Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: funked on June 08, 2000, 05:14:00 PM
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This is the Army Type 4 Assault Plane.
(http://www.raf303.org/funked/Ki-102b.jpg)
Twin-engine two-seat ground attack aircraft.
In production October 1944, 215 built plus 25 pre-production and prototype aircraft. Saw combat at Okinawa but was intended for defense of the home islands.
Armament: One 57mm Ho-401 cannon in nose, two 20mm Ho-5 cannon in belly, and one flexible 12.7mm Ho-103 machine gun for the radio operator.
External Stores: Two 200 l drop tanks or two 250 kg bombs.
Performance: 360mph at 19,685 ft, climb to 16,405ft in 6m 54s.
Wingloading 44 lb/ft^2
Powerloading 5.4 lb/hp.
Seems to me like a plane of high performance considering the heavy armament. Would be an excellent choice for a late-war Japanese fighter-bomber. Much more capable than the Ki-45 as a ground attack and tank buster, and probably no less effective vs. aircraft.
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 06-08-2000).]
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This is kind of redundent but the Ki 102 can't do anything the Me 410 can't.
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Hey you smartass. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
It's Japanese! We were talking on other threads about how to give each country a full plane set. This one fills a gap.
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I checked Gustin's site and found out that the 57mm gun had a 15 round clip. I don't know what the ammo capacity was for the Ho-5. I wonder if it used the same ammo containers as the installation on the Ki-84? Also I can't find a photo showing where the bombs or drop tanks were attached.
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Here you go funky (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
(http://www.concentric.net/~amagai/pics/ki102b.jpg)
No. 9 prototype, 57mm not installed.
By the way, I have 16 rounds in a drum magazine for the 57mm. 900kg gun weight, ROF 50/min. The Ho-5 magazine is a large affair across the fuselage, 200 rounds per gun. Ordnance 50kgx4 or 100kgx4 or 250kgx2 or 500kgx1 or 800kgx1
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Thanks Manx!
I'm having trouble seeing the detail under the plane though. Looks like a pair of bomb shackles on the fuselage just aft of the 20mm cannon muzzle ports.
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 06-09-2000).]
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Yeah, it's not too clear in the original either, but I think you are correct.
However, those aren't really "muzzle ports" as such. The Ho-5s are mounted way to the rear. Check this out (sorry it's a bit big guys):
(http://www.concentric.net/~amagai/pics/ki102line.gif)
The big rectangular box above and between the Ho-5s is the 20mm magazine. Would it act as armor or an explosive?
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Both - depending on what hit it! The magazine would have been armoured, I would guess.
I think having the option of taking either the 57mm(Ki-102b) or the 37mm(Ki-102a) cannon as a loadout would be nice. Anyone know which type of 37mm it was though?
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Wow Manx, thanks.
Juzz, the Ki-102a had different engines (turbosupercharged) so I don't think it would be so easy. I'm sure our marksmen would find good use for the Ho-401. Would be a hell of an anti-shipping weapon too!
PS Manx, 900 kg is a hell of a lot for a 57mm gun. 150kg is the weight listed here: http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/8217/fgun/fgun-pe.html (http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/8217/fgun/fgun-pe.html)
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 06-09-2000).]
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Yeah, now I apply common sense to it, 900kg sounds a bit excessive (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I'll look thing over when I get home. I'll scan in a picture of it too.
[added]
Ok, here's the 57mm
(http://www.concentric.net/~amagai/pics/ho401.jpg)
Even though my source document does mention 900kg, the mounting brackets don't look like they can support that? I don't know. I don't have any other source for the Ho-401, I'm afraid (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) As far as I know, it's a modification of the Type 88 infantry cannon.
As for the Ki102a, the 37mm was Ho204, which is a copy (modified) of the Browning 37mm. ROF=400/min, 35 rounds.
[This message has been edited by Manx (edited 06-09-2000).]
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Beautiful. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Checked my Francillon on the Ho-401
57mm Ho-401 Cannon
Installed, among others, on the Kawasaki Ki-102b Heavy Fighter, this type of cannon was still under development at wars end. Weight 353 lbs, rate of fire 90 rpm, muzzle velocity 1,700 ft per sec.
and then on the 37mm Ho-203 Cannon
37mm Ho-203 Cannon
This recoil-operated cannon was fed from a 25-round magazine (drum type) and was installed on several types of Kawasaki heavy fighters. Overall length 60.3 inches, weight 196 lbs, rate of fire 120 rpm, muzzle veloctiy 1,890 ft/sec, effective range 900m.
There is an excellent picture of the Ho203 taken by the US Navy Department, but I don't have a scanner here at home.
