Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: RELIC on April 10, 2009, 11:52:42 AM
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I rarely fly the 109 series - not very fond of the guns, views or the flight models, so I thought I'd pop in here for some help.
Last night I was flying the G2 and F4, prepping for the upcoming FSO, and was having a hard time with the flight model, especially of the G2. Seems to me it's like trying to ride a bicycle on a railway line in a stiff wind. I had combat trim off and tried flaps up and down with little effect. Any tips on this bird? What speed should I be trimming out at - does it help to be trimmed for level flight at lower or higher speeds?
Another question, I thought the G2 would be able to take an F6F in a stallfight but had one hell of a time last night - albeit the F6F was flown very well and I was in a bird I never fly - but shouldn't the G2 be able to handle the Hellcat?
Thanks in advance for any help.
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I have a great love for how the g2 flies and in my short time of flying and even shorter time with stall limiter off I have figured out a couple of things.
For one thing make sure you take the time to adjust your views. you get it so the bars in the canopy are mostly gone if you work at it a little. this will help immensely and then it's not so bad
Next thing I have noticed (at least for me) that thing has a nasty stall and throttle work is very important when trying to recover from one. I have been getting better with this even without the stall limiter
Also with the stall limiter off, don't just throw throttle full from idle. this can help induce a stall when you are slow. that engine has alot of torque.
Finally the last thing I have figured out when not using the stall limiter is that using alot of rudder when slow is not such a great thing. You will increase your roll rate but almost too much especially when slow.
now some of these things I have noticed may be exaggerated since I am inexperienced for the most part with the 109's but I do think they probably hold true to some extent anyway.
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What do you fly normally? The G-2 is probably the easiest of the 109 series to get a handle on. If you're having trouble with the stability, you can try the G-6, however the performance is worse, particularly in speed.
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@ dfkff49
I have set the views and got something usable - thanks for the info tho. I also found the rudder and throttle were giving me issues.
@ Motherland
When taking up a non perkie bird I usually fly American iron - the 51D, F4U1A, 38J&K. Those planes all feel much more stable with better rudder input - especially at low speeds with flaps out.
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When fighting in the Bf. 109 series, really the instability is something you can to use to your advantage. The torque and the rudder in particular are very useful. It's a small light aircraft with a huge engine and a large rudder, and thus both of these are very useful if used effectively, although if you don't have a feel of the aircraft they can bite you in the ass.
Although above this, what you really want to do is climb! (something you'd never do in a big fat heavy American bird :devil ). BnZ works OK with the 109 (it can be difficult because of the aircraft's problems with highspeed controlability), but something you can do against about 99% of the planeset is outclimb them... the sustained climb is great! The best virtue of the 109 series.
Try looking for some of Agent360's instructional films, they're supposed to be pretty good.
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I commonly insert 109 flights in between flying other birds because I think it takes far greater skill than many perky types planes.
I hope you find these early 109 (f\g2\g6) tips useful:
- If not bomber hunting don't use gondolas. You may just gain that extra bit of speed and turning ability needed to make the difference.
- Consider NOT taking a drop tank. I find a gain of approximately 5 mph without the tank mounting hardware drag.
- Against fighters, set convergence to 400 (or less) and don't shoot until you are at your convergence or closer (I like 375).
- Until you get to KNOW these 109's, when the plane is pointing toward the ground back off the throttle immediately like a habit. This will keep you from locking and allow you to stay at speeds where the plane can turn effectively.
- Know you can climb competitively or better than most planes.
- Hang on to your E like your life depends on it. I have seen many stats that show how good these 109s retain E but in practice it just does not feel that way to me.
- In turn fights don't turn right (unless you are using this as a tactic).
Things that make sense to others many times don't work for me or after months of trying magically start working. I find I keep finding "new" things about all these planes. The only thing that really changes though is my skill (ever so slightly).
Most importantly, don't take any advice here as literal (this post included). Use this material only as a guide and prove all advice and techniques for yourself.
Good hunting,
Slade :salute
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Thanks for the tips so far. Unfortunately most of the info given, while excellent, is stuff I was already aware of. I need to double check that I didn't have the gondolas loaded up - I was pretty sure I didn't. Does it make a difference between the 200 or 150 cannon loadout? I assume it would not.
I was aware of the compression issues but I thought that in a low speed stallfight I would be able to easily handle an F6F. The low speed handling really threw me for a loop. Am I correct in flying with combat trim off for the G2? I normally trim out level at higher speeds and this works fine for me even in low speed fights - should I be trimmed for lower speeds?
Or perhaps I simply need 30 - 40 hours of flight time in her!
Thanks again to all who are trying to help.
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The F6F is a monster slow if someone competent is flying it. One thing you would want to use would be your superior climb rate, not try to get slower/out turn it. The 109 is more of an energy fighter than anything else.
On the subject of trim, I usually find myself trimming the aircraft constantly. You can't really 'set it and forget it' once you start fighting, or you'll end up fighting the aircraft as the demands of the fight changes.
