Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Hoffman on February 14, 2009, 01:01:21 PM
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Just a few minutes ago I was happily playing about in my P-51, staying above 5K and really just flying it safe in order to get a feel for it.
I ran into a lower alt spitfire 5 and made a mistake on the merge. There were other cons in the area and there was a friendly close enough to me that I thought he was going to go after the spitfire, so I dodged his first attack and ignored him to look around the battlefield. Only to spot the friendly diving off to go shoot at another P-51 3K distant, leaving me alone with a Spitfire 1.5 off my 6 and closing.
I immediately zoomed back up to alt, something close to 8-9K I don't recall exactly. But the Spitfire followed me just enough to start tossing rounds over my nose. I pulled into a right-hand climbing spiral figuring he's got to be at a lower E state than me and a right hand turn will bleed him faster than it will me and I'll be able to stall him out. Only he kept his spitfire 600-800 between my 4 and 5. He couldn't out-climb me, but I couldn't pull sharp enough to stall him out.
Since everytime he tried to shoot at me he missed I figured I'll just keep him there and drag him up to 20,000 feet where he couldn't breathe, wait for him to flutter and then go after him.
Needless to say we get to 20,000 feet and he's still there. Just close enough that I can't turn into him but just far enough away that he can't hit me. I also notice there's a P-38 and 109 climbing up to join the fight against me.
Since I can't shake the spit I put my nose down and run away, easily outrunning him and the other pursuers at altitude.
I dislike having to run away like that, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth and now I'm wondering if there was anything I could have done. If I hadn't been low on gas I probably would've stuck with it and kept climbing, and dodging until he ran out of gas. I know enough about spits to know they eat gas like crazy.
Is there really anything else I could have done?
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Although it's hard to tell without film, based on your description, if you were in a climbing spiral with him and hes was about 600 below you, I would have gone nose low about 90 degrees off his front (just to his side) and at about 100 above him pulled up and looped over. As you start to dive down, you're gaining E a lot faster then he does. He probably would have gone pure pursuit and put his nose on you has he saw you coming down in front of him, and then depending on timing, right before he would have got a shot, you pull up and loop over as high as you can. There really should be no way he could have followed you.
Hopefully you can sort of understand what I'm explaining. Take it FWIW though, some much better pilots will be in here soon enough.
Here's an example of what I was trying to say. I got myself into a bad position against mntman, and you can see at about 2:00 in I'm at slow doing 80, and then swing around about 70-90 degrees and dive down a little bit, bringing myself up to about 120, and then I loop over. I made a lot of mistakes, but that should give you an idea of what I'm talking about.
http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=1501e21753648728312dbd5f2bdc5062b253edade8781c535be6ba49b5870170
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I never go into a spiral climb after a zoom unless I know my plane has the edge in climb rate over my pursuer. Or unless I can already see the bandit wallowing and am sure of a stall. Why? By starting the spiral climb after the zoom you've negated your vertical advantage, and even if you have a slight IAS advantage at the onset of a spiral climb, the enemy plane with (in this case) a significant climb rate edge will always be able to keep the pressure on you, and keep getting shots on you.
This Spit 16 you were fighting (assuming a 16, since no other Spit holds E as well as you described) must have had a TON of smash to be able to immel 2k to your alt and then follow you another 4-5k vertical. Also, you must have only been around 300-325 mph. Assuming you are at full steam, no spit going less than 450 mph (after a dive) should be able to match what your defense was in this situation. Meaning your initial zoom was the right move. What I would have done differently, instead of the spiral climb after you saw he was keeping in the zoom, would be to go straight vertical and immel over the top. Let's face it, with both planes under 200mph and him holding constant ground, you're in no way going to outclimb in in a spiral climb. So might as well force his nose straight vertical if he wants to follow you, and hope his E state is such that a straight nose over top would force a stall.
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Trotter, he said it was a Spitfire 5. The P-51D outclimbs the Spit 5 below 10k ft, the Spit 5 is better between 10k and 15k ft, but the 51D is better again above 15k.
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I would simply have put a couple notches of flaps and made a slightly climbing turn to the right. Seeing as you were climbing, but closure was the same, you were higher and you could have utilized it by making the turn i explained. He would have had to climb the 600 ft or so just to get equal with ya, and by that time your wheeling around on his nice and slow spitty, which would pretty much hang there by this point. Have done this many tmes in jug and pony, they think they can turn inside of ya, but forget they still have to get there nose up pretty high, and will stall as you pull around on em. :aok
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Trotter, he said it was a Spitfire 5. The P-51D outclimbs the Spit 5 below 10k ft, the Spit 5 is better between 10k and 15k ft, but the 51D is better again above 15k.
Oh whoops! My bad, didn't notice he said Spit 5.
Well then, take my advice and apply it to cases of Spit16, 14, 8, or 9. Sorry about that.
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I'll see if I can get the film up in just a little bit, thanks for the advice guys.
*Edit* After going over the film I see what I did wrong.
I'm still learning the P-51 so I'm sure she can do alot more than what I'm pushing. I was flying too conservatively and missed my opportunity after his zoom climb to... I believe the term is yo-yo? over and push into him.
He was 1.5K behind me and alot slower than what I thought he was going. I was pushing 300 MPH and still about 20 degrees nose up at 10K, he had just zoomed to 10 from 6 and was going 180. All I had seen was that he had jumped to my altitude and closed a full kilometer of distance.(I have always been intimidated by Spitfires, so I probably put more into their abilities than they can actually do) Had I then pulled a sharp high-angle turn into him, which I had the speed and was already partly into the move to do, I would've forced him to either dive, head-on, or try and turn away from another pass. Then I would've easily had him going even slower and in worse position, likely stalling his aircraft out by pulling too hard on the stick.
