Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: opposum on March 02, 2009, 09:24:57 PM
-
Hey guys, I am looking at the AR15's and well.... there are sooooo many to choose from!!!
I have narrowed what I want down to be AR15 in the .223 caliber but... which company should I buy from?
I was watching the youtube video of the Bushmaster Preditor, and well, it looked liked it jammed terribly often, was that just because of a bad ammo choice or was it the gun?
next, which .223 ammo do you find to be the best quality? Is there any cheap, good quality .223 ammo out there?
Do any of yall own AR15's? if so what do you have and are you happy with it?
thanks for the help!
opposum
-
Colt 6920.
-
Are you buying a 5.56 NATO or a Rem .223 caliber rifle?
There is a big enough difference in the 2 rounds that a gun can blow up in your face.
http://www.hornadyle.com/faq/index.php?qIdx=3 (http://www.hornadyle.com/faq/index.php?qIdx=3)
-
Are you buying a 5.56 NATO or a Rem .223 caliber rifle?
There is a big enough difference in the 2 rounds that a gun can blow up in your face.
http://www.hornadyle.com/faq/index.php?qIdx=3 (http://www.hornadyle.com/faq/index.php?qIdx=3)
that I haven't decided yet,
which rounds work better in your opinion?
opposum
-
Look at a DPMS Panther Arms, an Armalite, and a Bushmaster. All of them make a nice weapon, at a decent price.
Get the 5.56 NATO chamber. You're not going to end up with a 14" barrel anyway, and a 5.56 NATO chamber in a 16" or 18" barrel will fire either round, and function reliably. It will probably not shoot regular .223 Remington ammunition as accurately, but you will be able to chamber and fire either one, and you can get surplus 5.56 NATO amunition, provided you look around and shop.
-
I received an email this morning with the following links:
Stripped Lower
http://essentialarms.com/ieLOWERSANDPARTS.HTML (http://essentialarms.com/ieLOWERSANDPARTS.HTML)
AR Kit
http://www.del-ton.com/AR_15_Rifle_Kits_16_s/57.htm (http://www.del-ton.com/AR_15_Rifle_Kits_16_s/57.htm)
You can do a base model for under $600 and read the reviews....pretty good. I will be ordering soon.
Regards,
YAF1
-
thanks for the help guys :) :)
opposum
-
I have narrowed what I want down to be AR15 in the .223 caliber but... which company should I buy from?
If you get a .223 AR rifle you may have problems firing 5.56mm rounds. But if you get a 5.56mm you likely will not have problems firing .223. Consider 5.56mm is slightly more powerful than .223. It also seems to be slightly cheaper right now.
But, why are you buying an AR-15 anyway? Ammo prices for 5.56mm are so high right now becuase of the war and the fact it is the most common ammo. You will be paying $200-250 for 1000 rounds.
Are you buying this just for plinking, for hunting, for home defense, or for the full on survival/SHTF/when the zombies come scenarios? Or like most of us, a little of each? I would argue there are better weapons for each individual case, and a single rifle that can do them all, both more effectively and more affordably than the AR.
-For plinking you can find much cheaper caliber guns that are just as much fun to shoot.
-For hunting the 5.56mm is just not enough energy except for small game.
-For close range home defense you are better off with many other types of weapons. IMHO for in home defense the best weapon hands down is a short barreled 12g shotgun, and just about every military and police force in the world agree.
-For full on survival, when you may be required to use a weapon to feed yourself AND protect yourself, the 5.56 is again just not enough of a round in my opinion, especially if/when you are by yourself.
The AR-15/M16 was designed around the 5.56 round so more rounds could be carried. It was designed for specific battle situations when suppressive fire is used. In many battles it was found that having cover fire in massive amounts was very effective at pinning down the enemy until you could out maneuver them or otherwise gain an advantage. Its also accurate to fairly long distances, but the stopping power drops off rapidly.
Chances are in any home defense or dooms day scenarios, you will never be in a position like this. Going in Rambo style laying down heavy fire will probably get you killed quicker than anything. Situations you encounter will likely not be anything like the battles we see in wars. If you want to survive you'll do everything you can to avoid a firefight. Shooting people at more than 100 meters is also unlikely in a non-military type defense situation, but shooting big game at that range might be required often. In these more realistic situations, it would be better to have a weapon that is very effective at taking down all targets at all ranges.
