Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: BaldEagl on May 02, 2009, 10:57:58 AM
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Was online last night for the first time in a week or so and got into a good fight (2 of 3 last night were good one-on-ones) with me in a Spixteen against a Seafire (the other good fight was me in a Temp vs. a Ta-152).
So anyway, this fight had been going on for about 5 minutes. We ended up slightly seperated and as we both came around I had the opportunity to take a HO shot, which I did. It's not like it was an opening merge or that we had 1.5K seperation or anything but there was some seperation.
The pilot ended up ditching safely denying me the kill. He then posted something about HOing on 200 to which I PM'd him my response which lead to a heated exchange of name calling which led to a trip to the DA where we had five really fun fights. <S> dude... any time you want to do that again let me know.
Now my question is; after 5 minutes of jostling would you have taken the HO shot?
I've always played that after the merge anything goes.
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Probably not. Especially not if it's an uninterrupted 1:1. And then there's the blurry line on what is or isn't a HO. Every fight is different. You have to strike the right balance between giving and taking to make it a fun fight.. Which is probably what HOing/not HOing boils down to.
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If your dueling 1v1 i think any shooting while head on is lame......
What normmaly happens is both come around for another merge... the guy who breaks first gets a face full and the other guy always says "deflection"...
So say technically its not a ho... ITs a dirty way to 1v1.
Its more of lets fly around in circles and play chicken......
The truth is the guy that face shoots only does so out of desperation.....IMO
<S>
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If I knew that would be the only advantage I would have that fight, yes (if I was losing the advantage, per say)...but otherwise if the pilot was poorer and I knew I could defeat him later, I would let it go on.
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After several minutes of a good fight you develop a certain mutual respect for each other(Hopefully). You know however it ends you will be saluting and saying great fight. A good fight and and the following mutual <S> salutes is what I enjoy in this game. I wouldn't want to ruin the salutes by a questionable play especially after 5min.
While in the DA did opportunities for HO shot's come up and did you continue to take them? I couldn't imagine take HO shots at each other at every immelman, the fight would never develop.
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Now my question is; after 5 minutes of jostling would you have taken the HO shot?
Simple answer: No
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Simple answer: No
agreed....
If I knew that would be the only advantage I would have that fight, yes (if I was losing the advantage, per say)...but otherwise if the pilot was poorer and I knew I could defeat him later, I would let it go on.
As far as I'm concerned the is NEVER a reason to HO. Sorry Spikes that post was about as lame as you can get.
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If I'm just gonna HO a guy I might as well just level out and let him shoot me while I'm flying straight.
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While in the DA did opportunities for HO shot's come up and did you continue to take them?
No although there were some forward deflections. He accused me of one HO in the DA but what I saw was a top profile and I raked him nose to tail across the top of the fuselage.
The DA fights were fun. We matched up in Ki-84's, Spit V's, Yak9-T's, FW190A-5's and Ki-61's. I won 3 and augered on the other 2 but they were all good long fights except the Ki-61's where I blacked out early trying to pull hard to avoid a canyon wall.
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Now my question is; after 5 minutes of jostling would you have taken the HO shot?
I've always played that after the merge anything goes.
No. Not in a duel.
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Yer a HO. all the excuses in the world won't change it.
Ren
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If I have a HO opportunity usually means they have one too. I for some reason have horrible luck and lose. So i avoid HOs for my sake not his...
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I've learned the hard way, anytime your in a fight and you end up "in maneuvering" nose to nose take the shot because if you don't you will end up on the short end (your opponent will take the shot) of that merge most of the time. :salute
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After several minutes of a good fight you develop a certain mutual respect for each other(Hopefully). You know however it ends you will be saluting and saying great fight. A good fight and and the following mutual <S> salutes is what I enjoy in this game. I wouldn't want to ruin the salutes by a questionable play especially after 5min.
While in the DA did opportunities for HO shot's come up and did you continue to take them? I couldn't imagine take HO shots at each other at every immelman, the fight would never develop.
Most fights don't go 5mins, so I wouldn't of taken the shot. But I wouldn't go on 200 crying HO either. 5 min fight should end with a salute.
but I've taken a ho shot before so my hands aren't clean either. Guess its just the fight mode your in.
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Tough tough call. I mean the fog of war and all. I cannot count the times I have tried to avoid the HO, only to expose myself even more to the HO. To me, all in a days gaming.
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If I end up into an HO position for some reason and decide to continue on that cource, I will not save my bullets and I do expect to get fired at as well.
If I dont want to get fired at, I will evade from HO cource.
If it is just a quick moment, I'll probably squeeze the trigger if I am quick enougth to react to it.
IMO, HO is just a more risky shooting position. Nothing else. Shoot or dont shoot... just dont whine about the result.
