Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: HighGTrn on February 16, 2009, 09:50:34 AM
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Anyone know if the WW2 guys actually used these flaps and if so, how prevalent was it used? Here in make believe land, using those flaps is just as important as using the throttle or stick in a fight. I just never hear those old guys talking about it.
S1n1ster
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If you watched the Dogfights about the F4U, there's an incident where a -U4 pilot uses one
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P51 pilots would come in for landing with full flaps, chopped throttle and 25 manifold pressure.That way if they had bad approach they could hit throttle and wep, pull out and make another attempt. I seen that in a training film for the P51B.Pony pilots would also weave back and forth while taxi because they couldn't see over the nose.In combat the high speed flaps were the bread and butter of the mustang.
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I dont think anyone in r/l 'hits full power and wep' on a bad approach without also making a bad ending.
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HighG,
I don't think flaps were utilized to the degree--or rather, in the manner--they were used in here.
For one, if you consider that in the historical aircraft the pilot didn't have a nice thumb toggle on his stick or throttle. There was an entirely separate lever for flaps, which under high-G loads would have probably been VERY difficult to reach.
On the other hand, some aircraft like the F4U and F6F had flaps that were operated via a spring. If the pilot exceeded the max speed for a given flap setting the flaps would be blown back up because the spring couldn't hold them down against the airflow. When the aircraft decelerated back below that speed during maneuvers the flaps would drop again. It wasn't uncommon for F4U and F6F pilots to set two notches of flaps for maneuvering and then leave it. "Automatic" flaps without literally being automatic.
Of course, some aircraft like the N1K2-J DID have automatic flaps
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Anyone know if the WW2 guys actually used these flaps and if so, how prevalent was it used? Here in make believe land, using those flaps is just as important as using the throttle or stick in a fight. I just never hear those old guys talking about it.
S1n1ster
WWII combat was basically about killing the other guy and making it home. And it really wasn't about you vs him, and seeing how much we can get an airplane to do. It was more team-oriented, us vs them, and very un-sportsman-like. The fights didn't need to be "fair" or "clean" to earn the respect of your teammates. An "AFK" kill was as honorable as any other...
AHII fights are much more me vs you. And simply winning isn't always the goal. In AHII winning on equal terms is much more acceptable than winning for the sake of winning. I may have won, but if I did it with an altitude advantage and killed you while you were engaged with three other guys it won't be viewed as a great accomplishment. We're also much more inclined to "see what this plane can do", even if it's far from recommended historical tactics.
To that end, I believe flaps are relied on infinitely more than they were in true combat, even if they were designed to be used and effective when used. I would guess we routinely use them more often, and to higher extremes than history would show. And our "normal" fights are (IMO) far from "normal" compared to history.
Beyond that, we're able to set up our virtual cockpit to be extremely user-friendly, which allows (at least in my experience) far from realistic control in certain situations, again leading to an increased use of flaps (and other aspects beyond just flaps).
For example- looking at cockpit photos of the F4U, I don't believe it would be possible (or at least easy) for me to manipulate throttle and flaps at the same time. I'd have to take my hand off the throttle to actuate the flaps. In AHII, I have the flaps mapped to a button on my throttle so I can do both at the same time.
Not only can I do those two things at the same time (which I often do), I can do it under any G-load, looking in any direction, while also dropping gear, jettisoning DT's, switching fuel tanks, and talking to my friends. I don't even have to concern myself with fuel mixture, mission goals, finding my way home, keeping my wingman safe, etc. If my wingman dies, it's a bummer, but I don't have to live with it forever. Simple bodily functions aren't as distracting and limiting as they would be in reality either, and I don't have to suffer a bad nights sleep disturbed by mosquitos and bombs and then try to perform well enough to survive the next days.
Because of these factors (and many more), I believe we're able to "get more" out of our virtual planes than almost any pilot would ever be able to do. The performance and limits of individual planes may be modeled as close as possible, but the pilots, the pilots duties, and the pilots limits aren't. Could a real corsair do what I can get mine to do? Probably, but not with a normal human pilot (IMO at least).
And if we were limited to what real pilots could do, and experienced what they really experienced, we might lose interest in playing, hehe.
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There's a story about Tommy McGuire (P-38 pilot) who got in a tight situation during an engagement. (I read this in a book by Caidin, he sometimes stretches the truth, so I'm not sure how true it is)
McGuire was on an escort mission to Manila. He saw 6 zeros attacking a straggling B-24 and came in. The zekes broke off the 24 and went after him. He flamed one right off. One zeke broke, which left McGuire with 4 zekes on him. McGuire went to dive away, but 2 zekes knew what he was doing (the 4 zekes were experienced pilots) and the dove early to catch him in a crossfire between them and the 2 higher zekes. McGuire saw them setting him up; so he put out the flaps and whipped the 38 right around, taking out an unexpecting zeke pilot, and another zeke broke off. He then retracted flaps and put the 38 into a steep dive and got the hell out of there.