Instead I let him recover enough speed and climbing power to barely keep with me in a spiral climb.
So those were my errors... Not aggressive enough and misjudging the other plane's speed. But... eh... I'll figure it out.
Thanks again for the replies.
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Trotter, he said it was a Spitfire 5. The P-51D outclimbs the Spit 5 below 10k ft, the Spit 5 is better between 10k and 15k ft, but the 51D is better again above 15k.
That is of course in some theoretical steady 1G climb, the Spitfire's insane ability to hold E in maneuvering throws a variable in.
Hoffman: One thing I will tell you is that the P-51D is not a great climber at all, but it can climb respectably at very fast airspeeds. For instance, at sea-level on MIL, you can set .speed for 300mph IAS and still be climbing at about 1,500fpm or so. This can force the choice on many slower planes of either chasing while you steadily gain an alt advantage OR climbing at which point they have given up the chase-they can't do both.
If you don't like running away, then I must suggest you get a plane other than the P-51D. It is inferior in the turn to the vast majority of common MA planes and not superior in climb/acceleration to many of the most popular at typical MA alts either. Its principal virtue relative most of the LW set is the ability to engage and disengage when it pleases, and thus deign to fight only from an energy or positional advantage. Another important virtue is relatively high top speed in MIL cruising flight and good energy retention, which in many cases can place you at an initial E-advantage over co-alt planes. Although note it takes seemingly *forever* in level flight to reach maximum cruising speed. A final virtue to consider is its views, guns, and stability. Although the guns are not the strongest in the game, if you are really good deflection shooting,especially at slightly longer than normal ranges, the doom of anything you attack from advantage will often be a foregone conclusion.
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Sounds like a damned boring fight to me. When he was 1.5K behind reverse him already and get the fight on before more show up....like they did. :lol Now you're really screwed because it's 3 on 1. Always nose on the opponent. It create angles and sets up shots. Your not going to get a shot if he's always behind you. Be aggressive and he'll freak out because he's not expecting a P51 to want to turn with him. Use those flaps, chop throttle, do whatever but mix it up. If you die you'll know what not to do next time.
No two fights are the same, so you won't find a "what to do list anywhere". Use ACM...YoYos, Split S, barrel rolls, scissors...etc. If you want to get good at this crap you have to fight. Leading a guy around the arena does nothing but tell him you're already beat. Turn around and show him that your P51 is boss and his Spitfire is junk!!! :rock :salute
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Sounds like a damned boring fight to me. When he was 1.5K behind reverse him already and get the fight on before more show up....like they did. :lol Now you're really screwed because it's 3 on 1. Always nose on the opponent. It create angles and sets up shots. Your not going to get a shot if he's always behind you. Be aggressive and he'll freak out because he's not expecting a P51 to want to turn with him. Use those flaps, chop throttle, do whatever but mix it up. If you die you'll know what not to do next time.
No two fights are the same, so you won't find a "what to do list anywhere". Use ACM...YoYos, Split S, barrel rolls, scissors...etc. If you want to get good at this crap you have to fight. Leading a guy around the arena does nothing but tell him you're already beat. Turn around and show him that your P51 is boss and his Spitfire is junk!!! :rock :salute
In fact, throw my response in the trash, this is it. Well put.
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Have a squaddie go with you to the DA/TA and rotate one using the spit5 and the other in a 51. See if you can come close to recreating the event. If you have film you can see the alt and speed of each plane. Then try a 1000 different ways to kill the spit, but you'll never know the level of skill of the spit5 pilot. So next time something like this happens you'll have a better understanding of what to do.
Or maybe we should lobby HTC to put a tail gunner on the P51 so when it's running away it can still fight! Hope you know I am kidding :rolleyes: :rofl <---see smilies
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Be aggressive and he'll freak out because he's not expecting a P51 to want to turn with him. Use those flaps, chop throttle, do whatever but mix it up. If you die you'll know what not to do next time.
I love reading stuff like this. :D
Let me see here, the Spit guy is behind a P-51 in an airplane that has a much better sustained rate of turn, better turn radius, better energy retention in turns, and in the most common MA variant, much better powerloading and roll rate, and is armed with twin Hispanos...yeah, that is a situation that'll make anyone panic. :rolleyes:
I'm sorry Uptown, no offense to you sir, but pat answers like this bother me. Good way to sound macho and win the :aok 's from the forumites, not so much useful information for telling the fellow how to deal with a Spitfire flown by a non-awful pilot.
Albeit, from the offensive position in the P-51, closing the throttle and slowing down to a moderate speed near cornering velocity is good advice, because of the P-51's wonderful deflection shooting ability and the fact that most P-51s attack at 450mph can make one rather lazy on the defensive maneuvering.
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You were lucky it was a Spit V. Any later model would have eaten you up and spit (no pun intended) you out trying that.
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http://www.vimeo.com/3226384 (http://www.vimeo.com/3226384) I put it that way BnZs because too many guys hop in a 51 and run away at the 1st sign of trouble. The pony is a wonderful plane but it won't fly itself. It's very rewarding to do what people say can't be done. Sorry for the poor video, am in a hurry as the race is coming on in a bit :lol :salute
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http://www.vimeo.com/3226384 (http://www.vimeo.com/3226384) I put it that way BnZs because too many guys hop in a 51 and run away at the 1st sign of trouble. The pony is a wonderful plane but it won't fly itself. It's very rewarding to do what people say can't be done. Sorry for the poor video, am in a hurry as the race is coming on in a bit :lol :salute
Post in AH film format please...I have dialup. :D
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I don't know how.