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Was online last night for the first time in a week or so and got into a good fight (2 of 3 last night were good one-on-ones) with me in a Spixteen against a Seafire (the other good fight was me in a Temp vs. a Ta-152).
So anyway, this fight had been going on for about 5 minutes. We ended up slightly seperated and as we both came around I had the opportunity to take a HO shot, which I did. It's not like it was an opening merge or that we had 1.5K seperation or anything but there was some seperation.
The pilot ended up ditching safely denying me the kill. He then posted something about HOing on 200 to which I PM'd him my response which lead to a heated exchange of name calling which led to a trip to the DA where we had five really fun fights. <S> dude... any time you want to do that again let me know.
Now my question is; after 5 minutes of jostling would you have taken the HO shot?
I've always played that after the merge anything goes.
No.
A ho is a ho no matter when it occurs. Why ruin a good fight. The only time a ho may be acceptable in my book is when you are greatly out numbered.
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DISCLAIMER: I will no longer address this question as no matter what I say, it will be misconstrued.
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when i played i tried to avoid the shot, didnt always have the chance to, or the time, but i tried. many times i fired first, but i tried to let the other person fire first. after 5 minutes i wouldnt have taken the shot personally, but that could also have depended on if he had buddies within 6K or not, my E compared to what i thought his E was, etc. etc.
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Its fairly easy to learn how do dodge most HO shots. In general I don't mind when a guy goes for the HO shot most times because I've already started turning for his six while he is spraying wildly at me and I know he will soon be dead.
When a guy doesn't take the HO shot who could have, he has my instant respect(whatever its worth) no matter the outcome. The best dogfights I've had with the better players do not involve any HO shots, the worst ones involve HO shots.
That being said, when I'm flying an IL2 for base defense and going after vulchers and hordes, the HO light will be on.
*Hint* If you haven't figured it out yet(lol). Don't HO an IL2 because their cannon are devastating and very accurate as well as being a heavily armored plane. I'm always amused when I'm in a Ho'ing match with an IL2 vs A6M.
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Its fairly easy to learn how do dodge most HO shots. In general I don't mind when a guy goes for the HO shot most times because I've already started turning for his six while he is spraying wildly at me and I know he will soon be dead.
When a guy doesn't take the HO shot who could have, he has my instant respect(whatever its worth) no matter the outcome. The best dogfights I've had with the better players do not involve any HO shots, the worst ones involve HO shots.
That being said, when I'm flying an IL2 for base defense and going after vulchers and hordes, the HO light will be on.
*Hint* If you haven't figured it out yet(lol). Don't HO an IL2 because their cannon are devastating and very accurate as well as being a heavily armored plane. I'm always amused when I'm in a Ho'ing match with an IL2 vs A6M.
Yeah...what I find amusing is when I fly straight and level, and some guy comes in to my high 12 and sprays from 1.5K out to try and kill me...and dosen't even get a ping. It's not half as funny in text form.
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I fly by one rule (or try to) with regard to HO's in the MA: If the other guy goes for the shot, I evade. If he evades, I go for the shot.
Seems to work pretty well.
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I fly by one rule (or try to) with regard to HO's in the MA: If the other guy goes for the shot, I evade. If he evades, I go for the shot.
Seems to work pretty well.
Hmm.. So you're a HO'er then.. and where is the part of trying to get on his six? What do you do when he doesn't shoot or evade, ram each other?
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NO
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I still contend the fella taking the HO shot is already conceding that your better than he is. Otherwise he'd try to fight instead.
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It depends on the situation.
If it's a straightforward no-frills merge, even if we've been fighting a while I'll avoid him - I may still be distinctly mediocre but I've learned enough to know he's giving me an advantage by trying to HO when he should be thinking about where he's going to be and what he's going to do after the merge, and I'll be giving HIM one if I'm the one trying the HO. I figure I can avoid at least 80% of those and that's a lot better chance than I have playing chicken (but then, I'm not Ben Affleck).
If we're maneuvering hard and I see I will have a very fleeting shot, altering my maneuver to evade will put me in a worse position, and the maneuver I'm in will pull me off him long before we collide, I'll take it even though it's low percentage. I'm not going to put myself in a worse position just because some guy thinks a HO is dishonorable. But usually those HOs can still be avoided and I'll try that if it looks practical.
If I think I have a much better shot than he has, I'll take it. If I'm going to be around on him a full second before he's around on me, heck yeah, I'll take the shot. Technically a HO because he's facing more or less at me and our flight paths will intersect if no one turns, but I know I can hit him (even I don't miss a shot like that very often), kill him, and evade the wreckage, so why not take it?