Hey Funked, wouldn't it be great to get a couple of heavy fighters in the next version? Say the Me410, the Beaufighter, and this bird? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Hmmmm... Maybe its time for another bribe to HTC (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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Hey Manx, which other Japanese aircraft have you got details like that for?
Mmmmmm, Beaufighter, Australian Mk 21 please! (4x.50in instead of 6x.303in (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif))
[This message has been edited by juzz (edited 06-10-2000).]
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Do I make you randy?
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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations
Most plans are just inaccurate predictions.
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juzz,
Well, I do have probably an above average collection of Japanese plane books, most of which are in Japanese. The line drawing came from this book:
Illustrated Warplane History vol:6, Imperial Japanese Army Warplane. Published by Green Arrow. 244 pages, many many line drawings, some pictures, covering almost all Army planes. (ISBN4-7663-3209-1)
The pictures came from:
Famous Airplanes of the World. Published by Bunrindo. No.24, Army Experimental Fighters. 62 pages of pictures 30 pages of text. (ISBN4-89319-021-0)
Not really primary literatures, but good as general reference by hobbyists.
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Nath, your right in that the 410 could do anything this bird could do, and actually more. The Me410 was faster by around 30 mph if I remember right, and could carry quite a few more armament options.
But I do have to say that the Ki102 is a much prettier aircraft that the Me410. Cleaner lines, and it is much more attractive overall in my opinon.
Anyone got performance specs on the Ki102a?? Everything I can find and you guys have posted have been for the "b" model.
I read in the posts above and in Francillons book that the "a" variant had turbosupercharged engines which could make it a very potent aircraft at high altitudes, just like the P-38 and P-47.
I'm curious.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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Well there are plenty of Japanese fighters that were better than the Ki-102a. But as a ground attacker I think it is the best thing the Japanese fielded.
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Kinda reminds me of the XA-38 Grizzly (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
- Jig
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If you want to do the heavy Armament thing do it right.
(http://www.wpafb.af.mil/cgi-bin/quiz.pl/research/bombers/b25h-3.jpg)
B-25H-5/10
Eight .50's in the nose and a 75mm cannon plus all the nice little turrets. Excellent for people who like flying the bombers like a really big fighter, but still like to bomb. The 75mm cannon with 21 rounds would however, wreak hell with AH airbases.
(http://www.wpafb.af.mil/cgi-bin/quiz.pl/research/bombers/b25h-4.jpg)
(http://www.wpafb.af.mil/cgi-bin/quiz.pl/research/bombers/b25h-5.jpg)
There is also the P-47 and Bf.110G, I wouldn't want either one of those suckers crawling up my arse if I was in a Buff. Bf.110G x2 30mm's x4 20mm's, can we say Buff Hunt (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Originally posted by Pyro:
Do I make you randy?
"Margaret Thatcher naked on a cold day! Margaret Thatcher naked on a cold day!"
Austin Powers
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Lets stick with the "randy", lets not give the ack-wagon fans a new ride ;P
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Make me Randy Pyro!
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It's nice twin engines plane...because another twin engines plane "Kawasaki Ki-45 Nick" is not good plane. select it Pyro... :)
[ 07-09-2001: Message edited by: Mitsu ]
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God I love this plane:
(http://content.communities.msn.com/isapi/fetch.dll?action=MyPhotos_GetPubPhoto&photoId=nHwCwcLUIL2v4kQ9Qqx6mBhwjailrp12E7z4BxliazVZeACNQ1w3LfRVU3UpZBa0M)
(http://content.communities.msn.com/isapi/fetch.dll?action=MyPhotos_GetPubPhoto&photoId=nHwD6d60JNIFs2mHfM9ggHF4xY6Gy1uBBOIL0vAzWuZ4VQ!pBhaoFjvmZM4qCFICQ)
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If the B29 is introduced lets hope we get this plane with it!!
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ya:)
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PLEASE Pyro. Make me one.
The ultimate HO machine...
(to HO Flaktanks that is mwhahahahah) :D
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Ya that Cannon would be fun to fire:)
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I think Ki-109 is easier to model than Ki-102 (if pyro doesn't have enough info about randy...um).
It has more bigger cannon.