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I don't know how.
uptown gets it, you dont fight them in a pony, you run until the cows come home, then get him when he is deadstick out of fuel :aok.
If others get involved thats even better shoot him when he is turning with someone else.
Guys like Skatsr are just deluded thinking a pony can possibly do anything else :rolleyes:
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Guys like Skatsr are just deluded thinking a pony can possibly do anything else
Heh. Wonder if someone can get Skatsr to post here. The question is an honest one and deserves a better answer than most of us can give.
Fact is, a 1v1 in your situation is difficult for the 51 because the Spit, even a Spit 5, will always out turn you and, after a few turns wear your energy down, will outclimb you as well. Your advantages are better speed and better high-speed handling, and dropping one notch of flaps on the 51 will - just one time - let your pull your nose around to get the shot that you need. Try staying a bit further away from the Spit than you would another plane - perhaps 500 yards, instead of 200 or less. Do low yo-yos to keep your speed up, try to avoid climbs. At high speeds I think the 51 rolls better than the Spit, and you can do some of these on the top or bottom of your yo-yos. If you get close to a shooting position, drop that notch of flaps and see if it pulls you around.
That said, I think most competent Spit pilots will win the 1 v 1 fight against a 51 that doesn't HO (which I haven't addressed, because using the HO won't make you a better pilot, even if it wins this one fight). That's fine, practicing this kind of fight is how Skatsr got to be so good in the 51, and how others got to be good in planes that are at an objective disadvantage. Worst thing that happens to you is that you lose the fight and have to take off again.
- oldman
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Skat would say pretty much the same thing I said. Turn around and kill the guy. Always,always,always put your nose on the bad guy. You won't get any better at fighting by running away..period. ALL spits can be out turned by yoyos. Use the yoyo to cut their corner. If you need full flaps, by all means do it. Pull your convergence in to get the biggest bang for your buck in close. There's so many things that dictate the outcome of a dogfight. Skatsr is good because he can fly the 51 on the edge, is a good shot and can judge E well. You make just one mistake and he gets guns on you, you're dead.
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You can be very successful with the P-51D, just as long as you avoid Co-E fights with more maneuverable, better climbing fighters (including the P-38s).
My regards,
Widewing
This from a guy who knows the Mustang and the game in general rather well. That about says it all doesn't? If you defeat a Spit who started 1.5K back on your six with controlled closure in a turning fight, he is either a noob or left his brain in the hangar that sortie.
This isn't to say you never engage Spits, but when your top speed is over 20mph faster than that of the Spit, there is no reason not to engage on your own terms, where a positional or energy advantage can be coverted into a least one snapshot opportunity.
Uptown: You speak as if the Spit can not take advantage of 3 dimensional geometry himself. There is no placard in the Spitfire's cockpit saying *Warning: This airplane can only be flown in flat Luftberry turns*.
Guy who mentioned HOing: I find Spit16s are more likely even than P-51s to HO. Twin Hispanos and all that. *Especially* when they see you have cut an angle on them and are going to get a snapshot opportunity, they like to just honk back on the stick harder to swap ends and fly at you guns blazing.
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Sometimes you see advice here that assumes you're a better pilot than the guy in the better performing plane. Sometimes that might be the case and the information will be useful, but it doesn't address the heart of the issue. I wish more of these discussions were approached with "Assuming equal pilots..."
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Need to watch out, Spit 5s will surprise you sometime.
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When I go into a fight I do consider I'm the better pilot. You have to have confindence in your plane and abilities. If not you'll be running everywhere all the time. BnZs advise to the guy was run away and come back in a spitfire basically.That's the kind of mind set that sucks in this game.Learn to use what you got. Don't come at me with all these stats as excuses of why you don't want to fight. People come to this bbs all the time and complain about running ponys and what advise does the OP get?.....run away or climb to outer space until the guy breaks off from boredom.
I get on here and tell the guy to turn and fight, and I'm wrong because WideWing says so? :lol Well I got news for ya sports fans, 90% of the spit pilots around here don't fly very well. Several do, but most don't. I kill 3 times as many spits in a 51 then kill me and I don't do that by turning tail and running.
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Just a few minutes ago I was happily playing about in my P-51, staying above 5K and really just flying it safe in order to get a feel for it.
I ran into a lower alt spitfire 5 and made a mistake on the merge. There were other cons in the area and there was a friendly close enough to me that I thought he was going to go after the spitfire, so I dodged his first attack and ignored him to look around the battlefield. Only to spot the friendly diving off to go shoot at another P-51 3K distant, leaving me alone with a Spitfire 1.5 off my 6 and closing.
I immediately zoomed back up to alt, something close to 8-9K I don't recall exactly. But the Spitfire followed me just enough to start tossing rounds over my nose. I pulled into a right-hand climbing spiral figuring he's got to be at a lower E state than me and a right hand turn will bleed him faster than it will me and I'll be able to stall him out. Only he kept his spitfire 600-800 between my 4 and 5. He couldn't out-climb me, but I couldn't pull sharp enough to stall him out.
Since everytime he tried to shoot at me he missed I figured I'll just keep him there and drag him up to 20,000 feet where he couldn't breathe, wait for him to flutter and then go after him.