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Against the F6F you need to keep the fight vertical, and I don't mean loops. There's no reason why you shouldn't have an immediate energy advantage after a fair merge against the F6F with the 109G-2; the climbrate advantage is significant.
I have more hours in the 109 than any other AH plane, and the only time I turn combat trim off is during a high speed dive.
How about you post a film for review?
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Perhaps part of the problem is my underestimating the G2 vs the F6F. I don't have a film but we were in tight and slow, fighting in the vert the entire time. Also, I was having "one of those nights". I was entirely too sober with no flying tunes - ya that's the problem.
I will try turning combat trim on and see if that helps. I've seen some amazing stick work by a few players in the German birds so I know it can be done.
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Perhaps part of the problem is my underestimating the G2 vs the F6F. I don't have a film but we were in tight and slow, fighting in the vert the entire time. Also, I was having "one of those nights". I was entirely too sober with no flying tunes - ya that's the problem.
I will try turning combat trim on and see if that helps. I've seen some amazing stick work by a few players in the German birds so I know it can be done.
In my experience, the best way to fight F6Fs in almost any plane is too keep the fight loose, i.e. the opposite of tight and slow. The F6F has poor acceleration, so forcing your opponent to turn, accelerate, turn, accelerate will wear him down.
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I rarely fly the 109 series - not very fond of the guns, views or the flight models, so I thought I'd pop in here for some help.
Last night I was flying the G2 and F4, prepping for the upcoming FSO, and was having a hard time with the flight model, especially of the G2. Seems to me it's like trying to ride a bicycle on a railway line in a stiff wind. I had combat trim off and tried flaps up and down with little effect. Any tips on this bird? What speed should I be trimming out at - does it help to be trimmed for level flight at lower or higher speeds?
Another question, I thought the G2 would be able to take an F6F in a stallfight but had one hell of a time last night - albeit the F6F was flown very well and I was in a bird I never fly - but shouldn't the G2 be able to handle the Hellcat?
Thanks in advance for any help.
Hi RELIC
Contrary to what some may say, I have not found the G2 to be the easiest to pick up of the 109's, that award goes to the F. Fly the 109F if you are looking for more of a pure stallfighter (even though the F does have some other tricks in the bag).
As for the G2, using it with combat trim is perfectly acceptable. The only exception is when your speed gets over 350-400, the 109 starts to lose elevator authority. Trim up to get yourself out of some nasty uncontrollable dives.
Fight vertical in the G2. You have 9 minutes of WEP, and it is a beastly climber with WEP. Some planes can still match you vertically (Spit16, LA-7, 109K) but...well there's a saying about speed/turn rate, and I think it applies to 109G2 climb rate/turn rate as well. Usually the saying is that anything that can out RUN you, you can out turn. With the 109G2, it's beauty is that pretty much anything that can out CLIMB you, you can out turn, or at least turn with competitively enough to bring the outcome determinant down to pilot skill.
And vice versa of course. Any turny plane will not be able to match you vertically.
So what does all this mean, all this "fight vertical"? It means keep your nose high when possible, use manuevers that convert your E into potential E by gaining altitude. You have a very good conversion rate by virtue of the 109's climb rate; you gain more potential E for every 1 mph of IAS lost than most planes. Other planes starting from the same E state won't be able to match your conversion rate (ie, they don't climb as well), so if they try to match your vertical manuevering you will be in possession of greater total E by the completion of your manuever (Total E can be defined as IAS + Potential E). Whether this means you find yourself co-alt with greater IAS, or at a higher alt with equal IAS, it does not matter, you now have more E.
As a final note, you mentioned stall fighting with a F6F. Don't. The F6F is one of the best turners in the game, I don't know where you got the impression otherwise. But you know what? It's climb rate is lackluster. If you meet a F6F co-E (unless that E is very high and therefore the zoom capability of the F6F comes into play), you should have no trouble at all winning the perch and thus winning the fight.
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Excellent info. Sounds like I was overestimating the low speed abilities of the G2 - all part of the learning process. I will adjust tactics accordingly and turn on the stall limiter.
Now if 5 o'clock would just hurry up and arrive.
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I will adjust tactics accordingly and turn on the stall limiter.
Hell no!, Not the stall limiter! I hope you meant Combat Trim...
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LOL yes I meant Combat Trim! Brain fart!
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So what does all this mean, all this "fight vertical"? It means keep your nose high when possible, use manuevers that convert your E into potential E by gaining altitude. You have a very good conversion rate by virtue of the 109's climb rate; you gain more potential E for every 1 mph of IAS lost than most planes. Other planes starting from the same E state won't be able to match your conversion rate (ie, they don't climb as well), so if they try to match your vertical manuevering you will be in possession of greater total E by the completion of your manuever (Total E can be defined as IAS + Potential E). Whether this means you find yourself co-alt with greater IAS, or at a higher alt with equal IAS, it does not matter, you now have more E.
Excellent explanation from the Trotter dude (who is a menace in a P-47 as well).
