Aces High Bulletin Board
Special Events Forums => Friday Squad Operations => Topic started by: TUK on March 28, 2009, 09:55:29 AM
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Missed the whole thing due to bad wheather (disco's) . How did everyone do? :salute
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:salute JOKERs JOKERs excellent escort fellas :salute
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so-so, Had a lot of connection issue due to ice storm in Kansas. Must have heard 3 transmitter blowing up. There is nothing that can get you jumpping right out of bed at 4 in the morning when one gos off right next to your house.
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First run went well. We lost two planes rearming when another friendly on the pad fired his guns. Second run went not so well, as the bombers we were escorting elected for a low-alt second strike on the original target and we never caught up after climbing to altitude. Got caught by some 109s and made a fighting retreat S. We were doing pretty well until a second squadron of 110s joined the party.
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AS usual or our squad was ordered to 25k to cap (rediculous) and as usual we were overwhelmed by 2 v 1 odds as our 8 seafires were attacked by 20 110-g2 which had attacked the cv from LOW alt as usual. The 110's were escorted by 109 g-2's so not sure but the odds may have been as high as 4 v 1.
A big SALUTE to the axis CiC who completely out planned and out executed the Allies :rock
VF-17 gave as good an account as it could for itself and I am proud to fly with them
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Boxboy, how many other friendly squadrons were out there with you?
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Hope you aren't talking about Frame I as being "as usual" because in Frame I, the CAP for C112 was your squad (who requested Seafires), another 4-6 commitment squad in Seafires, a 4-6 commitment squad in Spit IX, and a 4-6 commitment squad in P38. Your CO was in overall command of the Air Groups capping C112 and this is from the actual order set, "Coordinate with the other three squads on patrol routes and altitudes. It is suggested that you stagger altitudes to protect against possible low level attacks as well as higher level attacks by level and dive bombers. Remember that the JU88 can act as a torpedo bomber, level bomber, and dive bomber. It is also possible that you will encounter JU87 and ME110G-2."
:salute
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AS usual or our squad was ordered to 25k to cap (rediculous) and as usual we were overwhelmed by 2 v 1 odds as our 8 seafires were attacked by 20 110-g2 which had attacked the cv from LOW alt as usual. The 110's were escorted by 109 g-2's so not sure but the odds may have been as high as 4 v 1.
Rolling Thunder totally demolished all of the ships in the fleet... But we didn't fight any seafires at 25k... :huh
I was a little surprised how little protection the allies had assigned to the ships.
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Rolling Thunder totally demolished all of the ships in the fleet... But we didn't fight any seafires at 25k... :huh
I was a little surprised how little protection the allies had assigned to the ships.
Pfactor,
That was the other attack group which where attacking the cv group. We where the other attack group which was tasked with attacking the cruiser group without a cv.
dustoff :salute
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Pfactor,
That was the other attack group which where attacking the cv group. We where the other attack group which was tasked with attacking the cruiser group without a cv.
dustoff :salute
Hey Pfactor, from the loggs i see yall where in 110's. Were you guys heavy? Looked like you guy's had fun, was it strafing or bombing mostly? Just wondering? :salute Tuk151
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Boxboy, how many other friendly squadrons were out there with you?
Not sure who was supposed to be out there with us but NONE that I could see, but they came in low and we went down for Bombers as per orders maybe the others stayed high???
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Hope you aren't talking about Frame I as being "as usual" because in Frame I, the CAP for C112 was your squad (who requested Seafires), another 4-6 commitment squad in Seafires, a 4-6 commitment squad in Spit IX, and a 4-6 commitment squad in P38. Your CO was in overall command of the Air Groups capping C112 and this is from the actual order set, "Coordinate with the other three squads on patrol routes and altitudes. It is suggested that you stagger altitudes to protect against possible low level attacks as well as higher level attacks by level and dive bombers. Remember that the JU88 can act as a torpedo bomber, level bomber, and dive bomber. It is also possible that you will encounter JU87 and ME110G-2."
:salute
So all three frames you or whoever assigned 2 or 3, 4-6 commitment fighters to cap vs at least 2 v 1 odds everytime vs better flying and faster German Iron? In Frame 1 as I recall VF-17 did quite well and I can vouch for Tex01 folling any orders he got, so I am sure the other 2 light squads must have been layered below us. BTW I never saw an allied p-38 in any of the frames but I am sure they must have been there.
