the map right now, far more important than who is winning the struggle for either air or ground superiority.
There are a hundred strategies you could use to take a base, but basically the way the game is setup, two missions get used, and those are perhaps the two most boring and unsatisfying. NOE smash and grab or high buff toolshedding.
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but the toolshedders definitely need the furballers.
ack-ack
Care to back this statement up with some actual reasons why "toolsheders" need "furballers" ?
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As someone said, furballers don't need the limp wristed toolshedders but the toolshedders definitely need the furballers.
ack-ack
Why do you find it necessary in a discussion to use debasing personalization’s, like “limp wristed”? Can't you discuss a subject on it's merit?
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Care to back this statement up with some actual reasons why "toolsheders" need "furballers" ?
Because most "toolsheders" can't overcome even minimal resistance? You constantly see the base capture crowd lamenting how they can't do something because too many people are furballing (i.e. they need the furballers to accomplish their mission).
You never see a good furball going with people saying "if only some buffs would come over and kill their fighter hangar, our furball would be successful".
Don't get me wrong. If killing buildings is your thing, go have fun. Just don't do it where there's a good fight going on.
Regards,
Hammer
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Many many times, I've seen the attitude by the "war winning" minded player, that the "furballers" are a resource that they are entitled to tap. They follow up on that concept by toolsheding specifically to kill the furball, and to free up their team mates to play the way they want. There is not a parallel situation in the reverse. So I can understand the little jabs being thrown in the conversation.
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If killing buildings is your thing, go have fun.
Nah, I prefer fighter vs fighter engagements.
It's the painting of all "toolsheders" with the same brush that I take exception to.
Only noobs get on country channel and blame "furballers" for their inability to capture
a field.
<S>
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Because most "toolsheders" can't overcome even minimal resistance? You constantly see the base capture crowd lamenting how they can't do something because too many people are furballing (i.e. they need the furballers to accomplish their mission).
You never see a good furball going with people saying "if only some buffs would come over and kill their fighter hangar, our furball would be successful".
Don't get me wrong. If killing buildings is your thing, go have fun. Just don't do it where there's a good fight going on.
Regards,
Hammer
I can't understand why any furballer flys in any arena except the DA? If it's all about the fight and aircombat, why bother with any other arena except the one designed for furballers? The LWA was designed for people to capture fields, I suggest that the furballers go to the arena designed for them. If they insist in flying in any other arena, they have to accept the fact that land grabers are going to be doing their thing as well.
As far as I can see, Knights seem to have the most dedicated group of furballers. I base this conclusion on the number of fields that Knights lose on any given day and what appears to be a Knight's inability to capture a field. Why they lose so many fields with so many furballers is byond me. They say it's because you can't defend against a hoard. What do they think 20 guys furballing is?
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Many many times, I've seen the attitude by the "war winning" minded player, that the "furballers" are a resource that they are entitled to tap. They follow up on that concept by toolsheding specifically to kill the furball, and to free up their team mates to play the way they want. There is not a parallel situation in the reverse. So I can understand the little jabs being thrown in the conversation.
As a case in point to illustrate the truth of what Murdr says here and what AKAK alluded to earlier. The extremely popular Donut map was removed from the rotation due to the angst created when the "toolshedders" or "win the war types" felt it necessary to destroy the Fighter Town on the map in an effort to coerce those playing there, against their wills, to assist elsewhere with their map reset goal, furballers really didn't want the map reset at all as they loved the map.
What would happen on Donut, and why "toolshedders" often rely on "furballers" on other maps, is one team would commit less of its furballers to FT (usually Bish). This left a far greater proportion of "furballers" elsewhere on the map which could not be effectively countered by the other two teams because all of their furballers were at FT. So, the toolshedders from the other two teams, frustrated by their lack of headway toward winning the war, set about destroying the FT for the "good of their teams" in an effort to leave their furballers no choice but to fight where they wanted them to and hopefully "win the war" and reset the map.
So, I suppose if all teams were comprised of ONLY toolshedders, furballers would not be necessary as no one would actually be fighting each other per se, they would just be pounding pixels with NOE smash & grabs or 30k Buffs. But, as there are those who enjoy fighting each other on other teams, each team requires those "furballer" types in most situations to counter one another and maintain local air superiority long enough to effect base captures and eventually reset the map.