There's a good example, I'd say it's completely possible that McGuire did this to fool the zekes, the last thing they were expecting was the 38 to put his flaps down and start mixing it up with them :)
edit: read the book quite a while ago, so every detail might not be perfect but I do remember there being 6 zekes
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Bud Anderson talked about a fight he had with a 109 where he used his first notch of flaps(10 degrees) in a dogfight to gain a better turning radius. Other than that, I have not heard of it much.
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I dont think anyone in r/l 'hits full power and wep' on a bad approach without also making a bad ending.
http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/P-51.html (http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/P-51.html) Yes I was wrong on that. What this film says at the 25 minute mark is that they set rpms at 2500 to be able to apply enough power in case of a bad landing and not over-rev the engine.
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Bud Anderson talked about a fight he had with a 109 where he used his first notch of flaps(10 degrees) in a dogfight to gain a better turning radius. Other than that, I have not heard of it much.
I remember one 109 pilot saying he used flaps a lot in an interview somewhere, I was quite surprised.
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There's a story about Tommy McGuire (P-38 pilot) who got in a tight situation during an engagement. (I read this in a book by Caidin, he sometimes stretches the truth, so I'm not sure how true it is)
McGuire was on an escort mission to Manila. He saw 6 zeros attacking a straggling B-24 and came in. The zekes broke off the 24 and went after him. He flamed one right off. One zeke broke, which left McGuire with 4 zekes on him. McGuire went to dive away, but 2 zekes knew what he was doing (the 4 zekes were experienced pilots) and the dove early to catch him in a crossfire between them and the 2 higher zekes. McGuire saw them setting him up; so he put out the flaps and whipped the 38 right around, taking out an unexpecting zeke pilot, and another zeke broke off. He then retracted flaps and put the 38 into a steep dive and got the hell out of there.
There's a good example, I'd say it's completely possible that McGuire did this to fool the zekes, the last thing they were expecting was the 38 to put his flaps down and start mixing it up with them :)
edit: read the book quite a while ago, so every detail might not be perfect but I do remember there being 6 zekes
He also snap rolled and died later on in the war using the same tactic :aok
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Concerning combat flaps I have one question that bothers me (okay 2) ... If you are in a nose high turn and you drop ten degrees flaps why does the airplane begin to snaproll? and what is that shake of the airframe about? It doesnt seem realistic.
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Concerning combat flaps I have one question that bothers me (okay 2) ... If you are in a nose high turn and you drop ten degrees flaps why does the airplane begin to snaproll? and what is that shake of the airframe about? It doesnt seem realistic.
approaching stall, and engine torque starts to take over. The shaking is very realistic!!
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Stall speed doesnt go down with flaps? Come to think of it the P51 flaps down braking action seems too severe which is why I try not to use them.
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Using Mustang mkIII's flaps in combat as told by one of the 315th sqdn pilots:
For 360 degree circle or more there was stalemate. I lowered flaps 10 degrees and was gaining on him. My solar plexus stopped churning as I felt sure of getting on his tail, all the time thinking: "Pull smoothly. Get that extra reserve throttle on".
(...)
When engaging the enemy low, over ground or sea, there was only one maneuver at the fighter pilot's disposal, an ideally constructed tight turn. When Mustang's speed dropped to 220-240 mph, by lowering 10 degrees of flaps the pilot could get on to his opponent's tail in no time. At a safe height, "Mysz" as he was affectionately known, and I, by altering the configuration of the Mustangs, proved it really worked.
There was considerable danger though. The Mustang was a great but unforgiving machine. When flaps were down, if pulled crudely, and at an even lower speed, say 200, it could stall. When told about our experiment, Horbaczewski would not have it. He told us not to discuss it with the other pilots, saying: "Flaps or no flaps, I don't want to see my pilots falling from the skies"
Quoted from here: http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/cwynar/cwynar.htm (http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/cwynar/cwynar.htm)
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I have used flaps while fighting in a p51. And yes I mean real plane and real flaps.
HiTech
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I have used flaps while fighting in a p51. And yes I mean real plane and real flaps.
HiTech
Not to hijack but i have heard of HiTech flying American birds ,but have you flown a 109 or something like a N1k or a Ki?
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And I took ya for a spit dweeb (http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk121/TheAmish/sSc_escape.gif)(http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk121/TheAmish/sSc_hiding2.gif)
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He also snap rolled and died later on in the war using the same tactic :aok
He was low over the water and carrying ords which he chose not to jetison. He was that good.... unfortunately in real life it only takes once. You don't get a new plane and start over. God Bless him!
