Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: moot on January 25, 2009, 04:40:34 PM
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Thanks for giving it a thought :)
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+1 :aok
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Goes without saying. Tank's number needs raising, Kurt's and D9's need lowering.:aok
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m00t you ta dweeb. +1 :aok
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In the MA at the lower alt most fights are at, I'd agree. Anything over 22k and the thing really shines, you can BnZ everything but P47s up there and I'd have to disagree.
It depends on what HTC judges ENY to be based on; capability, or by usage.
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Anything over 22k and the thing really shines, you can BnZ everything but P47s up there and I'd have to disagree.
While we're on the topic I think the 47N ENY deserves a bit of scrutiny as well.
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While we're on the topic I think the 47N ENY deserves a bit of scrutiny as well.
:aok +1
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While we're on the topic I think the 47N ENY deserves a bit of scrutiny as well.
I think either 8 or 10 on the 47N's. It only shines at high alt and there aren't many high alt fights.
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Mmmmmm... if we lower the ENY everyone will start flying the Tank monster. Then they'll find out that its initial turn rate can and does beat Spit16s. Then they'll learn how to hit with the 30mm. Basically, it will be a nightmare. Keep the 152 the secret weapon it is! Haha
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While we're on the topic I think the 47N ENY deserves a bit of scrutiny as well.
I disagree. It's over-all performance/ability is top-tier.
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I disagree. It's over-all performance/ability is top-tier.
Bollocks. At typical MA alts its a poor turner, poor climber, only competitive in speed for the 5 minutes its WEP lasts. Jug has its good points, but the Pony and Dora are both easier to land kills with in the MA. Come to think of it, the Ta-152 has fantastic firepower, excellent range, climbs and accelerates better than the P-47N, is pretty fast on WEP that lasts 10 minutes and replenishes quickly.
And here is the Ninja-secret of the Ta-152: Its turn radius is poor, between the A-5 and the D9. But the efficiency of its glider-like wings allow it to sustain a very good turn *rate*.
Pony, Dora, JugN, Ta-152, 109K, F4U-1A/D...make 'em all 10 ENY and have done I say.
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The pony-D is fine at 8. 5$ says such a value (not 5 or 10) is because someone at HTC gave it good reflexion.
An ENY of 10 would be great for the 152. You can rarely find a fight on a country that's got enough numbers to restrict ENY at 10 or more, whereas it happens often enough at 6 or 7 or 8 ENY. I wouldn't be against just 8 either.
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I disagree. It's over-all performance/ability is top-tier.
I'm no expert so please explain to me why it's reasonable for the N to be at 5, whilst the D40 is 20? Other than the fact that it runs like a raped ape up high as does the 152.
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I'm no expert so please explain to me why it's reasonable for the N to be at 5, whilst the D40 is 20? Other than the fact that it runs like a raped ape up high as does the 152.
The D-40 ENY might be too high... but there's three important things the N has over the D-40: speed, roll-rate, and range. To my mind, the P-47N is the supreme boom n' zoom aircraft of the American planeset, better than the P-51D.
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Dont even think about wasting your time in asking HTC to reconsider their ENY or OBJ scoring. Stop and think how often people have pointed out the inconsistancies in their scoring and yet... how much has changed?
Browse a bit over the scores and you'll see HUGE discrepancies and they've been pointed out numerous time by numerous people. Yet, in the last year they've changed a single plane and all they did was un-perk the Ta152.
There are all kinds of ENY/OBJ scoring travesties. Having the IL-2 and A20 at 25/25 (ENY/OBJ) is about as logical as having the P47N at 5/10 and the P47D-40 at 20/10.
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How much has changed? Every now and then a guy like you comes around and those of us that pay attention for years now, know better than his baseless rants. I've posted a ton of stuff just in the wishlist.. And a lot of it got in. I'll take my chances, thanks.
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He really is a negative nancy in all the posts I see
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"over the years"... if over the years you've seen som many changes then what are they still doing so efluffied up? If a building is falling apart, painting it isnt repairing it (HTC isnt falling apart, its just an analogy).
"negative"? Nah, just annoyed. We point out those the same issues how often??? Our attempts to improve or balance (in a legit manner) go un-noticed and I can count on just a few fingers as to the number of replies HTC/admin has made to legit questions on coding, scoring, etc.
I very much enjoy the game but I shake my head daily in wonder at a lot of "what-n-why" in this game.
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Take a trip to Grapevine.
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To my mind, the P-47N is the supreme boom n' zoom aircraft of the American planeset, better than the P-51D.
Better for FIVE FREAKIN' MINUTES! Geez...you yourself posted something about the P51D being easier to fly in the MA melees because it climbs and retains energy better, especially sans the "five minutes of joy".
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The D-40 ENY might be too high... but there's three important things the N has over the D-40: speed, roll-rate, and range. To my mind, the P-47N is the supreme boom n' zoom aircraft of the American planeset, better than the P-51D.
Yes...that MUST be why it has such an impressive k/d ratio, and gets SUCH extensive usage (http://img61.imageshack.us/img61/2650/fighterkdet4.jpg)
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I think the P-47N suffers a bit more than the P-51D in terms of overall K/D because I feel it's more often used as a bombsled instead of a fighter. Of course I can't prove it ;)
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D40 heap much better bombsled, climbs 1/3 faster
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D40 heap much better bombsled, climbs 1/3 faster
That's nothing I dispute.
I was just pointing out the possible difference in usage between P-51D & P-47N and the resulting impact on K/D.
Also, I see much more P47D-40 actually used as a fighter than P-47Ns
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Yes...that MUST be why it has such an impressive k/d ratio, and gets SUCH extensive usage (http://img61.imageshack.us/img61/2650/fighterkdet4.jpg)
Yup, and that's also why the P-38J should be perked. :noid
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D40 heap much better bombsled, climbs 1/3 faster
When the fuel load is adjusted to give similar climb times, the D40 does NOT climb that much faster than the N on MIL, and none at all on WEP. The N flies the same amount of time at 50% as the D-40 does at 75%.