Just tonight I roped a guy and didn't have quite as much e as I should have, started turning over the top while he was still facing up, but he was shooting and I could see he was wobbling and a split second from stalling and there was no way he had enough control to get his guns on me. So I pulled on over, pointed straight down at him, blew his wing off as he was stalling, and flew past him on the way down. Again, technically a HO, but I knew he almost certainly couldn't hit me or ram me, so why not take it?
If I'm in a Jug and in front of a Lanc, damn straight I'll HO him. I have 8 .50s to his 2 .303s (if I approach from low), he has a glass nose, I'm probably above my base in case he hits my radiator, and he won't be maneuvering so I know I can avoid ramming him. It's a decent percentage shot, take it.
If it's one giant 30-plane furball and I don't think he sees me I'll take it, but just a quick burst and pull off quick (the opposite direction of his thrust vector, if possible) to avoid the ram without waiting to see if I kill him. In a fight like that, you take any shot that comes to you. I'm not going to be reengaging that guy after the merge regardless, we'll both have other worries long before that happens. If I hit him, what the heck, I may get a kill 5 minutes later when his wounded pilot crashes or his oil runs out. If not, I've lost nothing.
The point is that the reason a HO is considered lame is because it's just a roll of the dice and the odds are high neither of you will survive it. If for whatever reason that's not the case and you have a much better shot and a relatively low risk of colliding or being shot, even if you are or will shortly be more or less facing each other, I don't see why there's anything wrong with taking it. There's no 11th Commandment pasted under my gunsight saying "Thou shalt not shoot anyone in the schnoz." And if he whines about it, whatever. Sure, sometimes you'll miscalculate. So what? There's always *some* luck involved.
That's me, anyway. YMMV
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agreed :aok
everyone seems so precious about the HO thing, maybe if the DA merge rule was more sensible (co-alt til icon range then do whatever you want) people would be more prepared for it in the MAs.
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It depends on the situation.
Ok, reread 1st post to see situation below..
Was online last night for the first time in a week or so and got into a good fight (2 of 3 last night were good one-on-ones) with me in a Spixteen against a Seafire (the other good fight was me in a Temp vs. a Ta-152).
So anyway, this fight had been going on for about 5 minutes. We ended up slightly seperated and as we both came around I had the opportunity to take a HO shot, which I did. It's not like it was an opening merge or that we had 1.5K seperation or anything but there was some seperation.
The pilot ended up ditching safely denying me the kill. He then posted something about HOing on 200 to which I PM'd him my response which lead to a heated exchange of name calling which led to a trip to the DA where we had five really fun fights. <S> dude... any time you want to do that again let me know.
Now my question is; after 5 minutes of jostling would you have taken the HO shot?
I've always played that after the merge anything goes.
Didn't see that he was head on against bombers or involved in any 30 plane gang trying to HO the only red guy. I'm sure there are more excuses to HO than listed earlier like..
-What if the guy is better than me, I'm gonna HO him since that will be the only time he is near my gunsights and since I suck and refuse to try and improve my ACM I better HO everybody. Any move after the HO I will be placing myself in a worse position so I will take HO shot, right?
-What if you're part of a huge hoard and there is only one enemy plane and you know that if you don't HO the only red guy, you're not gonna get the kill because you're buddies will get him and you won't have any kills..
-What if you just get shot down and your plane is blown in two but the little front part of your plane does a quick 180 and is now facing the guy that just blasted you? That's a legitimate shot isn't it because you will be dead soon anyways..better yet, hold keep firing all the way down hoping you'll get somebody especially if picking isn't going all that well that night.
-If I'm eating Cheetos and my hand is all greasy and my finger slips on the trigger on a merge, that's a valid excuse isn't it.
-What if I think the guy is about to HO shot me first? Gonna take shot to get him before he gets me.
-How about if you're flying a N1K or spit16 you should always HO right?
-If a guy is whining about something on 200 isn't that reason enough for a HO shot?
IMO players should treat other with more respect than with a 2 second dogfight starting and ended in a HO shot. Let it play out and twist and turn, roll and spin for a minute or two, maybe 5 if you're really lucky to get such an engagement.
Does there really need to be a written rule or commandment to understand this concept?? If anyone would like some practice with dodging a HO shot, let me know and we can go to the TA or contact a trainer or squaddy.
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Simple answer: No
When in doubt the answer is no...
Where I have an issue with this is in a fight between dissimilar plane types or where the bogey chose a tactic that forced a defensive response and then ignored a requirement to avoid presenting a shot. I don't know if I still have the film but I posted a clip (and pic) on the BBS after being accused of a "HO". I was "bounced by a +E la-7 while in a B pony. I was on climb out from base and he came in with both alt and E...leading to a "merge" that really was a series of looping +E attacks. I couldn't run (not that I wanted to), couldn't get up out of his wheelhouse do to E differential....so I was locked into -E angles defense looking to manufacture a shot. Now this certainly qualified as a "dog fight" and went on for a bit...but it wasn't an even start or a "duel".