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Regarding the Mustang and use of flaps in combat: http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mustang/combat-reports.html
Scroll down a bit, there is a section on "turn" and "use of flaps in combat"
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Did you see where the pony pilot says he out turned the 109s easily. He must be lieing because the AcesHigh ponys can't do that. :noid
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Sure, you can out-turn two weekers in the MA in the P51 against 109's.
Remember, late in the war (like... when the Americans were flying P51's over Germany) German pilots were terribly under-trained.
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Sure, you can out-turn two weekers in the MA in the P51 against 109's.
Remember, late in the war (like... when the Americans were flying P51's over Germany) German pilots were terribly under-trained.
good point
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I have used flaps while fighting in a p51. And yes I mean real plane and real flaps.
HiTech
Uhhh.....did you win? :devil
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He also snap rolled and died later on in the war using the same tactic :aok
No it wasn't the same tactic. get your facts straight. McGuire and 2 other 38s were on a fighter sweep. They encountered 1 zeke early on. He was higher than them. (At this time McGure was trying to catch Bong for #1 kill count) The zeke pounced one of the 38s. McGuire broke a HUGE rule...He didn;t jettison his drop tank because if he did that, it meant he would have to return to base early. McGuire turned to engage the zeke that was attacking his wingman, when the plane stalled out and he hit the ground.
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The following is taken from the first chapter of "To Fly And To Fight" the memoirs of Col. Anderson. The whole chapter can be found here.
http://www.cebudanderson.com/ch1.htm (http://www.cebudanderson.com/ch1.htm)
So the Messerschmitt is coming around again, climbing hard to his left, and I've had about enough of this. My angle is a little bit better this time. So I roll the dice. Instead of cobbing it like before and sailing on by him, I decide to turn hard left inside him, knowing that if I lose speed and don't make it I probably won't get home. I pull back on the throttle slightly, put down 10 degrees of flaps, and haul back on the stick just as hard as I can. And the nose begins coming up and around, slowly, slowly. . .
Hot damn! I'm going to make it! I'm inside him, pulling my sights up to him. And the German pilot can see this. This time, it's the Messerschmitt that breaks away and goes zooming straight up, engine at maximum power, without much alternative. I come in with full power and follow him up, and the gap narrows swiftly. He is hanging by his prop, not quite vertically, and I am right there behind him, and it is terribly clear, having tested the theory less than a minute ago, that he is going to stall and fall away before I do.
I have him. He must know that I have him.
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Using flaps in combat is one thing, but in a real WWII aircraft simply opening the throttle could be a laborious task. IIRC, an La-5 pilot required about 5 seconds of lever-moving/fiddling to change from cruise settings to war emergency power.
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Uptown, we also have present day pilots who have flown both the 109G and P-51D, and it's unambiguously clear to them that the 109 turns better.
As for a well-trained 109 pilot vs the P-51D... This is an enjoyable read, and I think it mentions using flaps in combat: ;)
".... this was my first major dogfight I had in the war, in January 1945. I was flying a P-51D and we were supposed to meet with bombers over Romania. Well, the bombers never showed up! and we kept circling and wasting our fuel. When we were low on fuel the squadron leader orders us back to base, with the top group at 24,000 feet and the four bait Mustangs ordered to 15,000 feet. Now you might not really think about it, but the difference in altitude, 9,000 feet, is almost two miles, and assuming that the top flight could dive and rescue the 'bait' airplanes, it might take a full sixty seconds or more for the top group to come to the rescue. A heck of alot can happen in sixty seconds. Earlier, I requested to fly in the bait section believing that I'd have a better chance to get some scores (at that time I had no victories either) and this was my seventh mission. I have to say now that I grew up in Kansas City, Kansas, and my older brother flew a Jenny biplane in the late 1930s, so I learned the basics of flying even before joining the Army. So we're all heading back to Italy when, all of a sudden, a dozen or so Me109's bounce us. From one moment it's a clear blue sky, next moment there are dozens' of tracers passing my cockpit. I'm hit several times and I roll over to the right, and below me is an P-51, heading for the deck, with an Me109 chasing him. I begin to chase the Me109. All this time I believe there was another Me109 chasing me! It was a racetrack, all four of us were racing for the finish line! Eventually I caught up with the first Me109 and I fired a long burst at about 1,000 yards, to no effect. Then I waited until about 600 yards, I fired two very long bursts, probably five seconds each (P-51 has ammo for about 18 seconds of continuous bursts for four machine guns, the remaining two machine guns will shoot for about 24 sec-onds). I noticed that part of his engine cowling flew off and he immediately broke off his attack on the lead P-51. I check my rear view mirrors and there's nothing behind me now; somehow, I have managed to lose the Me109 following me, probably because the diving speed of the P-51 is sixty mph faster than the Me109. So I pull up on the yoke and level out; suddenly a Me109 loomes about as large as a barn door right in front of me! And he fires his guns at me, and he rolls to the right, in a Lufberry circle. I peel off, following this Me109. I can see silver P-51s and black nosed camouflaged painted Me109s everywhere I look, there's Me109 or P-51 everywhere! At this time I cannot get on the transmitter and talk, everyone else in the squadron is yelling and talking, and there's nothing but yelling, screaming, and incoherent interference as everyone presses their mike buttons at the same time. I can smell something in the cockpit. Hydraulic fluid! I knew I got hit earlier.
