Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: grizz441 on February 15, 2009, 07:34:19 PM
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I got into a discussion with some squaddies the other day about Eny and how it should work. None of them agreed with me which is fine but I'm curious to get some others take on it. For those who don't know, Eny is set up based on the aircraft's theoretical potential.
How it's set up:
Eny 5:
All Perked Aircraft, Spit16, Ta152, P47N, N1k2, La7
Eny 8:
P51D
Eny 10:
Typhoon, Spit8, HurriC, Bf110G
Eny 15:
F4U1A, F4UD, F6F5, Fw190D9,Ki84, Seafire
Eny 20:
109K4, 109G14, C205, F4F, FM2, 190F8, La5, P38J, P38L, P39Q, P47D40, P51B, Spit9, YakU
Etc...
Now, I've bolded the planes that I feel should have a lower eny number and Redded the planes that I feel should have a higher eny number. Obviously this is open to discussion.
Anyways, the question I wanted to pose is, do you think an aircraft's eny should be based on its Potential or its Popularity?
I should also note that Potential is a subjective stat that HTC defines.
I'll just give one example from this list as to why I think eny should be defined by Popularity and not Potential. The Fw190D9 is an eny 15 plane so it is typically always available unless there is a ridiculous imbalance. It is also one of LW's most popular planes. It's not hard to understand why. Tons of 20mm cannon ammo and one of the fastest planes. Now, the reason it is an eny 15 plane is probably based on the fact that it can't turn worth a darn when it gets slow. It's lack of turn capability is a moot point though. The vast majority of the 190D9 pilots only use it for B&Z so why does it matter if it can't turn. They don't even try to turn it. The dynamic of the MA is to cut and run and this is the perfect plane for that 'avoid the fight' mentality.
It seems to me plane popularity is based primarily on Speed and Gun Lethality for the vast majority of the players in the MA. Take your cherry picks and get out of dodge. Since no one is using their planes to their Potential, why is Eny based on this? I'm sure Lusche has stats for the most popular planes in the LW handy somewhere which would also be nice to see.
So what do you think, Should Eny be based on Performance or Popularity?
P.S.
All perks should be Eny5. Obviously the 262 won't have a high popularity due to it's cost.
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I'm pretty happy with ENY values. That said, I don't fly anything other than German aircraft.
There are only two aircraft I that I don't really like their ENY value- the 109K and the 110G.
The 109K IMO should be around 10 and the 110G should be like 25.
I do understand why the 110G is 10 ENY- because of its horde aircraft. But it's kind of unrepresentative of it's aerial potential.
My point is, I wish aircraft were limited by OBJ as well as ENY- (this of course would require OBJ values to be adjusted) so that the hording side would not only be locked out of La7's and Spixteens but B24's and Lancasters, and aircraft would have more representative perk bonuses in their major roles.
Plus, the whines would be awesome.
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For me it doesn't matter too much whether it's based on performance or popularity, but there should be some kind of yardstick that's external from HTC's opinion by which to judge ENY....then I would be happy. :devil
The only reason these ENY disputes occur is because there is no external standard, and hence no justification.
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The effective potential of the aircraft depends on the pilots. Picture 10 years of AH where one plane had great potential that was extremely difficult to exploit. You ENY it at 5. In those ten years, only a handful out of 10,000 players fly the plane near its full potential. In any given TOD, you encounter one of those players flying that plane about once or twice, 1998 other times it's flown like a school bus so that it's k/d is 0.0001 or something. In effect, the plane is not dangerous, not worth ENY 5 but prolly more like 10. But not 30 either, unless some auto-ENY-adjustment system is set up to track any surge in proper exploitation of that plane which would then be unbalancing.
So it's a matter of balancing the two, popularity and potential. IMO potential is largely the bigger factor.
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The effective potential of the aircraft depends on the pilots. Picture 10 years of AH where one plane had great potential that was extremely difficult to exploit. You ENY it at 5. In those ten years, only a handful out of 10,000 players fly the plane near its full potential. In any given TOD, you encounter one of those players flying that plane about once or twice, 1998 other times it's flown like a school bus so that it's k/d is 0.0001 or something. In effect, the plane is not worth ENY 5, prolly more like 10. But not 30 either, unless some auto-ENY-adjustment system is set up to track any surge in proper exploitation of that plane which would then be unbalancing.
