Fighting Spitfires

[SgtPappy]

Fgitive,

I've been thinking in much in the way of Dashed. With the lack of online play I have, I guess I haven't been able to improve it.

Whenever I'm in a duel flying a faster aircraft, I usually wait until after the merge to decide what I'm going to do next. For me, I'm usually fighting a friend who's in a Spitfire VIII or IX and after the merge, I'm always like: 'Now what? I'm extending but how do I get the fight to a higher altitude?'

I've tried High-Yoyo's, one after the other. I merge and make anther yoyo but the fast accelerating Spitfire always gets me duped and I have to dive a little to gain some separation. Then the fight ends up where it began: at an altitude barely high enough for me to maneuver.

[Steve]

Fgitive,

I've been thinking in much in the way of Dashed. With the lack of online play I have, I guess I haven't been able to improve it.

Whenever I'm in a duel flying a faster aircraft, I usually wait until after the merge to decide what I'm going to do next. For me, I'm usually fighting a friend who's in a Spitfire VIII or IX and after the merge, I'm always like: 'Now what? I'm extending but how do I get the fight to a higher altitude?'

I've tried High-Yoyo's, one after the other. I merge and make anther yoyo but the fast accelerating Spitfire always gets me duped and I have to dive a little to gain some separation. Then the fight ends up where it began: at an altitude barely high enough for me to maneuver.

I'm confused. What plane needs to have alt to maneuver?

[RumbleB]

heres what not to do against a spit

put my gunsight in as well.

http://www.4shared.com/file/89069751/eaf0b46f/schooledniks.html

[Cajunn]

When i would of hit 10 or 15 k I would of put the nose down and took that spit into a high speed fight where you would of had him fighting your fight

[SgtPappy]

My bad Steve,

What I meant by 'barely enough altitude to maneuver', I meant barely enough altitude for me to maneuver effectibely; i.e. yoyos, split-S' etc. At any rate, we all know that E-fighters - well most fighters on average - have much better a chance of winning a fight if the fight is higher than oh say, 7,000 - 15,000 ft. of alt.

I'm really just trying to figure out how to take a fight up higher while remaining out of guns range long enough until the fight gets up there. Unless, of course, someone here can really show me some films or something of how faster but slower climbing planes (like the P-51, F4U or Jug) win a low-alt, co-alt fight vs. slower but better climbing/better horizontal maneuvering planes (like the Spitfire IX/VIII). 

[Steve]

My bad Steve,

What I meant by 'barely enough altitude to maneuver', I meant barely enough altitude for me to maneuver effectibely; i.e. yoyos, split-S' etc. At any rate, we all know that E-fighters - well most fighters on average - have much better a chance of winning a fight if the fight is higher than oh say, 7,000 - 15,000 ft. of alt.

I'm really just trying to figure out how to take a fight up higher while remaining out of guns range long enough until the fight gets up there. Unless, of course, someone here can really show me some films or something of how faster but slower climbing planes (like the P-51, F4U or Jug) win a low-alt, co-alt fight vs. slower but better climbing/better horizontal maneuvering planes (like the Spitfire IX/VIII). 

I understand the words you are saying but, having flown the pony, have trouble arriving at your conclusions. I'm not trying  to pick a fight, it just seems our approach is vastly differernt. I rarely go over 8k, and still manage to find bad guys to kill. A pony with a head of steam in a coalt fight has many options.   You really don't need a significant alt advantage to get kills.

[The Fugitive]

My bad Steve,

What I meant by 'barely enough altitude to maneuver', I meant barely enough altitude for me to maneuver effectibely; i.e. yoyos, split-S' etc. At any rate, we all know that E-fighters - well most fighters on average - have much better a chance of winning a fight if the fight is higher than oh say, 7,000 - 15,000 ft. of alt.

I'm really just trying to figure out how to take a fight up higher while remaining out of guns range long enough until the fight gets up there. Unless, of course, someone here can really show me some films or something of how faster but slower climbing planes (like the P-51, F4U or Jug) win a low-alt, co-alt fight vs. slower but better climbing/better horizontal maneuvering planes (like the Spitfire IX/VIII). 