Ho-501 (Type 88)
Ammunition: 75mm / 6,540g (8,700g)
Weight: 450kg
Rate of Fire: 20rpm
Muzzle velocity: 720m/s
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Kawasaki Ki-102-Otsu Assault Fighter
(http://www.ah.wakwak.com/~mitsu/battoutai/images/ki102/ki102.jpg)
Span 15.57m
Length 11.45m
Height 3.70m
Wing Area 34.00sqm
Basic Weight 4950kg
Gross Weight 7300kg
Crew 2
HA-112-II 1500hp x2
Fuel 1630LTR
Max Speed 580km/h/6,000m
Climb Time 5000m/6'54"
Ceiling Alt 10000m
Range 2000km
Armament Ho-401 57mm x1, Ho-5 20mm x2, Ho-103 12.7mm x1 (rear), 50kg x4 or 100kg x4 or 250kg x2 or 500kg x1 bombs.
215 built.
Mitsubishi Ki-109
(http://www.ah.wakwak.com/~mitsu/battoutai/images/ki109/ki109.jpg)
Span 22.50m
Length 12.950m
Height 5.80m
Wing Area 65.85sqm
Basic Weight 7424kg
Gross Weight 10800kg
Crew 4
HA-104 1900hp x2
Fuel 2152LTR
Max Speed 550km/h/6,090m
Range 2200km
Armament Type 88 75mm x1 (15 rds), Ho-103 12.7mm x1 (rear)
22 built.
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Kawasaki Ki-102-Ko High Altitude Fighter
(http://www.ah.wakwak.com/~mitsu/battoutai/images/ki102/ki102ko.jpg)
Span 15.57m
Length 11.45m
Height 3.70m
Wing Area 34.00sqm
Basic Weight 5150kg
Gross Weight 7150kg
Crew 2
HA-112-II-Ru 1500hp x2
Fuel 1630LTR
Max Speed 580km/h/10000m
Climb Time 10000m/18'00"
Ceiling Alt 12000m
Range 2000km
Armament Ho-204 37mm x1 (35rds), Ho-5 20mm x2, Ho-103 12.7mm x1 (rear), 50kg x4 bombs.
15 built.
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Originally posted by funked
This is the Army Type 4 Assault Plane.
(http://www.raf303.org/funked/Ki-102b.jpg)
Twin-engine two-seat ground attack aircraft.
Armament: One 57mm Ho-401 cannon in nose
Be interesting to see this thing handle w/ low fuel/low speed, with that 57MM on the nose. Either way, the recoil's gotta feel like it could stop that ride on a dime
CV landings, anyone? :eek:
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She Was reported to be a very manuaverable plane.
Mitsu, I beleave She had Two 20mm Ho-5 cannons.
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From my Francillon:
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Can U say " Big Bore":)
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Originally posted by brady
She Was reported to be a very manuaverable plane.
Mitsu, I beleave She had Two 20mm Ho-5 cannons.
cc that was typo.
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A 10 year bump.
I think this would be a very cool addition to our planeset. The Japanese could use a twin engined attack aircraft :cheers:
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Not your smartest idea.
Don't they give a warning when you're about to bump a really old thread? :headscratch:
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Not your smartest idea.
Don't they give a warning when you're about to bump a really old thread? :headscratch:
Smelly children should be bathed. :old:
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Smelly children should be bathed. :old:
<Slap> Bone. That's a terrible and cowardly thing to say. How dare you? :old:
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I would like to see the Ki-102 added. There is a place for it on my spreadsheet. It is also one of those aircraft that might see moderate use in the LWA.
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Thanks HighTone, the thread WILL probably get locked because you stated "A 10 year bump" (though it will probably be locked regardless). :bhead But let's see if we can keep it going. :aok
What are it's benefits and draw backs vs the B-25H, Mossy 6, Bf-110 and the Me-410? Another question is, which "should" come first? The Ki-45 or Ki-102b?
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Not sure why it would get locked when it's obvious that the board's broken search feature is partially responsible.
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Thanks HighTone, the thread WILL probably get locked because you stated "A 10 year bump" (though it will probably be locked regardless). :bhead But let's see if we can keep it going. :aok
What are it's benefits and draw backs vs the B-25H, Mossy 6, Bf-110 and the Me-410? Another question is, which "should" come first? The Ki-45 or Ki-102b?
Primary benefit is that it is Japanese for players that like flying Japanese aircraft. Compared to the Mossie VI and Bf110G-2 it would have a bigger gun, though less bombs. Compared to the B-25H it would have much better performance, probably about like the Bf110G-2 with better turning and climbing abilities.
Ki-45 should come first if your criteria is historical significance and scenario use.
Ki-102 should come first if your criteria is LWMA usefulness and viability.
