Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Jager on March 04, 2009, 08:14:19 PM
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Was just curious about the weapons load on the Bf 109k-4 and found some interesting stuff. Apparently the Bf 109k-4 could of came with 2x2 cm Mauser MG 151/20 cannon gondola pods or 21 cm Wfr.Gr. 21 rockets (as on the Gustav models)1. What would be the chance off us getting these options on the Bf 109k-4? :aok
1 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Bf_109#cite_ref-96
Also goes on to say... all of the K-4s supplied to III./JG 26 were also equipped with 20mm-guns in the hated underwing tubs.2
2 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Bf_109#cite_ref-97
here is another site that says the same... http://www.adlertag.de/mainindex.htm
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Ummm...welll the short answer is the 109k4 as it is now is totally uber....flown correctly it owns almost every plane.
This bird is very unique in this game. It is very hard to learn but has the ability to out climb, out fly and sometimes out turn anything.
That is the beauty of it. One must put in some stick time and effort to take advantage of the "uberness".
Personally, I would love to see 20mm gun packages..but on the other hand I don't want such a beautifully designed plane to become another spit16.
I think the 109k4 is just fine like it is.
If aint broke dont fix it.
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German La7
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Ummm...welll the short answer is the 109k4 as it is now is totally uber....flown correctly it owns almost every plane.
This bird is very unique in this game. It is very hard to learn but has the ability to out climb, out fly and sometimes out turn anything.
That is the beauty of it. One must put in some stick time and effort to take advantage of the "uberness".
Personally, I would love to see 20mm gun packages..but on the other hand I don't want such a beautifully designed plane to become another spit16.
I think the 109k4 is just fine like it is.
If aint broke dont fix it.
I think the Ki 84 is its only real match if flown correctly, ki has a climbrate which is just a total suprise sometimes
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Ummm...welll the short answer is the 109k4 as it is now is totally uber....flown correctly it owns almost every plane.
This bird is very unique in this game. It is very hard to learn but has the ability to out climb, out fly and sometimes out turn anything.
That is the beauty of it. One must put in some stick time and effort to take advantage of the "uberness".
Personally, I would love to see 20mm gun packages..but on the other hand I don't want such a beautifully designed plane to become another spit16.
I think the 109k4 is just fine like it is.
If aint broke dont fix it.
I like the way it is, not saying to change the characteristics but, would like the gun package as i orginally asked :)
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Never flown in combat with gondolas, they were removed at the depot/staging level before being given to pilots.
That's what the experts reported back when the 109 line was upgraded graphically-speaking.
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I think the Ki 84 is its only real match if flown correctly, ki has a climbrate which is just a total suprise sometimes
not my K4 :devil
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the k-4 is actually a lil easy mode....for stall fighters...for the avg joe though, its tough to fly and even harder to land kills in. :aok
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I am kinda torn either way.
I know that if I had a 20mm hub cannon I would get wayyyy more kils. But on the other hand half of the mystique and challenge of flying the k4 is the gun package. That one reason is why most people give it up as a regular ride.
30mm are just wonderful snap shot rounds. Nothing beats it. The down side and what I like about it is its very hard to construct gun solutions. It requires the pilot to fly much differently as compared to normal turny planes.
I am with you on the guns as far as "funness" (not a real word).
I have a suspicion that if the k4 had 20mm guns it would be like the la7, spit16. 4-hog, or typh.
The k4 is the best kept secret of the game :D
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30mm are just wonderful snap shot rounds. Nothing beats it.
pfffft i got 4 hispano, 4 browning, two merlins and a huge f-off windscreen that disagree with you.
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I know that if I had a 20mm hub cannon I would get wayyyy more kils.
[...]
I have a suspicion that if the k4 had 20mm guns it would be like the la7, spit16. 4-hog, or typh.
Fly the G-14 with only a 20mm hub gun. It'll fly 99% the same as the K-4 (and even outclimb/accelerate the K-4 at 5000ft by a little bit) up to about 15k, then the G-14 drops off and the K-4 keeps going. Below this point they are VERY similar planes. One reason I like having the G14 is because when you want a K4 (for MA purposes) with 20mm guns or gondies, just take the G14s and your wish is granted.
