Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: sunfan1121 on February 05, 2009, 07:55:40 AM
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What merge serves you best? Is it a long extended E merge, or is a quick merge to play the angles?
My favorite is a extended flat turn, then a quick immel. So what's yours?
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put on left blinker, wait for opening, and merge into left lane. :aok
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What merge serves you best?
When the ground merges with me.
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my preferred tactic is to boom by at a zillion miles a minute pull up roll left realize my opponent is already there................up new plane
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Barrel-roll to dodge the inevitable HO then wing it from there.
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I dont like to pull the same thing all the time, You never know what your going to get with me, it will be either sublime or hopeless.
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Anything that avoids the H.O.
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It depends.
Is he higher or lower? Faster or slower? How does his airframe match my own? What has he been doing? How's my altitude? My speed? What's his psych state?
All these things get mashed together in a kind of nebulous stage. I will merge to force the fight to my fight, or to take advantage of an E advantage. Or to force a move to create an Energy parity if at a disadvantage. :)
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Dive to get some speed, force them to miss whatever ho they try, auger as I've hit compressability - up and try again.
;)
Wurzel
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What merge serves you best? Is it a long extended E merge, or is a quick merge to play the angles?
My favorite is a extended flat turn, then a quick immel. So what's yours?
i tend to mirror merges i see the other guy doing, and hopefully just do it slightly better. My only hope for any merge, if possible, is to have speed around 350-450, allowing numerous options. failing that, i just react, anticipate and hope i do better.
in a "duel" setup, all i can suggest ya'll do is vary your merge.. predictability kills.
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Depends on if I just put on clean underwear as to how I will merge.
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SunSfan,
Mine is a semi immel/flat.
That being said, I like different merges as some apponents have to be approached differently. So I have to do a complete flat at times, fake left/right, double immel, immel with rudder, ect..
I see guys that tend to have just 1 merge but after a while it catches up to them.
My opinion only guys. :salute
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i tend to mirror merges i see the other guy doing, and hopefully just do it slightly better. My only hope for any merge, if possible, is to have speed around 350-450, allowing numerous options. failing that, i just react, anticipate and hope i do better.
in a "duel" setup, all i can suggest ya'll do is vary your merge.. predictability kills.
You and I need to duel. My merge is basically the same style as yours by the way you speak. Even in duels i Try to mirror the other guy's merge and try to do it better. The 1st merge I merge my way, if I defeat my opponent with that merge I stick with it.
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Assuming 109.
1.) Dive for speed.
2.) Left wing roll-over to avoid HO and merge beneath EAC.
3.) Slow, left wing spiral climb.
4.) Approach stall, 100% right rudder, 100% right aileron, 20% nose up elevator, reduce power, deploy flaps full.
5.) Await opponent stall.
6.) Increase power, 100% left rudder, 100% left aileron, 50% nose up elevator, increase power, retract flaps.
7.) Nose over left wing/shoulder.
8.) Saddle up.
9.) Waste all my taters on one warping EAC.
10.) RTB and AFK beer.
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depends on what Im fighting.
I usually go with a quick immelman.
Sometimes, a really slow Immelman, if I can Outclimb the guy.See if he will follow up.
Or a double immelman, but its not my favorite
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put on left blinker, wait for opening, and merge into left lane. :aok
you actually wait for an opening?
accelerate down the ramp, be sure you're above the highway speed........your opening will already be there.
:D :noid
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Assuming 109.
1.) Dive for speed.
2.) Left wing roll-over to avoid HO and merge beneath EAC.
3.) Slow, left wing spiral climb.
4.) Approach stall, 100% right rudder, 100% right aileron, 20% nose up elevator, reduce power, deploy flaps full.
5.) Await opponent stall.
6.) Increase power, 100% left rudder, 100% left aileron, 50% nose up elevator, increase power, retract flaps.
7.) Nose over left wing/shoulder.
8.) Saddle up.
9.) Waste all my taters on one warping EAC.
10.) RTB and AFK beer.