Personally I would recommend getting something like a M1 Garand or M1A. Use the money you save on your first few cases of ammo to buy some good optics, and you'll have an ultra reliable battle rifle that is cheaper to shoot and a lot more effective in a realistic real life scenario than an AR-15. If the SHTF you'll be able to feed your family by taking down almost any animal in North America, and you'll be able to drop tangos with one shot. Ammo for either one is slightly more affordable than the AR, but more importantly drastically more effective than 5.56mm, meaning your supply will last longer when you need it the most.
-
I bought a Smith & Wesson M&P AR-15A a year ago and I love it. It was one of the higher end models at the time costing around $1,300 total but still less than a Colt model. The one I have is the carbine version with the fully collapsible stock and 16 inch barrel I believe..
So far I have fired around 800 rounds through it without any problems. It is light and accurate even with the stock peep sights on it. I plan to get an ACOG or an Eo Tech sight eventually but I can still nail any target with the iron sights, another cool option is that it came with the rail system on top instead of the traditional carrying handle and the existing sight can slide right on or off allowing for a quick scope mounting.
As far as ammo, I bought 1,000 rounds of Lellier & Bellot (Czech ammo) .223 55 grain FMJ rounds at an Army/Navy store and it has worked out just fine. The only problem is that you have to clean the weapon every time you shoot it much like any other AR-15/M-16 rifle. Gas blowback systems really do blow.
All in all, I prefer my rifle over any of the ones my friends have such as DPMS and Bushmaster brands. It feels very solid and doesn't make the "pinging" noise most others do when it is fired. Its the closest civilian model weapon I have fired so far that matches up to the ones we use in the Army.
-
Get an AR-10, same action and all but in .308. Bigger = Better :)
-
The AR-10 is cool too, but a little harder to find parts and magazines.
If you want a battle rifle, just get a big gun that leaves you with enough money to buy plenty of ammo, and you can't go wrong. In a self defense or even Armageddon type situation, those two factors alone will likely outweigh everything else.
If you just want something fun to plink with, there are a number of .22 battlerifle-like auto loaders that are a blast to shoot, and ammo will cost you less than 1/10th of anything else we are talking about.
-
I was planning on buying the 5x56 or the .223 ar15 just for fun, something to run around with for shooting poo up, seems like a fun plinker, yea I don't beleive in any of that doomsday crap
does anyone know if that new R-15 remington is worth buying? seems like a nice rifle too
opposum
-
I was planning on buying the 5x56 or the .223 ar15 just for fun, something to run around with for shooting poo up, seems like a fun plinker,
Maybe you missed what I said earlier, I'll try to be more clear.
The AR-15 is just a poor choice as a plinker because of recent ammo prices. This was not the case in the recent past, when you could still find bulk 5.56NATO ammo very cheap.
Most of the information you are reading that recommends the AR-15 for plinking or general use is probably outdated, written before the recent drastic price increases.
Every time you shoot the AR-15 its going to cost you about quarter, probably even more soon. That doesn't sound like a very fun "plinker" to me.
-
For a simple plinker, I'd suggest getting one of the AK series that's been rechambered to fire .22LR or a similar plinking round. They aren't all that expensive, and it looks a lot cooler than a marlin .22 when you shoot it. :)
-
For a simple plinker, I'd suggest getting one of the AK series that's been rechambered to fire .22LR or a similar plinking round. They aren't all that expensive, and it looks a lot cooler than a marlin .22 when you shoot it. :)
do you have a link to it?
thanks,
opposum
-
do you have a link to it?
thanks,
opposum
JFGI (http://www.google.com/search?q=AK-47+22lr&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a)!
BTW asking advice about guns on a game forum doesn't really show a lot of effort. There are countless gun forums that have answered every question you can probably think of several times over. Google is your friend, learn it, use it.
-
Check this forum out
will find better answers to your questions
http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/viewforum.php?f=48&sid=e37ce58de8b7b34f24c38bacd29bd54e (http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/viewforum.php?f=48&sid=e37ce58de8b7b34f24c38bacd29bd54e)
I have a Mini-14 so i can shoot both rem .223 and NATO 5.56 but we always use .223 just because its cheaper.
you probably not be able to use .223 in most 5.56 guns because they are not powerful enough and will not cycle
-
I haven't looked at ammunition prices in a few years. I was really surprised at the big jump in cost.
For example, I purchased two 200 round cans of linked 7.62 NATO ball ammo for $29 each back in 2003. Today, that same Singapore made ammo is selling for up to 70 cents a round. I haven't even opened the cans yet. I have 12 loaded CETME mags stored (with aftermarket 17-7PH SS springs that will not sack-out). So, I don't expect to need the linked ammo anytime soon. Good thing too...
