Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Angus on April 23, 2009, 12:13:52 PM
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Since there are many of you involved in engineering, I have a question for you. What is your opinion on using (used) frying oil for diesel engines, the plus & minus, and practical application.
I saw a clip on this from "Top Gear", and the result was it being no problem at all. Filter it, mix it with a tad of white spirit (3 promilles from the top of my head), let it wait a week and use it. Runs fine on pure. Your Hp may go up.
The downsides I have heard is getting quickly thicker in the cold. Diesel also does that, so I mix it with mineral oil and add some two-stroke oil for the lubricating of the system. That is just fine.
Would this also mix with diesel? Is that perhaps the middle road to go?
The reason I ask, is that I run an old Perkins engine (tractor) frequently, and there are 4 restaurants within 1 km, as well as a big meat industry (including pre-cooked meals), so....just being practical, but remaining suspicious since nobody is doing it.
Hope some of you have something on this.
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Oh, forgot. Link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOFbsaNeZps
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You might google "vegetable oil titration". I know at least one company in the area that collects waste oil and processes it for use in their diesel equipment. I've seen the process demonstrated, using fairly expensive tank/pump/filter contraptions, but at the time, diesel had doubled in cost here, and IIRC, providing you could source enough oil, it was relatively simple and cheap to produce. I believe the first diesel engine actually ran on peanut oil, incidentally.
I'm a bit leery of the "just dump some white spirit in and go", as there are acids in the waste oil, small food particles and such, but in an old tractor (no injectors to clog, nothing terribly fragile in the fuel system), it might be fine.
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Do a search, there is a lot of information on this subject.
Personally I think using wvo to make bio-diesel is a great idea. I'm not as big of a fan of using svo as a fuel.
Also I have heard from many people that using straight bio B100 will clean out the fuel system to the extreme. Many say that they have too change three or four fuel filters before they quite plugging up with junk from the fuels system.
If you can find a reliable source for your wvo then you can usually make your fuel much cheaper then you can buy it. Be aware that you still may be liable for any fuel taxes on your fuel depending on what the local laws are.
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Here in Hot Springs there are a number of buses and services that use it. In the summer--it smells like hot french fries everywhere.
ROX
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Mythbusters did this one. They also managed to run a car on pure hydrogen for a couple minutes. Until it exploded. :D
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That gives me some questions.
For instance, how do you, at best, filter the frying oil. What kind of method and materials?
Then it's mixing. I'd not get enough to run pure, so what kind of a "coktail" would suit?
In winter, for instance, the normal diesel we get does not always work. They're running with just one sort over the year (before it was one special for winter), and it gets to thick, so you use some specials (which are expensive) or just mix with mineral oil (which costs about the same as diesel). The mineral oil dries out a little bit too much the lube quality (needed for the oil feeding system) so you add either just some engine oil (like 0,5%) or what is told to be better, - two-stroke oil, 2%. So welcome to the world of cocktails, and the difference this does for me is simply an engine running instead of...not.
My testbed would be a Perkins engine, 3 cyl, 47 hp, no complex system, just a simple engine. Design is from about 1965-1970. Secondary would be a Czech Zetor, also 3 cyl, 47 hp. Eastern block of old design.
Ahh, and the benefit. My countrymen haven't caught up with this, and most of those who would want this run modern engines and do not take risks. The fuel is up for grabs, and probably completely free of charge. That does make a bit, when you use 10 gallons a day, and the gallon costs you $4 off the pump.
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angus, search it out. I recall not too long ago (2-3 years) a writeup or Tv show about some guy converting some small diesel car to run on vegatable oil, running it across country, stopping off at restaurants and buying oil from them, and in some cases getting it for free. Might have been a Car&Driver or Road&Track article too, just dont remember where I saw it... said the exhaust spelled like french fries....
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If you just filter the vo and want to run basically straight vegetable oil (svo) then you have to make modifications to the engine. If you want to process your vo into bio-diesel then you have to modify the oil, but the engine needs no modifications.
To me it makes more sense to leave the engine alone and process bio. The reason I feel this way is if you lose your source of wvo you can still run the engine on dino diesel. You can't do that as easily if you modify the engine to run svo.
