Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: JunkyII on February 03, 2009, 04:58:36 AM
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Lately I have been flying 109s almost exclusively, I love the accel and climb of the K4, and I know Im getting a ton better at aiming with that 30mm after 2 nights ago when I scored 6 kills in 3 straight sorties in it.( thats 6 kills a sortie ;) but I have heard the K4 isnt the best dogfighter, Im just wondering what the other 109s have as far as preformance compared to the K4 (what they can do better) so I can use this in my flying because I dont notice a difference other then speed honestly :o
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The G14 is probably the best 109 for pure dogfighting. It has a slightly slower climb rate than the K4, and it doesn't seem to do as well in a rolling scissors (where i like to try to keep my fights). I like K4 because if you ever get into a complex engagement, you can simply point your nose up and your off and away.
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If you're used to flying the K4 take up the F4. It feels like a litte German zeke.
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IMO the K4 is the best for the tater. If I fly the G14 its gonna be packing the 20mm. :aok
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109E is a nippy turner
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The only thing you really need to know about the 109 is that the faster they get, the worse they turn.
I take up a G2 for CV based fights where the CV puffy ack keeps you pinned under 3K anyway forcing you to turn your way out of trouble rather than head for the clouds. It also seems to be faster than everything that comes off a CV deck, typically (especially when they're trucking ord or not bothering to climb much).
For everything else I like the K4. It's sheer brute force makes it, in my opinion, the best fighter in the game. It can get you into and out of almost any situation you can think of and still take a bit of damage if it has to. If I'm flying into a big red dar-bar I don't hesitate to take the K4. It may not be the easiest plane to kill with (particularly at high speeds) but it will get you home safely if things turn a dark shade of brown. It is also one of the most difficult gunning platforms too, if you're unfamiliar with it, so it's god-like flying ability doesn't always get you the kill.
I think the K4 turns well enough to keep most aircraft honest and rockets away from anything that eats it in a turn, so it makes it the most fun fighter in the game for me.
Use of flaps in turn fights is nothing short of absolutely essential, as is careful throttle control. The torque of the engine really can pull you off a target and allow them to slip away in tight turns at stall speeds (particularly if you get stuck turning right... always go left if you're dictating the turns).
The 109 is not a plane that you simply jump into and have boundless success in, unless you're flying against complete 'tards. To go into a 1v1 with a skilled pilot and come out on top it really requires a combination of finesse and brute force that is not always plainly apparent.
Keep at it, the 109 is one of the most fun aircraft to fly in this game. It makes you work for it and that makes the kills all the more enjoyable.
I had a great little fight yesterday.... High pony came in with a strong E advantage, proceeded to merge and moved to climb and make slashing attacks. (Which is exactly what I would have done). After the second or third pass, each of which I turned hard into to keep his guns just off me and put me in a position to come around behind, he went to climb back around behind me in something like a spiral climb. I popped 1 notch of flaps for about a second, then pulled them back up, WEP on and nose up in a hard right-turn... took a glancing shot from low six (I had no visual on him, I just 'felt' where he would be) and snapped off 4 cannon rounds. They hit and broke the Pony in half. The guy in the pony couldn't beleive it. :lol :salute (nor could I, actually, he is a good stick and one of the top 3 best fights I've had in AH was a 2v2 against him... Pony Ds vs Fw 190D9s on the deck for a solid 5 minutes. Absolutely incredible stuff.)
It was one of those lucky shots that you meant every part of but still didn't think you'd make it. It's merges like that, where you start at distinct disadvantage against a good stick and manage pull that perfect reversal and land the perfect shot that really make the K4 magic for me.
That's another thing about the 109s I like.... there is no spraying with those guns. You don't hose down targets like you do with the .50cals.... It's just surgical. I've always said that you 'stab' with the 109 rather than shoot. It's a street-brawling knife-fighter and it rules.
The last thing is that most people suck in it, so only a small group of people stick with it and really make it shine.
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very awesome description, Xasthur. right on the money!
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These guys like Xasthur come on here and write descriptions like that and it makes me want to go home "sick" from work so I can play, without interruption, while the wife isn't home.. :furious
Spot on, X.
The K-4 is a BEAST.
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Yes the K4 is a beast, but not many fly it properly, it takes patience and skill. I would suggest the f4 for most just venturing into the 109 plane set. Then work up to the k4, it can be an extremely deadly plane.