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I don't like them :mad:
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Oh, P.S. the Ki-84's climb rate is nothing compared to the 109s' climb rates.
Ki-84 barely touches 4000fpm at 5k and drops sharply after that. 109K-4 and G-14 almost touch 5000fpm up to 5k alt, and above that gradually drop off.
Plus the Ki has a huuuuuuge mid-alt power drop that I dislike. Puts it at a disadvantage when fighting planes higher up.
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I wouldnt mind 20's on a K-4 but yea.Thats a pretty much a G 14
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I hear you dude. BUT the g14 aint no k4.
It is the speed that matters first. And second is the engine POWER. Power is not defined by climb or acceleration in this plane. It is defined by the pure beastly power that allows the plane to stall, torque roll, float and maneuver with only throttle. This plane is all about speed....fast but especially slow and the ability to go between these extremes at will.
The g14 is very similar. But only in that it is the next fastest in the 109 series.
A 20mm k4 and a 20mm g14 are totally differnet animals
Fly the G-14 with only a 20mm hub gun. It'll fly 99% the same as the K-4 (and even outclimb/accelerate the K-4 at 5000ft by a little bit) up to about 15k, then the G-14 drops off and the K-4 keeps going. Below this point they are VERY similar planes. One reason I like having the G14 is because when you want a K4 (for MA purposes) with 20mm guns or gondies, just take the G14s and your wish is granted.
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not my K4 :devil
:t :t :t
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the k-4 is actually a lil easy mode....for stall fighters..
says the uber flap hog dweeb
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(http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/29/105515001zi0.jpg)
wrongway
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In Messerschmitt Bf 109 F, G & K Series, by Prien and Rodeike, the chapter on the K-4 mentions that some were delivered with an MG 151/20 hub cannon.
Wrongway, wikipedia articles are as accurate as their citations. Good citations make for good articles, and the 109 article seems to set a high standard. Check out the talk page and you can see the other users lay the smack down on "kurtfurst."
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Oh, P.S. the Ki-84's climb rate is nothing compared to the 109s' climb rates.
Ki-84 barely touches 4000fpm at 5k and drops sharply after that. 109K-4 and G-14 almost touch 5000fpm up to 5k alt, and above that gradually drop off.
Plus the Ki has a huuuuuuge mid-alt power drop that I dislike. Puts it at a disadvantage when fighting planes higher up.
i got a video that shows Ki climb in a 1v1 vs a K4 but Im not sure how to post it can i email you it and post it to show what im trying to talk about, I dont know if its inaccruately built but the ki climbs with k4s in 1v1s below 10k, send me pm if you can post this for me :salute
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A well flown k4 can be a problem but telling a noob to try one is setting him up for failure. :eek:
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A well flown k4 can be a problem but telling a noob to try one is setting him up for failure. :eek:
Unless he BNZ in it then he setting him self up for a dramatic downfall, he would probably be awesome in it for about 2 weeks then suddenly hes trying to aviod people doing the same thing to him and hes getting waxed left and right
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says the uber flap hog dweeb, that owns in K-4's and american iron as well!
yes.......if that's ok with you.....I will answer yes to the question, "do you say that?".
:noid
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Love this bird as she is..... a dirty dirty ruthless killer :aok
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I learned that everyone loves a spud :rock
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But on the other hand half of the mystique and challenge of flying the k4 is the gun package. That one reason is why most people give it up as a regular ride.
QFT. The gun package is the beauty of this plane and is what keeps it from becoming just another overused pick machine like the Spit16 and N1K - well that and to a lesser degree the less than average views that most new comers to the 109 don't like compared to the Pony, the Spits, N1K, and LaLa. It is perfect the way it is, I admit it would be fun to have the other gun package but I'm afraid it would ruin the reputation of the plane in game and just add another new dimension of horde/pick torture to the game.
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pfffft i got 4 hispano, 4 browning, two merlins and a huge f-off windscreen that disagree with you.