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N is about the only plane I fly for fighter---that 5 min can't be wasted being impatient waiting for it to climb. D40 at 100, full ord load climbs at 1200-ish...N 75% full ord load climbs at 900 ish. As a fighter jock, I'm prolly a 6 on scale of 10, would love to see what a REALLY talented guy does with N. but none of those guys fly it, which is telling.
BUT, back to original thread, 152 USED to be perked...now it merely suffers brutal ENY. (Having said that, only a few guys like M00t rule with it....I'm not sure what to think about it....thankfully it doesn't carry eggs, else the noe tards would use it over 110's)
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I won't deny that it's a real late war stud.. But it's not worth 5 ENY. I think 8 ENY would be very good. 10 would be great but may not be fair for the reasons Del pointed out. I personaly can't really decide whether its handicapping heft is really outweighed by its (very, 10k higher than e.g. the N's) high altitude performance. It doesn't accelerate any better up there.. Something like over 20minutes just for the last 50mph or so. I only remember that I literally ran out of patience.
I've flown the N (used to fly the D11 a lot), and it's a real hotrod.. Even if just for 5min. Those guns, strapped to that engine, with less than a mountain of ammo in the wings.. and such usable flaps to help it.. Thunderbolt is a good name for it.
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How much has changed? Every now and then a guy like you comes around and those of us that pay attention for years now, know better than his baseless rants. I've posted a ton of stuff just in the wishlist.. And a lot of it got in. I'll take my chances, thanks.
Oh? Start naming the things YOU have requested and when those specific things were implimented. "Baseless rants"? Oh such snobbery you display for having nothing but a post count to stand on :rolleyes: . Seems like I back all of my "rants" up with reasoning (agree or dissagree, I back them up). If I dont agree with something I state why not, I dont just shoot my mouth off.
You're as clueless cool-aid drinker (do you even know where that term comes from???). I've always acknowledged the changes over the *years*, that isnt my "rant" as you say. My *rant* is the lack of communication from HTC (a simple 2 sentence reply in forums like these would shut a lot of people up), the lack of justification when no one can seem to find any (P47N is prime example), and the lack of action when viable, legit, and historical information is brought forward.
Alright, fess up. Since you've the guru at requesting things and getting them implemented into the game... what and when???
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I'll answer your post in a separate thread, if you can cobble enough brain cells together to start one. Stick to the topic, here.
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smokin loon, if you only been playing since 2008 you havent been here long enough to see the changes.
If you didnt play AH2 beta and first release you could have no real idea how far the game has come.
If you didnt play AH1 then, same...
if you did all those, then you should have learnt not to whine :D
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Oh such snobbery you display for having nothing but a post count to stand on :rolleyes:
:frown:
I think your barking up the wrong tree here. m00t is a class act through and through.
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Mmmmmm... if we lower the ENY everyone will start flying the Tank monster. Then they'll find out that its initial turn rate can and does beat Spit16s. Then they'll learn how to hit with the 30mm. Basically, it will be a nightmare. Keep the 152 the secret weapon it is! Haha
Hmmm, I tend to not think so. Even if they gave a small amount of perks each time you flew the 152, it still probably wouldn't be the most popular plane flown (other than people going to the runway and towering for the perks). There are just certain factors in a plane that most players don't like. Some of them are: poor sustained turn, poor forward view, poor ballistics. Sound like the 152? Nobody cares to learn how to maintain E, utilize roll rate and zoom, and fight at altitude.
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Just one bump. There's no way the K4 is at 20 while the 152 is at 5.
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The D-40 ENY might be too high... but there's three important things the N has over the D-40: speed, roll-rate, and range. To my mind, the P-47N is the supreme boom n' zoom aircraft of the American planeset, better than the P-51D.
but the d-40 fires back with them dive flaps and that first notch of high speed flaps also in the n i lawn dart d 40 i almost lawn dart but with 50 ft left i lvl out and fly away ack firing
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Re-perk the Ta152.
;)
wrongway
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Why is the pony at 8eny while the p47n is at 5?
Doesnt really make sense to me.
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Why is the pony at 8eny while the p47n is at 5?
Doesnt really make sense to me.
+1 to P-47N for firepower. 8 .50s.
+1 to P-47N for ords.
+1 to P-47N for range.
Speeds are comparable.
High Alt maneuverability is comparable if not +1 to P-47N.
wrongway
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Re-perk the Ta152.
:aok
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+1 to P-47N for firepower. 8 .50s.
+1 to P-47N for ords.
+1 to P-47N for range.
Speeds are comparable.
High Alt maneuverability is comparable if not +1 to P-47N.
wrongway
All those apply to D40, save range, (and D40 has over 30 min fuel internal), and damn near NOONE flies N as fighter, which brings into question its 'easy' factor
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All those apply to D40, save range, (and D40 has over 30 min fuel internal), and damn near NOONE flies N as fighter, which brings into question its 'easy' factor
Whenever I fly the P-47, it's as a fighter 90% of the time, and 90% of those sorties are in the N.
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All those apply to D40, save range, (and D40 has over 30 min fuel internal), and damn near NOONE flies N as fighter, which brings into question its 'easy' factor
WEP? More powerful engine? Now we're compairing the N to the D's....
Dunno.
wrongway
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Whenever I fly the P-47, it's as a fighter 90% of the time, and 90% of those sorties are in the N.
AS do I, but far more so---I prolly get 95% of my air-to-air kills each month in N--I simply haven't the talent I've seen a very few folks put forth in the slower D40/25 to survive in low furballs without the benefit of superior numbers, and if you hang out at jug's prime alt looking for a fight, you will be waiting a long time. ANY sort of eny hit, the 152 and N are in the hangar,( planes which very few folks choose to fly even when they are available.) N's original eny cutoff WAS 10 or so, then it was decided to drop it to 5, while leaving one of the most-used, fastest fight-attackers in the game at 8
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I see your point. Maybe it's fair to say that current ENY values place too much emphasis on WEP performance and not enough on standard military power performance.