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but I have heard the K4 isnt the best dogfighter, Im just wondering what the other 109s have as far as preformance compared to the K4 (what they can do better) so I can use this in my flying because I dont notice a difference other then speed honestly :o
It depends on what you mean by "dogfighter." If you want a 109 that turns well, then you should go with the F-4, but for anything other than flat turns the K-4 is the best 109. The one drawback is the MK 108 cannon. 6 kills in a 109K-4 is nothing to sneeze at, but with many other aircraft there's ammo left over after 6 kills. That said, the 109s with the MG 151 don't have a long ammo clip either, but they're a lot easier to hit with. If you ever get tired of aiming the MK 108 the G-14 can be a good alternative.
In case you don't know, the rack for the drop tank slows you down, so don't take e.g. 50% fuel + dt in the 109.
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If you are a sniper with .50s or Hizookas, trying to aim the tater gun may make you very sad. :(
If however, you have to damn near fly up their tailpipe to hit anything anyway, and are used to 2-3 kills per ammo load anyway, you make like it. :D
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I don't find the 30mm that difficult to shoot, just one round from that sucker and the other plane is either really badly banged up or its going down, usually one round to a wing rips the wing right off.
k-4 imo is the best dogfighter, it just flys like a dream, nimble, fast, juts dont dive too steeply and you'll be ok (thats the only real flaw, the controls locking up around 400mph or so)
oh yeah and junky check out the aircraft and vehicles forum I had made a thread on 109s a while back and got a storm of replies and comparisons and charts and what have you
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G14 is a sweet bird. Vary good dog fighting bird that i have a tough time.
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If I am going up into the air looking for a dogfight, I'll take the F-4 or G-2. They turn well and seem to be a bit more stable in flight. The single 20mm and dual 30 cals are marginal for firepower, but will get the job done. Dont plan on getting too many snap shot kills though. They are a well tuned machine if speeds are kept between 250 and 400mph. Get above or below and you've lost your edge, imo.
If I am chasing buffs, I'll grab the G14 and take up the 3/20mm and a DT. The WEP lasts forever it seems. The K4 is a beast, but is more one dimentional, imo. Plus, unless you're a crack shot with the 30mm your stay will be short.
Throttel control. Rudder control. Snap and stall turns. If all of those can be dealt with and implemented on a regular basis then the 109x is a great plane and can suprise a lot of people, escpially the La7, Spit16, and George dweebs. The worst 109 for air to air is the G-6. It handles like a pig for some reason.
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It depends on what you mean by "dogfighter." If you want a 109 that turns well, then you should go with the F-4, but for anything other than flat turns the K-4 is the best 109.
+1.
Don't confuse flat turns with "dogfighting ability."
In almost any situation, although the F 'turns better' than the K, the K will eat it simply because the power to weight ratio allows it to dictate the vertical which is, in most fights, the difference-maker.
They are all great planes, for sure.
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109F is my personal favorite, and also one of the best looking planes in game
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109G6. Get used to it and you'll never fly any other 109. I promise you. Fly it's strengths and learn it's weaknesses and ya won't die. :salute
Hardest of the 109s to master but once you do, it's a expert killer with the cowling MGs.
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109G6. Get used to it and you'll never fly any other 109. I promise you. Fly it's strengths and learn it's weaknesses and ya won't die. :salute
Hardest of the 109s to master but once you do, it's a expert killer with the cowling MGs.
Agreed on all points.
- oldman
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The worst 109 for air to air is the G-6. It handles like a pig for some reason.
Oh realy? Who can fly in a 3v1 and make it out of it in a G6? G6 is one of the best turners, as long as you know how to use it. I like to call it a "one sided plane" because of its high ability to only turn to the left side. That is the side of a torque, if I'm not mistaken. I've said it in the past, and I keep saying it, takes six shots to kill a plane in a G6. That works almost every time you get a shot on a plane.
K4 is a good plane, but its a hard to get in a turn fight with. I most fight with E agaist any plane in a K4, becasue of its acell. rate.
109F is the best turner of the 109s. You can out turn a spit if your good with it, and you can E fight with the best.
Every one else is in between those airplanes.
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109G6. Get used to it and you'll never fly any other 109. I promise you. Fly it's strengths and learn it's weaknesses and ya won't die. :salute
Hardest of the 109s to master but once you do, it's a expert killer with the cowling MGs.
Definitely a man's plane, but you are absolutely correct.
Once that learning curve is out of the way, she'll get ya home every time. :aok
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Oh realy? Who can fly in a 3v1 and make it out of it in a G6? G6 is one of the best turners, as long as you know how to use it. I like to call it a "one sided plane" because of its high ability to only turn to the left side. That is the side of a torque, if I'm not mistaken. I've said it in the past, and I keep saying it, takes six shots to kill a plane in a G6. That works almost every time you get a shot on a plane.
K4 is a good plane, but its a hard to get in a turn fight with. I most fight with E agaist any plane in a K4, becasue of its acell. rate.
109F is the best turner of the 109s. You can out turn a spit if your good with it, and you can E fight with the best.