My regards,
Widewing
-
ok I admit, I am a puss when it comes to recoil, does the .308 kick hard??? :o :o :o
thanks,
opposum
-
ok I admit, I am a puss when it comes to recoil, does the .308 kick hard??? :o :o :o
thanks,
opposum
Yes. I have one. It kicks. But it is a great round.
-
Also check the AR15.com forums, they have tone of info on manufacturers, also on how to build your ar if you go that way.
AKHog, I don't where you get your ammo, but I haven't seen 556 lower than $350 a case lately...
-
.308 kick hard?...not really.
I have an ak-47 semi auto w/ 4 30 round mags, Russian made side mount scope (don't think you can buy them in the US anymore) and about 2000 rounds of ammo on hand. To me it's a fun plinker...blast to run though 30 rounds as fast as you can pull the trigger....hehe. Have about 400$
What something that kicks and makes you wish you never bought the gun...had that experience. Bought a 30-06 semi auto with stock and extended 10 round mag. Try running 10 30-06 rounds as fast as you can reacquire the target....ouch. Sure someone is going to pipe in and say I am a wussy. But I sold that gun was fun to shoot and here in Indiana can't hunt anything with it. But I was watching a hunting show and a guy dropped a moose from 1000yards with a 30-06...so it has stopping power.
-
.308 kick hard?...not really.
I have an ak-47 semi auto w/ 4 30 round mags, Russian made side mount scope (don't think you can buy them in the US anymore) and about 2000 rounds of ammo on hand. To me it's a fun plinker...blast to run though 30 rounds as fast as you can pull the trigger....hehe. Have about 400$
What something that kicks and makes you wish you never bought the gun...had that experience. Bought a 30-06 semi auto with stock and extended 10 round mag. Try running 10 30-06 rounds as fast as you can reacquire the target....ouch. Sure someone is going to pipe in and say I am a wussy. But I sold that gun was fun to shoot and here in Indiana can't hunt anything with it. But I was watching a hunting show and a guy dropped a moose from 1000yards with a 30-06...so it has stopping power.
.308 recoil up against the ak47 recoil which one kicks harder?
lol sorry for the lame noob questions lol
thanks,
opposum
-
Depends alittle on the gun but the 308 does kick harder.
If you want a fun cheap plinker that has some power pick up a Ak-47. Ar-15 are fun but not cheap to buy or shoot.
If you get a AK-47 have fun with it. Wrap your bed sheets around you put a towel on your head and run down the road yelling "Jihad!!!!!!!"....kidding!
-
Depends alittle on the gun but the 308 does kick harder.
If you want a fun cheap plinker that has some power pick up a Ak-47. Ar-15 are fun but not cheap to buy or shoot.
If you get a AK-47 have fun with it. Wrap your bed sheets around you put a towel on your head and run down the road yelling "Jihad!!!!!!!"....kidding!
LOL! cut eye holes in a pillow case and wear that instead along with the sheets around you LOL!
-
I prefer the AR-10 to the AR-15, but then I'm just a 30 caliber guy. In fact, I don't own much that isn't 30 caliber or bigger. The local gun shop guys call me a recoil junkie. The AR-10 has pretty low recoil, and the round itself is far more inherently accurate, and far more effective. The point being, if you are going to pony up a big price, get all you can get for your money. Depending on how things go, the AR-10 308 may not be that much more expensive to shoot than the AR 15 223/5.56 NATO.
Yes, the AK and SKS stuff in 7.62x39 is cheap to shoot. It is also less accurate and less powerful, so it has less utility than the 308 in the AR 10, unless you just want to spray a lot of cheap ammo from a cheaper rifle.
With guns, you do not always get what you pay for, but you rarely if ever get what you do not pay for. Meaning if you pay a lot less for a rifle, expect a lot less rifle.
-
By the way, this really isn't that bad a place to ask firearms questions. There are some very knowledgeable and helpful people on this board when it comes to firearms. Though most of us moved off to the flamewarriors board, some stayed, and many look in at both places.
-
Yes, the AK and SKS stuff in 7.62x39 is cheap to shoot. It is also less accurate and less powerful, so it has less utility than the 308 in the AR 10, unless you just want to spray a lot of cheap ammo from a cheaper rifle.
Not anymore, 7.62x39 is getting really tough to find deals on or even find itself.