You also need to check around your area and see how much is available. Before you agree to take anything make sure you see the containers the oil comes in and verify that it is vegetable oil and not lard.
Over here you can get a bio diesel processor starting around $1,000. There are plans on the internet on how to build one. I know that several of the big diesel engine manufacturers certify their engines to a certain level of bio-diesel, ie. B10, B20 etc, but never to svo. If you had your heart set on running svo an older mechanical pumped engine would be way more desireable than an electronically controlled engine.
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One of my sergeants a few years back had a pickup that ran on fryer oil, if I could remember where he got the conversion kit from I'd post the link. Aside from the fact that his exhaust smelled like french fries and taco shells, it seemed to work just fine for him, and a lot of the place he got it from let him take it for free.
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angus, search it out. I recall not too long ago (2-3 years) a writeup or Tv show about some guy converting some small diesel car to run on vegatable oil, running it across country, stopping off at restaurants and buying oil from them, and in some cases getting it for free. Might have been a Car&Driver or Road&Track article too, just dont remember where I saw it... said the exhaust spelled like french fries....
Isn't that the guy who the govt sent a bill for auto fuel taxes, plus a fine for not paying them when the fuel was produced? Last I heard, the guy who got the bill wasn't having any luck getting a waiver.
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GO GREEN :rock
the best part of it all is it spits out way more pollutants .............. GO GREEN
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THANKS MR WIZARD
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GO GREEN :rock
the best part of it all is it spits out way more pollutants .............. GO GREEN
But it smells like popcorn. :D and cost twice as much as regular diesel. doh!
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Visit some local Mercedes Benz user forums many US benz enthusiasts have been filtering their homebrew for ages. Especially older generation MB runs great on veggie oil.
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Sik1:
"If you had your heart set on running svo an older mechanical pumped engine would be way more desireable than an electronically controlled engine.""
Yup, it's old, just mechanical and seems to be very tolerant. One engine in the country of the same brand has been running for quite a while with no trouble. On pure oil by the way.
What's Lard?
GO GREEN :rock
the best part of it all is it spits out way more pollutants .............. GO GREEN
As it is right now, it either gets burned or simply dumped. I think your equation is wrong....
As for the price, for me, AFAIK free... Would cut my fuel bill by 50-100%
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Angus...
Google BioDiesel, or check here http://www.biodiesel.org/
Cheers
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Isn't that the guy who the govt sent a bill for auto fuel taxes, plus a fine for not paying them when the fuel was produced? Last I heard, the guy who got the bill wasn't having any luck getting a waiver.
could be, its been awhile since I read or saw it. Didnt the govt try to fine Willie Nelson over bio fuels?
btw been meaning to tell you my son is at Sheppard now, tech school for avionics, he goes to Cannon in July
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Just to be clear. Bio-diesel and SVO are not the same thing.
Angus mechanical pumped engines are much more tolerant of varying fuel quality than electronic ones.
Lard is animal fat, the oil you use can contain no animal fat, it has to be 100% vegetable. Animal fat can be used to make bio , but it is a more complex process.
Boxboy you are incorrect bio and svo are both cleaner than dino diesel. There is no sulphur emissions, CO is greatly reduced, as are hydrocarbons. Particulate in the exhaust is significantly reduced, and it's made from a renewable resource. So how is it more of a pollutant than dino?
Check it out here, they even have a link to the EPA study on bio.
http://www.biodiesel.org/pdf_files/fuelfactsheets/emissions.PDF
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Angus just for my own curiosity, what do you want to use this engine for? Is it going to be used for transportation, or as a stationary engine like a generator, or on a piece of machinery like a tractor?
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Thank you guys!
It's my little tractor for starters, for light jobs like picking up round-bales, pulling light harrows or wagons etc. All within the farmland, or more like 90%. I have a project installing another one for about the same, that is the Zetor. The Zetor is crude, but surprisingly reliable.
These are 47 hp engines. Pretty simple all together, but continuous light use (sometimes heavier but never intensive) will suck up nice amounts of expensive fuel.
There is quite some running using very little power, and just some 1800 RPM at most.