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Maybe most players don't survive longer than a little over 5min.
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This whole Eny debacle is the reason I think that plane popularity should play a higher roll in determining its Eny. The masses will fly the planes that give them the best chances to succeed in the MA environment, which they are actually defining themselves. There's a reason for a plane's popularity/scarcity in the air. For example to show I'm not being biased, I'll say I think it is time for the K4's eny(due to its influx in popularity to go along with its obvious performance advantages) to be lowered to 15 or even 10 maybe.
As for the Ta152 and P47N? Cmon, look at its stats Htc, both planes should be in the 10 Eny range.
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This whole Eny debacle is the reason I think that plane popularity should play a higher roll in determining its Eny. The masses will fly the planes that give them the best chances to succeed in the MA environment, which they are actually defining themselves. There's a reason for a plane's popularity/scarcity in the air. For example to show I'm not being biased, I'll say I think it is time for the K4's eny(due to its influx in popularity to go along with its obvious performance advantages) to be lowered to 15 or even 10 maybe.
As for the Ta152 and P47N? Cmon, look at its stats Htc, both planes should be in the 10 Eny range.
ENY is about arena balance. The recent influx of 109K4s is not effecting the arenas in adverse ways. More people are flying them but more people are not really getting killed in them. they are still not an "uber" ride that is easy for the average player to blow through and kill someone in.
I think popularity has more to do with what is fun for someone to fly. What would be the point of making "popular" planes less available as numbers change, killing people's fun?
Perhaps ENY isn't just a tool of success with a plane but also a tool of the outcome, i.e.: perk points earned. Fly a high ENY plane and earn fewer points. If a P-47N is easier to get a successful sortie with and land than a P-47D, be it air-to-air or air-to-ground, perhaps the ENY is an attempt to balance the aftermath.
Want more points, fly a D instead of an N?
I still don't know.
wrongway
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I think that both the Bf 109K and the Ta 152H should be 10 eny.
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This whole Eny debacle is the reason I think that plane popularity should play a higher roll in determining its Eny. The masses will fly the planes that give them the best chances to succeed in the MA environment, which they are actually defining themselves. There's a reason for a plane's popularity/scarcity in the air. For example to show I'm not being biased, I'll say I think it is time for the K4's eny(due to its influx in popularity to go along with its obvious performance advantages) to be lowered to 15 or even 10 maybe.
As for the Ta152 and P47N? Cmon, look at its stats Htc, both planes should be in the 10 Eny range.
You are absolutely right about the 109 K-4 deserving a lower ENY on account of performance, to say nothing of the 152 and N-Jug.
However, popularity has absolutely nothing to do with how much or how little the player gets to work with when he rolls the aircraft, so why make it an issue?
On top of that, it looks like in 2008 the K-4 was not even the most popular German plane...hard to tell all the different shades of that chart apart though. :huh Certainly the 190 family was used for a lot more kills than the 109 family.
So go on and admit the reason it needs its ENY lowered is because it possesses an extremely beneficial combination of top speed, power loading, and lift loading relative other planes...albeit it also has possession of a few special "quirks". :devil
(http://img55.imageshack.us/img55/8071/planeusagedf8.jpg)
(http://img61.imageshack.us/img61/2904/fighterframefamiliesec5.jpg)
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ENY is about arena balance. The recent influx of 109K4s is not effecting the arenas in adverse ways. More people are flying them but more people are not really getting killed in them. they are still not an "uber" ride that is easy for the average player to blow through and kill someone in.
I think popularity has more to do with what is fun for someone to fly. What would be the point of making "popular" planes less available as numbers change, killing people's fun?
Perhaps ENY isn't just a tool of success with a plane but also a tool of the outcome, i.e.: perk points earned. Fly a high ENY plane and earn fewer points. If a P-47N is easier to get a successful sortie with and land than a P-47D, be it air-to-air or air-to-ground, perhaps the ENY is an attempt to balance the aftermath.
Want more points, fly a D instead of an N?
I still don't know.
wrongway
No, ENY is about arena balance, and therefore the stronger planes ought to be lower on the ENY scale. The K4:152 ENYs don't match their relative performance, nor their performance in a furball. What you're describing is the criteria for perking. It's not the same thing. You got it closer to right in the second part of the post.
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All things being equal, killing an La7 or SpitXVI with a Ta-152 or P-47N is a more of a job of work than doing the opposite.
The ENY value/perk reward does not reflect that.
Going by the ENY numbers, we would have to assume the 109 K is at tremendous disadvantage against the 152 or 47N....
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On top of that, it looks like in 2008 the K-4 was not even the most popular German plane...hard to tell all the different shades of that chart apart though. :huh Certainly the 190 family was used for a lot more kills than the 109 family.
You have called?
(http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/8150/germanplanes2008.jpg)
:)
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Thank you Lusche...
Whoa!!! The 110G-2 _and_ 190 A8 were more used than the D9 *and* K-4?
That about wraps it up for "usage" as a useful measure of anything I'd say. :D
You have called?
(http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/8150/germanplanes2008.jpg)
:)
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Thank you Lusche...
Whoa!!! The 110G-2 _and_ 190 A8 were more used than the D9 *and* K-4?
That about wraps it up for "usage" as a useful measure of anything I'd say. :D
I bet 110 has 50% gv kills
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I'd bet closer to 75%.
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Well.. the 110 is THE plane of choice for all landgrab / noe missions. Of course, most of it's K+D is actually just D ;)
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lol... 6600+ kills to 10300+ deaths this tour.
Has a decent amount of A2A kills in comparison to GV kills though.
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(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3377/3564932230_42392e41ec_o.png)
Dang.. you guys beat me to it.
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:rofl :rofl
Not getting the horse and buggy for the 110G though.
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I bet 110 has 50% gv kills
I'd bet closer to 75%.
Actually it was much less.