I wore him down a bit till he had to either regroup or force the fight. As he kept cutting back in slashing hi yoyo type attacks I finally sat on the move and went "all in"...he ignored my positioning and I popped him in the canopy....." :furious :furious HO :furious :furious HO :furious PPPPPP"
Now to me the reality is it was a fun fight but one he completely controlled. I had to live thru 10 or more attacks where he fired guns to get one shot, that he had every opportunity to avoid in a scenario where he had a plane with every advantage (in that instance)...IMO he has to respect my shot window or take his chances flying thru it.
If you look at the pic you can see flap setting and out of plane....I was literally hanging on the prop nose up inside his turn radius waiting on him as he came back around after missing his last pass. This is a reverse IMO and not a HO...he needed to extend not continue to pull back into my flight path.
(http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/canopyshot.jpg)
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Hmm.. So you're a HO'er then.. and where is the part of trying to get on his six? What do you do when he doesn't shoot or evade, ram each other?
Hmm.. So you're a Coward then? You only appreciate sneaking from behind and taking no risk shots? :rolleyes: :P
You are obviously misinterpreting the concept of "going for a shot". Read it as "pointing guns at the enemy" and you may get it. There is no use of pointing guns at the enemy if you are not going to shoot.
Die Hard's rule would quite effectively prevent all HO's from happening.
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No.
A ho is a ho no matter when it occurs. Why ruin a good fight. The only time a ho may be acceptable in my book is when you are greatly out numbered.
Your a HO then... IMO, if your gunna take HO shots at all dont complain if its in a 1v1 or not. I personally dont HO at all even in the biggest gangbangs, also these so called "hot merges" I personally think people shouldnt shoot at someone who stumbles near their gunsights while being chased by other planes, when you have someone on your six your only task at the time should be setting them up for someone else to kill(if thats how you play) or moving out of the enemies sights to set up an overshoot or a possible reverse :salute
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Your a HO then...
Is that even english? :huh
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Is that even english? :huh
No LOL. It's Junkish! :lol
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Have Guns, Will shoot - No WHINERS!
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Your a HO then... IMO, if your gunna take HO shots at all dont complain if its in a 1v1 or not. I personally dont HO at all even in the biggest gangbangs, also these so called "hot merges" I personally think people shouldnt shoot at someone who stumbles near their gunsights while being chased by other planes, when you have someone on your six your only task at the time should be setting them up for someone else to kill(if thats how you play) or moving out of the enemies sights to set up an overshoot or a possible reverse :salute
LOL junky your wrong on so many levels. If 5 guys jump my low 38 and want to rumble fine.... but I'll take any shot I have in that case because they are already over the line. That is telling them that the 5 together may out fly me. Just as 1 vs 1 if one of them HOs they are saying the same. Two or 3 cons can often be dispensed with by just mixing them up. Heck in LW arenas you can pretty much fly a goon and get kills. There are a lot of very green individuals in those numbers.
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whatever the deal.....Me and many others that have scolded those that HO are seeing the fruits of those that supported it all those years....HOing is prevelant these days...I logged on last night in Blue and upped a base...I ran into 4 cons...all of them went straight for the HO everytime....even when I dodged them, their next pass was HO.....might as well be Aces Joust! :rolleyes:
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That must be a record... U can HO with 4 planes at the same time? :)
Or maybe you mean that you turned right into their faces every time one of them came at you? (= you HOed them all every time)
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I don't use the Ho as part of my gameplay, mainly because it feels like an act of disrespect. When I sit down at my computer and log on to a map I am looking for some good fights with real people who just sat down at their computer and did the same thing. If I wanted to shoot fish in a barrel I would use CFS 3 with the AI set to Rookie. Last night however I HO'd a Rook, and he was not happy. I was after some B17's that were flying around the map blowing up VH's and Radar. I upped a Yak9T and climbed to 16,000, I ended up just above the cloud level with the 17's just below. I got the timing just right and broke the cloud layer at max speed just ahead of the 17's (3 sets). I think most of of them were in F6. I used well aimed shots and set 4 of them on fire. I had 18 rounds left as I went up and over. I was setting up for a broadside attack on the tail ender. I set 2 more on fire and had 6 rounds left. Took a few hits this time and figured I would climb back though the clouds and head home, and watch my kills pop in the text bar. As I looked at the burning 17's I noticed a black dot moving fast towards me. I went to full power and turned towards the dot. When the icon popped I went yikes! I am at 16k in a yak 9t and there is a mad u4 corsair closing on me. I am completely out classed at this altitude it my yak and about to die. By this time I am pointing directly at him and he is flying straight at me. At d1000 he is still coming and I have 6 rounds left. I put the pip just above his cockpit and fired 2 rounds. He blew up and started with the hotard crap on 200. In this situation which of you guys would have fired and who would have not fired? and why?