This is true, but you don't want to overlook the fact that some aircraft have potential that's easier to exploit than others. In a way that's what ENY should represent.
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This is true, but you don't want to overlook the fact that some aircraft have potential that's easier to exploit than others. In a way that's what ENY should represent.
Even now I dont think that 'potential' is set up properly. For example, the 30 eny Bf109G6.
So it's a matter of balancing the two, popularity and potential. IMO potential is largely the bigger factor.
I agree with this if the LW mentality wasn't B&Z, cut and run for 95% of the pilots. If it was more about combat with pilots striving to fly their planes to their potential then yeah, eny should be based on potential. But with the vast majority of the arena flying the P51d, typhs, 190D9s in straight lines going 400+, then outrunning the opposition on the deck, how do you penalize this? Imagine sector eny'ing + Eny based on plane popularity. Hordes would be reduced to flying planes they have no chance in. Fish out of water. Maybe they'll learn how to walk.
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Hordes would be reduced to flying planes they have no chance in. Fish out of water. Maybe they'll learn how to walk.
+1
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I think ENY should be rechecked on MANY MANY planes. For example, the Fw190A8 is 31 ENY but the A5 is 25 and the F8 is 20! I think this is a screwup as the A8 is MORE capable than the A5! Considering HTC modeled the F8 to match A8 specs, they theoretically SHOULD have the same ENY (if not A8 having less ENY because of heavier cannon options). The Ki84 has significant weaknesses (can't pass 450mph or loses ALL flight surfaces at once) as compared to the uber-flappen P-38s, yet it is 15 ENY and they are 20.
Speaking of 20 ENY, that's the same ENY for both 109K4 and 109G14, but the C205 was recently bumped up to 20 (from 30 or 25, I can't recall). In no way is this plane as capable as the 109K or G14, in terms of range, manuverability, climb rate, or top speed. It only got bumped up to 20 ENY because folks started several threads on the BBS about it and people started to think it's uber. Here's a tip: It's not, and that's one reason I like it.
Then there's the P-40E, 109F-4, 109G-2, and 109G-6 all sharing an ENY of 30. Last I recall the G-6 had a lower ENY. I don't recall when that changed. Regardless, saying that the F-4 and P-40E are comparable is one thing, but saying there's no combat difference between the 109s? The F-4 being the slowest, weakest armed, the G-2 being faster, better climbing, able to carry 3x as many guns or wing rockets, and the G-6 doing the same but with heavier MGs still yet? Those should be higher ranked by far. [higher ranked meaning lower ENY]
Here's a snapshot I took from the LWA moments ago, just to refresh everyone's memories:
Warning, it'll scroll for ya!
(http://www.nakatomitower.com/ENYlist.jpg)
EDIT: the BBS downsized it. Raw link is here:
http://www.nakatomitower.com/ENYlist.jpg
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The A8 is definitely not lower on the ENY scale than the A5.
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I'm sayin'!! :aok
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Here's a snapshot I took from the LWA moments ago, just to refresh everyone's memories:
Warning, it'll scroll for ya!
(http://www.nakatomitower.com/ENYlist.jpg)
EDIT: the BBS downsized it. Raw link is here:
http://www.nakatomitower.com/ENYlist.jpg
A more accessible list (you can even copy & paste) can be found in the AH2 WIKI:
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/wiki/index.php/Aircraft%2C_Vehicles_and_Boats_in_Main_Arenas
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Doesnt ENY also go on with how many of the planes were built and how long they flew in the war, or is this just a rumor i heard?
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There are some folks that learn their plane and use it to its potential. Just because someone does not take time to learn their plane is no reason to change ENY.
ENY is moot when you fly low number teams anyway...........
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I got into a discussion with some squaddies the other day about Eny and how it should work. None of them agreed with me which is fine but I'm curious to get some others take on it. For those who don't know, Eny is set up based on the aircraft's theoretical potential.
