Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: 1Boner on April 22, 2009, 02:43:39 PM
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I am by no means even a mediocre player, but I can't figure out how to do, or counter, this mystery move.
Right after the merge I will look back and see the guy who just flew past me in the opposite direction literally 1 second ago is now on my 6.
This seems to happen in the blink of an eye.
Occasionaly I look back in time to see what I will call a "cobra" manuver, yet the plane doesn't seem to lose any energy!
Everytime I see this happen I know I am dead.
Can anyone shed some light on this mystery (to me) move?? :noid
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Film would help.
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Film would help.
I'd even dare to say: It's essential ;)
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Right after the merge I will look back and see the guy who just flew past me in the opposite direction literally 1 second ago is now on my 6.
This seems to happen in the blink of an eye.
What angle is he coming at you into the merge at?
A simple lead turn on the merge will put his nose on your tail quickly after the merge if he times it correctly.
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Thanks guys, will do on the film.
Its ALWAYS the top fighters in the game that pull this move on me.
Hopefully I will run into one of these guys soon and will post.
:salute
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What angle is he coming at you into the merge at?
A simple lead turn on the merge will put his nose on your tail quickly after the merge if he times it correctly.
We will usually fly right past each other very close, as I'm waiting for the HO that doesn't happen!! :pray
It looks like they are pointing the nose almost straight up, yet they climb very little and then fall into the opposite direction right behind me.
I've tried extending a little to get some distance for manuvering, but they don't seem to lose any energy and I can't seem to shake them even though I haven't turned or slowed down at all.
I'll try to film it and post it.
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Holy :pray "Bat Turn" Batman!
Ren
Aces High Training Corps
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Yeah, that's really not possible as described in a mostly horizontal plane unless lag or some other issue is changing how it's displayed on your screen. Get the film, watch it a few times. Watch it a few times from their view. Hopefully we can figure it out.
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Boner- when you see this on a merge, you wouldn't by any chance be above him as you merge, and then pulling for an immelmann?
When you do a merge, are you trying to be above him, below him, beside him, below him nosing up as you merge, above him and nosing down as you merge? What do you prefer, and how does it normally seem to happen?
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I am by no means even a mediocre player, but I can't figure out how to do, or counter, this mystery move.
Right after the merge I will look back and see the guy who just flew past me in the opposite direction literally 1 second ago is now on my 6.
This seems to happen in the blink of an eye.
Occasionaly I look back in time to see what I will call a "cobra" manuver, yet the plane doesn't seem to lose any energy!
Everytime I see this happen I know I am dead.
Can anyone shed some light on this mystery (to me) move?? :noid
not to give ya a short answer.......go to the ta, and find ren. he showed it to me, and how to do it...but i suck at explaining it, or doing it yet......
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Yeah, that's really not possible as described in a mostly horizontal plane unless lag or some other issue is changing how it's displayed on your screen. Get the film, watch it a few times. Watch it a few times from their view. Hopefully we can figure it out.
Yeah, I know it sounds impossible and I'm sure that when I record and view a film, it will become apparent that what I "think" I'm seeing and whats really going on are 2 different things.
But I'm tellin ya, the description above accurately describes what I think I'm seeing.
It hasn't happened just once or twice.
Over the years this has happened quite a few times.
Could be old age settin in.
Thanks for answering a dottering ol fool anyways guys! :salute
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I remember a film Nath posted of the cobra maneuver; he turned 180 degrees almost on the spot and served a zeke a 30mm, was pretty amazing. It requires hard rudder and stick movements to do, but you will blow your energy doing this. Not sure if this is the same thing you are describing however.
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I'd start a gentle (ish) spiral climb in the opposite direction of his turn until you figure out how much e has.
Most of the better turning planes will pull hard for guns after a merge but they only really have effective guns range for a few seconds before you outpace them. If you fly straight your making it an easier shot for them or if you try looking for angles by turning you'll be helping him get back that e he lost in the super sharp turn and your already at an angles disadvanage.
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Sounds like the plane dove slightly under him into a high yoyo? and slid back on 6.
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I've seen this "Cobra" move before, always an La-7 or a Spixteen, never anything else. Right after the merge they do what looks like an immelmann but it takes hardly any space. The few times that I've seen this has been in the 190D-9 and they are able to reverse immediately after the merge, no more than 400-600 out, and then start gaining (in the case of the La-7 anyways). I know not to get a 190 slow when I'm fighting in it, especially the Dora, but with my little aerodynamic experience, wouldn't a maneuver like that bleed an exceptional amount of energy?
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They will only gain on your if you try to pull harder to turn into them (plane match-up pending, of course. Spit5 vs Lancaster in a head on merge may provide different results). Once you notice they have gone full persuit from the merge and you dont stand a chance of slowing down in time to compete it is wise to make your next move wide, fast and high. Try to lead them in a direction that increases their G force and drag to follow you. Manage their energy with how you lead them as well as your own.