Needless to say we get to 20,000 feet and he's still there. Just close enough that I can't turn into him but just far enough away that he can't hit me. I also notice there's a P-38 and 109 climbing up to join the fight against me.
Since I can't shake the spit I put my nose down and run away, easily outrunning him and the other pursuers at altitude.
I dislike having to run away like that, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth and now I'm wondering if there was anything I could have done. If I hadn't been low on gas I probably would've stuck with it and kept climbing, and dodging until he ran out of gas. I know enough about spits to know they eat gas like crazy.
Is there really anything else I could have done?
Gosh where to begin.
First off, assuming you were in a D stang, spiral climb to the left. You'll be fighting the torque of the motor going to the right.
Why did you figure the spit5 would be in a lower E state than you if he had been on your six and CLOSING?
Dodging until he ran out of gas? Arrrrgh!!!
20K!!! Arrrghh noooooo!
Here's a very simple trick to add to your bag next time: The guy is in a spit5, you are in a mustang. He's going to have his throttle mashed because he's worried about losing you. If he's closing, he's set up. Nose down a little(make him think you are running) but close your throttle, maybe even all the way. Consider a notch or two of flaps. That spit is gonna still be balls out trying to get a shot before you get away. As he closes to guns, a simple aggressive scissor with some rudder input will keep you from building up speed at the rate he does and will keep you out of a gun solution against 99.9% of pilots. Remember, he's in a slow plane and doesn't want to let your "fast" pony get away so he's not looking for you to slow down relative to his speed. Very quickly you are going to have a spit flying out in front of you. At that point, shoot him and begin looking for your next victim.
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I'm still learning the D pony. I haven't figured out what it can do when and where yet.
I figured he was at a lower E state because the last time I had seen him he was alot lower than me, I glanced away to view the rest of the battle-space and then he was co-alt and 1.5 behind me. That he was closing while I was at a relatively fast speed had me thinking that he was going faster than he really was. Turning to the right would bleed me of speed and I'd have to fight the torque but so would he.
I figured that me being in a D pony would have better handling and energy retention in a right turn than a Spit 5.
I'll discuss more after class.
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leaving me alone with a Spitfire 1.5 off my 6 and closing.
I answered your question based on the above quote.
figured that me being in a D pony would have better handling and energy retention in a right turn than a Spit 5.
This is incorrect. As you spiral and get slow, the spit5 would handle better and have gentler stall characteristics.
I gave you an answer based on the scenario you presented in your original post. *shrug*
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I just want to add something to Steve's (good) advice. He's spot on about reading and anticipating the mindset of the pilot on your six. A strange thing happens to many people: when we're defensive, we tend to be more relaxed and have our brain in gear better than when we're offensive. We're trying to think our way out the predicament we just got ourselves in. The bore-sighted bandit on your six is flying on adrenalin and you can make him overreact.
Be aware of it next time you're offensive and notice that adrenalin can make you more hamfisted. It's like you're flying the plane by emotion and not with your head. Use that awareness against him.
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Just a few minutes ago I was happily playing about in my P-51, staying above 5K and really just flying it safe in order to get a feel for it.
I ran into a lower alt spitfire 5 and made a mistake on the merge. There were other cons in the area and there was a friendly close enough to me that I thought he was going to go after the spitfire, so I dodged his first attack and ignored him to look around the battlefield. Only to spot the friendly diving off to go shoot at another P-51 3K distant, leaving me alone with a Spitfire 1.5 off my 6 and closing.
I immediately zoomed back up to alt, something close to 8-9K I don't recall exactly. But the Spitfire followed me just enough to start tossing rounds over my nose. I pulled into a right-hand climbing spiral figuring he's got to be at a lower E state than me and a right hand turn will bleed him faster than it will me and I'll be able to stall him out. Only he kept his spitfire 600-800 between my 4 and 5. He couldn't out-climb me, but I couldn't pull sharp enough to stall him out.
Since everytime he tried to shoot at me he missed I figured I'll just keep him there and drag him up to 20,000 feet where he couldn't breathe, wait for him to flutter and then go after him.
Needless to say we get to 20,000 feet and he's still there. Just close enough that I can't turn into him but just far enough away that he can't hit me. I also notice there's a P-38 and 109 climbing up to join the fight against me.
Since I can't shake the spit I put my nose down and run away, easily outrunning him and the other pursuers at altitude.
I dislike having to run away like that, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth and now I'm wondering if there was anything I could have done. If I hadn't been low on gas I probably would've stuck with it and kept climbing, and dodging until he ran out of gas. I know enough about spits to know they eat gas like crazy.
Is there really anything else I could have done?
I had this problem (i was in a spitfire mk VIII) yesterday only it was a 109G-6 i was chasing and he had the dumb idea of turning his plane until he stalled downward giving that chance for me to blow his engine and leave him to die. Its highly unlikely you can out turn the spit and it has an average speed and high climb rate. It would of been smarter to put your WEP on, dive down and get away while you still can.
-FYB
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Since everytime he tried to shoot at me he missed I figured I'll just keep him there and drag him up to 20,000 feet where he couldn't breathe, wait for him to flutter and then go after him.
A warning about this line. A lot of people think P-51 = high alt and Spitfire = low alt. You were right about that for a Spitfire Mk V and a Spitfire Mk I or Seafire Mk II as well, but it would have been iffy going through the teens for a Mk VIII or Mk XVI.