One additional point. All planes turn best when pointed straight up or straight down. Go up (or down), roll in direction you want to turn, and pull through. With the 109s, which are generally the best climbers of the game, this conserves your energy and lets you turn inside planes like the Hellcat (which is not real fond of climbs).
- oldman
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Lag Displacement Roll.
The lag displacement roll is a very good solution to the right turn problems. You dont want to follow in right turns so the lag displacement roll is a great solution, its also a very e friendly solution.
When your enemy breaks right you pull up, roll left and come back down 90 degree to original heading and you come from a high six position.
Tex
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Unless you're at the edge of a stall, you're exaggerating the effect of torque. Keep in mind that most of your opponents also have torque that pulls to the left; I almost never have a hard time rolling right to follow a bandit in the 109.
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Flew the F4 last night in the FSO. Nice little plane but wish it had one more cannon.
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Hell no!, Not the stall limiter! I hope you meant Combat Trim...
:rofl :aok
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Last night I was flying the G2 and F4, prepping for the upcoming FSO, and was having a hard time with the flight model, especially of the G2.
The F4 is a much easier bird to learn than the G2, believe it or not. The G2 is very well suited to a sort of mid-level, mid-speed E fight whereas the F is more suited to "entry-level" stall fighting due to the softer breakaway and easier recovery.
Comparing the two, I'd simply recommend you fight the F like it was a Spit 9 and fight the G2 like it was a Yak.
Another question, I thought the G2 would be able to take an F6F in a stallfight but had one hell of a time last night - albeit the F6F was flown very well and I was in a bird I never fly - but shouldn't the G2 be able to handle the Hellcat?
At low speeds with flaps out and proper trim, the F6F will be a handful for a G2. In that sort of situation, your best bet (as is the case with any early-early, mid-mid or late-late 109 vs X match up) is to use your superior power to weight ratio to gain a vertical advantage. The F6F has nowhere near the G2's ability to add E through acquiring altitude - during a fight.
Off the cuff, using that G2 v F6F match up, I'd offer the following:
1.) Take the fight into the vertical as soon as possible. You will gain energy rapidly and, should the Hellcat elect to try and follow, he will lose energy just as quickly. The fight can go from even, to heavily lopsided in your favor, within the space of about 10 seconds.
2.) Trim tail heavy. Combat trim seems to be especially troublesome on the 109's in stall fights. It limits your ability to bring the nose around in both the vertical and horizontal plains and will fight against the port leaning engine torque (which is an advantage once you learn to use it).
3.) Once properly trimmed and fighting in the vertical, it should be easy to bleed a heavy, underpowered AC like the F6F, of any E advantage - and hold it for yourself. Once a position above the Hellcat is obtained, the G2 has an uncanny ability to hang in the air with proper throttle management and careful use of the control surfaces. Ill try and type out a visual...
Imagine yourself in a lazy rolling scissor with the Hellcat. After a few rounds, you are both slow but you are on top.
Continue trying to claw altitude by weaving back and forth above him. This will put you in a risky position and you must carefully judge the Hellcat's E state to determine whether he has just enough E to get guns on you - or just enough E to bring his nose up in desperation (read: no shot).
When the 109 starts to become unstable, apply full rudder right, full aileron right and ease up on the throttle (flaps out goes without saying). While reducing throttle in a climb sounds downright stupid, it will keep you level and stable by reducing the high torque/light airframe relationship between the DB605 and the G2 tub.
All this time, you should have the ability to rock your wings, while weaving, and get a visual on him, just below you.
When you see his nose begin to shudder and drop below the horizon, he's had it and you are now in complete control of the fight.
Apply full left rudder, full left aileron, slight back pressure on the stick and jam the throttle to WEP.
The combination of these factors will, almost within the space of your aircraft, snap roll you around, using primarily the engine torque, and if youve done it right, youll get a clear shot at him from about 150 yards and can rake him from nose to tail.
Once you see that shot coming, ease up on the throttle again and reduce control surface input to regain stability.
Shoot. Boom. Rinse. Repeat.
The entire engagement shouldnt last more than 20-25 seconds.
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Excellent info. Sounds like I was overestimating the low speed abilities of the G2 - all part of the learning process. I will adjust tactics accordingly and turn on the stall limiter.
Now if 5 o'clock would just hurry up and arrive.
The 109G2 will out fly the 109f4. Yes the 109f4 is the turner however it is not as fast and is out classed in RAW climb at slow speed by all the other 109's.
ALL 109's have superior flying characteristincs when slow over almost all other planes when VERY slow. The ability to keep the nose up in a constant climbing scissor is the key. This really means you can point your nose up and pull over almost every time in a rolling scissor while forcing your opponent to fly a straiter scissor. You get constant guns solutions while he struggles to avoid.
All 109's and especially the 109G2 have EXCELLANT slow speed handling. The combonation of raw climb and wing stalling make it nearly impossible to stay behind....especially in a well planned overshoot scissor move.
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Just checked back and lots more good info. Thanks again!