I loled, don't forget they are all centre mounted for additional LAZERZ BEAMZ effect!
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Jager nice info sir love that beast of a plane just not that much ammo me not so good with the aim.
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In Messerschmitt Bf 109 F, G & K Series, by Prien and Rodeike, the chapter on the K-4 mentions that some were delivered with an MG 151/20 hub cannon.
Wrongway, wikipedia articles are as accurate as their citations. Good citations make for good articles, and the 109 article seems to set a high standard. Check out the talk page and you can see the other users lay the smack down on "kurtfurst."
Wiki is a good place to start but I don't know about putting much stock in much of it without more research. Primary source, don't think so.
Besides, it's a nice picture.
wrongway
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<-- Finds himself taking up a G14 with a 30mm rather than a K4, lately.
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Wiki is a good place to start but I don't know about putting much stock in much of it without more research. Primary source, don't think so.
Well, when I read a Wiki article about anything I want to take seriously, I check the citations. You're right that they're not often going to be primary sources, but seeing the claims backed up by good secondary sources puts the article in a different category than one where the citations are from "some dude's website." ;) In some cases, I have looked at their citation and found that it's a book that I own. I look at the book, and the wiki article almost repeats the book verbatim! Again, looking at the talk page and the history of edits and wrist-slapping that's gone on over the 109 article, it seems to be of good quality. For instance, most websites you look up for the 109K-4 will say it had two 15mm cannons in the cowl and the option of the MK 103, which we know is silly.
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QFT. The gun package is the beauty of this plane and is what keeps it from becoming just another overused pick machine like the Spit16 and N1K - well that and to a lesser degree the less than average views that most new comers to the 109 don't like compared to the Pony, the Spits, N1K, and LaLa. It is perfect the way it is, I admit it would be fun to have the other gun package but I'm afraid it would ruin the reputation of the plane in game and just add another new dimension of horde/pick torture to the game.
The reputation of the 109K-4 in the game is irrelevant. If some 109K-4's had the MG 151/20 in the hub, it should be in the game. If it proves to be too much that option could be a separate perked aircraft.
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<-- Finds himself taking up a G14 with a 30mm rather than a K4, lately.
step off g14 is my ride :lol
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I might play around with that G14 in 4 years or so when I've mastered this ki-84.
Santa knows I can't hit anything with taters. He watches, all the time.
That makes me wonder, who has the best SA.. God or Santa?
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I learned that everyone loves a spud :rock
dude! check your PMs (from about 2 years ago)
S! creton
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I might play around with that G14 in 4 years or so when I've mastered this ki-84.
Santa knows I can't hit anything with taters. He watches, all the time.
That makes me wonder, who has the best SA.. God or Santa?
:rofl
An Aces High Christmas Story
Now... remember son...
You bet-ter not vulch,
You bet-ter not whine,
You bet-ter not pick,
Im tell-ing you why,
San-ta Claus has su-perb... S-A!
He sees you when you're hord-ing,
He knows when you're an ace,
He knows if you've been tool-shed-ing,
So be good for goodness sake!
Ohhhhhhhhh!
You bet-ter not vulch,
You bet-ter not whine,
You bet-ter not pick,
Im tell-ing you why,
San-ta Claus has su-perb... S-A!
:D
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<-- Finds himself taking up a G14 with a 30mm rather than a K4, lately.
Thats what ive been doing for the past several tours.
This tour though im all G6 for a change of pace.
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38s could carry 22 inch torps too.... not much chance :)
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good one, Mazz :)
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Hmm, I kinda like running into K4's co alt in the old 38G. It's the ones above me that I don't like as much :)
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Well, when I read a Wiki article about anything I want to take seriously, I check the citations. You're right that they're not often going to be primary sources, but seeing the claims backed up by good secondary sources puts the article in a different category than one where the citations are from "some dude's website." ;) In some cases, I have looked at their citation and found that it's a book that I own. I look at the book, and the wiki article almost repeats the book verbatim! Again, looking at the talk page and the history of edits and wrist-slapping that's gone on over the 109 article, it seems to be of good quality. For instance, most websites you look up for the 109K-4 will say it had two 15mm cannons in the cowl and the option of the MK 103, which we know is silly.