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I say we add them both. That's my criteria. :D I would think the Ki-45 would be a priority add over the Ki-102b due to it having more use in FSO/Scenario's. Could the Ki-102b be used as a sub for anything in any theater for FSO/Scenario? Like how we use the G4M1 as a sub for the He-111 in a BoB setup. :headscratch:
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I say we add them both. That's my criteria. :D I would think the Ki-45 would be a priority add over the Ki-102b due to it having more use in FSO/Scenario's. Could the Ki-102b be used as a sub for anything in any theater for FSO/Scenario? Like how we use the G4M1 as a sub for the He-111 in a BoB setup. :headscratch:
I can't think of anything it would be an appropriate substitution for. With the 57mm cannon I guess kinda the Mosquito Mk XVIII or Me410 with the BK50. The Me410 is about to not need a sub and the Mossie sub wouldn't be a great one due to the performance differences between the only superficial similarity between them, their 57mm cannons.
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Well that limits it to Okinawa then. Isn't the Mossy's cannon a much better gun and carries more ammo than the 102's? If this is the case, it probably wouldn't be used as a sub for the Mossy. I am curious to what role it would fill in the MA's. :headscratch: I can see the 57mm being used in a deack role, and maybe as a gv hunter. Would it's performance be reasonable enough for it to hunt bombers? It's slated to be a ground attack, so I don't think so but it'll probably be used in this role by a few folks. :) Would it get used more than the 410 or would you guess their usage to be about the same? In any event, it would be awesome to up a flight of these and use them on a V-Base. :x
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Maximum speed is very similar to the Bf110G-2's, though I don't know what its critical altitudes are. Its engines are a bit more powerful than the Bf110G-2's, so it may be a bit faster on the deck.
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It's a little lighter than the 110, according to wiki (I know), but it's probably a bit tougher than the 110(?). I'm curious to what it's ammo load was... I'm have crap luck trying to find it on the net. Another thing is, were all the rounds HE?
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It's a little lighter than the 110, according to wiki (I know), but it's probably a bit tougher than the 110(?). I'm curious to what it's ammo load was... I'm have crap luck trying to find it on the net. Another thing is, were all the rounds HE?
Don't know, but the muzzle velocity on the 57mm was underwhelming when I looked it up. IIRC it had 15 or 16 rounds for the 57mm. Earlier in this thread somebody said 200 rounds for each of the two Ho-5 20mms.
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15 built is going to be hard to argue why it should be added in game, unless we allow wonder weapons.
Ki-45 has a good chance, Ki-102 not so much
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15 built is going to be hard to argue why it should be added in game, unless we allow wonder weapons.
15 of that one model.
IIRC, 215 Ki-102s were built, which would put it right in line with the C.205 or F4U-1C and about as many as the Ta152, Ostwind and Wirbelwind combined.
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15 of that one model.
IIRC, 215 Ki-102s were built.
How many squadrons did it fill out? as I pointed out in the Ki-84 Otsu thread, Japan had no problem producing airframes, however engines were a different story.
They could of had 214 empty frames.
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I have never seen any (post war) production statistics counting empty frames as "planes built". A frame without engine has not been completed.
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How many squadrons did it fill out? as I pointed out in the Ki-84 Otsu thread, Japan had no problem producing airframes, however engines were a different story.
They could of had 214 empty frames.
I'd have to do more research. It fought at Okinawa but the Japanese considered it a useful type and retained most of them in Japan for defense against the expected invasion of the home islands.
So far as I know all the Ki-102s were functional. It didn't use the Nakajima Homare engine like the Ki-84, so engine shortages might not have affected it. Looks like it used the Mitsubishi Ha-112 engine, which was also used by the Ki-100. If they had the engines available to re-engine the engineless Ki-61-II airframes with it they likely had the engines for the Ki-102.
Incidentally, Wikipedia says 238 were built.
EDIT:
All the photos I can find, even the pile of them after the war, are all engined. It is a pretty attractive looking airplane actually.
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I'd have to do more research. It fought at Okinawa but the Japanese considered it a useful type and retained most of them in Japan for defense against the expected invasion of the home islands.
So far as I know all the Ki-102s were functional. It didn't use the Nakajima Homare engine like the Ki-84, so engine shortages might not have affected it. Looks like it used the Mitsubishi Ha-112 engine, which was also used by the Ki-100. If they had the engines available to re-engine the engineless Ki-61-II airframes with it they likely had the engines for the Ki-102.
Incidentally, Wikipedia says 238 were built.
EDIT:
All the photos I can find, even the pile of them after the war, are all engined. It is a pretty attractive looking airplane actually.
I will see what I can drum up then, thanks for the info hopefully I can find something useful like squadron service or such, Japan aircraft/tanks though are extremely tough to find any information on sadly, I had hell trying to find Ki-84 Otsu material.