It is because of this I always laugh to myself when I hear some lil' Napoleon spewing venom because all of the "furballers" left the base he wanted prior to capture consummation. But, almost invariably the reason they left is due to the fact he dropped the Fighter Hangers and there was no one for the "furballers" to furball, so they left for greener pastures elsewhere. Now, because he has no fighters there and the FHs are coming back up, the remaining toolshedders get whalloped by the defenders and fail to effect the base capture. In all honesty it is the "furballers" that really don't need the "toolshedders" not the other way around.
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I can't understand why any furballer flys in any arena except the DA? If it's all about the fight and aircombat, why bother with any other arena except the one designed for furballers? The LWA was designed for people to capture fields, I suggest that the furballers go to the arena designed for them. If they insist in flying in any other arena, they have to accept the fact that land grabers are going to be doing their thing as well.
As far as I can see, Knights seem to have the most dedicated group of furballers. I base this conclusion on the number of fields that Knights lose on any given day and what appears to be a Knight's inability to capture a field. Why they lose so many fields with so many furballers is byond me. They say it's because you can't defend against a hoard. What do they think 20 guys furballing is?
The bolded statement above is the biggest load of crap that MOST toolsheders believe in this game. The arenas.....and yes thats ALL OF THEM were made to generate fights! PERIOD ! It doesn't matter if the fight is 1 vs 1 in the air, on the ground, or 20 vs 20 trying to grab a base, its all there to generate fights !
The only problem furballers have with toolsheders is the toolsheder feels they MUST destroy the furball, whether they see it as a chance to grab a base, or to force the furballers to help them grab more bases.
The only problem toolsheders have with furballers is that they see all those resources wasted, how can that be fun when nothing gets accomplished !
This game was not designed for furballers alone, nor was it made "to win the war", its all here to serve as a means to an end.... to get everyone to fight !
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I can't understand why any furballer flys in any arena except the DA? If it's all about the fight and aircombat, why bother with any other arena except the one designed for furballers?
The DA was not designed for furballing. It was designed as a place to have duels. The little furball lake in the DA sprung up to give those who couldn't respect the rules of the arena someplace to have their fun without interfering with those using the DA for its intended purpose. Prior to furball lake's existance, those guys would jump into any duel they could find whether they were invited or not. It has neither the variety or complexity of MA fights.
The LWA was designed for people to capture fields...
Not quite right, either. Base capture, just like everything else in the game, was designed as a way to generate combat between the sides.
If they insist in flying in any other arena, they have to accept the fact that land grabers are going to be doing their thing as well.
Like I said, if that's your thing, go have fun. The only thing I don't like is when the land grab crowd come to the good furball and take out the hangars so the furballers will come help them. It happens every time a good fight gets going.
What do they think 20 guys furballing is?
A lot of fun? Why it is seen as detrimental to land grabbing is what this discussion is all about. On most maps, there are a half dozen or more fields on any given front. Most have no activity going on. Yet if a furball develops between 2 of them, someone will undoubtedly come in, drop the fighter hangars at one of them, and scream for the capture. The guys enjoying the fight keep pushing until they realize they are running out of opponents, at which point most will move on. The base capture crowd slap themselves on the back at what a great thing they did when, in reality, they could have done it at a number of other bases without raining on anybody else's parade.
Regards,
Hammer
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Well, this is what the big guy has said...
Some play the game to fulfill the actual parameters that it was designed for, which is to overcome and conquer bases, and eventually the country, thus winning the war/game.
This is a false assumption.
The game was designed to have fun at different types of combat. Conquering bases is just a means to promote combat and hence fun. But by no means is it more or less justified than going out and just mixing it up.
HiTech
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The question still stands, Why do Furballers fly in anything but the DA at furball lake?
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The question still stands, Why do Furballers fly in anything but the DA at furball lake?
furball lake is too small as it is.
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...It has neither the variety or complexity of MA fights.
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The question still stands, Why do Furballers fly in anything but the DA at furball lake?
First off, its culture leaves much to be desired in my personal opinion.
Second, it is taken to excess IMO...
But problems arise when any of the above are taken to excess.
For instance lets look at what I view as Laz's ideal arena taken to exess.
Air starts 5k off deck. No bombers,no scoring , artifical box aound the play field, that if you run you are blown up. All planes turning style planes, with no planes faster than others.
This would create one fast paced, continues quick action furball. But what are the side effects.
1. New players would burn out fairly quickly.
2. Will to live dimisish greatly.
3. You never get that successfull feeling of beating the odds, and living to tell the tail.
4. You have very little time to socialize with other players.
So while some furballers would say, hey thats all good stuff, I belive AH would be dead long ago if thats all it was.