----------------The reputation of the 109K-4 in the game is irrelevant. If some 109K-4's had the MG 151/20 in the hub, it should be in the game. If it proves to be too much that option could be a separate perked aircraft.
Thanks for your input bud :aok...I just got done working 25 hours and I'm astonished at the ammount of replies!! :O I gotta be back at 1100 so I can't do anymore research of my own until tomorrow night. So do you think we might have a chance? :D
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I Fly the P-39. :rock
People talkin' about ubber rides. :rofl
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I Fly the P-39. :rock
People talkin' about ubber rides. :rofl
Oddly enough my best FSO night was in the p-39.....go figure. :rolleyes:
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Hmm, I kinda like running into K4's co alt in the old 38G. It's the ones above me that I don't like as much :)
Del and i had a fun series of these it was a good time for sure.
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An Aces High Christmas Story
:rofl
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Gotta like a plane that forces you to fight well (or crash and burn)..
I don't do the K4 often.. But when I do, it's only those shots that I could probably reach out and touch the other guy's ride that I take.... :rock
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I've seen a lot of K-4 pilots lately who are fixated on forcing the overshoot, as if it's the only available tactic. I simply chop the throttle and do a hard slip, and they're hanging in my gunsight. :t Fighting against poor opposition can induce bad habits, it seems. :lol
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Geussing or even knowing when you are merging for a serious fight or a boring chase at the right time is a very usefull perception to have. Very easy to get wrong also, for anyone, unless you can actualy read minds over the interent.
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Geussing or even knowing when you are merging for a serious fight or a boring chase at the right time is a very usefull perception to have. Very easy to get wrong also, for anyone, unless you can actualy read minds over the interent.
Do you know how many times I've died because I expect my opponent to do the same old thing? :P :lol
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not the exact figure but im sure its close to the amount the rest of us do it.
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I've seen a lot of K-4 pilots lately who are fixated on forcing the overshoot, as if it's the only available tactic. I simply chop the throttle and do a hard slip, and they're hanging in my gunsight. :t Fighting against poor opposition can induce bad habits, it seems. :lol
Im guilty of this. 99% of the time, forcing an overshoot is the quickest way to thin the horde.
Problem is; that 1% of the time when you run into someone who understands that the throttle has a setting other than "100%," youre pretty done.
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I've seen a lot of K-4 pilots lately who are fixated on forcing the overshoot, as if it's the only available tactic. I simply chop the throttle and do a hard slip, and they're hanging in my gunsight. :t Fighting against poor opposition can induce bad habits, it seems. :lol
This exactly what I do most of the time regardless of the plane or who is flying it. To me its much more fun.
And it brings the fight to a critical point much faster than flying around in circles trying to get an alt adv.....= boring.
chopping and side slipping won't work for you if the k4 takes you completly verticle.... :O
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Most of the time in the MA you have to fly defensively just to get a fight. Overshoots are an essential part of your tool box.
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This exactly what I do most of the time regardless of the plane or who is flying it. To me its much more fun.
And it brings the fight to a critical point much faster than flying around in circles trying to get an alt adv.....= boring.
chopping and side slipping won't work for you if the k4 takes you completly verticle.... :O
yup you end up with a k4 on top of you, usually followed by an incoming tater.
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Most of the time in the MA you have to fly defensively just to get a fight. Overshoots are an essential part of your tool box.
One of the reasons for trolling in a 38G low. They gotta come down then :)
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Or fly a plane that's considered easy meat: When I've flown the 39 I had no shortage of opponents.
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Most of the time in the MA you have to fly defensively just to get a fight.
Truth.
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I hate well flown K-4s...scotch and m00t come to mind.....filthy devils make those beasts do evil things :furious
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K4 is for, quote unquote, turn pilots that can't turn cause they like the extra E.
Stop flying a weak plane, get some ASM and you'll never wish for anything on the K4 again.