A Mk IX or Mk XIV breaths just as well as the P-51 up there and you don't want to be in a P-51D at 25,000ft tangling with a Spitfire Mk XIV.
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A warning:you don't want to be at 25,000ft .
fixed. :aok
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1. The OP described a situation that sounded like he had a SpitV somewhere back there with no closure. My advice to him (I thought I made it clear enough) was to use the fact that the P-51 can climb respectably at a speed faster than the SpitV can run level to keep the Spit at arms length, gain some E, then turnaround and kill with E tactics. In ~3-5 minutes you can be almost 5K higher AND faster, which is more than enough. Its what I did the last time I killed a SpitV with a Pony.
In a situation where the thing is diving on you with plenty of closure, Steve's advice is sound. The Spit is going to get you anyway if he's got a clue, but what else are you going to do, drop the stick and get a coke? I don't think so.
2. What's wrong with telling him to come back in a Spit, if it gets him actually fighting? Isn't that what we want? The OP voiced a distaste for ever making a tactical withdrawal under any circumstances. A P-51 is about the worst choice for someone with those preferences, because its major strength relative most of the LW planeset is the ability to choose its engagements. A Spit is a far better choice if he wants to stay and fight it out vs. anything under any circumstances with a good chance. As is almost every fighter plane in the set except for the Fw-190 series.
3. *I* don't complain about P-51Ds running when appropriate. In fact, there are times when I'm doing some base defense in a Spit/La or something of the like, everyone around me is in similar rides, and there is one P-51 left who decides to get the heck out of Dodge. During these times, I'll sometimes hear someone say "Look at the Pony ruuuuuuunnnn". And then I just have to roll my eyes and say on range something to the effect of..."Yeah...what a pansy...doesn't want to fight all 17 of us brave souls...." :rolleyes:
The P-51 who HOs from a 500mph dive and then heads for the horizon and knows nothing of using his E to his advantage...well, kind of annoying sometimes, but if they are not flying their plane to its potential, no skin off my nose.
When I go into a fight I do consider I'm the better pilot. You have to have confindence in your plane and abilities. If not you'll be running everywhere all the time. BnZs advise to the guy was run away and come back in a spitfire basically.That's the kind of mind set that sucks in this game.Learn to use what you got. Don't come at me with all these stats as excuses of why you don't want to fight. People come to this bbs all the time and complain about running ponys and what advise does the OP get?.....run away or climb to outer space until the guy breaks off from boredom.
I get on here and tell the guy to turn and fight, and I'm wrong because WideWing says so? :lol Well I got news for ya sports fans, 90% of the spit pilots around here don't fly very well. Several do, but most don't. I kill 3 times as many spits in a 51 then kill me and I don't do that by turning tail and running.
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2. What's wrong with telling him to come back in a Spit, if it gets him actually fighting?
We have enough Spits as it is, that's what's wrong with it! :furious :rofl How about a Ki-84, Yak-9U, 109F-4/G2, F4U or...you get the idea. :aok There are so many competitive rides to choose from for mixing it up, but we see 50% Spitfires among those who want to fight in close.
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We have enough Spits as it is, that's what's wrong with it! :furious :rofl How about a Ki-84, Yak-9U, 109F-4/G2, F4U or...you get the idea. :aok There are so many competitive rides to choose from for mixing it up, but we see 50% Spitfires among those who want to fight in close.
Well, the "Spit" part was kind of words put in my mouth anyway...but the point stands though, if you want to engage everything that comes along in co-E angles fights instead of choosing your engagements, its a little nutty to click on the P-51 in the hangar.
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Well, the "Spit" part was kind of words put in my mouth anyway...but the point stands though, if you want to engage everything that comes along in co-E angles fights instead of choosing your engagements, its a little nutty to click on the P-51 in the hangar.
With that I agree! :aok
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I thank everyone for the advice. But I do feel the need to explain a couple of things.
First off, if I just wanted to turn and burn I'd build up my perks and play around in a U4 Corsair all day. If all I want to do was zoom in fire a couple of bullets and be gone I'd fly a 190. I want a plane that in the right conditions can excel at either, but takes a good deal of skill to make those conditions appear, and requires excellent gunnery or you'll wind up toasted. To me, that is the P-51. In a corsair I can always hang on someone's 6 until they give me the shot I want. Same deal in a 109 I can easily dictate the fight into a turn, scissor, or hang on their 6 until I'm 20 ft. away before finally deciding to shoot, or just climb away and laugh as they try to keep up. I want something more challenging than that. I want an aircraft that can't stay with another all day long, the P-51 can stick with most aircraft for a short time-period, but past that time she quickly loses any advantage.
The corsair and 109 allow the pilot to be fairly lazy with their gunnery, and the P-51, as I'm finding out, doesn't.
Second, I'm a college student, I don't get 20 hours a day to fly, a couple hours a week if I'm lucky between school and work.
Third, my best aircraft is the 109. I spent all year learning how it flies and practicing tater gunnery and then decided I wanted to fly something else. I can go toe to toe with almost any aircraft in the set and come out on top with my 109 all things being equal. I want to fly the P-51 and I don't want to do the gamey bit of flying until I die to learn how to use it. That's how I learned the 109 and the corsair before then and I'm tired of that method.
I don't expect the best P-51 pilots flew over German bases until they got shot down in order to learn how not to fly their aircraft, the goal of my flight was to up, find other planes, shoot as many as possible down and get back to base. With a big emphasis on getting back to base.
I came here looking for advice on how to counter one of the most common and difficult aircraft to fight against. I recieved that, thank you.