HiTech
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Like I said, the problem is that it is TOO easy for toolshedders to shut down fights with buffs, it constitutes a mission that is not very realistic for buffs, in the AHII MA the opposition gains no strategic value from the buffs they do shoot down, etc. and so forth.
The problem is that the base capture system isn't generating anything that looks like, say, an 8th Air Force mission vs. the Luftwaffe mission on a regular basis, isn't even generating good fights alot of the times. The two missions that get used for most "wins" are either unescorted buff toolshedder missions with no opposition or noxious and incessant (also possibly incestuous) NOEs with no opposition.
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The extremely popular Donut map was removed from the rotation due to the angst created when the "toolshedders" or "win the war types" felt it necessary to destroy the Fighter Town
The removal of this map IMO is one of the lamest things HTC has ever done.
I would agree with AKAK and call any buff pilot hitting Fighter Town on donut a "limp wristed toolsheder".
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Why do you find it necessary in a discussion to use debasing personalization's, like “limp wristed”? Can't you discuss a subject on it's merit?
My experience is that this is a rare gift few posses ;)
OK if every map had 3 uncapturable bases adjacent Knight, Rook and Bish would all the furballing take place there?
I think not. I suspect most people are a bit of both and do different things. Often when they are furballing they are defending a base or attempting to cap a base. This stuff about who needs who is nonsense but there is one fundamental imbalance in the game.
If you have the unfortunate kind of personality to be a "griefer" (I hope that is in the common terms dictionary) you have more opportunity in bombers than fighters. The Bomber pilot is better able to inflict grief as compared to the fighter pilot who cannot single handedly and autonomously influence the game to the same extent.
The game can be played to varying degrees like chess or an Arcade game. Few people opperate at either extreme. The furballers need the Toolshedders because without them there is less meaning and the base changes alter the experience for all over time while engaging other parts of the brain. This is what is going on but the extreme dedicated furballer experiences this without seeing it consciously within their microscopic attention span :lol
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The question still stands, Why do Furballers fly in anything but the DA at furball lake?
It's been answered. The fact that you don't want to hear or like the answer is another matter entirely.
ack-ack
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My experience is that this is a rare gift few posses ;)
OK if every map had 3 uncapturable bases adjacent Knight, Rook and Bish would all the furballing take place there?
I think not. I suspect most people are a bit of both and do different things. Often when they are furballing they are defending a base or attempting to cap a base. This stuff about who needs who is nonsense but there is one fundamental imbalance in the game.
If you have the unfortunate kind of personality to be a "griefer" (I hope that is in the common terms dictionary) you have more opportunity in bombers than fighters. The Bomber pilot is better able to inflict grief as compared to the fighter pilot who cannot single handedly and autonomously influence the game to the same extent.
The game can be played to varying degrees like chess or an Arcade game. Few people opperate at either extreme. The furballers need the Toolshedders because without them there is less meaning and the base changes alter the experience for all over time while engaging other parts of the brain. This is what is going on but the extreme dedicated furballer experiences this without seeing it consciously within their microscopic attention span :lol
This game use to be played all the time with out bombers being in the air. A number of the maps were made so that they started with each country having a base together. I remember many a night flying from one base to the same group of fighters all night never seeing a bomber at all. As soon as the buffs started fly so did the greifers. Most probably started out thinking they were helping the fight, never realizing that those in the fight had no intention of trying to capture a base the fight was near. But in those days they would listen. If they were asked to leave the furball alone, they would go and work a different base. Today, its more about "pissing the other guy off" as said by HT.
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This game use to be played all the time with out bombers being in the air. A number of the maps were made so that they started with each country having a base together. I remember many a night flying from one base to the same group of fighters all night never seeing a bomber at all. As soon as the buffs started fly so did the greifers. Most probably started out thinking they were helping the fight, never realizing that those in the fight had no intention of trying to capture a base the fight was near. But in those days they would listen. If they were asked to leave the furball alone, they would go and work a different base. Today, its more about "pissing the other guy off" as said by HT.
Ahh
I ve been in the game about 2 years. My squad has always been about taking bases and complains bitterly about the knights inability to do this and tendancy to loose maps. It has been occuring to me recently that allot of people dont want to take bases or maps and just want to furball.
We have 2 MA'S . Maybe only one should have capturable bases for a while. My guess is everyone would end up in the capturable map which would prove the parasitic nature of the furballer. They are attracted to the dynamic nature of the game but then want things to remain static. However this is only my prejudice and maybe the maps would be equally popular.