Every one else is in between those airplanes.
Vater :aok
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I have a film of me and 2 F6Fs, not as much as three, but it still is an excellent film.
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I absolutely fell in love with the K4 the second week of tour 108. I think it is the most kills i've had in a single plane. All the Corsair variants combined has more but just love the big fireball when landing a hit on a fighter. I've shot down 2 tempests in the last 10 days cause they weren't giving the K4 any respect of how well she can accelerate back into the fight. Both kills came from 600-800 range. You totally get excited when you hit your opponent with sniperlike accuracy. I love the Corsair but when you need alt fast for incoming K4 is my ride. I think I impressed some of my squaddies after the 2nd week flying it cause they started to up in it with me. Its an addictive plane when you start landing the kills. I just need to learn the throttle control better cause way too often controls get sluggish. I need to spend a little time with some great K4 or 109 sticks to help me. Can anyone suggest some squads or individuals that would be willing? Couple of weeks ago ran 2 fellers that were in a German squad and had a blast fighting them. I got owned but I wish I could remember who they were. They were complete gentlemen. At the time I didn't think I'd stick with the K4 so I didn't think about it.
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The 109G series is my favorite... the G2 and the G6 are very close in performance, which for both is awesome and well rounded. For me the G6 is even a bit more stable, I prefer the way it flies to the G2. However, guns aside the G2 does have a small but definite edge on the G6. Guns aside, that is... I like the added firepower of the upgraded cowl guns.
The G14 is a very flexible late war fighter, with the 20mm, 30mm, and 20mm trio packages, as well as it's ordinance options. Generally, I like to use the MG151 for fighters, 3 MG151's when I know I'm going to encounter almost only bombers under 20k, or BnZ, and the MK108 for mixed fighting and high altitude buff interception. The G-14 is a pig at high altitudes with gondolas (as is the G6, for that matter).
I also like the F a lot. It's just a well balanced, great performing, beautiful aircraft.
I don't like to fly the K as much as the others, it's a bit 'uber' IMO. Extremely fast, high rate of climb, etc. I also don't like the MK108 as much as the MG151. It's the easiest 109 to use effectively IMO.
If it weren't for it's lack of roll rate and MG/FF's I'd like the E a lot more than I do, but it's still fun to take up occasionally and TnB.
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109G6. Get used to it and you'll never fly any other 109. I promise you. Fly it's strengths and learn it's weaknesses and ya won't die. :salute
Hardest of the 109s to master but once you do, it's a expert killer with the cowling MGs.
+1
Unstoppable 109, best dogfighting 109. Me and Sunsfan did some experiments and even though the G2 on paper is faster and has a better turn radius, the G6 outperforms it. Don't even think about taking the gondies <G>
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...even though the G2 on paper is faster and has a better turn radius, the G6 outperforms it.
What's your definition of performance?
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The G6 is more stable at stall speeds from our test's, the G2 has a mean snapstall in a rolling scisors.
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Yea, i have a film where i am shooting nose up in a stall at about 50-100MPH controlling the stall while aiming. Takes some practice but ya can fight with ya nose up to very low speeds. Will upload soon.
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The G6 is more stable at stall speeds from our test's, the G2 has a mean snapstall in a rolling scisors.
Yeah, I never understood this.
The G2 is definately more unstable than the G6.
However by the same token, I feel that the G14 is more stable than the K4.
With all the aerodynamic disadvantages that the 6 and 14 have over the 2 and 4, respectively, I figure it should be the opposite.
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I think it might be the torque of the bigger engines.
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I think it might be the torque of the bigger engines.
The G-6 and G-2 have the exact same engine.
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than it must be because the G6 is heavier, and is able to control the power better.
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Ummm...does this mean that the same effect could be created in the G2 simply by reducing power?
It reminds me of folks talking about the mild torque effect in a P-47 or F4U...well yeah...its because the engine has got too much airplane attached to it, and you pay for that "mildness" in climb and acceleration numbers. :devil
than it must be because the G6 is heavier, and is able to control the power better.
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Ummm...does this mean that the same effect could be created in the G2 simply by reducing power?
It reminds me of folks talking about the mild torque effect in a P-47 or F4U...well yeah...its because the engine has got too much airplane attached to it, and you pay for that "mildness" in climb and acceleration numbers. :devil
Reducing power sounds simple enough, but it's doesn't matter in a rolling scissor( happens most of the time your fighting someone with the same skill level as you). In a R.S. you need to throttle back coming down. If both planes are throttling back going down, than the G2 is still gunna have more torque at idle throttle thus giving the adv. to the most stable plane, in this case the G6.
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:aok lot of good info, im gunna try to use it tonight ty :salute