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I would not have fired, because I would not have pointed my guns at him in the first place ... I would have been trying to run home with my kills :)
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i thought about that but the 17,s were still burning, no kills. and there is no way I could out run a u4. If i had not turned towards him when i did i would have had absolutely no chance. For what it is worth I did and do feel guilty of hoing, not a nice feeling.
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Why was he flying right at you in a superior plane?
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That must be a record... U can HO with 4 planes at the same time? :)
Or maybe you mean that you turned right into their faces every time one of them came at you? (= you HOed them all every time)
No, I mean I came off the end of the runway, nosed level to get a lil airspeed,and dodged 4 planes coming in at my 12 oclock high..throughout the next 30 to 60 seconds I dodged at least one more from each plane...not hard to understand if you have basic 5th grade reading comprehension skills. :aok
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No, I mean I came off the end of the runway, nosed level to get a lil airspeed,and dodged 4 planes coming in at my 12 oclock high..throughout the next 30 to 60 seconds I dodged at least one more from each plane...not hard to understand if you have basic 5th grade reading comprehension skills. :aok
The point is that you claimed having an HO with them each and every pass. Sounds like you had no gun solution to begin with :p
Had you HOed with them, you would have stalled after first or second HO, since they all came from "high 12 oc", right?
I suppose you are one of those who call every attack from your frontal hemisphere an HO :)
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Hello Skyrock,
Forgive me, but is'nt a twelve o'clock high approach on a con considered a deflection shot? <----Serious question.
:salute
Way
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Probably only the plane was superior.
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Didn't see that he was head on against bombers or involved in any 30 plane gang trying to HO the only red guy. I'm sure there are more excuses to HO than listed earlier like..
(snip)
Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending HOs the way you see them 90% of the time, just point plane at nearest nme and pull trigger til you ram him or run out of ammo. I was just saying that there are some circumstances where I think they're warranted. Some people seem to think that regardless of the circumstances if you're each within 30 degrees or so of facing each other it's dishonorable to take the shot.
humble, I'd take that shot in a heartbeat. I'd call it a deflection shot anyway, he's nowhere near having a guns solution on you, which as I understand it is the definition of a HO. He's just made 'cause he screwed up and he knows it. If he comes in with a big e advantage and can't manage to keep his plane from flying 100 yards directly in front of you, he's just asking for a face full of lead. He's got the initiative, it's HIS job to avoid your guns.
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Wow...so head-on, mutal-fire maneuvers aren't allowed anymore? :rock
I prefer to hit heavies head-on, as most gunners can't figure out the forward deflection rate or the rate of merge. Is that dishonorable? Oh wait, that was the Luftwaffe's primary means of bringing down heavy bombers during WW2... never mind.
The way I see it... If I'm merging on an aircraft, and he rolls out BEFORE 1K, I'll do the same and we'll party. If he doesn't, then I figure he plans to HO, move to evade, then rudder back hard to try and get a deflection.
It's pretty simple, if I get the opportunity to shoot, I'm going to shoot. Looking for honorable fights these days in the MA is like a needle in a haystack. So I just play to the law of averages.
What really ticks me off are blatant ramming attempts... If he's firing, ok, fine, I can deal with that by returning fire or evading. But it seems far more common these days, especially down low, to see players trying to ram head-on without firing a round. Stupid. What adds to that is if your wing is tore off and he flies merrily along.
Now, opposite side of the coin... I got into a major go-round with wrongway, he in a Yak and me in a Spit. It didn't last long, 2-3 minutes, was 2v1 (in his favor), but it was a great tangle. I threw every possible move I had to get away, and I knew he was working hard to get a shot. At the start, we both rolled out about 1K before the merge. We had a nice chat on PM afterwards.
Lets face facts guys - in the real world, Ho-tard pilots died. They didn't respawn, they were dead, pining-for-the-fiords expired, no more. The better pilots survived. Its kinda like passing a car on the highway...the other car could be a normal, safe driver, or he could be a complete loser who's about to crash head-on into you. You never know who you're going to get on the other end, and you've only got a split second to react once you make the determination as to his intentions. Better him than me...
J
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The point is that you claimed having an HO with them each and every pass. Sounds like you had no gun solution to begin with :p
Had you HOed with them, you would have stalled after first or second HO, since they all came from "high 12 oc", right?