:aok
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What's a merge????????/ :uhoh
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What's a merge????????/ :uhoh
that explains allot.
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I'm with shane on this one, I try to mirror, but sometimes I like to dip down and bring it over the top. It all depends on the situation really, but in a nutshell, I like to force rolling scissor action.
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I don't fly the mossie...but it provides a fun noob move (not that I approve of this stuff). Set your convergence on the .303's out to 650 and then throttle back to about 150IAS and open up with the bb's at 2.0 or so (tracers off). As soon as you see the first flash cut throttle all the way and watch the guy on the other end flop/evade/lead turn. Now vs a good stick the HO attack is a sure way to die but the threat of the mossies 20mm and its perception of speed often push a good stick into an aggressive counter. The aggressive nature of the evasion from the assumed 20mm rounds and the desire to spank the offending noob often generate a move that relies on regaining visual in the midst of the lead turn...which normally occurs just about 200 yds in front of the lumbering mossie. I once tucked in under a C -hog and flew formation while he kept jerking the plane around looking for me. since it was FT**** I had to let him go or i'd have heard about it on 200 for a month :D
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What ever seems to be appropriate for the moment.
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Humble, thats just harsh :rofl
Wurzel
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Humble, thats just harsh :rofl
Wurzel
hehe it is when it works...of course U can get spanked also:)
I thought I'd throw it in for fun. The truth is that the merge is situationally dependent and not even "mirroring" works vs a superior plane. To win a merge you need to counter the other guy by either flying to his weakness or somehow encouraging him to fly to your lesser strength with his greater weakness. Thats probably why I love to tool around in birds like the A-20 or SBD (D11 is also great choice). In effect the fight is set in the mind game of the merge and your normally looking 3-4 moves out. Now obviously a good stick can refuse the merge and wear you down but I've had some truly stellar fights with slap and others who will give me a punchers chance. Win. lose or draw you can end up with fights that push the edge of your understanding of geometrical ACM (vs just ride the edge), lift vector management etc...
The flip side is the gamey stuff above where your influencing the merge via "mind@#$%" for fun occasionally.
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Merge? I thought everyone just flew straight at you shooting. :confused:
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Avoid the HO, extend slightly nose up and split S back once he's out 1.5 and re-merge my way.
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Vertical, its the shorter way around the circle, especially if you start your Immel from under their nose as they are diving towards you (they are gaining E at this point which will extend their turn radii). Keep enough E to afford a second Immel, if necessary. If the bogy zooms, forget the second Immel, extend, regain your E, and setup for scissors/rolling scissors as you now have a BNZ fight on your hands.
I usually let the bogy look at my 6 since he/she has already proven they will just zoom in a head on engagement, head on being in front of the 3/9 line. Then try to sucker them into scissors/rolling scissors. Why scissors? 'Cause my ride of choice is the FW :D (It rolls the fastest and bleeds E like a stuck pig, the two best qualities for a successful scissors.)
A vertical FW will be pointed to the other side of the circle (that's usually where the bogy is, btw :D) before any flat turning ride (exceptions being Zekes and Hurris, but then you just zoom them, or remember earlier "Keep enough E to afford a second Immel, if necessary.")
There are a high percentage of people who think most any other ride will out turn the FW, and they will in a flat turn, but fortunately the flat turn isn't the only way and again a well flown vertical FW will beat almost any other ride to the other side of the circle.
One other advantage to flying the FW, cannons. Just a pinch between the cheek and gum (fuselage and wingroot) and BOOM! :D In other words, its a great snapshot plane and generally what goes down vs a FW comes back up. If they decide not to counter with an Immel of their own then its time to run 'em down and saddle up or head back over the top. This is where it is handy to learn if your ride can perform a second Immel and if so what speed is needed to do so?
:salute Happy Merging!
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I usually start with a combat merge. Basically a immel on a 45 degree slant as i watch what the other pilot is doing. I like to fly lag as it makes most guys try to turn tighter to get guns on you, usually they try to pull a ho shot. Then is when I do a hi yo yo or another immel. I almost never do a split S. That always ends in trouble if the other guy is half way competent.