.... I'm still following this Me109. I just got my first confirmed kill of my tour, and now I'm really hot. I believe that I am the hottest pilot in the USAAF! And now I'm thinking to myself: am I going to shoot this Me109 down too?! He rolls and we turn, and turn; somehow, I cannot catch up with him in the Lufberry circle, we just keep circling. About the third 360 degree turn he and I must have spotted two Mustangs flying below us, about 2,000 feet below, and he dives for the two P-51s. Now I'm about 150 yards from him, and I get my gunsight on his tail, but I cannot shoot, because if I shoot wide, or my bullets pass through him, I might shoot down one or both P-51s, so I get a front seat, watching, fearful that this guy will shoot down a P-51 we're approaching at about 390 mph. There's so much interference on the R/T I cannot warn the two Mustangs, I fire one very long burst of about seven or eight seconds purposely wide, so it misses the Mustangs, and the Me109 pilot can see the tracers. None of the Mustang pilots see the tracers either! I was half hoping expecting that they'd see my tracers and turn out of the way of the diving Me109. But no such luck. I quit firing. The Me109 still dives, and as he approaches the two P-51s he holds his fire, and as the gap closes, two hundred yards, one hundred yards, fifty yards the Hun does not fire a shot. No tracers, nothing! At less than ten yards, it looks like he's go-ing to ram the lead P-51 and the Hun fires one single shot from his 20mm cannon! And Bang! Engine parts, white smoke, glycol, whatnot from the lead P-51 is everywhere, and that unfortunate Mustang begins a gentle roll to the right. I try to watch the Mustang down, but cannot, Now my full at-tention is on the Hun! Zoom. We fly through the two Mustangs (he was taken POW). Now the advantage of the P-51 is really apparent, as in a dive I am catching up to the Me109 faster than a runaway freight train. I press the trigger for only a second then I let up on the trigger, I believe at that time I was about 250 yards distant, but the Hun was really pulling lots' of negative and positive g's and pulling up to the horizon, he levels out and then does a vertical tail stand! and next thing I know, he's using his built up velocity from the dive to make a vertical ninety degree climb. This guy is really an experienced pilot. I'm in a vertical climb, and my P-51 begins to roll clockwise violently, only by pushing my left rudder almost through the floor can I stop my P-51 from turning. We climb for altitude; in the straight climb that Me109 begins to out distance me, though my built up diving speed makes us about equal in the climb. We climb one thousand fifteen hundred feet, and at eighteen hundred feet, the hun levels his aircraft out. A vertical climb of 1,800 feet! I've never heard of a piston aircraft climbing more than 1,000 feet in a tail stand. At this time we're both down to stall speed, and he levels out. My airspeed indicator reads less than 90 mph! So we level out. I'm really close now to the Me109, less than twenty five yards! Now if I can get my guns on him.........