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So all three frames you or whoever assigned 2 or 3, 4-6 commitment fighters to cap vs at least 2 v 1 odds everytime vs better flying and faster German Iron? In Frame 1 as I recall VF-17 did quite well and I can vouch for Tex01 following any orders he got, so I am sure the other 2 light squads must have been layered below us. BTW I never saw an allied p-38 in any of the frames but I am sure they must have been there.
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AS usual or our squad was ordered to 25k to cap (rediculous) and as usual we were overwhelmed by 2 v 1 odds as our 8 seafires were attacked by 20 110-g2 which had attacked the cv from LOW alt as usual. The 110's were escorted by 109 g-2's so not sure but the odds may have been as high as 4 v 1.
A big SALUTE to the axis CiC who completely out planned and out executed the Allies :rock
Axis CO here, but for the record, I thought things went very badly for the Axis (I see now the results were fairly balanced). We were getting spanked in the center defense area, and the only thing that saved us was that several of the bombing attempts were off the mark, making a second follow up attack necessary. We regrouped as best we could, but the numbers quickly went in the Allies favor. The one area that went well for us was the attacks on the Allies shipping. I was very pleased with the Unforgiven, Killuminati, Duxford Wing, Rolling Thunder, Precision, and Mighty 316th. That is one 16-21 squad, one 7-10, and one 4-6 squad per target. The small squad scouted, with an attack and escort squad following behind.
Also, I must congratulate the Arabian Knights for taking a big chunk out of the Allies avalanche of planes. They held the line well against very nasty odds. Salute to the rest of the Axis squads too for a job well done, and to the Allies for being such a tough opponent. It was a very fun event.
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<S> JG2 and CHAPPY
You guys did very well in those things! It was a pleasure escorting you guys to and from V73 twice...right up the gut, was fun!
<S>
...and Texas20 just sick in those guns!
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Axis CO here, but for the record, I thought things went very badly for the Axis (I see now the results were fairly balanced). We were getting spanked in the center defense area, and the only thing that saved us was that several of the bombing attempts were off the mark, making a second follow up attack necessary. We regrouped as best we could, but the numbers quickly went in the Allies favor. The one area that went well for us was the attacks on the Allies shipping. I was very pleased with the Unforgiven, Killuminati, Duxford Wing, Rolling Thunder, Precision, and Mighty 316th. That is one 16-21 squad, one 7-10, and one 4-6 squad per target. The small squad scouted, with an attack and escort squad following behind.
Also, I must congratulate the Arabian Knights for taking a big chunk out of the Allies avalanche of planes. They held the line well against very nasty odds. Salute to the rest of the Axis squads too for a job well done, and to the Allies for being such a tough opponent. It was a very fun event.
Well, glad to know that the Allies weren't completely destroyed.
I apologize for not coming. There was a storm where I live, and my internet provider was down from Friday till today. Overall, it looks like it was a very even fight. It will be very interesting to see the score.
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So all three frames you or whoever assigned 2 or 3, 4-6 commitment fighters to cap vs at least 2 v 1 odds everytime vs better flying and faster German Iron? In Frame 1 as I recall VF-17 did quite well and I can vouch for Tex01 folling any orders he got, so I am sure the other 2 light squads must have been layered below us. BTW I never saw an allied p-38 in any of the frames but I am sure they must have been there.
In frame I, I assigned 4 squads to CAP C112. Yours a 7-10, and 3- 4-6 squads. That is a commitment level of 19-28. 11-16 in Seafires that were requested by those squads and 4-6 each of Spits and P38G. So you are telling me that you were fighting 2:1 odds, that the Axis sent 38-56 aircraft to attack a relatively insignificant CV group when they had another task force to attack as well as 8 bases to defend? I do not have access to the Axis orders but suspect that was not the case.
The Allied CiC in every frame had to defend two targets and attack 8 which means that the CiC had to use a lot of bombers. Figure in about 250 planned for pilots, is 25 pilots for each of the 10 targets/defenses. I suggest that before you complain too much about how bad of a deal your squad got, that you look at the big picture and consider that maybe assets have to be allocated to places where you do not happen to be.