-
Recoil is often subjective and also, in part, controlled by rifle/stock construction. Be that as it may a 7.62x54 chambered military rifle is tossing out a 150 grn class pill at roughly the same velocity as the 5.56mm M-16 shoots a 55 grn, or 62grn, bullet. So the 7.62 NATO round will probably have more felt recoil. Not that any of this is a problem however. The 7.62 rifle will probably be heavier, longer, and able to soak up recoil better.
If it makes you feel better then keep in kind that countless millions of troops throughout history were able to learn to shoot the .30 cals, 7mms, 8mms, 7.62mms that make up this class of military rifle. I have found their recoil so light as to be a non-issue. And even if your recoil sensitive these are not heavily recoiling rifles. Then again I have a .375 H&H that I find "soft" to shoot due its weight and stock by Winchester. It feels "lighter" to me recoil-wise then many a .300 or .338 mag, even a 3006 or two.
In my mind I consider the 7.62 NATO the best military rifle round ever made. I do understand why we made the move to the 5.56mm, even more why we stayed with it. But "perfection" was found in the M1A1 and 7.62 NATO.
-
JFGI (http://www.google.com/search?q=AK-47+22lr&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a)!
BTW asking advice about guns on a game forum doesn't really show a lot of effort. There are countless gun forums that have answered every question you can probably think of several times over. Google is your friend, learn it, use it.
Well, actually the argument could be made that it is a very wise decision to ask about guns here. Despite it being a "game" forum there are ALOT of us that are avid hunters, collectors, survivalist and just guys that know guns.
Also he probably feels comfortable asking here due to being around a lil bit and getting to know us....err atleast in a virtual cyber sense. I know that sounds odd but in a weird way we are all like friends and even value each others opinion, knowledge ect.
When something good happens to one of us and the rest of us are informed of it that person is greeted with a bunch of :salute or :rock and congrats. If its something bad we all send our condolences, prayers and feel sad for that person.
Sure we have some black sheep in our rather large dysfunctional family but in general we are caring compassionate and in general good folks.
I'm suprised some psyc majaor hasn't done a paper on the dynamics and interaction of this or other online community that is reletivly close nit like ours is.
Kinda gives ya a warm feeling all over :huh
I know i know there will be plenty of gratuitous :noid due to this post :aok
-
.308 is definitely the way to go if you ever expect to shoot for your survival. Sure you can haul more 5.56 rds with you, but with my M1A I know I only have to hit the target once.
IIRC, both the AR's in .308 (Armalite & DPMS) have had some durability issues in the past. Maybe the others can shed more light on this. Also, the last time I checked, AR-10 mags were rediculously expensive, whether you were buying them new, or having M-14 mags modified.
Just my .02 :salute
-
you probably not be able to use .223 in most 5.56 guns because they are not powerful enough and will not cycle
Not true. I shoot both .223 and 5.56 in my AR15 and cycles both reliably. I've put over 5000 rounds thru mine and have yet to have a FTF or FTE on either type. If 223 doesn't cycle a 5.56 chambered gun, you are either shooting crappy ammo, or the rifle needs a serious cleaning.
ETA - you may want to consider the 6.8 spc. Better downrange ballistics than the .308, heavier hitting than the 5.56. My next AR build is going to be a 6.8
-
Not true. I shoot both .223 and 5.56 in my AR15 and cycles both reliably. I've put over 5000 rounds thru mine and have yet to have a FTF or FTE on either type. If 223 doesn't cycle a 5.56 chambered gun, you are either shooting crappy ammo, or the rifle needs a serious cleaning.
ETA - you may want to consider the 6.8 spc. Better downrange ballistics than the .308, heavier hitting than the 5.56. My next AR build is going to be a 6.8
Agreed. I've put plenty of .223 & 5.56 thru my Bushmaster w/o a single malfunction of any kind.
(I have split case necks on reloads, but that's just because I was too lazy to anneal the cases beforehand. That Lake City brass is HARD :) )
-
Recoil is often subjective and also, in part, controlled by rifle/stock construction. Be that as it may a 7.62x51 chambered military rifle is tossing out a 150 grn class pill at roughly the same velocity as the 5.56mm M-16 shoots a 55 grn, or 62grn, bullet. So the 7.62 NATO round will probably have more felt recoil. Not that any of this is a problem however. The 7.62 rifle will probably be heavier, longer, and able to soak up recoil better.
If it makes you feel better then keep in kind that countless millions of troops throughout history were able to learn to shoot the .30 cals, 7mms, 8mms, 7.62mms that make up this class of military rifle. I have found their recoil so light as to be a non-issue. And even if your recoil sensitive these are not heavily recoiling rifles. Then again I have a .375 H&H that I find "soft" to shoot due its weight and stock by Winchester. It feels "lighter" to me recoil-wise then many a .300 or .338 mag, even a 3006 or two.