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You're such a stud , don't see how us mere mortals could help.
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I want to fly the P-51 and I don't want to do the gamey bit of flying until I die to learn how to use it. That's how I learned the 109 and the corsair before then and I'm tired of that method.
I don't expect the best P-51 pilots flew over German bases until they got shot down in order to learn how not to fly their aircraft, the goal of my flight was to up, find other planes, shoot as many as possible down and get back to base. With a big emphasis on getting back to base.
Well, it sounds like you're well one your way to being an average P-51 jock around here.
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Being patient might work, but I'm not sure because I haven't tried it yet :P
However, when I'm running around in a fast aircraft trying to fight a Spitfire, I aim on just getting the fight higher, but not necessarily gaining the altitude advantage immediately.
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First, let me point out that I'm not a good stick. I fly the 47N when I'm looking for speed fights, so that says it all.... :O
Also, this isn't a criticism or anysuch of what others have said, just seems like a good place for a public service announcement.
When I'm in a 51 or 47, my order in merge is:
1: avoid HO against cannon;
2: at merge, LOOK BACK;
3: NOW decide on fight or flight.
Being in a near pure E fighter means if your opponent knows what he is doing, you need distance and quickly. If your opponent is indecisive, or screwed, make a fast E turn that will bring you above him with options. For example, if a Spit(anything) enters climbing turn, it's time to put nose up a bit, extend and decide. I see a lot about proper merge and actions, but the bottom line is this ain't a science, you need to identify your situation and find a mistake for your opponent to make, and if you can't find a mistake for him to make it may be time to save your plane and find a better situation.
One of the things I see all the time are people giving detailed "instructions" to new people with no knowledge of their experience or abilities. When somebody asks me what to learn in and how to learn, I usually tell them FM2 or P38. The planes are to gain experience in control and SA, as you won't be up long if you lack either. I also tell them to watch a lot of fights and only enter fights they feel they have a chance in. Learning is hard, but being shot down so fast everytime you up that you don't gain experience is just a plain pain and breaks a lot of newbies.
To win, you have to identify the threat and react, which can only come with experience, which means sticking to survival basics for a while.
I fly as I play poker: Put HIM to many decisions, and he will make a mistake.
Have Fun, Fly Well
Dashe
The spare parts King(if i brought da hole plane back, the Chief would die)
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Easy Dive past the spit and keep going wait for him to follow if he dosnt re merge if he does climb straight up if he follows you up he will stall if he dosnt jst go down and kill him
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First, let me point out that I'm not a good stick. I fly the 47N when I'm looking for speed fights, so that says it all.... :O
Also, this isn't a criticism or anysuch of what others have said, just seems like a good place for a public service announcement.
When I'm in a 51 or 47, my order in merge is:
1: avoid HO against cannon;
2: at merge, LOOK BACK;
3: NOW decide on fight or flight.
Being in a near pure E fighter means if your opponent knows what he is doing, you need distance and quickly. If your opponent is indecisive, or screwed, make a fast E turn that will bring you above him with options. For example, if a Spit(anything) enters climbing turn, it's time to put nose up a bit, extend and decide. I see a lot about proper merge and actions, but the bottom line is this ain't a science, you need to identify your situation and find a mistake for your opponent to make, and if you can't find a mistake for him to make it may be time to save your plane and find a better situation.
One of the things I see all the time are people giving detailed "instructions" to new people with no knowledge of their experience or abilities. When somebody asks me what to learn in and how to learn, I usually tell them FM2 or P38. The planes are to gain experience in control and SA, as you won't be up long if you lack either. I also tell them to watch a lot of fights and only enter fights they feel they have a chance in. Learning is hard, but being shot down so fast everytime you up that you don't gain experience is just a plain pain and breaks a lot of newbies.
To win, you have to identify the threat and react, which can only come with experience, which means sticking to survival basics for a while.
I fly as I play poker: Put HIM to many decisions, and he will make a mistake.
Have Fun, Fly Well
Dashe
The spare parts King(if i brought da hole plane back, the Chief would die)
Dashe, I think you should take some lessons from the trainers. By flying the "E" machines yes you have to be a bit more careful, but I think your being wayyyyyy toooooo careful. If you attack quicker, he has less time to make all those decisions so will make a mistake sooner.
The OP made a mistake in his SA. Your SA is starting to late.
When I'm in a 51 or 47, my order in merge is:
1: avoid HO against cannon; You've already blown the merge. By pointing your nose at the enemy your giving up angles. By the time I pass an enemy on the merge I like to be at least 45 degrees off his nose. This gives me a 25% headstart on my next turn to him.
2: at merge, LOOK BACK; Good idea, fly most of the flight looking at the enemy, not where you are going. The only time you should NEED to look out the front of your plane is to shoot the enemy.
3: NOW decide on fight or flight. When you merge you should already know whether you are going to fight or run. That is part of the SA. Knowing which cards the enemy has and which cards you have and deciding before you even turn toward him the first time if you got enough to make a fight of it, or just fold and run.
Being careful is all well and good. Not putting yourself into a position where you might be screwed (although its a lot of fun and a good learning experience trying to fight your way out :D ) is a good fighting style, but don't push it to such an extreme that you never engage.
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Easy Dive past the spit and keep going wait for him to follow if he does climb straight up
Bang, you're dead. In the initial scenario the spit had more E and was closing. Rope FAIL
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When I'm in a 51 or 47, my order in merge is:
1: avoid HO against cannon;
2: at merge, LOOK BACK;
3: NOW decide on fight or flight.
