Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Sonicblu on February 05, 2009, 01:37:00 PM
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Can someone help with with a clearer distinction on the use of flaps.
1. Is there a point on the f4u1a where the flaps dont help turn or it becomes not worth it because of the drag?
2. How many notches of flaps do you guys use and in what situations?
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sonic if you see mntmn or skyrock in the ma's ask them to go to the da with you. those are 2 of the top f4u pilots that i can think of. im sure there are others that are good in the f4, but those 2 are the 2 that i know of that will politely and patiently help you out in the da.
good luck
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(http://www.badz.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/images/BBF4U1DFlaps.jpg)
The sweet spot for turn rate is two notches, but you can still tighten radius all the way down to full flaps.
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Sonic,
A lot is going to depend on the situation. In large, multi-plane engagements I don't want to use any more than one or two notches if I can avoid it, as it bleeds off too much airspeed. The Corsair turns VERY well with flaps, however except for the F4U-4 she has very poor acceleration so once you give up airspeed you're not going to have an easy time getting it back, and a slow Corsair is very vulnerable.
The turn radius is VERY small with full flaps, however the Corsair has a relatively low turn rate in this condition, so if you don't close the deal quick some opponents (especially Spitfires) will eventually get around on you despite your tighter radius. This largely depends on the cornering ability of your opponent.
I prefer keeping her fast, using one or two notches of flaps at the tops of loops and vertical extensions. The Corsair's E retention, top speed, and high-speed maneuverability puts her at the top of the pack in a fast engagement, so use this to advantage. Rudder especially is among the most effective of any other ship above 300mph, and there's only a handful of planes that out-roll her at high speed.
Also, an important consideration in the 1A specifically is fuel. She has an additional fuel tank in each wing over the 1D/C and 4. My usual practice is to take 75% fuel, burn off the left wing entirely, then switch over to main, leaving ~25% in the right wing. This helps balance the plane against engine torque and also give you a nice safety net in case your main tank gets punctured. You should never need a drop tank in the 1A, which is good, because the pylon costs you ~5mph even after the tank is dropped.
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clearly put gents!
One additional note I try to remember in any of the Hogs based on Saxman's statement about it's poor acceleration is : Keep enough alt that you can dive away if needed as they dive very well. Now if I could just make myself do what I say :(
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Well, those guys pretty much sum it up.
I use flaps pretty freely, but absolutely try to put them back up as soon as possible, and avoid getting myself in a position where I can't get some speed back. I really prefer to operate in the 175-275 range. I use them freely, but briefly.
The F4U will stay stable slow with full flaps, but gets to a point where you're far from effective. At that point I consider that I've really screwed up, and I'm left hoping the other guy screws up worse. For me the warning bells start going off any time I need to leave 3 (or more) notches down. I may not be dead or in big trouble at that point, but I will be soon if I don't make some quick adjustments.
I may go so far as to quickly drop 4-5 notches, but that genmerally leaves me in a do-or-die situation. For me to do that I'd better have a quick shot opportunity, and I'd better hit it.
My main use of flaps is to aid in nose-high reversals. I'll pull up at an angle, and drop a notch or two as I pull through the turn. As soon as I'm nose-low again I'll start bringing them back up. I may do that 20 times in a fight. My other big flap-usage time is in some version of a rolling scissors. I'll fly in lag pursuit, and drop flaps as needed to solidify that my opponent is pulling out in front, and then try to raise them so I have enough speed to catch/kill him as he pulls up, or stay with him if he dives out.
A big "hint" for me is the wing-wobble stall. Any time I get that I think "Oops, shoulda dropped another notch right before that happened". The other big hint is when they blow back up. I'm thinking "Oops, shoulda raised 'em... Killing my E by having flaps down as I accelerate..." Flaps for me are about a brief stability gain, or a brief aid in turning. Not about being able to fly slow. If I'm getting to the point where I'm getting slow and need another notch to stay stable, and then another, and then another- I'm in really big trouble.
If I'm getting to the point of being in the 200mph range, without the ability to finish the fight immediately, I'll generally break off at an opportune time (me nose-down, him nose-up, even if I'm low) dive and level to get back to around 225-250, and then turn back into him, or turn so he approaches me from the side so I can manipulate that into an overshoot. I really feel hamstrung if I'm loitering around the 140 mark. I need 130 to really do what I want to do, and 140 is close to dead for me.