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At this range, the gunsight is more of nuisance than a help. Next thing, he dumps his flaps fast and I begin to overshoot him! That's not what I want to do, because then he can bear his guns on me. The P-51 has good armor, but not good enough to stop 20mm cannon hits. This Luftwaffe pilot must be one heck of a marksman, I just witnessed him shooting down a P-51 with a single 20mm cannon shot! So I do the same thing, I dump my flaps, and as I start to overshoot him, I pull my nose up, this really slows me down; S-T-A-L-L warning comes on! and I can't see anything ahead of me nor in the rear view mirror. Now I'm sweating everywhere. My eyes are burning because salty sweat keeps blinding me: 'Where is He!?!' I shout to myself. I level out to prevent from stalling. And there he is. Flying on my right side. We are flying side to side, less than twenty feet separates our wingtips. He's smiling and laughing at himself. I notice that he has a black heart painted on his aircraft, just below the cockpit. The propeller nose and spinner are also painted black. It's my guess that he's a very experienced ace from the Russian front. His tail has a number painted on it: "200". I wonder: what the "two hundred" means!? Now I began to examine his airplane for any bullet hits, afterall, I estimate that I just fired 1,600 rounds at the hun. I cannot see a single bullet hole in his aircraft! I could swear that I must have gotten at least a dozen hits! I keep inspecting his aircraft for any damage. One time, he even lifts his left wing about 15 degrees, to let me see the undercar-riage, still no hits! That's impossible I tell myself. Totally impossible. Then I turn my attention back to the "200" which is painted on the tail rudder. German aces normally paint a marker for each victory on their tail. It dawns on me that quick: TWO HUNDRED KILLS !! We fly side by side for five minutes. Those five minutes take centuries to pass. Less than twenty five feet away from me is a Luftwaffe ace, with over two hundred kills. We had been in a slow gradual dive now, and my altitude indicates 8,000 feet. I'm panicking now, even my socks are soaked in sweat. The German pilot points at his tail, obviously meaning the "200" victories, and then very slowly and dramatically makes a knife-cutting motion across his throat, and points at me. He's telling me in sign language that I'm going to be his 201 kill! Panic! I'm breathing so hard, it sounds like a wind tunnel with my mask on. My heart rate must have doubled to 170 beats per minute; I can feel my chest, thump-thump and so. This goes on for centuries, and centuries. The two of us flying at stall speed, wingtip to wingtip. I think more than once of simply ramming him. He keeps watching my ailerons, maybe that's what he expects me to do. We had heard of desperate pilots who, after running out of ammunition, would commit suicide by ramming an enemy plane. Then I decide that I can Immelmann out of the situation, as I began to climb, but because my flaps are down, my Mustang only climbs about one hundred feet, pitches over violently to the right and stalls. The next instant I'm dangerously spinning, heading ninety degrees vertically down! And the IAS reads 300 mph! My P-51 just falls like a rock to the earth! I hold the yoke in the lower left corner and sit on the left rudder, flaps up, and apply FULL POWER! I pull out of the dive at about 500 feet, level out, (I began to black out so with my left hand I pinched my veins in my neck to stop from losing blood). I scan the sky for anything! There's not a plane in the sky, I dive to about fifty feet elevation, heading towards Italy. I fly at maximum power for about ten minutes, and then reduce my rpm (to save gasoline), otherwise the P-51 has very limited range at full power. I fly like this for maybe an hour, no planes in the vicinity; all the time I scan the sky, check my rear view mirrors.
I never saw the Me109 with the black heart again. I mention the Me109 with the black heart and "200" written on the tail. That's when the whole room, I mean everybody, gets instantly quiet. Like you could hear a pin drop. Two weeks later the base commander shows me a telex: "....according to intelligence, the German pilot with a black heart is Eric Hartmann who has downed 250 aircraft and there is a reward of fifty thousand dollars offered by Stalin for shooting him down. I never heard of a cash reward for shooting down an enemy ace ... "
-Lawrence Thompson
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but in a real WWII aircraft simply opening the throttle could be a laborious task.
BS. If you get caught in cruise flight you'd have to move 3 levers: Mixture to rich, prop to high RPM and finally increase throttle.
If you're ready for a fight the mixture and prop will already be set...all you have to do is move the throttle lever.
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BS. If you get caught in cruise flight you'd have to move 3 levers: Mixture to rich, prop to high RPM and finally increase throttle.
That's a great example of "laborious" compared to what we do in the game. ;)
Oh, here's the wiki quote, evaluate the accuracy yourself:
In the summer of 1943, a brand-new La-5 made a forced landing on a German airfield providing Luftwaffe with an opportunity to test-fly the newest Soviet fighter. Test pilot Hans-Werner Lerche wrote a detailed report of his experience [1]. He particularly noted that the La-5FN excelled at altitudes below 3,000 meters (9,840 ft) but suffered from short range and flight time of only 40 minutes at cruise engine power. All of the engine controls (throttle, mixture, propeller pitch, radiator and cowl flaps, and supercharger gearbox) had separate levers which served to distract the pilot during combat to make constant adjustments or risk suboptimal performance. For example, rapid acceleration required moving no less than six levers. In contrast, contemporary German aircraft had largely automatic engine controls with the pilot operating a single lever and electromechanical devices making the appropriate adjustments. Due to airflow limitations, the engine boost system (Forsazh) could not be used above 2,000 meters (6,560 ft). Stability in all axes was generally good. The authority of the ailerons was deemed exceptional but the rudder was insufficiently powerful at lower speeds. At speeds in excess of 600 km/h (370 mph), the forces on control surfaces became excessive. Horizontal turn time at 1,000 meters (3,280 ft) and maximum engine power was 25 seconds.