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I'm sure this probably isn't what you're talking about but I can do something similair to a cobra in a spit 16-9 and F6F. It's not a pure cobra but by pulling the stick all the way back, using about 80-90% right rudder and full opposite ailleron you can put the planes into a controlable stall with over a 90 degree angle of attack(not sure if that's the right term for it.) I found that doing such a move will bleed off about 50 mph in a few seconds and can be done at almost any speed below 300 mph without flaps in a spit 16. If you pull the move for too long you will continue to bleed energy but the plane will go into a back flip which is not easy to recover from.
AKRaVeN
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They will only gain on your if you try to pull harder to turn into them.
That's the problem, what I'm talking about here is a nose to nose merge, they pull the move so quickly I could tell what they were doing and decide not to pull a reversal, then magically they start closing. The fight where I remember this was, I was in an A8 and an La-7 along with a large horde following, the La comes in a flat, nose to nose merge, I decided to keep going as to not bleed my E, as I knew I would be killed by the Horde. The La just comes in does the cobra and then starts closing. At the time I was wepping and on the deck. Whatever this move is, I would love to know how it's done
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With film it would be evident. The La7 came in at around 400mph or much more possibly, your A8 may only have been going alot slower when you merged head to head. The La7 can burn all his excess speed in a hard 180 loops and then dive back down to almost the same speed in persuit with its formidable diving acceleration. This is a possibility i think.
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With film it would be evident. The La7 came in at around 400mph or much more possibly, your A8 may only have been going alot slower when you merged head to head. The La7 can burn all his excess speed in a hard 180 loops and then dive back down to almost the same speed in persuit with its formidable diving acceleration. This is a possibility i think.
First off, I never film. Secondly, like I said in my previous post, I know very well not to bleed my E in a 190, I wouldn't be caught with my pants down in a situation like that. Also, like the OP said, this move is used in the space of seconds, not a hard 180 loop and then dive on me. There would still be a period of egress, even if slight(~egress of only 200 yds.) in a reversal like that, I've seen it done before, and have done it myself.
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if you are merging head to head, as you say, then it is not a reversal as far as I know. It is a merge, you are being out merged by either a factor of plane performance, relative speeds, vertical seperation or pilot ability. (you refuse to help yourself by filming and letting us help you)
You cannot view things as 'up down left right faster slower'. The speed induced four dimensional aspect of moving in free three dimensional space is confusing your eye to see something impossible.
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I know what he's saying, I seen it done in a ME109 and at first I thought I was seeing things, the 109 was in a climb and merged with another plane and while I was watching the 109 did what I would call a half turn it was as if it slid around in place and was heading in the other direction on the plane he was in the merge with. I'll see if I have it on one of my films!
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I don't film much although I wish I had many times for the truly good fights.
There have been a few times I've been chasing someone (both of us slightly nose down for speed)and they'd be 1.5 - 2.0k ahead of me then somehow do an instant reverse that I can't see happening. I'll be thinking I'm still following but in actuality their coming right back at me and slightly nose up for the ho.
They are far and few between and since i don't film often, they're hard to catch. The one i remember most was an F4U but never found out eho he was.
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First off, I never film. Secondly, like I said in my previous post, I know very well not to bleed my E in a 190, I wouldn't be caught with my pants down in a situation like that. Also, like the OP said, this move is used in the space of seconds, not a hard 180 loop and then dive on me. There would still be a period of egress, even if slight(~egress of only 200 yds.) in a reversal like that, I've seen it done before, and have done it myself.
Bats right this is just an illusion on your part if you had the film and looked at the speeds at the merge and how it was done it would become clear. I can understand about not filming if your pc sucks like mine but it would be worth filming until this happened to you again. Like bat said in the clear light of film you'll see its just an efficient turn started with more energy perhaps helped by you rolling the plane slightly to watch him behind you.
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I have the same thing happen to me alot. Head to head clean merge then BAM I get shot down within a split-second by the same plane. I as well, need to run films of these. I have done an instant reversal in a P-51 before. I cannot do it again, I have tried. Not sure what the speed, throttle position, rudder or stick movements were at the time. All I know was it was a high speed merge and a climbing reversal that got me a kill.
Interested in seeing films of this "mystery move" myself. I'll run films of my own and maybe compare to yours Boner.