"vs better flying and faster German Iron" ??? Better talk to Tex. Your squad requested Seafires and they were given what they requested, as was 880th in Spits and 5th Air Force in P38G. I was not required in Frame I to assign anyone to Seafires, but I attempt to give squads what they request. Which is not always possible. 880 Fleet Air Arm and yourself are Naval Squads and as such when you requested the only Naval aircraft in the plane set, I was happy to give them to you.
Better luck in future FSO :salute
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In frame I, I assigned 4 squads to CAP C112.
My question to Boxboy was for Frame 3 only. This kind of discussion is neither relevant nor helpful.
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:salute JOKERS JOKERS great job!
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So all three frames you or whoever assigned 2 or 3, 4-6 commitment fighters to cap vs at least 2 v 1 odds everytime vs better flying and faster German Iron? In Frame 1 as I recall VF-17 did quite well and I can vouch for Tex01 folling any orders he got, so I am sure the other 2 light squads must have been layered below us. BTW I never saw an allied p-38 in any of the frames but I am sure they must have been there.
Hello Boxboy. U may have met the Unforgiven. We were 110's and went NOE to the CV. We had 2 free passes when were were jumped by Seafires. We sank the CV, the Cruiser, the Destroyers, we came back and strafed life rafts... then we went and sold the women and children. We met High B-26's escorted by P38's and had alot of fun there... Overall we had some wine and cheese, groovy weather, listened to some tunes and turned the LZ into a beach party....
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Also, I must congratulate the Arabian Knights for taking a big chunk out of the Allies avalanche of planes. They held the line well against very nasty odds. Salute to the rest of the Axis squads too for a job well done, and to the Allies for being such a tough opponent. It was a very fun event.
:salute TracerX, TY and all will be passed on to the rest of the squad. Always glad to do what we can.
AKKaz
CO Arabian Knights
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:salute Tracer. Thanks from The Unforgiven. Every FSO is different. You really can't fault the planners. Think what a job that is... I am going to assemble of group of guys... that may or may not be there depending on what's going on in real life... with different skills (and impairments)... and fling them against another group... that may or may not be there... And we will see how it all works out. My squad was very lucky and had their name in lights for all three frames. But what can go wrong will probably go wrong in FSO. My squad is hooked on the event and if you were to listen in on our radio chatter... it's a wonder we get any thing accomplished. But the overall goal is the same... It's Friday night hanging out with your friends with something to do. I thought everybody did a great job... and success? Well, it's measured in numbers... More and More players are interested in FSO. The task... have fun!
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In frame I, I assigned 4 squads to CAP C112. Yours a 7-10, and 3- 4-6 squads. That is a commitment level of 19-28. 11-16 in Seafires that were requested by those squads and 4-6 each of Spits and P38G. So you are telling me that you were fighting 2:1 odds, that the Axis sent 38-56 aircraft to attack a relatively insignificant CV group when they had another task force to attack as well as 8 bases to defend? I do not have access to the Axis orders but suspect that was not the case.
The Allied CiC in every frame had to defend two targets and attack 8 which means that the CiC had to use a lot of bombers. Figure in about 250 planned for pilots, is 25 pilots for each of the 10 targets/defenses. I suggest that before you complain too much about how bad of a deal your squad got, that you look at the big picture and consider that maybe assets have to be allocated to places where you do not happen to be.
"vs better flying and faster German Iron" ??? Better talk to Tex. Your squad requested Seafires and they were given what they requested, as was 880th in Spits and 5th Air Force in P38G. I was not required in Frame I to assign anyone to Seafires, but I attempt to give squads what they request. Which is not always possible. 880 Fleet Air Arm and yourself are Naval Squads and as such when you requested the only Naval aircraft in the plane set, I was happy to give them to you.
Better luck in future FSO :salute
Well if you had read my post you would have noticed that I said we did quite well in frame 1, as for planning the bomber guys get 3 planes so 10 of them vs a target is 30 aircraft in the air (which they can jump back and forth in giving them 3 lives vs 1 for a fighter pilot). Oh well not to worry, we will be at the next FSO as well and will of course want to do our CV operations. A squadmate made a good observation which I failed to take into account, which is in these the events the axis guys usually fly their "everyday" rides, while we seldom get to fly our choosen ride the F4u, F6F. Anyhow just write it all off to "frustration" at being out flown I guess
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A squadmate made a good observation which I failed to take into account, which is in these the events the axis guys usually fly their "everyday" rides, while we seldom get to fly our choosen ride the F4u, F6F.