In 2008, only about 5% of all Panzer (the MA GV #1) kills by planes were made by 110's.
#1 - Il2 with 16%
#2 - A20 with 11%
#3 - B25H with 8%
#4 - F6F with 6%
EDIT: OOOPS.. I think I just have misinterpreted your post :o
You meant "50% of all 110G kills are GV" - but thats usually not the case either. Most tours the GV/boat kills amount to about 30-35% of all 110G kills.
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:rofl :rofl
Not getting the horse and buggy for the 110G though.
Blinders and ordnance, whip-snapping carriage driver..
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:lol
Nice m00t.
I'm sorry Wrongway & BnZ I have to disagree.
I firmly believe a plane's popularity is directly correlated with its ability to be successful in the MA environment by the average pilot. That's why the P51D is the most popular ride. One of the fastest rides with ezmode guns and aiming. The perfect main arena ride. You can divulge into all sorts of secondary stats that deal with a plane's performance and why it's actually *not that good* but as far as the essential stats that matter for MA success are concerned, the P51 has them both... GUNS and SPEED. All other stats (i.e. turn performance, roll) simply don't matter in the MA the way 95% of the people fly the popular planes. Like I said, the masses create the MA environment. Imo the 190D9 might be the best non perked MA plane in the game. Fastest non perked plane on the deck and 500 20mm cannon rounds. What more do you need to fly like a timid picktard?
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:lol
Nice m00t.
I'm sorry Wrongway & BnZ I have to disagree.
I firmly believe a plane's popularity is directly correlated with its ability to be successful in the MA environment by the average pilot. That's why the P51D is the most popular ride. One of the fastest rides with ezmode guns and aiming. The perfect main arena ride. You can divulge into all sorts of secondary stats that deal with a plane's performance and why it's actually *not that good* but as far as the essential stats that matter for MA success are concerned, the P51 has them both... GUNS and SPEED. All other stats (i.e. turn performance, roll) simply don't matter in the MA the way 95% of the people fly the popular planes. Like I said, the masses create the MA environment. Imo the 190D9 might be the best non perked MA plane in the game. Fastest non perked plane on the deck and 500 20mm cannon rounds. What more do you need to fly like a timid picktard?
Grizz, by your theories, the D9 would be the *most* popular plane, since it is better in almost every way for the hit and run style compared to the P-51D, as is the La7. "Guns"? The P-51D has mediocre lethality. The P-47N, Typhoon, and Ta-152 (361mph OTD, massive firepower) should also be "up there" if your theory was correct. They are not. In reality, out of those planes only the P-51D and La7 are amongst the "most popular", and the other two of the "most popular" are the 344mph OTD SpitXVI, and the 325mph OTD N1K.
The airplane choices in AHII aren't about speed alone, or likely any other rational basis. They do not reflect the worth of a plane, or the ease/difficulty of getting kills in it. IMO, it would be foolish to determine ENY on a "popularity contest" basis. I mean, up to 50% of sorties may be flown by pilots who don't have any firm idea of the relative performance of their ride vs. the rest of the set. ("I thought the P-51 was the fastest...").
BTW, the La7 is the fastest non perked plane OTD, at 381mph. The Typhoon has 372mph OTD. The 190 can get 375, IF the drop tank rail is not taken, which drops its top speed OTD to 369.
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No, ENY is about arena balance, and therefore the stronger planes ought to be lower on the ENY scale.
I think I said the same thing, word for word.
The K4:152 ENYs don't match their relative performance, nor their performance in a furball. What you're describing is the criteria for perking.
I look at ENY as perking without the perks needed to fly as the first planes you cannot fly as sides become out-of-balance are the high ENY planes.
No matter what a perked plane "costs", you still can't fly it once ENY kicks in to penalize the higher numbered side.
wrongway
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That's not what the first part of your post read like. It read like a refutal to Grizz saying popularity should decide ENY.. Which IMO is too far opposite as well. I think ENY needs to hit the right compromise between pure potential and actual performance in the game. Having a game that's 95% xbox gamers would make for different optimal ENY values than one where 95% of the players were dyed in the wool purists.
And in this discussion we need to pick words a bit more carefully. The first planes you can't fly with growing ENY limitations are the planes low on the ENY scale. I'm not trying to be snotty about it.. It just makes for misunderstandings. "High ENY planes"
And the K4 and 152 ENYs are inconsistent. The 152 might have better firepower, but you actually need to survive and then actually hit. It's easier to do that with the K4.
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I have good answers for all the points you bring up so let me try to sort it out.
Grizz, by your theories, the D9 would be the *most* popular plane, since it is better in almost every way for the hit and run style compared to the P-51D, as is the La7. "Guns"? The P-51D has mediocre lethality.
The D9 is one of the most popular rides first of all. Imo the reason it isn't as popular as the P51D is because of its forward cockpit visibility. The 20mm's are hard to aim with for the average player especially with all the obstructions in the forward art. If HTC switched around the forward arts of the P51D and Fw190D9z I am convinced the D9 would take over as the most popular ride in the MA. And also on top of that, 50 cals are easier to aim with even if they aren't as lethal, but once a player learns how to aim 6 50 cals is extremely potent.
The P-47N, Typhoon, and Ta-152 (361mph OTD, massive firepower) should also be "up there" if your theory was correct. They are not. In reality, out of those planes only the P-51D and La7 are amongst the "most popular", and the other two of the "most popular" are the 344mph OTD SpitXVI, and the 325mph OTD N1K.
Typhoon: Haha Bnz, the Typhoon is a top 5 killer in the MA, I would consider that part of the 'most popular' group and in congruence with my theory.
P47N: This plane just 'feels' slow and actually is quite slow without its wep (which only lasts 5 minutes). It takes forever to climb up to a reasonable altitude and accelerates like a dog.
Ta152: Wobbly handling, difficult ballistics, and its obstructed german forward view (like the D9) deter average pilots from flying it. Imo you need a set of rudder pedals to have any chance of flying this plane with any sort of success.