In my mind I consider the 7.62 NATO the best military rifle round ever made. I do understand why we made the move to the 5.56mm, even more why we stayed with it. But "perfection" was found in the M1A1 and 7.62x51 NATO.
I guess 6.8 spc is an option but no offense here. If your asking about relative recoil in these weapons your probably not in the market for a specialty round like the 6.8. Its been a few years but last I checked nobody could even find ammo for it. 6.8 is more of an advanced users load. While it takes no special skill there still is the $$ involved in upgrading and the extra ammo choice.
Buy the 5.56mm. If you want, later down the line, just buy the 6.8 upper and extra magazines. Getting the rifle, and getting competent with it, are job #1 right now. Its not like your going to be hunting deer with it anyways. That and 5.56mm ammo will be lots cheaper anyway.
-
do you have a link to it?
thanks,
opposum
Heres one I found online. I usually see them going for about that at my local shop.
http://www.centerfiresystems.com/AC-AKF-22.aspx
-
I have bought a few things off here....but it's been awhile.
http://www.auctionarms.com/
-
Ah jeeeesh. There will be a million suggestions, but only a few are worth really taking to heart. Mine is one of them. ;)
If you want an AR15, here are the questions you need to ask yourself:
1. What is the purpose of the rifle?
2. What is the budget.
As far as purpose goes, if you just want a shooter and dont "need" anything special, then simply look for a Colt, Bushmaster, or Rock River Arms. Those three are the tops for the civilian market hands down. There are other brands that are just fine, but nithing sticks out about them and they are are relatively new to the AR15 game (DPMS, Stag, S&W, etc), and the only brand I suggest you stay away from Olymipc. Just look for a basic AR15. My stock Colt AR15 and I used to nail prairie dogs all day long at 200 yards very consistantly (3in or less groups at 200 yards). You dont need a $2000 rifle to be accurate, you need a good trigger and optics. Dont worry about all the BS.
Right now, since Obama and his buddy Holder are made it clear thay *want* to reinstate the assinine "Assault Weapons Ban", the prices have just jumped from %10 to $50 depending on the model of evil rifle you're buying. You can still find a nice and accurate (and stock) AR15 rifle for less than $800 if you watch closely.
I've been around AR15's for the last 20 years and have put thousands of rounds down range at varmints, targets, and steel plates in competitions. I reload my own ammo and put 100 or so rounds down range a month on average (more in summer, less in winter). My own AR15 is a Colt MT7600 that has been put back into "natural" form. Since it was built during the AWB in 1999, it came without a flash hider, no bayonet lug, and it also had a HBAR (heavy barrel). I sent mine in after the ban and had threads put on for the flash hider and the barrel milled down to "government" specs. Now, my rifle is exactly like the M16"A4" that US Marines are carrying (minus the full auto/burst). Mine also has mounted on top an ACOG TA31 w/ "donut" reticle. It is a sweet rig and I am glad I'm the giver and not the receiver. Any baddie out to 300 yards is going to have to be well hidden from me in order to be safe. ;)
Feel free to PM me with any questions.
-
Hey opposum check out MIcroTech before you buy sweet. :D
http://www.msarinc.com
-
I guess 6.8 spc is an option but no offense here. If your asking about relative recoil in these weapons your probably not in the market for a specialty round like the 6.8. Its been a few years but last I checked nobody could even find ammo for it. 6.8 is more of an advanced users load. While it takes no special skill there still is the $$ involved in upgrading and the extra ammo choice.
Buy the 5.56mm. If you want, later down the line, just buy the 6.8 upper and extra magazines. Getting the rifle, and getting competent with it, are job #1 right now. Its not like your going to be hunting deer with it anyways. That and 5.56mm ammo will be lots cheaper anyway.
Actually the 6.8 is not considered a specialty round anymore. There is quite a following for it and ammunition is readily available. Granted, its not cheap like mil-surplus 5.56, but its easy to get and recoil is not much more than the 5.56 which in my opinion is negligble anyway. If you want to all there is to know on the 6.8, visit the following...
http://www.68forums.com/forums.php
There are some EXTREMELY knowledgable folks over there and quite a bit of independent development going on by people in the 6.8 community terms of chamber configurations, optimal barrel twist etc that even the mainstream mfgs aren't doing yet. I see this round replacing the 5.56 in the coming years.