Since HTC is unlikely to try this has anyone an opinion of the hyerthetical outcome.
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The question still stands, Why do Furballers fly in anything but the DA at furball lake?
Furballing is a misunderstood term. The "furball" is the highest point of "critical mass" in an ongoing melee that often wanders between the bases that support it. That nexus of action supports a tremendous variety of game play all focused on air to air combat. So you can look at it as a temporary ecosystem of sorts. While you will have a group of hard core T&Ber's there habits often vary by whim or need. There is also a second group of more E oriented pilots that try and feed of the hard corp turners, in turn you have a third set that are engaged in a more B&Z style focused on tagging the "E fighters" as they pop up to the top of the action. Many players are "multidisciplinary" and fly all three styles in a single hop, filtering in thru the top and finally exiting from the bottom. Other players only skirt the main action and look to "work the fringe".
What this does is to set up a complex and ever changing combat environment that cant be duplicated in a setting like furball lake IMO. If we look at the clip(s) I posted above all qualify as a form of furball fighting. I'm not flying around a 20k looking for a target, I'm not repeatedly B&Zing a con etc. The complex ACM and SA required to perform "leviathan level" results in a furball are extremely difficult to master. I've flown for 15 yrs and cant even get close, but the ability to work the furball in a lesser manner is all but disappearing.
I blame this entirely on the ever increasing need for the noobherd (which is now a majority of the player base) to gravitate toward the furballs if they are not rolling unopposed dirt. Invariably someone will take down one or more of the bases supporting the action. IMO the death of the furball began when formations of 4 engine bombers combined with "easy mode" bombing arrived.
Historically the "furball" was the training area for ACM, players evolved over time and many like me started off as "190 drivers" picking the fringes and then went to ponies and then spits or 38's and in the case of AW finally A-26's. When you could fly an A-26 in the top and come out the bottom 20 min later you had accomplished something. All the stages were widely accepted, yes people whined but by and large the natural order of things was understood. Everyone had the same goal in the end "air combat".
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Historically the "furball" was the training area for ACM, players evolved over time and many like me started off as "190 drivers" picking the fringes and then went to ponies and then spits or 38's and in the case of AW finally A-26's. When you could fly an A-26 in the top and come out the bottom 20 min later you had accomplished something. All the stages were widely accepted, yes people whined but by and large the natural order of things was understood. Everyone had the same goal in the end "air combat".
Very nice analysis, and an angle I hadn't really thought of, but spot on for how I learned fighint in AW. Nowadays, the fight is seen by many as an annoyance that interferes with capturing a base, and as such is avoided. The emphasis has shifted away from the fight. I'm not talking about the 1 vs 1 fight, but the entire idea of fighting. Capturing a base and resetting the map has become far too important and, unfortunately, much easier to do by avoiding the fight instead of fighting the fight.
Regards,
Hammer
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I haven't bombed a hanger in several years but I have two questions:
How is the buffer to know that the furball he is about to ruin is not in actually a stalemate on the way to a base capture attempt? In this case the buffer is trying to help his countrymen by breaking the stalemate.
How does a furballer know that the furball didn't develop from the defense of a base which the other side started out trying to capture? In this case, the buffer is helping his side to meet the original objective.
Either way who cares? The furball will always re-form in another location.
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The Bomber pilot is better able to inflict grief as compared to the fighter pilot who cannot single handedly and autonomously influence the game to the same extent.
Before i started to avoid flying alone into overwhelming odds I'd often up a base back from a furball take-off location, fly over the furball to the opposing side's take-of field, and dive in. Even though I eventually died every time, most often I ws able to "move the pile" all the way over to the enemy airfield and do so singlehandedly.
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There is no simple answer, my thought is that the focus of the game has shifted far away from its historical roots. going all the way back to AW the area between A land and B land was universally known as the VOD (Valley of Dweebs). In reality it was an ongoing furball that almost never ceased. A second area was universally "the pond", here was a 2nd three country semi furball more focused on individual 1 on 1's. Invariably antagonists would say "meet me at the pond" and often the better sticks gravitated there for ongoing fights. This all coexisted relatively nicely for a long time. A lot probably do to the nature of the squads them selfs. AW had a depth of tradition and standards sorely lacking in most of the current "squads". It's not easy to try and articulate the differences between this game in 1999 vs 2004 and now but they are considerable.