I suppose you are one of those who call every attack from your frontal hemisphere an HO :)
again, sorry for your lack of understanding, I could have pulled shots on each of them...but by doing so, I would have lost speed and detracted from my objective....which was to gain enough speed for manuvers...they were higher than me about 1-2K but instead of them pulling up and rolling in behind, they all went for HO shots....dont know how much clearer I could be on that with you. Not going to reply to you any further, your defense of the HO along with others is why we see 95% of the community going for the HO instead of making a fight out of it...now.....carry on being a putz. :rolleyes:
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Was online last night for the first time in a week or so and got into a good fight (2 of 3 last night were good one-on-ones) with me in a Spixteen against a Seafire (the other good fight was me in a Temp vs. a Ta-152).
So anyway, this fight had been going on for about 5 minutes. We ended up slightly seperated and as we both came around I had the opportunity to take a HO shot, which I did. It's not like it was an opening merge or that we had 1.5K seperation or anything but there was some seperation.
The pilot ended up ditching safely denying me the kill. He then posted something about HOing on 200 to which I PM'd him my response which lead to a heated exchange of name calling which led to a trip to the DA where we had five really fun fights. <S> dude... any time you want to do that again let me know.
Now my question is; after 5 minutes of jostling would you have taken the HO shot?
I've always played that after the merge anything goes.
no, never
and IN!!
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Hmm.. So you're a Coward then?
Hmm.. Blauk, are you serious with the disrespectful, uncalled for name calling? What is Aces High CM Staff? Is that supposed to be a position of respect or responsibility?
You only appreciate sneaking from behind and taking no risk shots? :rolleyes: :P
You think and call ACM to get on another guys 6, as sneaking? :rolleyes:
You are obviously misinterpreting the concept of "going for a shot". Read it as "pointing guns at the enemy" and you may get it. There is no use of pointing guns at the enemy if you are not going to shoot.
It's called a MERGE dude. Your logic is flawed here. So what your saying is there is no point to merge unless you are shooting as you're merging since your "pointing guns at the enemy"? :rolleyes:
Keep on arguing that HO'ing is valid and wonderful. Maybe you can convince even more newbs into HO'ing since you're a Aces High CM Staff member. :rofl
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depends if there was any other threats around that wanted my scalp :salute
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humble, I'd take that shot in a heartbeat. I'd call it a deflection shot anyway, he's nowhere near having a guns solution on you, which as I understand it is the definition of a HO. He's just made 'cause he screwed up and he knows it. If he comes in with a big e advantage and can't manage to keep his plane from flying 100 yards directly in front of you, he's just asking for a face full of lead. He's got the initiative, it's HIS job to avoid your guns.
I try and stay out of these since generically I agree with the "no HO ever" policy, however to me that caveat has certain assumptions attached. My goal is to win whatever 1 on 1 encounter that I'm engaged in. Normally establishing a position in the others guys rear hemisphere is the best way to do that. In fact anything else increases the possibility of taking instead of giving lead. I've never heard of a guy being HO'd by someone he's behind. Traditionally these "HO issues" are tied to shots on the 2nd or 3rd "merge" were one player feels he was neutral in position and passed on a shot opportunity only to have the other player take the equivalent shot.
Once a fight degenerates or in my case was never "even" then things are less clear. In the case this still came from I was never in any position to control the fight. In effect I had to manufacture a brief snapshot window from an inferior position by disquising my intentions and then taking a significant risk. We all know that a hanging topped out foe is the easiest target...look at the pick, you can just see the edge of the flap indicator...I'm nose up hanging the prop on 3 notches of flap to claw up and inside his pass and then letting the plane fall off to get that snapshot.
So I had to manufacture a shot and totally expose myself if I missed or if he had simply spiral climbed and rolled over on me as I stalled out. To me in the end you need to respect the ACM on both sides. If both guys are flying s good fight then a HO is just flat out wrong....but in a fight with one plane clearly superior in position or performance that pilot has to accept and respect that the other pilot operating from a disadvantage will be more pressed to seize and exploit any momentary advantage he can. In effect the "superior" pilot {by plane or position} has to protect and preserve that superiority. Allowing the other guy a 50/50 shot is really bad ACM IMO.
Now this is totally different then a HO in a fight that started "even" or in a position of numerical superiority...
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What about in an out numbered situation, if it were me out numbered I think I would take every offensive shot that presented itself and if I'm with the side with superior numbers I wouldn't blame the guy if he hit me in a frontal attack.
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Again I think that ideally you want to avoid trading lead. when your outnumbered you need to defend vs multiple cons. that means your SA is split and you cant maintain accurate tally or position all the time. Turning away from 1 plane often exposes you to a frontal approach from another. I've held fire more then once only to get hosed...but also opened up and regretted it when I blasted the original con who was trying to "fight fair" when I thought it was a late arriving picktard.