Something tells me there was a lot more to working the engine than just 3 levers. ;) All you would've had to do was look up the same article before you got in a huff crying "BS."
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Wow Anaxogoras, that story you posted got me sweating! :eek: Very interesting, thank you!
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Stall speed doesnt go down with flaps? Come to think of it the P51 flaps down braking action seems too severe which is why I try not to use them.
your slowing down faster when flaps drop.... its creating drag and you will begin to stall out
-BigBOBCH
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Flaps change the angle of attack, which is the most crucial factor in stalling...
It can happen at any speed ;)
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I asked the Vet Pilot(forget his name) at the AH con several years back,if he had ever used his combat flaps in combat(he was a p51 pilot with several kills)...He said quite bluntly.."No"
I forget the name of his plane too.It was the year Drex retired.
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I asked the Vet Pilot(forget his name) at the AH con several years back,if he had ever used his combat flaps in combat(he was a p51 pilot with several kills)...He said quite bluntly.."No"
I forget the name of his plane too.It was the year Drex retired.
Seems you forgot more about the story then you remember about it.
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Flaps change the angle of attack, which is the most crucial factor in stalling...
It can happen at any speed ;)
spot on
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He was low over the water and carrying ords which he chose not to jetison. He was that good.... unfortunately in real life it only takes once. You don't get a new plane and start over. God Bless him!
Actually, he was over the jungle and carrying drop tanks, but your point still holds. Nobody was better than Tommy at pushing the limit. He was notorious for the abuse he heaped on his plane, and other pilots often commented that "Pudgy" never seemed to track quite "straight" (kinda like a car that's been in a wreck ;)) The day he died, even HIS skill couldn't compensate for being low, slow, & heavy.
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Wow Anaxogoras, that story you posted got me sweating! :eek: Very interesting, thank you!
A good story, but there is some doubt over its authenticity. Apparently Eric Hartmann and his unit had left Romania quite some time earlier.
I haven't checked it myself, but I have seen the controversy discussed elsewhere and the consensus seems to be that it wasn't Hartmann.
Badboy
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It's very plausible that it wasn't Hartmann, I agree. Some pilots flew 109s that looked like Hartmann's just for the psychological impact.
I also suspect that it was a 30mm Mk 108 that downed the 51 in the story, and not a 20mm MG 151.
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Did you see where the pony pilot says he out turned the 109s easily. He must be lieing because the AcesHigh ponys can't do that. :noid
Depets on the speed of the aircraft involved. Won't a 300mph Pony out turn a 300mph 109 in AH2?
wrongway
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Depets on the speed of the aircraft involved. Won't a 300mph Pony out turn a 300mph 109 in AH2?
wrongway
Not at 300mph, but at 400mph, yes.
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It's very plausible that it wasn't Hartmann, I agree. Some pilots flew 109s that looked like Hartmann's just for the psychological impact.
I also suspect that it was a 30mm Mk 108 that downed the 51 in the story, and not a 20mm MG 151.
Hartmann did some effective work with the MG151. Though I would imagine that the one shot was just an exaggeration. In any case, if it was Hartmann, it would have been an MG151, as he didn't like the MK108.
In any case, this sounds like something that would have been mentioned in 'the Blonde Knight of Germany', however the only encounters with Mustangs that are described are his first (in which he shot down 5), and a few days later (where he was forced to bail out). That story doesn't sound anything like either of them, and in general it doesn't sound in any way like Hartmann would fly, being the 'picker' that he was.
Hartmann never really had 200 kills, he scored kills 193-202 on the same day. And I'm sure the pilot would have noticed 60 more kill bars under the 200, as by the time he encountered Mustangs over Ploesti this is what his tally was closer to (his first 5 Mustangs were kills 262-266). This is if Hartmann was even still marking his kills, I know he stopped by August '44 (by which time he had scored 300). In mid-1944 I don't think there were any other pilots in 9./JG52 with 200+ kills.... this sounds like it was a bit.... embellished :)
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Still a good story none the less. :aok
Now if only i could spook a P51 pilot like in that story... :noid
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He also snap rolled and died later on in the war using the same tactic :aok
The snap roll and subsequent spin into the ground was not a result of him using flaps or the turn at the time of the engagement. His plane spun in due to asymetrical power being applied, if done incorrectly in the P-38, it would have a tendency to enter into a violent snap rolling and spin which at very low altitudes would be virtually impossible to pull out of.
ack-ack
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No it wasn't the same tactic. get your facts straight. McGuire and 2 other 38s were on a fighter sweep. They encountered 1 zeke early on. He was higher than them. (At this time McGure was trying to catch Bong for #1 kill count) The zeke pounced one of the 38s. McGuire broke a HUGE rule...He didn;t jettison his drop tank because if he did that, it meant he would have to return to base early. McGuire turned to engage the zeke that was attacking his wingman, when the plane stalled out and he hit the ground.