The other option is one I learned from Murdr. Why merge?
Let the guy think he is sneaking on your six. pull a flat turn with a barrel roll. LOL its always nice when you get a bullet right in the canopy and they go poof.
Another fun one i like to use against 190s is hard flat turn on the deck then basically a flat scissors. Most try to hard to get a gun solution and snap roll right into the ground.
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Avoid the HO, extend slightly nose up and split S back once he's out 1.5 and re-merge my way.
BUT that far out, don't you give him another chance to ho ya again?
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If the guy your fighting has 1/2 a clue he won't HO on any merge, puts you in a disadvantageous position.
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If the guy your fighting has 1/2 a clue he won't HO on any merge, puts you in a disadvantageous position.
If the other guy is working for an angle on the merge and doesnt HO, I put my feet back on my rudder pedals and sit up a little straighter. :aok
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the reality is that its all "read and react", if we look at Dano's comments as an example...
He's describing a very correct merge for a 190 or jug....now the flip is that the correct defense can easily be to present that flat turn and convert to a low yoyo. bluekitty and greebo are two of the best at setting this up (shawk in c hog also). The goal being to sequence the fight so that the con is nose down and pulling for the perceived shot but aborts to the vertical while the "victim" has gone nose down and has the E to convert a 400-600 yd pop up shot...its all games within games at that level. Meanwhile a good stick like Dano will abort the pass early and hang on the prop to play whack a mole on the pop up...while the con has converted to an oblique 2 circle fight to meet the threat going up...which forces Dano to counter and now you have a fight....and just as both guys really get going some noob comes in to swoop and killshoots Dano as he fires a golden bb canopyshot, misses his shot on the bogie and lawndarts but causes a collison that augers our "con"....welcome to the MA :O
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The first paragraphs of both Dano's and Sonic's post are concepts newbies and noobz alike should take note of.
The truly good pilots in this game not only fly their own plane, but also their opponent's. Think about it. :aok
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I just twist my stick while moving it up and down, when I get excited----> I do it faster :D
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I just twist my stick while moving it up and down, when I get excited----> I do it faster :D
had i never seen you flying by i would at first have taken this to be a not-so subtle masterbation joke, but i ve seen you fly so i know its the truth! :rofl :rofl
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Triple Immel is fun sometimes, usually always results in the other guy stalling out as if he tries to match. Cool thing, you only need around only need 350mph IAS to pull one off in a P-38.
ack-ack
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had i never seen you flying by i would at first have taken this to be a not-so subtle masterbation joke, but i ve seen you fly so i know its the truth! :rofl :rofl
you're my inspiration baby :aok bring more deuces :rofl :rofl
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I just twist my stick while moving it up and down, when I get excited----> I do it faster :D
careful there dude......would be embarrassing explaining that in the ER. :D :rofl :noid
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Ram!
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in all seriousness.....i know TO merge, but never know just exactly HOW to merge, till i see what the other guy is doing. once i see, i do what i think feels right for the situation. sometimes i'm right, and quite often, i'm wrong. as long as it ends up in a fun fight, it's all good.
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Decide what you want to do after the merge and how to merge should be fairly easy to figure out.
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in all seriousness.....i know TO merge, but never know just exactly HOW to merge, till i see what the other guy is doing. once i see, i do what i think feels right for the situation. sometimes i'm right, and quite often, i'm wrong. as long as it ends up in a fun fight, it's all good.
Use these as a building block.
Mastering the Merge (http://www.netaces.org/mastermerge/mastermerge.htm)
Opening Moves (http://www.netaces.org/openmove/openmove.htm)
Lead Turns (http://www.netaces.org/leadturn/leadturn.htm)
Read those articles and it will give you the necessary foundation to build on.
ack-ack
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BUT that far out, don't you give him another chance to ho ya again?
I don't know if your being sarcastic or you want me to emphasis.
There are a few ways to maneuver after the initial merge. Sometimes I'll let what I see him do in the last 1/2 second before we pass determine what i will do in response to it.