How it's set up:
Eny 5:
All Perked Aircraft, Spit16, Ta152, P47N, N1k2, La7
Eny 8:
P51D
Eny 10:
Typhoon, Spit8, HurriC, Bf110G
Eny 15:
F4U1A, F4UD, F6F5, Fw190D9,Ki84, Seafire
Eny 20:
109K4, 109G14, C205, F4F, FM2, 190F8, La5, P38J, P38L, P39Q, P47D40, P51B, Spit9, YakU
Etc...
Now, I've bolded the planes that I feel should have a lower eny number and Redded the planes that I feel should have a higher eny number. Obviously this is open to discussion.
Anyways, the question I wanted to pose is, do you think an aircraft's eny should be based on its Potential or its Popularity?
I should also note that Potential is a subjective stat that HTC defines.
I'll just give one example from this list as to why I think eny should be defined by Popularity and not Potential. The Fw190D9 is an eny 15 plane so it is typically always available unless there is a ridiculous imbalance. It is also one of LW's most popular planes. It's not hard to understand why. Tons of 20mm cannon ammo and one of the fastest planes. Now, the reason it is an eny 15 plane is probably based on the fact that it can't turn worth a darn when it gets slow. It's lack of turn capability is a moot point though. The vast majority of the 190D9 pilots only use it for B&Z so why does it matter if it can't turn. They don't even try to turn it. The dynamic of the MA is to cut and run and this is the perfect plane for that 'avoid the fight' mentality.
It seems to me plane popularity is based primarily on Speed and Gun Lethality for the vast majority of the players in the MA. Take your cherry picks and get out of dodge. Since no one is using their planes to their Potential, why is Eny based on this? I'm sure Lusche has stats for the most popular planes in the LW handy somewhere which would also be nice to see.
So what do you think, Should Eny be based on Performance or Popularity?
P.S.
All perks should be Eny5. Obviously the 262 won't have a high popularity due to it's cost.
You obviously are a spit16 pilot.
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You obviously are a spit16 pilot.
Oh dear. :lol
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You obviously are a spit16 pilot.
:rofl
I'm sure I could beat you in every plane in the game, but that's beside the point.
I know enough about the dynamics of the game and have been around long enough in flight sims to be able to voice a thought without some ignorant fool taking a thoughtless jab at me. I bet you are a P51D pilot.
Did you even read my post? Your response doesn't even make sense.
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Takes thoughtless jab...... DOH hit my foot again!
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Hello Grizz,
I definitely say ENY should be set by the potential of an aircraft, not it's popularity. I am assuming that by popular you mean it's level of use in the MA's. Popularity is not a good measure of what an aircraft's ability can do to help a pilot to overcome his opponent. It is a measure of the MA populations top 10 list so to speak. I think there are probably planes both popular & unpopular that run the range on ENY from low potential to high potential. Although I will concede that most low ENY planes are probably quite popular. (Waiting for Lusche to come up with stats...) Some AH pilots can meet or exceed any aircraft's ENY potential, while a new pilot flying a high potential, popular, low ENY ride may never reach his/her chosen aircraft's true capabilities. So a measure of what an aircraft can do in a good pilot's hands truly is the best measure for establishing ENY.
Have a great day,
Way
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I definitely say ENY should be set by the potential of an aircraft, not it's popularity. I am assuming that by popular you mean it's level of use in the MA's. Popularity is not a good measure of what an aircraft's ability can do to help a pilot to overcome his opponent. It is a measure of the MA populations top 10 list so to speak. I think there are probably planes both popular & unpopular that run the range on ENY from low potential to high potential. Although I will concede that most low ENY planes are probably quite popular. (Waiting for Lusche to come up with stats...) Some AH pilots can meet or exceed any aircraft's ENY potential, while a new pilot flying a high potential, popular, low ENY ride may never reach his/her chosen aircraft's true capabilities. So a measure of what an aircraft can do in a good pilot's hands truly is the best measure for establishing ENY.