I feel the average pilot usually makes a choice what he wants to do. Either A) SPEED AND GUNS which are the planes I have mentioned and are the most popular of that mentality or B) TURN AND GUNS. The absolute best turners with Gunz that also have decent enough speed to compete in the LW? Spits and N1K2s.
The airplane choices in AHII aren't about speed alone, or likely any other rational basis. They do not reflect the worth of a plane, or the ease/difficulty of getting kills in it. IMO, it would be foolish to determine ENY on a "popularity contest" basis. I mean, up to 50% of sorties may be flown by pilots who don't have any firm idea of the relative performance of their ride vs. the rest of the set. ("I thought the P-51 was the fastest...").
I don't think it should be based 100% on popularity alone but I do think that popularity should be playing a larger roll in determining Eny. With the P51D consistently ranking as the #1 Killer in the MA I have a hard time seeing how it can be Eny 8 and not 5.
There would be something positive coming out out Enying the popular rides more stringently though. Players would be forced to try other less popular planes. It would diversify the arena more and teach the majority of players about what they are missing in the rest of the plane set.
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I firmly believe a plane's popularity is directly correlated with its ability to be successful in the MA environment by the average pilot. That's why the P51D is the most popular ride. One of the fastest rides with ezmode guns and aiming. The perfect main arena ride. You can divulge into all sorts of secondary stats that deal with a plane's performance and why it's actually *not that good* but as far as the essential stats that matter for MA success are concerned, the P51 has them both... GUNS and SPEED. All other stats (i.e. turn performance, roll) simply don't matter in the MA the way 95% of the people fly the popular planes. Like I said, the masses create the MA environment. Imo the 190D9 might be the best non perked MA plane in the game. Fastest non perked plane on the deck and 500 20mm cannon rounds. What more do you need to fly like a timid picktard?
I'm with Grizz on this. If usage determined ENY, with ENY updating say weekly or montly, the planes that are most flown will in turn be the first to be limited due to side imbalance. I like the idea.
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I'm sorry Wrongway & BnZ I have to disagree.
I firmly believe a plane's popularity is directly correlated with its ability to be successful in the MA environment by the average pilot. That's why the P51D is the most popular ride.
They're not saying there's no correlation. They're saying it's not a necessary connection, i.e. you can't say a priori that a popular plane is a high performance plane.
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Ta152: Wobbly handling, difficult ballistics, and its obstructed german forward view (like the D9) deter average pilots from flying it. Imo you need a set of rudder pedals to have any chance of flying this plane with any sort of success.
Nope to that. I have a twisty stick. Ta-152 is probably about as easy to land kills in as a P-51 once you get used to it. It is a better 1v1 fighter IMO. WEP conservation IS important in a 47N, but look at what you get...essentially the same WEP speed as a P-51, one of the fastest high-speed roll rates, 8 .50s. And it turns better. It also falls into the "about as good" category IMO. IMO, the worst b'n'z plane named out of this lot is the Typhoon, with its poor roll rate and poor climb rate. And the Typhoon is more popular than the other two...there goes the AHII masses being mistaken about a plane's worth again.
I don't think it should be based 100% on popularity alone but I do think that popularity should be playing a larger roll in determining Eny. With the P51D consistently ranking as the #1 Killer in the MA I have a hard time seeing how it can be Eny 8 and not 5.
The P-51D is definitely a mediocre aircraft compared to two of the eny 5s, the SpitXVI and La7. As for the Ta-152, 47N, and N1K, I have difficulty seeing why they are eny 5 at all.
Remember, the stats for "usage" are actually kills+deaths. The number #1 unperked killer most tours is the Ta-152. Okay, you'll say that plane is flown only by a cadre of experts...fine, the Dora9 and bog-slow HurriIIc are fairly popular and also had higher K/Ds than the P-51D, as did the SpitXVI in 2008.
Be more accurate to say the P-51D is a popular plane to DIE in. Popularity does not increase performance. I see no reason why people rolling a P-51D should be punished by ENY and people rolling a Dora9 or other "sleepers" should be rewarded.
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Keep in mind, the P-51 is always going to be a popular plane for suicide porking because it's near impossible to stop.
Edit:
If the P-51D could only carry 500lb bombs, you'd see its usage drop considerably.
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IMO, ENY and Perk values should be determined by a huge experten-only dueling tourney. Of course, multiple combats with all possible combinations of fighter planes and different pilots at various altitudes could take awhile..... :devil
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When I first started playing, the P-47N had an ENY of 12 versus the Pony's 8. I thought that better represented the performance relationship between the two aircraft. I believe whole-heartedly that the Jug-N should have a 5 OBJ rating (along with the D-40), but I think a 5 ENY is a little low. I also think the Ta152 ENY is too low.
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The P-51D is definitely a mediocre aircraft compared to two of the eny 5s, the SpitXVI and La7. As for the Ta-152, 47N, and N1K, I have difficulty seeing why they are eny 5 at all.
Remember, the stats for "usage" are actually kills+deaths. The number #1 unperked killer most tours is the Ta-152. Okay, you'll say that plane is flown only by a cadre of experts...fine, the Dora9 and bog-slow HurriIIc are fairly popular and also had higher K/Ds than the P-51D, as did the SpitXVI in 2008.
Be more accurate to say the P-51D is a popular plane to DIE in. Popularity does not increase performance. I see no reason why people rolling a P-51D should be punished by ENY and people rolling a Dora9 or other "sleepers" should be rewarded.
P51D isn't mediocre to the Spit16 nor the La7. Spit16 just isn't fast enough to be timid with. Comparing the Spit16 and P51D is apples and oranges, two entirely different planes with different strengths. The La7 just doesn't have enough endurance to be able to go on that long timid mission where you might get 1 or 2 kills in 30 minutes. Not many pilots actually throttle back. :lol
You are right though about the D9, I see no reason either why taking it out of hangar should give you a 15 eny reward. D9 should be around 8 eny imo. And I think you'll see that its popularity is quite high for it being a '15 eny' bird.