No doubt. They could have at least included some F4Fs.
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A squadmate made a good observation which I failed to take into account, which is in these the events the axis guys usually fly their "everyday" rides, while we seldom get to fly our choosen ride the F4u, F6F.
There's nothing that can be done about that. You're a Navy pilot you knew the job was dangerous when you took it. ;)
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No doubt. They could have at least included some F4Fs.
So, exactly how many Martlet squadrons were present for Operation Avalanche?
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So, exactly how many Martlet squadrons were present for Operation Avalanche?
Stoney since you asked...
I did a little research at this site. http://www.fleetairarmarchive.net/Home.html
Here is a list of Fleet Air Arm units who participated in Operation Avalanche by aircraft type.
(That I could find.) YMMV
Before I type the list let me say we requested the Seafire in VF-17 and got what we asked for.
The Martlet or F4F would not have made any difference in the outcome.
Our failure to defend the TF was ours, not our aircraft's nor was it the fault of the CICs.
Hopefully this discussion over the CVs can rest now. There's a new Operation to worry about.
Fleet Air Arm Units Operation Avalanche
Seafire Squadrons.
807
808
809
834
879
880
886
894
899
Martlet (F4F) Squadrons
878
888
890
893
Spitfire Mk IIb Squadron
887
Spitfire Mk V Squadron
897
Barracuda Squadron
810
Albacore Squadron
820
<S>
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Stoney since you asked...
Do you know what they were assigned with? My research had them doing convoy escort/U-Boat patrols and not engaged directly in the operation. That's why they weren't included. Perhaps Warloc will chime in--he has a lot of FAA resources.
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Here is what the Fleet Air Arm link I gave above has listed on its Battle Honors link for Operation Avalanche.
Salerno 1943
Operation Avalanche, support of landing forces at Salerno on the Mainland of Italy, 9 September to 6 October 1943.
Awarded to Squadron numbers: 807, 808, 809, 810, 820, 834, 878, 879, 880, 886, 887, 888, 890, 893, 894, 897, 899.
Awarded to HM aircraft carrying ships: Attacker, Battler, Formidable, Hunter, Illustrious, Stalker.
I had to research each squadron on the same site to find what aircraft they flew during the time period of Operation Avalanche.
Hopefully Warloc can shed more light on this.
This statement.... "Operation Avalanche, support of landing forces at Salerno on the Mainland of Italy, 9 September to 6 October 1943."
could very well mean nothing more than U-Boat patrol for some of the units. Sometimes unit participation in an operation can be painted with a pretty broad brush.
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Well yeah, I saw that from your previous link. What I would like to see are some resources that show they got rounds off against German air or ground targets.
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The LCA would like to send a :salute To the Axis. We met a very stiff defense on every frame. And a Thanks to the Allied CiC's, we got the aircraft we requested and did our best to follow orders. FSO's rock. :rock
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Well yeah, I saw that from your previous link. What I would like to see are some resources that show they got rounds off against German air or ground targets.
Well if you want to get scruffy over it, here ya go.
September 9th during Operation Avalanche saw 888 off Formidable score again, bringing down a Cantieri Z.506B float-plane. 842 Squadron (Lieut. Comdr. LR Tivy, RN), HMS Fencer, scored an FW-200, splashed by Sub-Lieut. Fleishman-Allen, on 1 December to round out 1943.
Found at this link
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=52196&start=0
Sorry I just couldn't find where they defended the CV against low level Bf-110Gs. :D
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Well if you want to get scruffy over it, here ya go.
Sorry, didn't intend for that to be a snarky comment. I was just trying to state that I had read through that website and seen the same thing as you mentioned.
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No problem, just from doing my own search I can imagine how hard it is to cover every unit and aircraft type when designing one of these setups. I appreciate you asking about Fleet Air Arm Martlets being involved. Like I said earlier I'm not convinced the F4F would have helped us.
<S>
We had a few rough frames lately and I do understand Boxboy's frustration he's a good guy and puts his heart and soul into his FSO flying.
It's a hard pill to swallow when you're a Navy squadron and cannot successfully CAP your own fleet and I'm as frustrated as he is. We'll find a way to skin this cat yet. :aok