Yeah, that sums it up......... :salute
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Uh, what? :huh
"AmazinHunk Becinhu (official oilman)"
:rofl
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Sorry sir, I didn't realize you were saying the same thing........ Only weak sticks fly the K4....
I hate well flown K-4s...scotch and m00t come to mind.....filthy devils make those beasts do evil things :furious
Kinda like the aforementioned......... :D
Although I never see m00t in one of those toys...... :rock
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K4 is for, quote unquote, turn pilots that can't turn cause they like the extra E.
Stop flying a weak plane, get some ASM and you'll never wish for anything on the K4 again.
Yeah, that sums it up......... :salute
:noid
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haha
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(http://www.candidz.com/forum/images/smilies/import/peace.gif)
haha
...I've seen you fly that..... You at least take it out of auto-pilot.... <SALUTE>
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Well now that we have proof, what should we do next? :) :O :)
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Well now that we have proof, what should we do next? :) :O :)
Don't think that every plane gets its more rare armament just because it has a precedent in history: that privilege only belongs to the La-7 and Il-2. :noid
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:cry lol
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Sorry sir, I didn't realize you were saying the same thing........ Only weak sticks fly the K4....
Kinda like the aforementioned......... :D
Although I never see m00t in one of those toys...... :rock
weak sticks aye, Ill take my K4 against any of your planes you fly. Ill give you 5k alt and i will be at gear down speed when we say go. K4 is best plane in the game, Fast as crap almost reaching pony speeds, climbs better then 38s, and can outfly hogs if flown right, only problem is its got pretty bad views and the tator can be sometimes tough especially if you ar having off day. K4 owns all american planes and every other plane except maybe Ki-84 which i think may be better im still not sure
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weak sticks aye, Ill take my K4 against any of your planes you fly. Ill give you 5k alt and i will be at gear down speed when we say go.
'Your' k4 vs my SBD. Those conditions.
You in? Me being such a weak stick.
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'Your' k4 vs my SBD. Those conditions.
You in? Me being such a weak stick.
thats right its my K4, I OWN MUPPETS DAILY, THEY TASTY, :rock lol
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So is that a no?
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its a maybe in a month when i come back from a mission to take out that missle in north korea they are launching :t
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Yeah, that's what I thought.
Haha
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Yeah, that's what I thought.
Haha
Muppets arent suppose to think, just DIE
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Maybe I'm missing something here, are you trying to be funny Junky?
Or are you just daft?
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Maybe I'm missing something here, are you trying to be funny Junky?
Or are you just daft?
logan said something about people who fly 109s are weak sticks, which i firmly disagree, then Scotch says something about him in SBD so i think hes trying to be funny then yep its MY K4 :rock
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Maybe I'm missing something here, are you trying to be funny Junky?
Or are you just daft?
funny , daft , stupid he is all of these things, plus a warper on demand. :P
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K4 is for, quote unquote, turn pilots that can't turn cause they like the extra E.
Stop flying a weak plane, get some ASM and you'll never wish for anything on the K4 again.
So much fail in this post.
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Well now that we have proof, what should we do next? :) :O :)
Jager,I've looked into this b4,it appears that several,maybe 5 or 6 were built with 20 mm hub guns and this was only because of a shortage of Mk108's.That said all K4 came with mountings for the 20 mm gondolas and yes JG26 were disappointed to see their new K's come in with the 20's under wing.Most if not all these planes had the gondolas removed as the unit prefered the agility of the plane W/O the gunpods over the extra firepower.
Whether or not the gondolas were ever used in combat seems difficult to find out,that said the plane was built to carry them.
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Just had some good fights vs Agent360 and Fester who were in K4s. The old 38G did ok, but it can't fight in the vert like the K4. I held off a rusty Fester for about five minutes as he was trying to work me upstairs, before he tatered my 38. Agent really knows how to turn that thing down low too. We had some knock down drag out, stick bending, stall horn blaring, fights tonight. It was great fun :)
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funny , daft , stupid he is all of these things, plus a warper on demand. :P
You rat me out and ill tell them about how I told you how to do it :devil