Wrong on your part as well. There were four planes in McGuire's flight, not three. Rittmayer was killed by a head on pass, and McGuire snap rolled and went in, most likely when the plane he was flying did not respond to his throttle work the way he expected. McGuire was not flying his own plane that day, but rather another plane from the squadron that had been worked over the night before. Weaver and the other pilot, Thropp I believe, made it back to base, and Weaver informed Mac that Rittmayer and McGuire were down and burning. The first enemy plane encountered was NOT higher, but in fact lower.
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He also snap rolled and died later on in the war using the same tactic :aok
Congratulations on not having the slightest idea what you are talking about. See my previous post on the death of Major Thomas B. McGuire. Because you evidently know nothing of what you speak.
The best theory is that when McGuire went to throttle back up, the inside engine did not respond, and he rolled inverted and could not recover. Unless asymmetric power is applied, the P-38 has a very strong tendency to mush out of a turn rather than snap roll. The P-38 simply didn't roll with great authority unless it was at fairly high speed, or asymmetric power was applied.
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Something tells me there was a lot more to working the engine than just 3 levers. ;) All you would've had to do was look up the same article before you got in a huff crying "BS."
Throttle, prop and mixture control the engine. If super/turbo charged there will be a control for that, but probably wouldn't have to be adjusted right away. The cowl flaps you can also ignore until an adjustment is needed to control engine heat. (Just because you're making more power doesn't alway mean the engine will be hotter -- if you're also going faster there is more airflow for cooling).
I guess the 3400 hours I've spent flying airplanes, 600 of which is in WWII aircraft, makes me think the way I do. I only takes about 5 seconds to bring the power up on the B-24 and that requires moving 8 levers and 4 toggle switches. <G>
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your slowing down faster when flaps drop.... its creating drag and you will begin to stall out
Flaps do add drag so you will slow quicker but that doesn't mean you're going to stall. A competent pilot will adjust pitch as needed to prevent the stall.
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600 of which is in WWII aircraft
Cool! Which WWII aircraft have you flown?
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Congratulations on not having the slightest idea what you are talking about. See my previous post on the death of Major Thomas B. McGuire. Because you evidently know nothing of what you speak.
The best theory is that when McGuire went to throttle back up, the inside engine did not respond, and he rolled inverted and could not recover. Unless asymmetric power is applied, the P-38 has a very strong tendency to mush out of a turn rather than snap roll. The P-38 simply didn't roll with great authority unless it was at fairly high speed, or asymmetric power was applied.
Although the main cause may be attributed to a mechanical failure (if the theory is valid, that is) , I don't think over aggressiveness can be ruled out as an important background that ulitmately led to his death - especially, since this is McGuire we're talking about.
Therefore, I'd say that tactical misjudgement did play some part in his death. Would McGuire have had enough time to try and bail were he not so aggressive in his last encounter? I think so.
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Overconfidence, impetuousness, and dangerously high preference towards dogfighting that directly contradicts the general tactical recommendations against fighting better maneuvering planes, is all a death factor that claimed innumerable many young pilots - much more than 'aces' have been born out of them. Landing 14-round HO shots to the cockpit to kill the pilot is something that works for people like Marseilles, but would never amount up to much as a standard tactic. The same with 'flapfest' dogfighting.
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Although the main cause may be attributed to a mechanical failure (if the theory is valid, that is) , I don't think over aggressiveness can be ruled out as an important background that ulitmately led to his death - especially, since this is McGuire we're talking about.
Therefore, I'd say that tactical misjudgement did play some part in his death. Would McGuire have had enough time to try and bail were he not so aggressive in his last encounter? I think so.
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Overconfidence, impetuousness, and dangerously high preference towards dogfighting that directly contradicts the general tactical recommendations against fighting better maneuvering planes, is all a death factor that claimed innumerable many young pilots - much more than 'aces' have been born out of them. Landing 14-round HO shots to the cockpit to kill the pilot is something that works for people like Marseilles, but would never amount up to much as a standard tactic. The same with 'flapfest' dogfighting.
In the particular fight that is the subject of this hijack, McGuire was trying hard, not just to score but to clear his own wingman, Weaver. Now, was it an aggressive decision for McGuire to call that drop tanks shouldn't be dropped, earlier in the fight? Yes. Was it out of line, considering McGuire knew he had three other good pilots with him against a single plane? It may or may not have been. For years, no one, including Weaver and Thropp, who were there, even knew of a second enemy plane being involved. So holding tanks when you have the odds in your favor 4 to 1 might be questionable, but you can see that given what they knew of the situation, it may not have seemed out of line.