Are you saying you go for a head-on shot if you think you have the bandit slightly outgunned?
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Are you saying you go for a head-on shot if you think you have the bandit slightly outgunned?
No, never if I can avoid it, but too many here are very adept at forcing HOs, so I change merge far earlier if he has cannon, figuring if he wants to play craps I'll get an angle if he doesn't reacrt quickly. If he is just gunned, I will be closer, try to avoid, but a 47vsZero HO is better for me that letting him get around on me if I'm jumped with no real E.
Have Fun, Fly Well
Dashe
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Ok, that's good! I was a little worried there but didn't want to jump to the wrong conclusion. ;)
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Fgitive,
I've been thinking in much in the way of Dashed. With the lack of online play I have, I guess I haven't been able to improve it.
Whenever I'm in a duel flying a faster aircraft, I usually wait until after the merge to decide what I'm going to do next. For me, I'm usually fighting a friend who's in a Spitfire VIII or IX and after the merge, I'm always like: 'Now what? I'm extending but how do I get the fight to a higher altitude?'
I've tried High-Yoyo's, one after the other. I merge and make anther yoyo but the fast accelerating Spitfire always gets me duped and I have to dive a little to gain some separation. Then the fight ends up where it began: at an altitude barely high enough for me to maneuver.
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Fgitive,
I've been thinking in much in the way of Dashed. With the lack of online play I have, I guess I haven't been able to improve it.
Whenever I'm in a duel flying a faster aircraft, I usually wait until after the merge to decide what I'm going to do next. For me, I'm usually fighting a friend who's in a Spitfire VIII or IX and after the merge, I'm always like: 'Now what? I'm extending but how do I get the fight to a higher altitude?'
I've tried High-Yoyo's, one after the other. I merge and make anther yoyo but the fast accelerating Spitfire always gets me duped and I have to dive a little to gain some separation. Then the fight ends up where it began: at an altitude barely high enough for me to maneuver.
I'm confused. What plane needs to have alt to maneuver?
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heres what not to do against a spit :)
put my gunsight in as well.
http://www.4shared.com/file/89069751/eaf0b46f/schooledniks.html
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When i would of hit 10 or 15 k I would of put the nose down and took that spit into a high speed fight where you would of had him fighting your fight
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My bad Steve,
What I meant by 'barely enough altitude to maneuver', I meant barely enough altitude for me to maneuver effectibely; i.e. yoyos, split-S' etc. At any rate, we all know that E-fighters - well most fighters on average - have much better a chance of winning a fight if the fight is higher than oh say, 7,000 - 15,000 ft. of alt.
I'm really just trying to figure out how to take a fight up higher while remaining out of guns range long enough until the fight gets up there. Unless, of course, someone here can really show me some films or something of how faster but slower climbing planes (like the P-51, F4U or Jug) win a low-alt, co-alt fight vs. slower but better climbing/better horizontal maneuvering planes (like the Spitfire IX/VIII).
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My bad Steve,
What I meant by 'barely enough altitude to maneuver', I meant barely enough altitude for me to maneuver effectibely; i.e. yoyos, split-S' etc. At any rate, we all know that E-fighters - well most fighters on average - have much better a chance of winning a fight if the fight is higher than oh say, 7,000 - 15,000 ft. of alt.
I'm really just trying to figure out how to take a fight up higher while remaining out of guns range long enough until the fight gets up there. Unless, of course, someone here can really show me some films or something of how faster but slower climbing planes (like the P-51, F4U or Jug) win a low-alt, co-alt fight vs. slower but better climbing/better horizontal maneuvering planes (like the Spitfire IX/VIII).
I understand the words you are saying but, having flown the pony, have trouble arriving at your conclusions. I'm not trying to pick a fight, it just seems our approach is vastly differernt. I rarely go over 8k, and still manage to find bad guys to kill. A pony with a head of steam in a coalt fight has many options. You really don't need a significant alt advantage to get kills.
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My bad Steve,
What I meant by 'barely enough altitude to maneuver', I meant barely enough altitude for me to maneuver effectibely; i.e. yoyos, split-S' etc. At any rate, we all know that E-fighters - well most fighters on average - have much better a chance of winning a fight if the fight is higher than oh say, 7,000 - 15,000 ft. of alt.
I'm really just trying to figure out how to take a fight up higher while remaining out of guns range long enough until the fight gets up there. Unless, of course, someone here can really show me some films or something of how faster but slower climbing planes (like the P-51, F4U or Jug) win a low-alt, co-alt fight vs. slower but better climbing/better horizontal maneuvering planes (like the Spitfire IX/VIII).
I think this is the mentality of a lot of people, they read just enough info to be a danger to themselves :D
E fighters do BETTER than turners when "E" fighting, but do just as well as most turners when TURNING. You read that an "E" fighter shouldn't turn, burns "E" and gets you killed. Well it could, but not always. Don't limit yourself by sticking to some "doctrine" someone wrote on a web page someplace.
Fighting on the deck is a bit tougher, but it can be done against a good majority of the people flying these days. They don't expect it, so you have surprise on your side and if your aim is half decent they are dead before they recover from that surprise. A hi yo-yo doesn't have to go up 2k, a couple hundred feet might be enough to keep that little bit more "E" than the other guy to get your guns on him. The same goes for the other maneuvers, keep them smooth and they work just as well on the deck as at 10k.