IMO, ENY and Perk values should be determined by a huge experten-only dueling tourney. Of course, multiple combats with all possible combinations of fighter planes and different pilots at various altitudes could take awhile..... :devil
With this idea here, you are completely ignoring the dynamic of the main arena which is not like any 1v1 duel. The best information available on plane performance is the data that comes out each month from the LW.
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They're not saying there's no correlation. They're saying it's not a necessary connection, i.e. you can't say a priori that a popular plane is a high performance plane.
There is a strong correlation between the lot of pilots flying the best planes in the MA that give them the best chance of success. Those planes should be considered the 'best'. Just look at the top 5 killers each month. It rarely varies.
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The top 5 killers:
P-51D
Spitfire Mk XVI
Typhoon IB
N1K2
F4U-1D
Funny that the La-7 isn't there, even though it is a superior arena aircraft.
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The top 5 killers:
P-51D
Spitfire Mk XVI
Typhoon IB
N1K2
F4U-1D
Funny that the La-7 isn't there, even though it is a superior arena aircraft.
The La7 is just on the outskirts. The La7 has such poor endurance that it is generally only a viable choice for base defense. Defending a base and killing that con with all the advantages is also the toughest kill to get.
Enough hijacking though..
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By the powers granted to me as Thread Originator, I grant you Permission to continue deliberation of this Most Relevant tangent.
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With this idea here, you are completely ignoring the dynamic of the main arena which is not like any 1v1 duel. The best information available on plane performance is the data that comes out each month from the LW.
1v1? I was also thinking there could be a 4v4 dueling category...
Nope, sorry, that is some of the worst information. The MA is full of people who know less about air combat and their own aircraft than the greenest real combat pilot imaginable.
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This of course ignores k/d. The P-40 would have a huge chunk of MA kills too if nearly 10% of sorties were flown it it...doesn't mean much about the aircraft if it gets killed about as often as it gets a kill.
The top 5 killers:
P-51D
Spitfire Mk XVI
Typhoon IB
N1K2
F4U-1D
Funny that the La-7 isn't there, even though it is a superior arena aircraft.
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This is kind of like plasma physics. You can't just change one variable and not have all the others change too. The P40's k/d is only what it is because it's flown as much/little and well/bad as it is now. 10% of the sorties flown with the P40 would make for a different k/d, k/t, etc.
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Hehe, very well moot.
The MA is full of people who know less about air combat and their own aircraft than the greenest real combat pilot imaginable.
Yes but the masses define what planes work best in the game play environment that they create in the MA.
I wish it was possible to set up a controlled experiment, for example, have all the pilots who fly P51Ds have to fly P47Ns for three months and then compare the stats of the two planes. Lets assume for all intensive purposes that both planes would be flown in the same style. I'm willing to bet the farm that the P47N which would be the new top killer in the MA in this experiment would have a significantly lower K/D than that of the P51D when it is the top killer. Same goes for the Ta152 (for thread relevance sake) in the same experiment. If this was the case, it would prove the P51D is a flat out better MA ride for the masses than the P47N or the Ta152 therefore undermining the current Eny's of all 3 planes. Do you disagree? Do you think the masses could accrue as high of K/D totals in the P47N & Ta152 if they were as popular as the P51D? I don't even think it would be close. It would be hard to tally all the random crashes from tail spins though in the Ta152. :lol
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This is kind of like plasma physics. You can't just change one variable and not have all the others change too. The P40's k/d is only what it is because it's flown as much/little and well/bad as it is now. 10% of the sorties flown with the P40 would make for a different k/d, k/t, etc.
It is not like any kind of science because there is no useful information or consistent principle to be discerned from the usage and k/d stats. If you could somehow whittle the flying population down to only the competent, then kills/death, kills/sortie, and kills/time *together* *might* tell you something useful about MA effectiveness. But that is not the case, you run into things like the P-51D having a lower k/d than the 190 A-5 for 2008.
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I am very confident that the ex P-51 pilots could amass an equal or greater k/d with the P-47N. If nothing else, the P-47N with its 8 guns, ammo load, and roll rate is going be better for the KILLING end of it out of a high speed dive.
I am fairly confident they could also gain a roughly equal k/d in the Ta-152, you have to be stall fighting to get bit by that nasty departure you talk about, and that is not the style in question aye? If nothing else, the Ta-152 firepower is superior for tackling buffs.
Hehe, very well moot.
Yes but the masses define what planes work best in the game play environment that they create in the MA.
I wish it was possible to set up a controlled experiment, for example, have all the pilots who fly P51Ds have to fly P47Ns for three months and then compare the stats of the two planes. Lets assume for all intensive purposes that both planes would be flown in the same style. I'm willing to bet the farm that the P47N which would be the new top killer in the MA in this experiment would have a significantly lower K/D than that of the P51D when it is the top killer. Same goes for the Ta152 (for thread relevance sake) in the same experiment. If this was the case, it would prove the P51D is a flat out better MA ride for the masses than the P47N or the Ta152 therefore undermining the current Eny's of all 3 planes. Do you disagree? Do you think the masses could accrue as high of K/D totals in the P47N & Ta152 if they were as popular as the P51D? I don't even think it would be close. It would be hard to tally all the random crashes from tail spins though in the Ta152. :lol
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I am very confident that the ex P-51 pilots could amass an equal or greater k/d with the P-47N. If nothing else, the P-47N with its 8 guns, ammo load, and roll rate is going be better for the KILLING end of it out of a high speed dive.
I am fairly confident they could also gain a roughly equal k/d in the Ta-152, you have to be stall fighting to get bit by that nasty departure you talk about, and that is not the style in question aye? If nothing else, the Ta-152 firepower is superior for tackling buffs.
I'd like to get moot's take on it.
Imagine all of the low P47Ns and Ta152s trying to run and getting chased down and killed. The P51D will escape unscathed in a lot more of these situations.