The other factor is positioning, I cant tell you the number of times a guy comes in with 5k of alt of more and bounces 2-3 low cons and gets shot down....then whines on 200 he got "ganged". If you've got alt & E then numbers aren't relevant...
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I could have pulled shots on each of them...but by doing so, I would have lost speed and detracted from my objective....which was to gain enough speed for manuvers...they were higher than me about 1-2K
So you had no HOs with any of them, thus they had no HOs with you. Still you insist they HOed you. Go figure :rofl
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You think and call ACM to get on another guys 6, as sneaking?
My sarcasm may be too difficult to understand. I apologize for that.
Is it not funny how shooting from behind and shooting from front can be seen so different in a cartoon airplanes' game and in a pistol shoot-out? :) Courage and Cowardice concepts get twisted around.... or do they?
It's called a MERGE dude. Your logic is flawed here. So what your saying is there is no point to merge unless you are shooting as you're merging since your "pointing guns at the enemy"? :rolleyes:
Pointing one's guns at the enemy is not the only merge! HO is not the only merge!
Pointing guns at the enemy is not same as flying to his general direction and avoiding a HO! That is what you seemed to miss in "Die Hard's rule" when you claim him a HOer.
My POINT is that lots of people talk about "HO this", "HO that" in lots of cases where there are no HOs at all. It is not a HO shot if the enemy cannot shoot you back at the same moment when you can shoot at him!
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I have previously asked: "Who is the HOer... the one who is first targeting the enemy or the other who turns to face the incoming enemy?"
I claim that the first guy never goes for an HO, or wishes an HO. He simply goes in for a shot. It is the latter who HOs intentionally... and in some cases attack just is the best defense. Hos happen, let's live with it and stop whining.
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It is not a HO shot if the enemy cannot shoot you back at the same moment when you can shoot at him!
I do not see you advocating a HO shot in your posts, and I wholeheartedly concur on your definition. You are merely standing by your definition of what a HO shot is. If there is no chance of you pulling the trigger and hitting my plane, and I can pull the trigger and hit yours, then this is not a HO.
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My sarcasm may be too difficult to understand. I apologize for that.
Is it not funny how shooting from behind and shooting from front can be seen so different in a cartoon airplanes' game and in a pistol shoot-out? :) Courage and Cowardice concepts get twisted around.... or do they?
Thank you. :)
I think the comparison between a pistol shootout and cartoon airplane fighting is amusing. I imagine you mean an old American western style shootout. To be 'similar' the pistol shootout would involve both parties having their arms locked out forward in a splint or cast just like the cartoon airmen w/.45s.
Pointing one's guns at the enemy is not the only merge! HO is not the only merge!
Pointing guns at the enemy is not same as flying to his general direction and avoiding a HO! That is what you seemed to miss in "Die Hard's rule" when you claim him a HOer.
My POINT is that lots of people talk about "HO this", "HO that" in lots of cases where there are no HOs at all. It is not a HO shot if the enemy cannot shoot you back at the same moment when you can shoot at him!
I understand the basic concepts of a HO and other types of merges. Haven't heard of "Die Hard's rule". I think most of us understand the difference between between a "lame" type HO shot(Which I believe this post is about) and an "ACM" HO shot(If you will)
Not sure why you're using exclamation points....!! Are you yelling out your point or has it's value diminished and now used as a period in your arguments.? All that yelling is gonna give you a sore finger.
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Strong,
I have been all the time talking about his post in this thread:
I fly by one rule (or try to) with regard to HO's in the MA: If the other guy goes for the shot, I evade. If he evades, I go for the shot.
Seems to work pretty well.
Which you obviously misinterpreted and answered by calling him a HOer:
Hmm.. So you're a HO'er then.. and where is the part of trying to get on his six? What do you do when he doesn't shoot or evade, ram each other?
I use "!" for emphasizing my points.
On BBS:s THE CAPITAL LETTERS are usually interpreted AS _SHOUTING_ :)
I have no understanding of a "lame HO shot".
I pretty much only recognize a good HO (where the HOer has less to lose than the enemy, or even nothing to lose at all) and an unnecessary HO (where other better options were available).
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I am at 16k in a yak 9t and there is a mad u4 corsair closing on me. I am completely out classed at this altitude it my yak and about to die. By this time I am pointing directly at him and he is flying straight at me. At d1000 he is still coming and I have 6 rounds left. I put the pip just above his cockpit and fired 2 rounds. He blew up and started with the hotard crap on 200. In this situation which of you guys would have fired and who would have not fired? and why?