Thanks for your thoughts. I feel like I am looking at this from a different perspective from others and let me try to explain my view from a different light if I can. I see Eny as a tool to limit the overpopulated side's ability to just run over another chess piece with superior aircraft. I think we can all agree on that. So Eny in principle deals with population control. I'd say there's usually a side imbalance but the eny range is typically between 5-8 but can obviously be much higher as we have seen. If Eny's purpose is to deal with population control, then it seems to me plane popularity needs to be a factor there. If planes like the Typhoon and Fw190D9 (which are two of the most popular planes) are still readily available to the overpopulated side, it's just the same as not having Eny. Speed and Guns dictate gameplay in the MA. A gang will still dominate using B&Z tactics and these planes are 2 of the most deadly in this regard.
On a side note, the only thing that got me thinking about eny is when me and m00t try to take up the Ta152 and eny is at 7 and we can't fly it. Rather frustrating. If the 152 was set to 15 or whatever (some number out of range of typical eny control) then how would it really affect the imbalance of the arena? 3-4 extra pilots would be able to fly a plane that most would argue isn't that great under 20k. Side note end.
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Thanks for your thoughts. I feel like I am looking at this from a different perspective from others and let me try to explain my view from a different light if I can. I see Eny as a tool to limit the overpopulated side's ability to just run over another chess piece with superior aircraft. I think we can all agree on that. So Eny in principle deals with population control. I'd say there's usually a side imbalance but the eny range is typically between 5-8 but can obviously be much higher as we have seen. If Eny's purpose is to deal with population control, then it seems to me plane popularity needs to be a factor there. If planes like the Typhoon and Fw190D9 (which are two of the most popular planes) are still readily available to the overpopulated side, it's just the same as not having Eny. Speed and Guns dictate gameplay in the MA. A gang will still dominate using B&Z tactics and these planes are 2 of the most deadly in this regard.
On a side note, the only thing that got me thinking about eny is when me and m00t try to take up the Ta152 and eny is at 7 and we can't fly it. Rather frustrating. If the 152 was set to 15 or whatever (some number out of range of typical eny control) then how would it really affect the imbalance of the arena? 3-4 extra pilots would be able to fly a plane that most would argue isn't that great under 20k. Side note end.
Hello Grizz,
I am withholding any judgement on either the D9 or the Typhoon as I am still actively getting to know them and their capabilities. As far as the 152 (Love it) it is one of those ones that falls through the cracks. It has awesome potential with a good pilot flying in it's high altitude envelope, although there are great pilots that make her sing at low alt. Since most action in the MA's occurs less than 20k, then this plane will for the most part not be used to it's best potential. I would agree that it's ENY is too low as far as low altitude dogfighting is concerned, for high alt work we both know that she is an absolute monster. See what I mean about fell through the cracks? I think an ENY of 10 or so would be good, as it is the best balance of it's high potential at high alt and lowered potential at lower alt.
Have a great day,
Way
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:rofl
I'm sure I could beat you in every plane in the game, but that's beside the point.
I've been clobbered by you before (and most everyone else) and don't doubt this. Sincraft was making a joke there, I believe. I guess that's off limits.
More to the point, why do you need a 152 to fly when you could kill easily in a high ENY plane? If it means that much, you could fly for the low # side.
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I like your list, except f4f and fm2 eny needs to get higher, shouldnt be equal with zeke much less k4
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I've been clobbered by you before (and most everyone else) and don't doubt this. Sincraft was making a joke there, I believe. I guess that's off limits.
More to the point, why do you need a 152 to fly when you could kill easily in a high ENY plane? If it means that much, you could fly for the low # side.
I dunno, I was annoyed by his comment I guess, I typically have a good sense of humor. I didn't understand the joke I guess?
As for the 152, the fact that it's Eny is 5 is only because it is so good above 20k, other than that it might as well be a 15-20 Eny plane. And I do fly the low # side, but sometimes #'s fluctuate through primetime and when all the Muppets switch to one side, next thing you know the Eny spikes and you are stuck on a side with a 7 eny and can't fly what you want.
But more importantly I think Eny doesn't do a good job at stopping poor game play which is what it is designed to do. With popular fast planes like the Typh and 190D9 (I know I've brought these two planes up plenty because I think they are keys to poor game play in the LWs) always readily available to fly regardless of Eny, Eny doesn't serve any purpose in slowing down the timidness of the MA. If the timid player who typically flies the P51D all of a sudden can't fly it due to Eny, he'll hop in a Typh, if not that, a D9, all fast enough to support his timidness and lack of development as a pilot.
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... next thing you know the Eny spikes and you are stuck on a side with a 7 eny and can't fly what you want.
ENY spiked at 7???
You realize the only thing you can't fly at 7 is perked birds, Spit XVI, LA7, Ta152, and P-47N? Is it really that bad???
Be a little flexible. Spit dweeb? Spit IX is still a nice ride. It's all the cannon any way. There are many other capable rides out there. ENY moves around a lot anyway. Maybe patience is the key?
wrongway
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That doesn't sound like eny is the problem grizz.
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ENY spiked at 7???
You realize the only thing you can't fly at 7 is perked birds, Spit XVI, LA7, Ta152, and P-47N? Is it really that bad???
Be a little flexible. Spit dweeb? Spit IX is still a nice ride. It's all the cannon any way. There are many other capable rides out there. ENY moves around a lot anyway. Maybe patience is the key?
wrongway
Well considering all I fly these days is the 152, yes it's annoying :) I think in the last 5 months i've flown a spitfire maybe 4 times :) But I don't really care about this as much as others being able to fly popular, fast, lethal birds, despite the eny.
That doesn't sound like eny is the problem grizz.
My main point here is not about me. Forget about me and the 152. It's moot. My point is that Eny does nothing to improve the gameplay of the main arena and I've explained why already.
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ENY spiked at 7???
You realize the only thing you can't fly at 7 is perked birds, Spit XVI, LA7, Ta152, and P-47N? Is it really that bad???
Be a little flexible. Spit dweeb? Spit IX is still a nice ride. It's all the cannon any way. There are many other capable rides out there. ENY moves around a lot anyway. Maybe patience is the key?
wrongway
No thanks. The fact is that the 152 is unfairly restricted. I don't want to fly other or easier planes. Especialy not spits. And no, it's not a nice ride.
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In the LW arena...
The P47N has a far too low of an ENY and the Fw190A-8 has far too high of an ENY. Those 2 are both way off the mark, imo.
The P47N would have a more legit ENY if it were scored at 15 (the only real advantage it has over the other P47's is range). The Fw190A-8 would have a much more legit ENY if it were scored at 20-25. No other single engine plane can bring the amount of firepower to a battle like the Fw190A-8 with its dual 30mm, dual 20mm, and dual 13mm, and a single 500kg bomb. THe 190F-8 has a 20 ENY... explain to me why the 190A-8 has a 31???
Others, imo, that HTC needs to consider changing to a lower ENY are: 109K-4 (down to 15), P51D (down to 5), 110G-2 (down to 5), IL-2 (down to 15). Also, the following seem to be out of whack having too low of an ENY: Ta-152 (up to 15?), P38J (up to 25 due to lesser rockets and no dive recovery flaps, currently it is the SAME as the L model), P47D-10 (up to 30 ENY due to no rockets), SBD (up to 35-40).
That is it for now.... ;)
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15 is too high for the 152. 10 is fair enough.
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15 is too high for the 152. 10 is fair enough.
I never understood why it was ever perked at one time.
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What if ENY was based on pilots performance? A "uber tax" if you will. What I mean is some guys can take a 262 up and rank up the kills, me I run into things with it. Clearly I can't fly it well enough to justify paying 200 perkies for it. Now if I could fly it to it's strenghts and rain terror down on the main arena it should cost me alot to fly it. But I can assure you that if I'm in one, no one has to be afraid. But someone like Snailman for example can take a 262 out and come back with 5 or 10 kills.
Oh nevermind..I'm going to bed.(http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk121/TheAmish/Good_night.gif)
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The 152 is starting its emergence, much like the 109K did about 2 years ago. Like the 109K, the 152 will go from a little used aircraft to a much more popular aircraft but it will take time.
The interesting thing is the same group that introduced the 109K to the main population is doing the same to the 152.
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The 152 will never be more popular than the 190D, or the 190As. The almost total instabilities in the flight model means only a small niche market of flyers will really fly it with regularity.
Nowhere near the same as the K-4, which has had 109G10 fans since back in AH1 when it was introduced. That plane gained popularity for other reasons than firepower and speed at 40k, which are pretty much all the 152 has going for it :D
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But the 152 is catching up nicely right now. If M00t & Grizz keep flying it at the same rate, it may be even more next tour when I'm back in that Ta-152 too :D
(http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/7959/germanironpe8.jpg)
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Grizz will be off for sports season soon, and I'll probably hit the books all day long and quit pulling all nighters, maybe all the way to sept. And even then I'll be that much more involved in studying. It does seem to be used more than ever though. I don't know if that trend will keep its stats afloat. I think Grizz said he'd done 1k last tour, and I'll probably end up with 600-800 tops this one.
I never understood why it was ever perked at one time.
It was quite a bit more competitive back then. e.g. It clearly beat the P51D in all dives, and held speed much better. The tail was more manageable too, or that same (better still, back then) E retention helped it keep up in tight maneuvers even longer than it does now.
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Not to go off topic but it occurred to me maybe HTC has set eny to encourage use of a plane.
Everyone seems to focus on the negative aspect of eny,limiting one's ability to fly their choice,yet no one has pointed out that a 31 eny might encourage a few to fly that plane.
I'm not saying the values are correct as they are,just that having certain eny's attached to this or that A/C could boost it's use when otherwise it would sit in the hanger and all the work put into making it would go to waist.
:noid
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The 152 will never be more popular than the 190D, or the 190As.
According to Lusche's information, the 152 has already claimed more kills than the 190A5. You spoke WAY too soon...
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According to Lusche's information, the 152 has already claimed more kills than the 190A5. You spoke WAY too soon...
When me and moot go back into hibernation, the 152 kill total will drop in half :)
Btw Lusche, how do you get those stats again, I tried to go into Kill Stats expanded form but couldn't figure it out.
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When me and moot go back into hibernation, the 152 kill total will drop in half :)
Btw Lusche, how do you get those stats again, I tried to go into Kill Stats expanded form but couldn't figure it out.
Aces High 2 Plane Stats (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/newscores/planes.php)
wrongway
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According to Lusche's information, the 152 has already claimed more kills than the 190A5. You spoke WAY too soon...
Going by last month's stats (it's a full tour, at least)
749,762 kills by fighters, of which the Ta152H-1 only had 2717 kills.
2717 / 749,762 = 0.0036 (truncated).
So that's about 1/3 of 1%.
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But the 152 is catching up nicely right now. If M00t & Grizz keep flying it at the same rate, it may be even more next tour when I'm back in that Ta-152 too :D
(http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/7959/germanironpe8.jpg)
As of today it has 3,346 kills, but adding all the fighter kills up alone (not counting GVs, or bombers, or attack only planes, which will drive the % lower still) best case scenario it only has
3,346 / 170,863 = 0.019 (truncated), hardly even 2%, far below the top rankings.
Not sure how you're arriving at over 8% total kills with a piddly 3000??? :huh
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Looks like he just took german planes into account. What surprised me looking at total kills was the panzer had more kills than even the P51D. It's k/d ratio sucked but that other topic....guess this is aces low. Also noticed the 262 is way down in kills.
On topic I want the 205 to have a higher ENY...comeon 205 = 109k4 I don't think so. The K4 has so many more tricks up it's sleave. But I can shoot down a poorly flown K4 witha 205....so I don't know. There are several planes that need to be looked at again because I don't think eny has changed on any plane in the 2.5 years I have been here.
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On topic I want the 205 to have a higher ENY...comeon 205 = 109k4 I don't think so. The K4 has so many more tricks up it's sleave. But I can shoot down a poorly flown K4 witha 205....so I don't know. There are several planes that need to be looked at again because I don't think eny has changed on any plane in the 2.5 years I have been here.
Actually the 205 used to have a higher eny, 20 as it is set now, seems about appropriate for that plane. The k4 should probably be 10-15 eny though.
But if a plane has 20 eny or 40 eny, who cares? Eny caps will never (Well maybe once ina blue moon) prevent you from flying it. Perks? heh who cares.