SALUTE
A8Chewey :salute
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mysterious :lol,
My favourite move that i nailed after about 2 years of flying and dying is what i would call a barrel roll overshoot/wingover/ reversal, you can set it up from any angle, you aren't strictly nose to nose but off to one side, you pull up and left/right, roll about 90 degrees whatever way you turn in, stop rolling (the con flies through the gap) I can shoot them inverted on the snapshot or roll out behind them and take a shot as they are extending away, more often than not they haven't a clue where i've gone because i'm behind them on their 6 and they will then blow their E advantage by panicking and hard looping it whilst i am slow i can stall underneath and latch onto them as they dive past going too fast and then get an even longer shot. If I miss the initial shot (rare) they will be dead on the second shot (bruv don't miss twice ;))
I guess film will be the easiest medium to show this witchcraft called ACM!
I can't go into any more detail as this is my bread and butter kill / defence and although i've perfected it, if everyone knew how to do it I would never get a kill.
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And if everyone else had kept it secret too, you would possibly never have learnt it :p
It is a great move though, the only real way to counter an attack and return fire in one move.
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There are a lot of fun moves you can try, outside of a hiccup in the FM modeling certain realities do apply however. For a plane to pull a sudden reverse it needs to be within a certain flight parameter. A "high speed" reverse has to have a wingtip stall to accomplish. Some planes will do this much better then others. In addition rudder inputs greatly impact this type of move as does Elevator authority. In effect the opposing pilot is using the rotational capabilities of the airframe (in 3 dimensions) to reverse course. vs using degrees of radius.
The reality is that this move has to be properly set up with both speed and separation within certain limits. It also has to be initiated earlier then you think. He's got to be maneuvering before the merge to spring the reverse at the merge. I can "flip" a 190D or 152 at high speed since they will stall a wingtip at 300+ mph. However without a vertical component (elevator) to bring the rudder into play nothing works. Basically what you have is a high speed stall/spin executed at a high AoA and recovered after 1/2 rotation. This limits your speed at inception but provides a down hill ramp to accelerate. Initiated prior to the merge this can result in a bogey appearing to "pop up" and right back around on your 6. If your own speed falls within certain limits or you react with control inputs that scrub speed then you can be caught. However if you've flown your own merge correctly then you chuckle and swat the guy in the head at your leisure. Thats why you don't see this stuff very often....its ineffective vs a good stick.
This is not to be confused with the Bruv/Bat/Blukitty/Greebo school of reversal kungfu .... totally different things.
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I've had the same thing happen to me and of course I'm never recording when it happens. I think the angles they are taking gives the appearance that they're coming straight at you when their actually not taking a straight path.
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Is this what you are talking about? I am the one who dies so it should look similar to yours if i've got you right.
http://www.freeroleentertainment.com/11kownme.ahf
S! 11 :)
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Get film and then study it. Physics is physics. It is relatively easy for a higher e fighter to immel at the merge and be on his opponenet's six if his oppoenent straight lines it. More precisely, the high e fighter is doing a half cuban 8. Immel over the top until the nose is below the horizon, role upright and accelerate in an unloaded dive toward the opponent.
When you see the film you'll see one,or a combination of differences that will make it clear how it was done. First, you may find that he actually had an altitude advantage which he converted to speed by diving down to your altitude, maybe even before you saw him. Second, he probably was set up for a lead turn on the merge giving him even less degrees-to-go to get his nose back on. These claims of a "magical" reversal, over-modeled airplanes, even "hacking" have been around for years and I've never once seen a film that shows anything but that which can be explained by one or both of the above. Pilots need to understand that they will probably not remember everything exactly as it actually occured, that's why you should always film and review the film if something happens that you don't understand. If people would only do that I think Ch 200 would be a lot quieter.
One of my favorite instances of this was when I did this in a Hurricane against a Tempest. Ch 200 was a tirade of indignation and accusations from the Tempest pilot. He was being chased directly toward me, I dove down accelerating to about 400mph, did a lead turn and dove right in on his six. He claimed that he was going 450 (film showed him at about 300). He claimed I climbed up to him (he only saw me after I had dove down below him and started pulling up for a vertical lead turn). I was almost pure vertical at the merge which means I only had about 100-120 degrees to turn. He claimed I "warped myself" onto his six (film showed nothing but a half cuban 8). I used to have this film but lost in when I had to do a complete reinstallation of windows on my PC.
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Ive had this happen, and boy whatever the trick or skill is I'd sure like to learn it. Usually its right after a merge when Im in a superior turning aircraft. I try and track him while Im turning, but cant cause he's somehow on my "6". With our energy states and aircraft types it just seemed impossable and I never saw any plane dancing due to lag.
But, maybe he was just that good. Or, I just suck. Or, both. :uhoh
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Ive had this happen, and boy whatever the trick or skill is I'd sure like to learn it. Usually its right after a merge when Im in a superior turning aircraft. I try and track him while Im turning, but cant cause he's somehow on my "6". With our energy states and aircraft types it just seemed impossable and I never saw any plane dancing due to lag.