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could be, its been awhile since I read or saw it. Didnt the govt try to fine Willie Nelson over bio fuels?
btw been meaning to tell you my son is at Sheppard now, tech school for avionics, he goes to Cannon in July
Dunno about Willie Nelson... I thought he only got in trouble over pot, but that was a while ago.
Congrats to your son on making it to tech school! I hope he manages to keep focused on his training. There are lots of trainees at Sheppard, meaning there are lots of excuses and opportunities to do something dumb.
Some things to not do at Sheppard while at tech school:
Don't get some girl pregnant
Don't get married
Don't buy a new car
Don't buy a new motorcycle
Don't assault the security forces troops
Don't murder an enlisted girl in the dorms
Don't do drugs and then assault the cop who catches you, even if the crowd cheers you on
Don't participate in the dorm orgies
Don't go to the off-limits clubs even during a weeknight when you're SURE nobody is watching
Don't drink and drive
Don't drink if you're underage
Don't drink underage and then drive on base
Don't drink underage on base and then try to drive off base
Don't drink underage, drive off base, then try to drive back on base to pick up another drunk underage airman
As I said, I hope he keeps focused :)
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Don't murder an enlisted girl in the dorms
:huh :O :huh
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Dunno about Willie Nelson... I thought he only got in trouble over pot, but that was a while ago.
Congrats to your son on making it to tech school! I hope he manages to keep focused on his training. There are lots of trainees at Sheppard, meaning there are lots of excuses and opportunities to do something dumb.
Some things to not do at Sheppard while at tech school:
Don't get some girl pregnant
Don't get married
Don't buy a new car
Don't buy a new motorcycle
Don't assault the security forces troops
Don't murder an enlisted girl in the dorms
Don't do drugs and then assault the cop who catches you, even if the crowd cheers you on
Don't participate in the dorm orgies
Don't go to the off-limits clubs even during a weeknight when you're SURE nobody is watching
Don't drink and drive
Don't drink if you're underage
Don't drink underage and then drive on base
Don't drink underage on base and then try to drive off base
Don't drink underage, drive off base, then try to drive back on base to pick up another drunk underage airman
As I said, I hope he keeps focused :)
Umm Eagler was that like a checklist of past mistakes or.. ? :O :aok
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Checked out the nearest burger place today.
Turns out that the guy who is in charge already has had his car running on the stuff for quite a while.
He filters it through cotton and mixes 50% with mineral oil (not sure if I have the right word, but it smells like jet fuel if you know what I mean).
No problems at all so far...
He is ready to team up for gather and processing. Nice guy ;)
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Good luck Angus. :aok
Let us know how you make out.
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Will do ;)
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http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel.html
read this, has several pages of info for DIY biodiesel. read everything.
keep in mind some of the stuff you need are dangerous, heed all warnings and such.
poisonous, flammable possibly explosive, corrosive, etc. be safe and use protective equipment and do it all in a secure area safely away from anything you might not want to lose due to fire, explosions, etc.
when safely done it can be rewarding, just be aware of the dangers.
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A little update.
I will be getting my first 100 litres or so at the end of next week. I will then both follow the recipe from top gear and instantly try out a cocktail which I have in mind.
Until then, I am going to be testing out some ways to filter the oil. Just need a pint for that ;)
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Hello all.
Started running an engine on my cocktail of oils yesterday.
It's well filtered frying oil mixed with diesel and mineral oil(petroleum diesel, - not sure of the english word but it smells like kerosene)
Runs fine, starts fine, and the exhaust smells a tad like KFC.
So far so good. I'll keep you guys updated, and as soon as I find the time, I will give my formula ;)
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My friends have a small bio-diesel business. It had relatively small start-up costs, and they seem to make enough money to keep driving around to fast food chains for oil every week.
If you invest some research and go to a few auctions, you could fairly easily make your own, so long as you don't mind your garage/basement looking like some sort of meth lab :)
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I am using mostly the gear from my days as a dairy farmer. Filters, buckets and eventually a 1000 ltr tank.
I use some 30% in the blend and the only difference I feel is the engine running smoother and delivering more power.
I did filter the oil quite a lot, and this business makes a whole sea of mess, so that's what I'm working on now.