If he comes in from a higher angle and appears to be looking for the HO ( which is 70% of time) I do my best to avoid and pull up slightly while extending. I fully expect him to do an Immel which 70% of the time they will do and continue to extend slightly nose up. Once he's lost some speed and following about 1.5 out or so I'll split S or wing over (+2.0 or further) and gain speed for the next maneuver usually coming up under him before another HO shot can be acquired. He normally tries another Immel and at that point i catch him in vertical scissors either looking for the snap or lead shot...or whatever I can use to get on his six as our fight continues.>> throt and rudder management.
Everyone has there own ways but I normally let my opponent decide by judging his speed, angle of attack and what i see he might attempt to do as we pass. I don't think there is any one sure way to do it that fits every time.
(http://www.apstraining.com/images/split_s.jpg)
(http://www.nasascale.org/maneuvers/wingover.gif)
(http://[img]http://www.nasascale.org/maneuvers/immelm2.gif)
(http://www.nasascale.org/maneuvers/lazy_e4.gif)
(http://www.nasascale.org/maneuvers/cuban_7.gif)[/img]
(http://www.combataircraft.com/tactics/images/high_g_berral_roll.jpg)
(http://www.combataircraft.com/tactics/images/scissors.jpg)
(http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:Fb7EaSrAoShbPM:http://www.sci.fi/~fta/5-6.gif)
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Like moot said, make sure you you choose your merge for the way you want to fight. Each merge in the pictures above, has a corresponding pourpose.
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I don't know if your being sarcastic or you want me to emphasis.
There are a few ways to maneuver after the initial merge. Sometimes I'll let what I see him do in the last 1/2 second before we pass determine what i will do in response to it.
If he comes in from a higher angle and appears to be looking for the HO ( which is 70% of time) I do my best to avoid and pull up slightly while extending. I fully expect him to do an Immel which 70% of the time they will do and continue to extend slightly nose up. Once he's lost some speed and following about 1.5 out or so I'll split S or wing over (+2.0 or further) and gain speed for the next maneuver usually coming up under him before another HO shot can be acquired. He normally tries another Immel and at that point i catch him in vertical scissors either looking for the snap or lead shot...or whatever I can use to get on his six as our fight continues.>> throt and rudder management.
Everyone has there own ways but I normally let my opponent decide by judging his speed, angle of attack and what i see he might attempt to do as we pass. I don't think there is any one sure way to do it that fits every time.
(http://www.apstraining.com/images/split_s.jpg)
(http://www.nasascale.org/maneuvers/wingover.gif)
(http://[img]http://www.nasascale.org/maneuvers/immelm2.gif)
(http://www.nasascale.org/maneuvers/lazy_e4.gif)
(http://www.nasascale.org/maneuvers/cuban_7.gif)[/img]
(http://www.combataircraft.com/tactics/images/high_g_berral_roll.jpg)
(http://www.combataircraft.com/tactics/images/scissors.jpg)
(http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:Fb7EaSrAoShbPM:http://www.sci.fi/~fta/5-6.gif)
nosir....no sarcasm intended. i see em try to reset for the ho every time i let them that far away from me. that's the only reason i was asking.
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Thanks for those links Ack Ack, in all seriousness, I merge depending on what the nme is doing, and generally try and dominate him from there (not that I'm that good, but I try every single time)
Wurzel
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Use these as a building block.
Mastering the Merge (http://www.netaces.org/mastermerge/mastermerge.htm)
Opening Moves (http://www.netaces.org/openmove/openmove.htm)
Lead Turns (http://www.netaces.org/leadturn/leadturn.htm)
Read those articles and it will give you the necessary foundation to build on.
ack-ack
thanks dude.....bookmarked for lunchtime reading. :aok
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nosir....no sarcasm intended. i see em try to reset for the ho every time i let them that far away from me. that's the only reason i was asking.