But, maybe he was just that good. Or, I just suck. Or, both. :uhoh
There is no 'trick', it's a rather basic merge move on the part of the bandit. The bandit is setting up for the merge before you guys actually merge, this allows the bandit to use a lead turn to latch on your six and stay there immediately after you both merge. Awhile back I was accused of cheating by a player that I kept on shooting down using this type of merge. Posted the films in these forums with a detailed explanation on what I did. Not sure if the thread still exists after the forum migration.
ack-ack
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I am by no means even a mediocre player, but I can't figure out how to do, or counter, this mystery move.
Right after the merge I will look back and see the guy who just flew past me in the opposite direction literally 1 second ago is now on my 6.
This seems to happen in the blink of an eye.
Occasionaly I look back in time to see what I will call a "cobra" manuver, yet the plane doesn't seem to lose any energy!
Everytime I see this happen I know I am dead.
Can anyone shed some light on this mystery (to me) move?? :noid
without film, who knows, but something that has not been mentioned is perhaps lose of SA and didn't see the second con?
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without film, who knows, but something that has not been mentioned is perhaps lose of SA and didn't see the second con?
no thats not it and it's what AcK Ack said, It's just the angles make it look like he's making a hard move when he's been in a slow gradual turn a long way out.
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I find it interesting no one has film of a "mysterious move"........ :O
I have been following this thread with anticapation.
Theres not one of you who has film of me pulling this move on you guys....LOLOLOLOL.
I KNOW the 38 drivers have some of them doing it on me.
This kind of topic comes up alot. I am surprised no one has "stock footage" of the "mysterious move"
:D
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Know what i would do. DA a good stick and see if he uses it, if he does ask him bout it.
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I actualy posted an example film on page 1 of 11k doing the move to me. No one cares, not my problem. :)
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I actualy posted an example film on page 1 of 11k doing the move to me. No one cares, not my problem. :)
Batty,you looked great right up till the mossie lost it's tail..... :D
:devil
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Oh yea, all he did was cut his throttle, you had more E than him making the easy.
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Oh yea, all he did was cut his throttle, you had more E than him making the easy.
I looked at bats film and this example shows how it is done in a looser fashion but it does not show the move in its classical tight immediate reversal.
It is not a simple matter of just "cutting the throttle". There is a lot more to it.
I will get some film up for you guys in the next few days showing how this is done.
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<--------- waits for Agents films patiently outside........
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Yea me too, i need to use more throttle control.
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It’s impossible to do a “cobra” type maneuver without dumping a ton of E.
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This move is NOT a cobra type move. A cobra CAN NOT be done in a prop plane.
It is in fact a type of rolling scissor reversal that gets a very close gun solution. It involves a type stalling verticle snap turn that swings the nose and tail around in an arc. What really happens is the other guy simply flys to your guns. You dont really to anything other than swing the nose around while he fly into the gun solution.
The cobra thing comes from how it looks to you when you get shot. It appears to be a total end over end move. But it is not. Viewed from a out of plane perspective you will see that it is nothing more than a very tight verticle scissor.
There are two basic things that must happen. 1st the bandit MUST ATTEMPT to get guns. 2nd YOU MUST achieve some amount of verticle seperation on the pull up.
I didn't get it on film last night. But tonight I will.
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i thought the OP was refering more to being beaten on the merge by neglecting vertical seperation or lead turn and speed. Would be interested if OP would watch it and comment.
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I find it interesting no one has film of a "mysterious move"........ :O
I have been following this thread with anticapation.
Theres not one of you who has film of me pulling this move on you guys....LOLOLOLOL.
I KNOW the 38 drivers have some of them doing it on me.
This kind of topic comes up alot. I am surprised no one has "stock footage" of the "mysterious move"
:D
The only mystery is on the side from those that really don't know how to merge properly. For those, like us that do, it's a basic merge that exploits the other guy's terrible merge. Because the guy that just died can't figure out how the other guy was able to build enough seperation prior to the merge and then latch on using a simple lead turn, it's a mystery to him.
I know I posted a film showing the merge after I was accused by a group of players of cheating by using a "mystery move" that allowed to me to latch on their six immediately after merge. Don't know if the thread survived the forum migration though.
ack-ack
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I haven't read the whole thread, but has any body mentioned throttle control yet?
Boner, if you are flying with the throttle firewalled all the time , it may exacerbate your problem with getting around or over the top.
Sometimes all that available horsepower can work against you.
cheers,
RTR
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i thought the OP was refering more to being beaten on the merge by neglecting vertical seperation or lead turn and speed. Would be interested if OP would watch it and comment.
LOL...your right he did ask about the merge turn. I got sidetracked later in the thread reffering to the other "mystery move".
Well, I guess we have to show both on film now. hehe this will be fun.
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going to be a benifit to the community whichever moves you document so i vote do both :rock
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going to be a benifit to the community whichever moves you document so i vote do both :rock
Yes, please