I think this is the mentality of a lot of people, they read just enough info to be a danger to themselves 

E fighters do BETTER than turners when "E" fighting, but do just as well as most turners when TURNING. You read that an "E" fighter shouldn't turn, burns "E" and gets you killed. Well it could, but not always. Don't limit yourself by sticking to some "doctrine" someone wrote on a web page someplace.

Fighting on the deck is a bit tougher, but it can be done against a good majority of the people flying these days. They don't expect it, so you have surprise on your side and if your aim is half decent they are dead before they recover from that surprise. A hi yo-yo doesn't have to go up 2k, a couple hundred feet might be enough to keep that little bit more "E" than the other guy to get your guns on him. The same goes for the other maneuvers, keep them smooth and they work just as well on the deck as at 10k.

[Anaxogoras]

When I watch film of my main arena fights, I routinely see P-51s blow by me with lots of smash, and they don't even bother to try to kill me after one failed guns pass (not even when I'm the only enemy around).  And when I start to win position against one, they immediately dive straight for their field ack.  If I were in a Spitfire XVI I could understand, but I fly a lot of merely decent planes and sometimes crappy planes, too; yet it's pretty much de rigueur for 90% of P-51 pilots to only fight when they have a huge advantage.

That said, I don't think that running away is shameful if you're totally out of options, e.g. in a 51D with a XVI saddled 600 yards off your 6.  You screwed up and it's time to think about extending if you can.

I've seen Steve in the P-51, and he might as well be flying a different plane.  He didn't reach that skill level by only trying to shoot guys who suffered a collapse of SA.

[SgtPappy]

Oh don't worry Steve, I'm not picking a fight either. 

In fact, your last post is exactly what I needed to hear. " You really don't need a significant alt advantage to get kills."

Now the question for me is, how do I do this as efficiently as possible? Lag pursuit? High yo-yos (tried 'em) but Fugitive's comments puts some extra light on that maneuver.

[Belial]

I liked your throttle back juke idea Steve i think i'm going to start trying that.  Keep up the good work, your the only pony pilot I don't see in the cosmos or running with a nipple in your mouth <S>

[BaldEagl]

Oh don't worry Steve, I'm not picking a fight either. 

In fact, your last post is exactly what I needed to hear. " You really don't need a significant alt advantage to get kills."

Now the question for me is, how do I do this as efficiently as possible? Lag pursuit? High yo-yos (tried 'em) but Fugitive's comments puts some extra light on that maneuver.

If you're not already doing it try throttle control.  If you're flying so fast that you can induce a blackout you're flying too fast to fight effectively.  You need to get to your best corner speed which is different for every aircraft.  Keep your hands on the throttle and use it continuously.  Sometimes you'll need a little boost to gain or hold position, sometimes a little drop in throttle.  If things get too fast use a little slip to get back in sync.

I've had three really good fights recently where I should have been out matched but instead prevailed.  One was a deck fight between me in a P-47N against a P-38J.  The next was a co-alt start from about 8K with an La-7 1K on the six of my P-40B.  The final one was a P-51D on the deck against me in a P-40E.  The common denominator was that I was continually working the throttle to maintain position in the fight.

As to waiting until after the merge to decide what to do you've already lost.  You should be making your first move 800-1000 before the merge to gain position for the opening of the fight and, hopefully, gain control from the start.

[Hap]

BnZ, I'm with you.  Put me in a Spit V behind a pony that isn't gaining distance big time, AND wants to reverse.  Take that short engagement any day.

[mechanic]

What usualy works best is the last thing the spitfire is expecting.

It's really that simple.

S!

[uptown]

What usualy works best is the last thing the spitfire is expecting.

It's really that simple.

S!

That's what I was trying to say 

[mechanic]

Yup i strongly agreed with everything you wrote a few pages before. Most of the advice here is best suited to a real war when you can really die, or at best scenarios or getting a high rank in the MA. But this is no fun and teaches you nothing of how to fight when you have to.
 Some pony pilots will fly 'smart' in it and when they are cornered by a spit16 they will die. When this happens they will either shrug it off as an impossible situation to win, or they will complain that the spit16 has a better plane.
 The other type of P51 pilot will die alot more in general, but when it comes to that spit16 chasing them they will turn back and win from disadvantage.
 It all depends on what type of pony dweeb you want to become when chosing who's advice is the best to follow.

Personally i take Wilson P as my p51 mentor.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPpVCUAb8Es&feature=channel_page


S!