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When I watch film of my main arena fights, I routinely see P-51s blow by me with lots of smash, and they don't even bother to try to kill me after one failed guns pass (not even when I'm the only enemy around). And when I start to win position against one, they immediately dive straight for their field ack. If I were in a Spitfire XVI I could understand, but I fly a lot of merely decent planes and sometimes crappy planes, too; yet it's pretty much de rigueur for 90% of P-51 pilots to only fight when they have a huge advantage.
That said, I don't think that running away is shameful if you're totally out of options, e.g. in a 51D with a XVI saddled 600 yards off your 6. You screwed up and it's time to think about extending if you can.
I've seen Steve in the P-51, and he might as well be flying a different plane. He didn't reach that skill level by only trying to shoot guys who suffered a collapse of SA.
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Oh don't worry Steve, I'm not picking a fight either. :)
In fact, your last post is exactly what I needed to hear. " You really don't need a significant alt advantage to get kills."
Now the question for me is, how do I do this as efficiently as possible? Lag pursuit? High yo-yos (tried 'em) but Fugitive's comments puts some extra light on that maneuver.
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I liked your throttle back juke idea Steve i think i'm going to start trying that. Keep up the good work, your the only pony pilot I don't see in the cosmos or running with a nipple in your mouth <S>
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Oh don't worry Steve, I'm not picking a fight either. :)
In fact, your last post is exactly what I needed to hear. " You really don't need a significant alt advantage to get kills."
Now the question for me is, how do I do this as efficiently as possible? Lag pursuit? High yo-yos (tried 'em) but Fugitive's comments puts some extra light on that maneuver.
If you're not already doing it try throttle control. If you're flying so fast that you can induce a blackout you're flying too fast to fight effectively. You need to get to your best corner speed which is different for every aircraft. Keep your hands on the throttle and use it continuously. Sometimes you'll need a little boost to gain or hold position, sometimes a little drop in throttle. If things get too fast use a little slip to get back in sync.
I've had three really good fights recently where I should have been out matched but instead prevailed. One was a deck fight between me in a P-47N against a P-38J. The next was a co-alt start from about 8K with an La-7 1K on the six of my P-40B. The final one was a P-51D on the deck against me in a P-40E. The common denominator was that I was continually working the throttle to maintain position in the fight.
As to waiting until after the merge to decide what to do you've already lost. You should be making your first move 800-1000 before the merge to gain position for the opening of the fight and, hopefully, gain control from the start.
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BnZ, I'm with you. Put me in a Spit V behind a pony that isn't gaining distance big time, AND wants to reverse. Take that short engagement any day.
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What usualy works best is the last thing the spitfire is expecting.
It's really that simple.
S!
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What usualy works best is the last thing the spitfire is expecting.
It's really that simple.
S!
That's what I was trying to say :aok
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Yup i strongly agreed with everything you wrote a few pages before. Most of the advice here is best suited to a real war when you can really die, or at best scenarios or getting a high rank in the MA. But this is no fun and teaches you nothing of how to fight when you have to.
Some pony pilots will fly 'smart' in it and when they are cornered by a spit16 they will die. When this happens they will either shrug it off as an impossible situation to win, or they will complain that the spit16 has a better plane.
The other type of P51 pilot will die alot more in general, but when it comes to that spit16 chasing them they will turn back and win from disadvantage.
It all depends on what type of pony dweeb you want to become when chosing who's advice is the best to follow.
Personally i take Wilson P as my p51 mentor.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPpVCUAb8Es&feature=channel_page
S!
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Tactics are dictated by situation, not character Bat :P Is the Spit16 diving on a 300mph pony at 450mph, or is it somewhere back, already loosing the race?
Though I must tell you, I don't see why a Spit pilot diving on a P-51D with a high rate of closure should expect anything *other* than an overshoot attempt, since that is the only thing the P-51D can reasonably do in his situation.
Yup i strongly agreed with everything you wrote a few pages before. Most of the advice here is best suited to a real war when you can really die, or at best scenarios or getting a high rank in the MA. But this is no fun and teaches you nothing of how to fight when you have to.
Some pony pilots will fly 'smart' in it and when they are cornered by a spit16 they will die. When this happens they will either shrug it off as an impossible situation to win, or they will complain that the spit16 has a better plane.
The other type of P51 pilot will die alot more in general, but when it comes to that spit16 chasing them they will turn back and win from disadvantage.
It all depends on what type of pony dweeb you want to become when chosing who's advice is the best to follow.
Personally i take Wilson P as my p51 mentor.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPpVCUAb8Es&feature=channel_page
S!
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Tactics are dictated by situation, not character Bat :P Is the Spit16 diving on a 300mph pony at 450mph, or is it somewhere back, already loosing the race?
Though I must tell you, I don't see why a Spit pilot diving on a P-51D with a high rate of closure should expect anything *other* than an overshoot attempt, since that is the only thing the P-51D can reasonably do in his situation.
Most expect the p51 to panic dive... as many of them do. I routinely force overshoots of spits, especially 16's. Although I admit I have died once to a spit 16 in the last 3 tours.
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If a spit is diving in on me with good closure and I don't have time to reverse on him then I will attempt an overshoot with the scissors. If that's not working on the spit, I'll go vertical in hopes of losing him and dropping down behind him. I don't know if this is right or not but it works pretty well most of the time. The only planes I have a real hard time fighting this way are the F4Us,109s and now the 152s flown by good sticks. I guess when it's all said and done, it comes down to pilot skill. A guy I'm fighting may have the better performing plane but if he doesn't know how to use it, I should get a kill out of the deal. :salute