That is not to say that McGuire was not very aggressive, possibly to a fault, he may well have been, more cautious pilots thought he was. McGuire stated not long before he died that he feared his luck could be running out. He felt he could not go home of his own will, he felt that he should wait until he was ordered to go home in no uncertain terms. And he knew the only way for that to happen was to equal or exceed Bong's score. The only way to do that was to fly and to score, as he also felt he could not order others to fly while he sat safely behind a desk.
McGuire's death, like most other things of that nature, can be attributed not to any one thing, but a series of circumstances that, had any one of those circumstances been altered even slightly, an entirely different outcome would have been very likely. Did McGuire contribute to his own death? Quite possibly. Was it entirely due to his flying style and tactics? Probably not.
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On a side note (to a hijack lol) here are a couple of interesting quotes that relate to McGuire:
This is from General Kenney's book on Bong...
"You see, General," said Tommy (McGuire), "that Fourty-ninth gang up at Tacloban didnt want Dick (Bong) going along with them any more, as he was stealing too many Nips from them, so he came down here to see if we would let him fly with the 475th. We figured we were good enough so we could take care of our own interests along that line, so we said it would be okay. This morning he saw me getting ready to take off for a look at the Jap fields over on Mindanno and suggested that he go along. I had a hunch I shouldnt have let him come with me, but I had to be polite, so I gave in. We picked up a wingman apiece and took off.
"we cruised all over the island looking for something to shoot at, but the bombers and strafers have about cleaned the place out. We had just decided to call it off and go home when we spotted a couple of Oscars just ahead of us, near Pamubulon Island, flying low just over the treetops. There were on my side and I figured mabey Dick hadnt seen them so I barely whispered over the radio to my wingman to follow me and I dive to take one of the Nips. One nice burst, and down he goes. I turn to knock off the other Oscar but this eavesdropping Bong (motioning to Dick who was now sitting across the tent grinning) had heard me talking to my wingman and had located the Nip. Before I could get in position, I saw him blow up and Bong pulls up alongside of me waggling his wings and grinning at me, like the highway robber he is. That makes him thirty-nine and me thirty-one. Im still eight behind. I bet when this war is over, they'll call me Eight Behind McGuire."
Chris Herman wrote in a letter home:
"I flew with both 'Macs' {McGuire and Mac Donald} in a couple of fights now and need a new plane. Both wings were sprung and wrinkled from racking around at excessive speeds and dive recoveries - its one hell of a job to fly with McGuire, and his plane is in the same shape....I'm usually No 3 man in his flight when he takes the Squadron out - expects me to stay for at least three of four passes, or till we get things split up and going our way. Then he doesn't give a damn what happens, but hates to find himself suddenly all alone down on the deck!"
John Tilley:
Mac told those under his command never to turn with an enemy fighter in the heavy 38 but he did it anyway with great sucess, particularly at low altitudes and low airspeeds of 90 mph. Although dogfighting in the Lightning was often played down officially, it was more common than not. Tilley remembered 'most of our fights with the Japanese started out above 20,000 feet but damned soon everyone was milling around on the deck. And that lovely Lightning just didn't have any competition at low altitude. Ive flown the P-51 (liked it very much) and the P-47 (disliked it very much), and Ive engaged in mock dogfights against just about all our WWII fighter planes. The only one the ole Lockheed Rocking Chair and I had trouble staying behind was a pretty savvy Navy type in an F4f Wildcat.
My checkout flight was on Tom McGuires[15] wing and it was a wild One. I've never worked harder staying on someone's tail. That guy was probably the best fighter pilot I've ever flown with, but he couldn't shake me off his tail – so I was then and there declared "combat qualified." It wasn't till many missions later that I thought I was "combat qualified."
Everything considered, I don't believe our losses were excessive but we did lose too many pilots not due to enemy action. Some of our very best pilots were lost this way. In the final analysis even Tom McGuire killed himself by trying to dogfight without first dropping his almost full belly tanks.
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Well, it appears that flap usage is much more prevalent in our game than it was in real life. Interesting because I fly the p38 almost exclusively. I can tell you that damage to my flaps in a 38 is an automatic trip back to the runway.
If find that I mostly use my flaps when topping out in the vertical. Be it a loop or a high yo-yo, those flaps really get my nose back around quick. I also find that in these situations, most of my kills are deflection shots in the engine or cockpit of the bad guy. I rarely get in the saddle with the 38. Is this normal?
S1n1ster