Btw, I'd much rather kill a set of buffs with P47N or P51D than the Ta152. Buffs absorb 30mm taters like nobody's business. :uhoh
Jabboing does significantly drop the K/D of the P51D and in my 'experiment' you can assume the same pilots would be jabboing in the P47N and dying the same way. But since the Ta152 doesn't carry bombs it wouldn't be a very controlled experiment i guess with this plane in particular due to this circumstance.
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BnZ - I'm just saying you can't just extrapolate what the P40 k/d would be from where the stats stand right now. The point is that you've got a soup of elements with a variety of attributes, and it's all interdependent. Change one and everything changes in concert. None of the elements are in a vacuum.
Grizz - What's the question exactly?
47/51/152 for buffs... I dunno, they're pretty close overall. The differences are in how you mean to kill the bombers.. Some passes are easier and/or more lethal in the 152, and others are easier and/or more lethal in the 50cal birds. The thing with the 152's cannons against bombers is that (and anyone who flew a lot before AH2 will remember this when we got AH2) the nose wavers, unlike the 51 and 47 (magnified by the comparatively pinpoint accurate ballistics), so that it's real easy to spread the cannons too far apart.. Unless you get in real close (and risk more time in the bombers' defensive fire - begging for a rad hit); and there too it's a toss-up: for the 50cal birds, you have to fly pointing at the target for longer compared to the cannons' quicker lethality.
8x.50 is a real chainsaw, and from further out, and the 47's pretty durable.. But then the 47N's no climbing monster. It's a toss-up.
Comparing the 51 and 152.. It's pretty obvious IMO that the 51 is much more user friendly. The only way the 152 appears as the better, more potent fighter is if you're experienced enough to be able to extract that potential from it; even then, the 51D isn't uncompetitive either. That user-friendliness is a more useful virtue to most players. There's enough different flight regimes where either one of the two comes out on top that neither is clearly the better plane. IMO the 8 ENY value is pretty much perfect. The 47N needs 8 or 10. It's just too heavy, the wep lasts too little, the firepower is too restricted by the other attributes.
The 152.. I'm biased, but one objective argument is that the K4 simply can't be 20. Not when the 152's at 5, which is definitely too low.. I think it deserves something like 8 as well.
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I think it deserves something like 8 as well.
Grizz and I touched on this in a previous conversation. I think an 8 would be a more suitable ENY for the 152. She is an absolute monster up high, but only truly sings at average MA alts in the hands on skilled pilots. The 5 ENY is too low... :aok
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Grizz - What's the question exactly?
Well like you said the P51D is very user friendly. My question in general was: Do you think if you put all the P51D pilots currently into P47Ns or 152s they'd be able to match the P51D K/D stats? I say no. 47n and 152 have too many quirks the average pilot can't overcome and simply aren't fast enough to escape from a lot of other popular rides.
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Do you think if you put all the P51D pilots currently into P47Ns or 152s they'd be able to match the P51D K/D stats?
Nope.
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I'd like to get moot's take on it.
Imagine all of the low P47Ns and Ta152s trying to run and getting chased down and killed. The P51D will escape unscathed in a lot more of these situations.
You think the 3mph and 7mph the P-51D has over the 47 and 152 OTD respectively will make all the difference, aye?
P-47N and Ta-152 you don't have to be a "rifleman" with the guns...you just set up a relatively short range bounce or crossing shot and let the lethality work.
P-47N is as "user friendly" in handling as the P-51D if you don't take an hour's worth of fuel. The only real quirk is conserving WEP until you really need it, which is also needed in the P-51 if one wants to reliably accelerate away from a crowd of pursuers. P-47N you can also hammer away for 32 seconds before running out of ammo.
Anyway, didn't the fairly popular planes SpitXVI, La7, D9, and Typhoon all have a higher k/d for 2008 than the P-51D?
Many clearly DO think they think it is the "best plane", just as clearly they are wrong.
As far as practical bearing of this, I'd put Typhoon, Jug-N, P-51D, 152, D9, and K-4 all around ENY 10. Everyone of them has too much good and bad relative the others for a clear choice. I'd probably also put the N1K there too if I had my druthers.
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Agree to disagree, I expect.
The 51D doesn't have just a marginal 3mph advantage OTD over the 47 (at MIL they're something like two dozen MPH apart), although the 152's mil and wep speeds are comparable to the N's. Acceleration of all three is marginaly different.
The N easily out punches the 152 at medium to long ranges. The 51 is identical to the N with only difference being required exposure time, which is about equally counter-balanced by the 51's relative agility. At short range, the 51 is easily more user friendly than the 47 and 152. Screw up a shot in the 152 and you're done. A slow knife fight in the N is no easy feat for an average player. A fast snapshot (e.g. at high speed) from closer range with the N is no guarantee of a kill.
The N is definitely not as user friendly as the 51. Not unless you load the comparison by giving the N low fuel and light ammo, or 6 guns which totally defeats the purpose of this comparison. I don't think the extra ammo is considerable as a user-friendly feature, unless said user manages to dump the ammo on targets early on in the flight.
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At short range, the 51 is easily more user friendly than the 47 and 152. Screw up a shot in the 152 and you're done. A slow knife fight in the N is no easy feat for an average player.
I disagree strongly with this point. All P-47s, even the N, will turn slightly better than the P-51D with flaps, roll better, and are more stable "riding the edge". A turning fight is good territory for a Jug against either a P-51 or Typhoon.
The 152 is less stable, but has a considerable sustained turn-rate advantage over either plane.
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On the 51D's subject...I took it up for the first time in probably a year or two. I got 14 kills easy, no rearms, no vulches. It seemed like Easy mode to me...
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BNZ - I don't think those, considered in the full picture of the N's envelope, add up to a more user friendly plane than the 51D and 152. The average player doesn't manage E like the jugs need for their better edge-riding performance to pay off compared to the 51D. It's a marginal advantage in practice, IMO. e.g. ... The N's performance compared to the D, at MIL. The N is a sitting duck in no time.