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I will see what I can drum up then, thanks for the info hopefully I can find something useful like squadron service or such, Japan aircraft/tanks though are extremely tough to find any information on sadly, I had hell trying to find Ki-84 Otsu material.
Sadly, the Japanese destroyed tons of records when they surrendered to keep them from falling into our hands. It makes researching the late war Japanese stuff an awful lot harder than it ought to have been given the records they actually kept.
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Not your smartest idea.
Don't they give a warning when you're about to bump a really old thread? :headscratch:
I used the search function to find out what threads or info I could find that was posted here about the Ki-102.
I posted to this one because I though that Mitsu had posted some good info in it.
Its not quite like theres a ton of post about it.
Chill out bud, if this ruins your day then you need medication.
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It may fall on Busa and Mitsu to find the information for us, as they are in a much better position to get it for us. :aok Unless you've all become very good in reading and speaking Japanese. :) I would like to see more detailed information about this aircraft. :aok
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+1 on this plane. :aok
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It may fall on Busa and Mitsu to find the information for us, as they are in a much better position to get it for us. :aok Unless you've all become very good in reading and speaking Japanese. :) I would like to see more detailed information about this aircraft. :aok
Yep most my documents are in Japan, which is a troublesome language to learn, I usually can translate polish or german without any problems.
It falls on our Japanese brothers to bring us the info! :)
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Ki-45
+1 add that too.
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in 12 years nobody has bothered to post a pic or 2?
(http://www.aviastar.org/pictures/japan/kawasaki_ki-102-s.gif)
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I used the search function to find out what threads or info I could find that was posted here about the Ki-102.
I posted to this one because I though that Mitsu had posted some good info in it.
Its not quite like theres a ton of post about it.
Chill out bud, if this ruins your day then you need medication.
Perhaps it's because Skuzzy insta locks practically every thread that's been bump that is at least a couple months old?
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Perhaps it's because Skuzzy insta locks practically every thread that's been bump that is at least a couple months old?
well this one is a ac wish and is still valid as long as the ac is not in game. why make a new thread when search feature turrn up what you are looking for?
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Wow, even I got in on this one back in the day... I even was thinking about the Superfort!
If the B29 is introduced lets hope we get this plane with it!!
Bring on the Randy!
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in 12 years nobody has bothered to post a pic or 2?
(http://i718.photobucket.com/albums/ww189/sasforever99030507/Ki-102-12.jpg)
(http://i718.photobucket.com/albums/ww189/sasforever99030507/Ki-102-Cannon-1.jpg)
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well this one is a ac wish and is still valid as long as the ac is not in game. why make a new thread when search feature turrn up what you are looking for?
Exactly. Skuzzy isn't the forum Gestapo, seems like a pretty level headed chap actually.
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Ki-102b isn't an interesting aircraft but as far as combat goes is in the level of Re.2005 for example. Although its probably hard to admit when it comes to certain advocates of Japanese aircraft who oppose Re.2005. I wonder who I'm talking about. :D Anyways, Randy is a very interesting aircraft that would definitely be something that I'd love to see it in the LWMA but it's hardly a priority, not even close. It'd be pretty weird history-wise if it would be introduced before Ki-45.
One thing that is worth mentioning is the excellent power-to-weight ration of 2.4kg/hp, that's very nice for a twin, two seat heavy fighter.
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I agree it is pretty much on the level of the Re.2005.
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Ki-102b isn't an interesting aircraft but as far as combat goes is in the level of Re.2005 for example. Although its probably hard to admit when it comes to certain advocates of Japanese aircraft who oppose Re.2005. I wonder who I'm talking about. :D Anyways, Randy is a very interesting aircraft that would definitely be something that I'd love to see it in the LWMA but it's hardly a priority, not even close. It'd be pretty weird history-wise if it would be introduced before Ki-45.
One thing that is worth mentioning is the excellent power-to-weight ration of 2.4kg/hp, that's very nice for a twin, two seat heavy fighter.
Lack of armor?
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Lack of armor?
Perhaps, though it does have slightly more power than the Bf110G-2 and the Japanese did put some armor and self sealing tanks on their late war stuff, and this is very late war.
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+1 Add the plane
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(http://i718.photobucket.com/albums/ww189/sasforever99030507/Ki-102-12.jpg)
(http://i718.photobucket.com/albums/ww189/sasforever99030507/Ki-102-Cannon-1.jpg)
What are those plates riveted on on the underside of the nose covering?
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A 10 year bump.
I think this would be a very cool addition to our planeset. The Japanese could use a twin engined attack aircraft :cheers:
anyone have a "Holy Necrobump, Batman" pic? :D