Rgr, i probably got my #'s wrong... just taking a guess since I'm not actually up. Like most, I fly by feel and what I can predict. Once you pass them by your moving pretty fast and 800 comes quick....it's sometime after that. Doing wing overs when they are 800 out sometimes gets me killed and split S's might still need more room for me to come out on top ....with spits or ki 's that is.
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any merge that has me still flying after 2 turns....
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any merge that has me still flying after 2 turns....
wait?!
you're supposed to turn?? :noid
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given all of the good comments/411 I thought i'd tag a few clips on here for any newer sticks (or those who really arent merge/"duel" types) and want an overview of the merge tactics and how they apply to a fight. Obviously for a true merge we need a 1 on 1 and relative E states within a reasonable range.
While good merge technique is always important its essential if you are in the "inferior" plane or position. The bigger the disadvantage the more important the technique is. The goal is to entice a foe to trade his superiority for what appears to be a winning solution. Ideally the merge itself creates an exploitable positional advantage that you can maintain and capitalize on. The better you make things look to the bogey the more aggressive he'll be and the greater advantage you can gain. I've always felt this is the single best "training clip" I ever happened to film. No merge is perfect but this has the clear displacement, hook, "bait" and reverse with good in/out of plane transitions tied to lag/lead, flaps & throttle combined with "good" [for me at least] gunnery. http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/P40vN1ki.ahf
This clip is from the 2nd Rangoon frame, I've left it unedited so its a bit long (11 min or so). I think its interesting from a merge view point since it shows both an initial E merge and fight which later sets up an angles merge from a very similar"look". The context of the scenario provides a "real" backdrop...at this point I'm the only scout left and we're both within the context of a bigger picture...http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/Rangoon/frame%202/
Out of all thats here I think the comments on "fly your plane and the other guys" are the most important to learn.
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Thanks Humble, something to look forward to when I get home ;) :salute
Wurzel
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this is very useful information thank you guys AkAk that page is a goldmine. Oh and thank you suns for the impromptu 1v1s whompin the other night.....studied the films of that merge and employed it a bit....works quite well.
Y'all muppets have been very kind in sharing the wonders of the 1 oh nine.....fun planeset to learn and fight in. I preciate it.
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You guys think too hard. Avoid the HO, run away, wait 'til they engage with someone else, and then pick 'em.
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Assuming 109.
1.) Dive for speed.
2.) Left wing roll-over to avoid HO and merge beneath EAC.
3.) Slow, left wing spiral climb.
4.) Approach stall, 100% right rudder, 100% right aileron, 20% nose up elevator, reduce power, deploy flaps full.
5.) Await opponent stall.
6.) Increase power, 100% left rudder, 100% left aileron, 50% nose up elevator, increase power, retract flaps.
7.) Nose over left wing/shoulder.
8.) Saddle up.
9.) Waste all my taters on one warping EAC.
10.) RTB and AFK beer.
:aok
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Assuming 109.
1.) Dive for speed.
2.) Dive for more speed.
3.) Dive for even more speed.
4.) Level out above tree tops.
5.) Jink left
6.) Jink right
7.) Pull nose up
8.) Push nose down
9.) Jink left - right - up - down
10.) Die
:D
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:lol
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The goal is to entice a foe to trade his superiority for what appears to be a winning solution. Ideally the merge itself creates an exploitable positional advantage that you can maintain and capitalize on. The better you make things look to the bogey the more aggressive he'll be and the greater advantage you can gain.
And that my friend is why you get a "punchers" chance when we fight. If I know it is you, or if after the merge I can see that the other guy knows what he is doing, my approach to the fight is completely different. What might appear to be an opportunity might really be a trap, and if the opportunity is not capitalized on then you are in deep poo, so cautious aggressiveness and careful decision making is a must.
Guys like you, Cobia, AKAK, Greebo and others present what appears to be a golden shot opportunity (the cheese in the trap) and once the opponent has committed, you easily spoil the opportunity and reverse the situation to your advantage and the next thing you know ... your in the tower.
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You guys think too hard. Avoid the HO, run away, wait 'til they engage with someone else, and then pick 'em.
yaknow........if that weren't so common, i'd have laughed at your joke. :noid