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Biggest failing of a run-of-the-mill P fittyone pilot flying an N is the mind-numbing 900 feet-per-minute climb rate with a 40 min gas load and full load of ord (that's at 75% gas....take 50% internal and use nearly half your fuel reaching safe alt) Obviously grabs better sans ord, but most havent the patience to deal with it.....due to the IWANTITNOWNOTLATER contingent who populate the P51/Spit16-type planeset
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Biggest failing of a run-of-the-mill P fittyone pilot flying an N is the mind-numbing 900 feet-per-minute climb rate with a 40 min gas load and full load of ord (that's at 75% gas....take 50% internal and use nearly half your fuel reaching safe alt) Obviously grabs better sans ord, but most havent the patience to deal with it.....due to the IWANTITNOWNOTLATER contingent who populate the P51/Spit16-type planeset
Everything is fairly depressing if you're mud-moving Bj. :)
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The N is definitely not as user friendly as the 51...I don't think the extra ammo is considerable as a user-friendly feature, unless said user manages to dump the ammo on targets early on in the flight...
These are arguably, the two biggest characteristics to note. Yes, the P-47N has superior firepower over the Pony. Yes, the P-47N is more durable. Yes, the P-47N is practically as fast on the deck. Yes, the P-47N can outturn a P-51D. All of these characteristics should carry a caveat that, for the average MA pilot, the P-47N is a more difficult aircraft to fly. Firepower is only good if the bad guy is in front of you. Durability with a bad guy 400 out on your six doesn't count for much. The Jug doesn't have enough speed to purely outrun a Pony. The turning difference is fairly inconsequential for the average pilot.
Moot in a Ta-152 makes the Ta-152 a 5 ENY plane. Wolfala in a P-47N makes the Jug a 5 ENY plane. SkatSr in a P-51D makes the Pony a 5 ENY plane. You get the point. Joe Average in either a Ta-152 or P-47N makes those aircraft just average. Joe Average in a P-51D keeps the Pony an 8 ENY plane.
The last point I'll make is that Lusche's stats, while I believe ultimately are very valuable for comparisons, sort of pull up short for this one, since the Ta-152 is rarely used for air-to-ground, while the P-51D probably carries 30-40% air-to-ground sorties, and the Jug N easily carries over half air-to-ground sorties. If there was a way to isolate the air-to-air only use of each, I think the comparisons would be very illuminating.
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The last point I'll make is that Lusche's stats, while I believe ultimately are very valuable for comparisons, sort of pull up short for this one, since the Ta-152 is rarely used for air-to-ground, while the P-51D probably carries 30-40% air-to-ground sorties, and the Jug N easily carries over half air-to-ground sorties. If there was a way to isolate the air-to-air only use of each, I think the comparisons would be very illuminating.
It could be done (or better: "improved") to a certain degree. You could remove all kills of & deaths by ack & GVs from those numbers. Unfortunately this still doesn't take into account bomb loaden P-51s killed by fighters while trying to suicide-pork ords at a base.
But then, the ability to carry ords and to be able to move mud is a part of the ENY, and rightfully so.
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It could be done (or better: "improved") to a certain degree. You could remove all kills of & deaths by ack & GVs from those numbers. Unfortunately this still doesn't take into account bomb loaden P-51s killed by fighters while trying to suicide-pork ords at a base.
But then, the ability to carry ords and to be able to move mud is a part of the ENY, and rightfully so.
Wouldn't that be reflected by the OBJ rating, and not the ENY?
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Wouldn't that be reflected by the OBJ rating, and not the ENY?
Partly yes, but ENY does also determine the perks you get from bombing GVs. And unlike OBJ, ENY isn't just a perk gain factor, it's also a balancer - an ENY limiter kicks in when a side is getting too strong number wise.
The 110G2 didn't get it's ENY of 10 for being such a superb dogfighter ;)
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But then, the ability to carry ords and to be able to move mud is a part of the ENY, and rightfully so.
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But Lusche....it doesn't FEEL like I ought to get the same amount of perks for killing an La7 in a dogfight with a P-47N as one gets for killing a P-47N with an La7...
Bombs...bah, if they were removed from the game tomorrow, it would probably take me 3 weeks to notice.
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But Lusche....it doesn't FEEL like I ought to get the same amount of perks for killing an La7 in a dogfight with a P-47N as one gets for killing a P-47N with an La7...
I'm not saying I'm feeling like the P-47N's ENY is being "correct" ;)
But as I already said above, we have to take into account that ENY is also a kind of gameplay regulator (ENY limiter), and combat in MA isn't all about noble aerial duels alone
If tt were, we would have immediatly start a campaign for getting the 110G ENY to 30 :D
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Took the 152 up for awhile in the FurBlah lake for awhile.
I've got to say, I still feel like the way it retains E under Gs during maneuvering and competitive turn rate makes it superior as a fighter to the P-51D.
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and combat in MA isn't all about noble aerial duels alone
I'm trying to retain the illusion that AHII still *is* about aerial combat. :devil
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we have to take into account that ENY is also a kind of gameplay regulator (ENY limiter)...
So what you're saying is that the 5 ENY on the Jug is because everyone picks it to bomb-truck with, and not because it has some special, 5 ENY, air-to-air magic? Seems like anyone who flies the Jug N for air-to-air is getting penalized. If this is true, it makes me scratch my head when I see a 35 ENY (or whatever it is) on the FW-190A8, for example.
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the way it retains E under Gs during maneuvering and competitive turn rate makes it superior as a fighter to the P-51D.
It's not a user friendly package. The 51 is more agile at speed (no compression to speak of compared to the 152), and it beats the 152 easily with 1 notch of flap in a knife fight. Average players flying the 152? They snap roll it all over the place. No way out of the tail spin for them. 10/15 seconds of inconsistent (and for the 30, unpredictable) bullet stream is no godsend.
The 51 is like a honda VFR.. simple and docile.. The 152's quirks only make sense when you're further up the learning curve.