My mentality in a fight is to try to get the other guy in front of me, rather than to try to get behind him. That's a pretty vague distinction, but it's how my mind works. To that end, the more he fears that I'll run away the better. So I'll present my tail in an effort to get him to go as fast as possible, and then give him my side-view, so he'll close rapidly while I can still maintain my speed. It's a way for me to get the overshoot but not be slow, so I can stay with him as he goes by. My mentality is that I want him fast enough to go past me, but I want to be fast enough to keep up when he does. I DO NOT want to slow down so he'll overshoot, I want him to speed up...
I'm also generally going to avoid being directly under anyone. I always try to maximize horizontal seperation, and minimize vertical. When the bad guy dives in I'll turn back under him, hoping to maximize his speed in the dive and screw up his shot.
Pretty vague I guess, hope it helps anyway. Give me a holler sometime, we can go play in the TA.
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i only use flaps if i am runing into a mess of spits and zeeks or are landing
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Snip
Good write up. One question do you use CT or no.... do you toggle it off and on?
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Thanks for the help guys.
I will work on it, I seem to be getting all the flaps out and found that I can turn inside most spits however if they hit wep and climb out just alittle im at a hugh disadvatage.
I will work on keeping my energy up= fly the fight at a higher speed
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Good write up. One question do you use CT or no.... do you toggle it off and on?
I tend to turn it on and off in combat, especially to stabilize or center my trim when I'm taking a shot.
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I tend to turn it on and off in combat, especially to stabilize or center my trim when I'm taking a shot.
I was wondering because it feels like the ct fights the flaps more in the hogs than in a 38.
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I've never really noticed this. I find the F4U has a very strong tendency to pitch up on deployment of even one notch of flaps regardless of what the CT is doing, to the point that you REALLY need to time the flaps properly otherwise you can overshoot the turn and come around TOO much if you drop them too early.
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I've never really noticed this. I find the F4U has a very strong tendency to pitch up on deployment of even one notch of flaps regardless of what the CT is doing, to the point that you REALLY need to time the flaps properly otherwise you can overshoot the turn and come around TOO much if you drop them too early.
Turn off ct and try it. It really goes skyward.
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I use CT to quickly trim out if my thumb is not quick enough to do so...otherwise I use manual trim...and it depends upon the situation; mostly, I use both in conjunction with each other depending upon the situation and use one to override the other.
I have found that, at times, CT will be a detriment and negate my previous manual trim inputs and
cause the nose to pitch up when flaps have been deployed and trimmed manually.
As an example...manually trim a Corsair for landing with full flaps...and then, whilst in a good glide path, hit CT...then you will understand.
CT is not a "magic" trim...learn to use manual trim first; then learn when to use CT and override with manual trim; then learn to use CT in conjunction with manual trim and flaps at all speeds. Once you have done this you will begin to understand how to fly the F4U1A...and how the "Uber Flaps" work.
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I never really used CT or manual trim on a constant basis when engaged
I have always suggested others to trim any F4U series out in level flight at a cruise speed of 300 to 325 IAS and leave Combat Trim turned off
almost every individual who has learned to fly in this manner when flying the F4U has excelled in their abilities to make the f4U ( and actually a lot of other plane models ) in performing maximum maneuverability.......
if one was to look back and think about how one flew in WWII, a pilot was not sitting there constantly manipulating his Trim Tabs
and yes CT ( Combat Trim ), does work against you when getting slow and using flaps....... YMMV
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Don't forget loops.... Putting flaps down while pulling up and over can help close the deal on P38's that were getting the best of my F4U going vertical and then over.
Once the F4U begins going downward retract the flaps and you can close the deal.
My 2 cents. :aok
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I set my trim wheels to fly straight/level at about 300. I have ACT off by default, but have a button mapped so I can easily go back and forth with it. I do my "general" flying with ACT on, but turn it off when fighting, landing, damaged, etc.
I never adjust it during a fight, apart from toggling it on/off as necessary. If an opponent dives out and I'm going to pursue, I'll generally switch ACT back on, but if/when he breaks/reverses I turn it back off. I'll also make sure I have it off if I'm roping, stalling, etc. I don't necessarily switch it off immediately when I decide to fight. I may leave it on if the passes are gentle, fast, etc. When I decide to start getting serious the ACT gets turned off.
I'm not sure how much advantage that gives me, I just like the way the plane behaves better. My squadie never turns his ACT off (except if damaged or landing), and doesn't have any issues either...
I have it off by default mainly because coming out of auto-climb, auto-level, etc I prefer to be in manual mode.
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i understand that trimming is good, but i only know it to be good in situations like compressing. the corsair seems pretty stable so why would i take combat trimm off?
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i understand that trimming is good, but i only know it to be good in situations like compressing. the corsair seems pretty stable so why would i take combat trimm off?
ok.here is an example of using Combat Trim verses not using Combat Trim ( manual Trim per say )
you are fighting in the vertical and are coming over the top of a loop and as your opponent is viewing you fixing to ROPE him, he reverses and starts to dive away.......
with Combat Trim your plane takes a few seconds longer as CT ( Combat Trim ) moves in relation to your airplanes speed to stay in CALIBRATED TRIM
verses to have your plane Trimmed to a more neutral position ( example manually trimmed out for level flight 325 IAS and verify CT is turned off )
the plane that is trimmed to a more neutral setting is gonna gain speed faster........
also another example, you are in a slow speed fight, and you use CT....it is always trimming for you to keep your nose level/up to where using flaps becomes a fight within itself......making your NOSE "POP" up when you kick out a notch or another notch........
You want to have your plane ( any Plane ) trimmed to where you have to use a SLIGHT PULL on the stick to bring guns to bear, or obtain a shooting solution......... you never want your plane to be to where you are pushing on the stick to aim or fighting the CT to aim your guns.....
YMMV hope this helps
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Thanks Tc & Mtnman That was just the info I was looking for. <S>
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TC, when you state to trim the Hog at 300 to 325 mph range, do you mean before entering combat, I should trim my F4U as if it was at that speed range?
Because when I fly the P-38 or Spitfire, I trim to a practically neutral position right before entering combat. (on the elevators anyway).
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I take off and climb, then level out and build speed to about 300 (or 325, whichever you prefer). I then shut off the ACT, and trim ailerons and elevator to fly level "hands off" at that speed (NOT in auto-level while trimming). I then continue flying (but may go auto-level, or engage the ACT until I find a bad guy).
Now that my trims are set, all I need to do is turn the ACT off and the trims will go back to that pre-set point...
In the hog, I'll have a bit of right aileron and down elevator trimmed- I won't be at a neutral elevator setting, as that would cause my nose to pitch up at that speed.
Once you know where the trims should be visually on the indicators, you can set them there while at any speed. It's just easier to reach that speed first, and then trim for level flight.
Another option that I use (since I have rotary trim knobs) is to put little marks on the rotary knob itself, so I can put it there at any time, and put it back quickly if I bump it...
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TC, when you state to trim the Hog at 300 to 325 mph range, do you mean before entering combat, I should trim my F4U as if it was at that speed range?
Because when I fly the P-38 or Spitfire, I trim to a practically neutral position right before entering combat. (on the elevators anyway).
yes, pretty much the same thing, Pappy. When one is flying along in level flight you normally are around 300 to 325 +/- IAS speed......maybe a smidge faster......so when I am fixing to engage another opponent I will shoot to obtain this speed whether I am in level flight, or if I may need to dive slightly .....I will use either the manual trim keys or do a quicky by using the ACT ( CT ) keys turning them on then once reaching ym desired speed turning it back off.......
for me anyway I can tend to push the Hog harder and get more out of it instead of having Combat Trim turned on...... I use this in most all USA planes....... about the only time I will ever engage Combat trim or trim the elevators is when I am in a match up with the same plane type and I feel I am not gaining any more angles......but this is very seldom like 0.005% of the time.
sorry for the long rant, but is probably similar to how you described your way of flying the 38 or spitfire.......
if memory serves me right, mtnman, AKDogg and alot of others fly the Hog ( trimming it wise ) almost identically.......
hope this helps...
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I'm confused...
ACT vs CT...?
I use auto climb on speed to gain altitude (default)...then at altitude I engage auto level (default) and hold until I've the speed and altitude I want, and manually trim as necessary, in conjunction with manifold pressure and rpms, depending upon altitude and loadout, and then, I use auto angle to maintain a climb rate (500-1000 ft per minute) as I see fit.
I trim differently when in a heavy 100% fuel and ord loaded -1D Corsair than I do with a 25-50% fuel loaded, no Ord, -1, or -1A Corsair.
When you trim a Corsair (any model) to 300-325 IAS, does it matter what load and altitude you are at?
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I'm confused...
ACT vs CT...?
I use auto climb on speed to gain altitude (default)...then at altitude I engage auto level (default) and hold until I've the speed and altitude I want, and manually trim as necessary, in conjunction with manifold pressure and rpms, depending upon altitude and loadout, and then, I use auto angle to maintain a climb rate (500-1000 ft per minute) as I see fit.
I trim differently when in a heavy 100% fuel and ord loaded -1D Corsair than I do with a 25-50% fuel loaded, no Ord, -1, or -1A Corsair.
When you trim a Corsair (any model) to 300-325 IAS, does it matter what load and altitude you are at?
my apologies, I get confused when mtnman types ACT......... when I see ACT I am thinking Automatic Combat Trim, where as mtnman might be thinking Auto Climb Trim? I am not sure.......
to me ACT & CT is the same meaning ( Automatic Combat Trim ) I have never used the ACT abbreviation until this thread....... I either type Combat Trim, Auto Level/Autopilot or Auto Angle/ Auto Climb Speed and use CT as an abbreviation for Combat Trim
when I talk about level flight / cruising speed of 300 to 325 or 350 I am refering to a F4U ( any type ) that is in a clean configuration, no DT's ( or dropped DT's if I was carrying them ) and no ordanance....... the fuel load does not matter.....
alot of people practice often flying at 25% fuel load and fighting or flying at a maximum of 50% fuel load and fighting..
I highly recommend people to gain full potential to learn their plane with 100% and / or 75 % fuel loads and fight them this heavy........ for the simple fact you are not always going to be with a light fuel load say 50% or 25 %, and if you can learn to max maneuver your plane with 100% or 75% then flying with lesser fuel loads just adds icing on the cake for you to prevail......
hope this long rant helps clarify.....
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I almost always take the heavier fuel load in the 1A, anyway (generally 75%, but may take 100% if I'm expecting a longer sortie). It gives you longer loiter time and more gas if you take a hit to the main fuel. 25% in the right wing will get you about a sector or more on standard cruise speeds by itself and longer if you use what gas you have in the main first or if you dial your MAP and RPMs down even lower than cruise.
Learning fuel management in the F4U--particularly the 1 or 1A--is important. Pilots unfamiliar with her (especially who mostly use her to Jabo off the CV in a 1D or C) forget about the additional tanks on the 1 and 1A and often tend to underestimate her range, which while not QUITE Mustang-level is still VERY impressive (VMF-251 flew two very long-range escort missions in 1As and 1s in Frames 2 and 3 of the last FSO respectively, entirely on internal fuel. Only had one who ran out of gas before returning home and it was because he burned his wing tanks too low and took a main fuel hit). At 1.0 fuel burn the 1 and 1A have a combat radius of ~400 miles (800 miles round-trip) JUST on internal if you make use of cruise speeds. A 100-150 mile combat radius is probably a safe bet in the Mains, with plenty for operation at combat power. You should NEVER need a drop tank with the 1A unless you're flying some absurdly long sorties.
Also, if you fight the F4U fast the fuel load won't have as big of a negative impact on flight performance as it would if you're trying to dance low and slow with Spits (another good reason to keep the Hog at higher speeds). Not only that, but that extra weight will give you a little bit of help in the zoom (probably fractionally at best, but every little bit helps).
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Yup, sorry- ACT is "Auto Combat Trim" in my book.
I always lift with 100% fuel. Maybe twice per year I lift with 75%. I don't take a DT with the -1A, which is my normal ride. If I fly the -1C or -4 I take 100% with a DT. I just trim "close" until I drop the DT, and fly with Auto Combat Trim on until I ditch the DT.
I haven't flown with rockets or bombs for a few years, so I don't take them into consideration when I trim.
I generally trim it at 10-12K, but I tweak it a bit as needed. I don't necessarily set it and leave it. It actually becomes second nature to adjust trim without even really thinking about it.
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Be careful with trimming the plane. If you trim too much you will lose lift very easily. Go to the TA to test first. Additionally, my preference is to hit flaps only when I know it will bring me around quickly to my target. Then I quickly release them to gain speed. Of course that would depend if I killed my prey. I'm not a big fan of full flaps. However there are times that is necessary.
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Thanks again, Gents.
Mtnman, your mentality in dogfighting is absolutely superb. :aok