I would have passed on that one. All you had to do was evade on the merge then dive out. By the time he came around you'd have big seperation at which point you could decide what to do next. It sounds like from 17K as long as the air was clear below you you could have taken it to the deck and he may not have even followed.
BTW, the 9T is a good dogfighter. I was having big fun in one the other night, 1 vs 1, 9T vs 9T but the other guy was hugging flakpanzers the whole time and one of them finally got me after 2-3 minutes.
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No. there is something beautiful about that 37mm on the Yak. A head on shot with that gun, especially a long shot with high closure, is simply too good to pass up on.
Whenever I am within 4000 yards of a red Yak9T I am very tuned in to the fact that insta-tower travel is just a trigger tap away.
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what amazes me is the amount of people in the game that will take on a 110 nose to nose :confused:, it never ends pretty........and I always go ouch!, that was ugly... :uhoh
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BTW, the 9T is a good dogfighter. I was having big fun in one the other night, 1 vs 1, 9T vs 9T but the other guy was hugging flakpanzers the whole time and one of them finally got me after 2-3 minutes.
One of my favourite A2G sorties is with the Yak9T vrs Flaks. I approach from a distance, below the tree tops...with preknowledge of where the flakers are. They almost never look level...always looking up. Just two or three pops with the cannon and they are neutered, belching smoke. Usually get the kill once they are tagged or tower out.
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Well strong, and blauk. ty for the amusment and different style of game play. My guess is considering you guys are on at different times. Means, possibly a small variation in game style. I'm not ankle humping anyone of you like some in this thread. its just IMO. I try to fly most of the selective planes so I know what their like. For blauk, agree with you. If someones wants to ho a 109k4 hehe. And strong, if the only thing the guy knows is to go nose on well you know. take it easy strong these threads are measured in horse manure. again my opinion. hehe :D
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was thinking about this thread (and RL 190 tactics) last night while climbing out in a 190A8, and decided for just one sortie to fly very aggressively and have the HO as a primary ACM option, rather than just a last resort. encounters are noticeably different with this mindset.
the one thing which stood out is that most players seem to leave themselves open to the HO, perhaps because they assume that most players wont be trying for it. in several cases the enemy cons would have been ok if they had chosen a much more defensive approach, rather than a marginal chance of advantage which left them open to the HO. I could almost see them thinking "surely he wont..." put simply, they were using a DA style minimal separation merge and paid the price for it. of the 4 kills i landed, 3 were from pure HO shots, the other 3 cons I HOd had to rtb with engine hits and/or pws, which also allowed me to egress.
I imagine it caused a bit of moaning on rook ch, but overall a very enjoyable sortie. conclusions? 1. flying the occasional sortie with a completely different mindset is fun, variety is the spice of life. 2. the guns cold DA merge is completely artificial and doesnt do anyone any favours when it comes to flying in anything other than a 1v1 DA duel.
*runs for cover*
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Was online last night for the first time in a week or so and got into a good fight (2 of 3 last night were good one-on-ones) with me in a Spixteen against a Seafire (the other good fight was me in a Temp vs. a Ta-152).
So anyway, this fight had been going on for about 5 minutes. We ended up slightly seperated and as we both came around I had the opportunity to take a HO shot, which I did. It's not like it was an opening merge or that we had 1.5K seperation or anything but there was some seperation.
The pilot ended up ditching safely denying me the kill. He then posted something about HOing on 200 to which I PM'd him my response which lead to a heated exchange of name calling which led to a trip to the DA where we had five really fun fights. <S> dude... any time you want to do that again let me know.
Now my question is; after 5 minutes of jostling would you have taken the HO shot?
I've always played that after the merge anything goes.
For me it depends on the fight. I usually don't take the shot, and usually die that way too. If i'm in a slow turn fight with a spit and am about to die if I don't shoot him now...sure fire away. But as a rule I'd rather saddle-up and gets some scissors or something going.
We've all ran into guys that come in at ya headon every merge and won't use the better turning planes strengths. Alot of would-be "good fights" are spoiled that way. :)
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So is a HO sanctioned if you are head on, between your field and the pilot vulching it?
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So is a HO sanctioned if you are head on, between your field and the pilot vulching it?
I love when people vulch the fields at low angels, makes for pretty fireworks when they cross your sights.
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was thinking about this thread (and RL 190 tactics) last night while climbing out in a 190A8, and decided for just one sortie to fly very aggressively and have the HO as a primary ACM option
The 190A8 only ACM option is the HO shot. Whenever I encounter a 190 I know 2 things will occur: A HO shot and a disappearing act. But I do agree with you RTHolmes, change it up a little for some spice. You gotta fly that 190A8 like some kind of wrecking ball. Bring on the Ho'ing spit-tard, lol. :eek: